[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem

[howard posner]

> On Sep 8, 2020, at 3:18 AM, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> According to a source I cannot remember the Sonata lasted 55 minutes when 
> played by Liszt.

Liszt said something of the sort in a letter written 40 years after the 
performance Berlioz reviewed.

For all we know, he hadn’t played it in years and didn’t recall accurately. Or 
he took the fast movements slower as time went on. Or he took the slow 
movement, or the sections that don’t have metronome markings, more slowly.

And for all we know, Berlioz didn’t mean to say specifically that Liszt played 
at Beethoven’s indicated metronome markings, only that he didn’t play around 
with the tempo once he started. And even if he did, maybe Berlioz, sitting in a 
theater with the sheet music but without a metronome, couldn’t tell the 
difference between quarter note = 144 and quarter note =130. 

This all pretty much exemplifies the problems of discussing tempo in the 
pre-recording age.

I haven’t found any source saying Lizst was unable to play the sonata at the 
indicated tempi.





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[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem

[howard posner]

> On Sep 7, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> As an illustration see the incredible https://youtu.be/NmI_ALcEGUw

And so I learn that there really is a pianist named Vincenzo Maltempo. 



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[LUTE] Re: Off topic: The infamous metronome markings problem

[howard posner]

> On Sep 7, 2020, at 1:19 PM, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> Even List could not play the Hammerklavier Sonate at Beethoven's metronome 
> markings - if they are meant as they are today.

Hector Berlioz seems to indicate otherwise in an 1836 review of a Liszt concert 
in the La Revue et Gazette musicale de Paris:

"Liszt has explained the work in such a way that if the composer himself had 
returned from the grave, joy and pride would have swept over him. Not a note 
was left out, not one added (I followed the performance with the sheet music), 
not one alteration was made in the tempo that was not indicated in the text 
(….) It was the ideal performance of a work with the reputation of being 
unperformable. Liszt, 
in bringing back a work that was previously not understood has shown that he is 
a pianist of the future.”

This quote is from "Early Performances of Beethoven’s ‘Hammerklavier’ Sonata 
op. 106 in France and England” by Marten Noorduin:

https://www.ripm.org/cnc/?p=592

Here’s a different translation:

"A new Oedipus, Liszt, has solved it, solved it in such a way that had the 
composer himself returned from the grave, a paroxysm of joy and pride would 
have swept over him. Not a note was left out, not one added . . . no inflection 
was effaced, no change of tempo permitted. Liszt, in thus making comprehensible 
a work not yet comprehended, has proved that he is the pianist of the future."

I haven’t seen the original Berlioz article in French (and it wouldn’t do me 
much good if I did).

The real problem with Beethoven’s metronome marks is that they were ignored in 
the early 20th century, and by time the early music movement got to Beethoven 
there was a performance tradition going back a few generations, and zillions of 
recordings establishing an accepted range of tempi. Some of them worked even 
though they were ridiculously wrong as a matter of performance practice: the 
Allegretto second movement of the Seventh Symphony played as if it were a slow 
movement comes to mind.

If I’m not mistaken, the Hammerklavier was the only piano sonata Beethoven 
published with metronome marks.  There are far more of them in the orchestral 
works. Roger Norrington, in his recordings of the Beethoven orchestral works, 
adhered to the metronome markings, and often offers explanations of them in his 
written notes.





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[LUTE] Re: future of the lute

[howard posner]

> On Aug 27, 2020, at 8:58 AM, Is Milse Póg  wrote:
> 
>   I am a young amateur lute player (just 21), so I guess I am a part of
>   the next generation of players. I think the lute will continue to be
>   played for the foreseeable future, since there's always someone strange
>   enough to fall in love with the lute's music and sound, but it's sad to
>   see little to no young people in ancient music and classical music
>   concerts in general. Perhaps it has to do with the distance that has
>   grown between contemporary composers and the general population, the
>   former usually earning their bread through the academia. 

It has to do with classical music being a taste that listeners tend to acquire 
as they get older. Old listeners are replaced with lots of middle-aged 
listeners, and not so many young ones.

Alarms about the “graying of the classical audience” have been sounded for 
decades, and in the USA probably peaked in 1988. The general manager of the 
public classical music station in Los Angeles came back from the Audience 88 
conference that year convinced that classical music was dying and he had to 
wean the station away from it. He was gone within a year or so. The station was 
was playing Satie, Rossini and Beethoven this morning.

It reminds me of the line in the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy that the 
galactic emperor is “nearly dead and has been for centuries."




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[LUTE] Re: future of the lute

[howard posner]

> On Aug 26, 2020, at 6:38 PM, Richard Brook  
> wrote:
> 
> I note Henry VIII (source: Hilary Mantel) executed a lute player for sleeping 
> (so Henry claimed) with Anne Boleyn.

That would be Mark Smeaton; hence Theodore’s foreboding about a Smeaton-themed 
movie. But it has more or less happened already.  Smeaton was a significant 
character in The Tudors, a Netflix series that seems (as far as I could see 
from dropping in while my wife binge-watched it), to combine insight and 
outrageous nonsense in roughly equal measure.

Addressing the larger question, assuming the world rebounds well from Covid 
shutdown (a dicey proposition in the USA, I know) the lute should do just fine 
because ensembles and orchestras should be a steady source of professional 
gigs, and that area still seems to be growing.   Some responses here treat the 
lute as if it were just a vehicle for solo lute music, which was never the case 
except in the early days of the lute revival. 

> So things are looking up.
> 
> Dick Brook
> 
>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 8:13 PM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:
>> 
>>  Dear luters:
>>  What does the future hold the lute?
>>  In the waning days of this wonderful email list (Thanks Wayne!!), I
>>  thought I would invite thoughts regarding the future of the lute and
>>  the lute community. As I muse, it seems that this present lute revival
>>  started in 1960's - 70's largely out of the folk music revival and
>>  early music revival. I notice that many of our fellow lute enthusiasts
>>  are growing older (as am I). And with the recent passing of Julian
>>  Bream, I thought it prescient to reflect:
>>  What will the next 10, 20, or 50 years look like for the lute and lute
>>  community?
>>  Is interest in the lute on the decline, ascendency, or moving in some
>>  other direction?
>>  Is this trajectory different in different countries?
>>  The internet has revolutionized access to manuscripts, publishers, and
>>  recordings. Will the internet ultimately drive interest to diversions
>>  other than the lute?
>>  And when will Hollywood finally make a sizzling historical romance
>>  about a lute player and bring the lute back to be a symbol of
>>  seduction, as it should be? (Hopefully the movie won't be about Mark
>>  Smeaton.)
>>  Thoughts?
>>  theodore jordan
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Renaissance Music in Rock

[howard posner]

> On Aug 19, 2020, at 6:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> Yeah I wonder why it was dubbed progressive.
> 
> All the bands like Gentle Giant etc. were heavily influenced by
> Classical Music, mostly Baroque and Renaissance...

It was “progressive” because it moved away from the basic blues and pop 
foundation into more complex structures that featured the latest sound 
technology and more virtuosic performance. And it was also influenced by music 
that was still “modern” in the 1970’s. 

Emerson, Lake and Palmer’s first album featured reconceptions of works by 
Janacek and Bartok. The story goes that Keith Emerson was surprised to get 
phone call from Bartok’s widow reminding him that Allegro Barbaro was still 
under copyright and he owed royalties.  ELP later mined Copland, Holst, Rodrigo 
and Prokofiev for material.



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[LUTE] Re: Giononcelli

[howard posner]

There’s a Gianoncelli manuscript? Or do you mean engraved 1650 publication “Il 
Liuto”?

> On Jul 22, 2020, at 1:41 AM, Ed Durbrow  wrote:
> 
>  I have nice digital copies of the first suite in Giononcelli’s ms. I
>   don’t know where I got them. They are much better than my 40 year old
>   faded photocopies. [1]imslp.org is not helpful in this case. I must
>   have downloaded them from somewhere, but I cannot find where. Anyone?




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[LUTE] Re: Lute strap

[howard posner]

> On May 22, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Christopher Stetson 
>  wrote:
> 
>   Hi, all. I've been playing without a strap since 1974. It is possible.

Arthur: Ah. Look, the statue. How do get the cup bit to stay where it is, 
unsupported?

Wise Old Bird: It stays there because it’s artistically right.

Arthur: What?

WOB: The Law of Gravity isn’t as indiscriminate as people often think. You 
learn things like that when you’re a bird.

--Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (original radio script) Fit the Tenth 



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[LUTE] Re: Nigel concert

[howard posner]

> On May 18, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Daniel Shoskes  wrote:
> 
> OK, Nigel’s part isn’t live (there’s a full audience) but it’s still Weiss!

I looked around after the first WTF moment seeing all those real persons, and 
found this on the BLEMF website:

"To keep us all in the mood for live performances, Bloomington Early Music is 
thrilled to present an online festival with daily presentations via Facebook 
and YouTube Live! Please join us from May 17-24, each evening at 7pm (4pm on 
Saturday), as we celebrate a set of performances from a wide variety of artists 
and ensembles, most of whom have their artistic roots in Bloomington.” 

Pretty vague, but it sounds like they're telling us the festival is a 
collection of recorded performances from different times and places (fine with 
me; Youtube is Youtube), without actually saying so in as many words. 

And yes, it’s still Weiss.  And Nigel. And someday I’ll tell my grandchildren 
that I was there, at my desk, for the premier upload whatever of this concert. 
At least until I had to get off and go do something else, which is right now. 

And thanks to the good doctor for letting us know about the concert.


> On May 18, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Daniel Shoskes  wrote:
>> 
>>  For those of you who haven't heard, a live concert with Nigel North at
>>  the Bloomington Early Music Festival is starting now. Bach, Marais and
>>  Weiss
>> 
>>  [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCGAXl65QV8




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[LUTE] Re: Things to play in quarantine

[howard posner]

Very informative, thank you
> On Mar 24, 2020, at 11:41 AM, Bill Eisele  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately, the problem you're describing is caused by latency over the 
> internet.  So, teleconferencing apps like FaceTime, Zoom, and Skype won't 
> allow you to play with other musicians.  It will definitely sound like 
> cacophony as you described.  Here's a good article describing the problem:  
> https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/online-band-practices-possible/.
> 
> There are some workarounds for this in the form of certain apps and devices.  
> The problem is that if the app or device is intended to minimize latency and 
> the further you are away from the other musicians and the slower your 
> connection speeds, the more latency you will experience.  But it may be worth 
> a try in these difficult times to connect with others to play duets and 
> beyond.  Here are the apps listed in the article above:
> 
> https://www.jamkazam.com (a separate desktop device is recommended)
> 
> https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/ (this app doesn't appear to deal directly with 
> latency)
> 
> http://llcon.sourceforge.net (this app appears to upload individual musician 
> tracks, mixes them and then downloads the mixed result as a single track to 
> each collaborator)
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/eJamming-368668856036/ (their website doesn't seem 
> to be active)
> 
> I have only had limited experience with JamKazam without the recommended 
> device trying to play duets with a friend in our town and I quickly gave up 
> on it.  My internet speed is relatively slow so without the device I was 
> probably hindered in my ability to use the app.  It would be a good idea to 
> search on the internet to see how successful these apps are before spending 
> much time with any one of them.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Bill Eisele




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[LUTE] Re: Things to play in quarantine

[howard posner]

> On Mar 23, 2020, at 8:12 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> Each one with his/her phone.
> 
> Il 23/03/2020 16:11, Dr. Henner Kahlert ha scritto:
>> Wonderful! With which device did you manage to play and record this?

Could you share how you did it? 

Two days ago I tried to lead our small congregation in a virtual service using 
Zoom, and it was impossible to synchronize it. Even if our mouths were moving 
in unison, it was cacophony.



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[LUTE] Re: Realizing a passible continuo line...

[howard posner]

> On Feb 4, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Mark Probert  wrote:
> 
> Suppose I given a piece of early 
> Baroque music, take Monteverdi's duet "Ardo e scoprir"[1] by way of 
> specific example, and I want to create a passable continuo line to 
> support the singers (potentially with me singing one of lines). 
> 
> I come armed with my lute, an a-historic Dm 13c lute, a certain amount 
> of theory, but no real clue apart from "play the indicated root" and 
> "arpeggiate the triads”. 

Neither of those is necessarily a good idea, especially if by “play the 
indicated root” you mean assuming the bass note is the root of the chord. But 
if you know the basic rules (you’re familiar with the rule of the octave?) you 
can get most of the harmonies right without too much trouble.

> Given this is akin to asking "how do you realize a bass," can anyone 
> point me in the direction of how you start such a journey on a lute? 

If you want to learn how to do it, I’d start with Nigel North’s "Continuo 
Playing on the Lute, Archlute and Theorbo.” If you just want to slap something 
together for a specific piece, you might get a realized version (which will 
probably be intended for piano) and alter it to suit your needs. 

> And if the theory is much different using a Dm lute rather than theorbo?

The theory doesn’t change. A major chord is a major chord and a suspension is a 
suspension. You’ll have higher notes than a theorbo has, but less volume and 
sustain. Sometimes this means playing a busier accompaniment to keep the sound 
going (good luck with that if you’re singing at the same time).



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[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[howard posner]

> On Jan 9, 2020, at 6:51 PM, Antonio Corona  
> wrote:
> 
> it would be very tempting to identify the viola they mentions as a vihuela.

What else could it be?



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[LUTE] Re: Milan's name

[howard posner]

On Jan 5, 2020, at 5:19 PM, Antonio Corona  
wrote:

> Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan
> 
> Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan
> 
> Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan
> 
> Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan
> 
> Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan

So we can be fairly sure he wasn’t trying to escape creditors.

A couple of points relating to the underlying question:

Even if Milan’s family name came from the Italian city, it doesn’t mean he he 
had any practical ties to Italy. I speak as someone whose name means “from 
Posen” (or Poznan, when, as now, the city is within Poland), and I couldn’t 
tell you the first thing about the place (or maybe I just did, and I couldn’t 
tell the second thing about it), and I think many of you would find my 
ignorance about all things Polish truly impressive if I chose to display it.  
For all I know my ancestors were there as recently as 1900.

And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano?



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[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino

[howard posner]

> On Nov 17, 2019, at 8:47 AM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
> 
> I was offered a Tiorbino, and I'm wondering what one can do with it (except 
> of playing Bellerofonte-Castaldi): Are there any proofs that it was used for 
> playing solo instead of a big theorbo or for playing continuo?

Probably no “proofs,” but maybe you’re asking the wrong question. 

The question I would ask is, “If I owned a tiorbino in 1642, what would I do 
with it?"

Or for present purposes it might be better asked, “If the tiorbino wasn’t used 
for playing solo theorbo music and wasn’t used for continuo, why would anyone 
pay good money for one?” Even Bellerofonte Castaldi would have thought it 
pointless to have an instrument that was useful only for a few duets. 

I have no idea how many tiorbinos existed in the 17th century, but the idea 
that someone would have one and not use it for continuo or solo music makes no 
sense. Anyone who owned a tiorbino would have played solo music and continuo on 
it, because the alternative was keeping it in a closet 362 days out of the year.

It’s not clear to me what you mean by “I was offered a tiorbino,” but if 
someone wants to give it to you and you decide you don’t want it, give that 
person my email address and say I’d be happy to take it. 





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[LUTE] Re: Continuo (defined)

[Howard Posner]

The rhythm guitar and bass

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 12, 2019, at 14:02, Leonard Williams  
> wrote:
> 
>   If one is trying to explain the concept of continuo on theorbo to a
>   non-early music person, would it be safe to compare it to the rhythm
>   guitarist in a modern band?
>   Leonard Williams
> 
>   --
> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: The Lord my careful Shepherd is

[howard posner]

> On Sep 7, 2019, at 4:54 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> Yes, the fact that it may have
>   been written in at a later day was obvious and I was surprised you
>   overlooked the fact.  I'm just wondering why you mentioned this to the
>   list.

For the same reason Rainer often mentions things to the list: to increase the 
body of knowledge available to the lute world, enlarging the big picture, 
sometimes one pixel at a time. He didn’t overlook anything.

I lack Rainer’s gift for detail, but I am intrigued at the thought that a 
collection of music from around 1600 may still have been in use 80 or 90 years 
later, or that someone 80 or 90 years later was in desperate need of scratch 
paper to write down Psalm 23.





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[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[howard posner]

> On Aug 18, 2019, at 2:06 PM, David Van Edwards  wrote:
> 
> The Tielke is a bizarre German baroque swan neck 
> style job with an extremely long neck probably 
> the result of a conversion by Bachmann in 1760.
> 
> The Tieffenbrucker is another swan neck 
> instrument resulting from a conversion possibly 
> by Fux though 1696 is a bit early unless it was 
> then intended as an angelique.Neither are what we 
> would nowadays call a theorbo, though of course 
> the term was in use then for such instuments.

And with fingerboard lengths in the eighties, they would have to have been 
strung and used as theorbos by the players who probably called them theorbos.

It seems we’re having a discussion about nomenclature rather than organology.  
But that’s cool, and it’s always fun to push a button and call up the 
encyclopedia of instruments you carry around in your head.




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[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[howard posner]

> On Aug 18, 2019, at 10:22 AM, David Van Edwards  
> wrote:
> 
> There are of course several luiti attiorbati in 
> Paris with 7 fingered courses but one of them 
> looks a bit theorbo-ish and might be the one 
> you're thinking of. It's anonymous E.25 (C228) 13 
> courses 1x1, 6x2 @ 710mm + 6x2 @ 1090. Joël's 
> catalogue thinks it was converted from a 
> German/Italian renaissance lute into a liuto 
> attiorbato in 17th century. All the real theorbos 
> there have six fingered courses, either double or 
> single.

My information is all second or third-hand, but I was also thinking of the 
“Magno diefobruchar a venetia" and Tielke instruments in Paris Musee de la 
Musique, both apparently configured like German lutes with 8 fingerboard 
courses at 82 and 84 cm.



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[LUTE] Re: Picture(s) of a Theorbo originally built by Pietro Raillich

[howard posner]

> On Aug 17, 2019, at 11:29 AM, Luca Manassero  wrote:
> 
>  if all chitarroni I see in museums had 6 single or double
>   courses (I think I remember one with seven fretted courses at the Cité
>   del la Musique in Paris, but I'm not sure thou), WHY ON EARTH do I see
>   almost all chitarroni with 8x1 fretted strings??

A modern theorbo player plays a wider variety of music than an Italian player 
in 1660 or a French player in 1700 would have played, and thus needs either to 
haul more than one theorbo around or have an instrument configured to be as 
versatile as possible. It’s similar to the reason so many harpsichords are made 
now with keyboards that transpose a semitone, something that wouldn’t have been 
useful in 1700.

There are more theorbo-sized instruments than you think that have seven or 
eight courses on the fingerboard.  I think the LSA is still hosting Klaus 
Martius’ Lautenweltadressbuch, which sounds in English like a means of sending 
letters to lutes but is actually a database of extant historical instruments.  
You can hours of fun going through it if you’re curious:

https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/index.html#Lautenweltadressbuch



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: thumb in or out???

[howard posner]

> On Aug 3, 2019, at 3:06 PM, G. C.  wrote:
> 
>   Nigel North has a relaxed thumb out playing style. Notice how the
> pinky wanders!

And the thumb wanders inside the fingers (e.g., 0:58, 6:58).  

I suppose whoever just wrote that he didn’t want to listen to baroque lute 
players who use thumb-in can skip those notes.

Sooner or later these discussions about thumb-in/out start sounding like the 
Lilliputians debating which which end of the egg to suck.



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[LUTE] Re: RH folk style

[howard posner]

> On Aug 2, 2019, at 1:50 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> There are passages in pieces by Vallet where he indicates a thumb-index 
> alternation in diminutions on the 4th to 6th courses of the lute but this 
> does not mean that he was using thumb-in (since he seems to specifically to 
> deride the use of this in his introduction). 

Something he would hardly have done if there weren’t a significant number of 
players using it.

BTW, your selection of pictures proves conclusively that all early 17th-century 
lutenists had red noses.

> 
> With the difficulty for many lutenists today of playing music and instruments 
> spanning three centuries or more it seems inevitable that one will not be 
> able to develop very different specific techniques for each period. With this 
> in mind, maybe we should be clearer about exactly what we mean when 
> distinguishing between thumb-in and thumb-out. For the former are we mainly 
> referring to early renaissance technique carrying on from the use of the 
> plectrum and with many passages of diminutions using alternating thumb and 
> index in all registers of the lute or are we being more categorical and 
> demanding that for later music not only one replaces the alternation of 
> thumb-index with index-middle finger but that the actual position of the 
> thumb be extended out when playing, which necessitates changing the angle of 
> the hand in relation to the strings even to the extent of placing the little 
> finger behind the bridge (and which demands a complete rethink of tonal 
> issues)?
> 
> Many period depictions of lutenists playing 10-course instruments show an 
> almost exaggerated thumb-out right-hand position. This is far more extreme 
> than the nicely relaxed and natural position of Mouton's right-hand on his 
> 11-course lute in the famous painting and engraving thereof. (Links below.)
> 
> Surely the proof of the pudding is in the eating. To my mind the musical 
> result is paramount. I get no pleasure from listening to a rendition of a 
> work by a specific composer that uses politically correct technique but falls 
> short musically.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Matthew
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lute_Player_(Hals)#/media/File:Hendrick_ter_Brugghen_-_Lute_Player_-_WGA22182.jpg
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2c/92/b0/2c92b0c44c25b848cc3d7ff99252d58a.jpg
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mouton#/media/File:Charles_Mouton_-_Fran%C3%A7ois_de_Troy.jpg
> http://www.tabulatura.com/moutonreduc.jpg



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[LUTE] Re: Torah

[howard posner]

Yes, it was definitely the Talmud that Alkan was almost certainly not trying to 
reach when the bookcase almost certainly did not fall on him.

While Tristan has a point, facetious I’m sure, about the collective weight of 
the Talmud being potentially fatal, it’s a bunch of volumes, so if it falls on 
you it’s more like, say, the New Grove than a big rock. 

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 11:12 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> I think you are right about the Talmud. My memory of the episode is murky as 
> Hell!

Well, it happened in 1888, so you must have been very young.




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[LUTE] Re: Torah

[howard posner]

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> This 19th century pianist and composer died crushed by the fall of his 
> private library's (heavy) bookshelf  as he was trying to reach the Torah on 
> the top shelf?

Not to be a killjoy, but:

"He remained a strict member of the Jewish faith in which he had been brought 
up, and was widely read in classical and biblical lore. This may account for 
the story, which seems to have no basis of truth, that he died under a 
collapsed bookcase; de Bertha’s account of his death mentions no such incident.

--Hugh McDonald in Grove




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[LUTE] Re: RH folk style

[howard posner]

OK, I stand corrected.

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 10:18 AM, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> I’m not aware of anyone on this stating categorically that thumb-in is 
> anathema on the d-minor lute. 




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[LUTE] Re: RH folk style

[howard posner]

I’m not aware of anyone on this stating categorically that thumb-in is anathema 
on the d-minor lute.  But I could easily have missed it, or deleted it and 
forgotten about it.  I tend not to waste time dealing with categorical 
statements about how every player in history played the same way. And if, by 
chance, I've ever written anything here in the last 25 years that sounds like a 
categorical statement about the way every player, ever, played the same way, 
chalk it up to sloppy writing (or thinking), delete it, and forget about it.

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 9:23 AM, G. C.  wrote:
> 
>  People on this list f. ex.?




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[LUTE] Re: RH folk style

[howard posner]

> On Aug 1, 2019, at 8:17 AM, G. C.  wrote:
> 
>   I thought thumb in on baroque lute was considered anathema?

Considered by whom? 



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[LUTE] Re: M. H. L.

[howard posner]

> On Jul 29, 2019, at 2:18 AM, Yuval Dvoran  wrote:
> 
> I never met him before, unfortunately.

And it’s a waste of time calling up his social secretary to arrange an 
introduction now.

> Is there any edition of his works or an important manuscript with his works?

Varietie of Lute Lessons has a Pavin “made by the most magnificent and famous 
Prince Mauritius, Landgrave of Hessen” on page 31 (of the pdf I have).

There’s a facsimile of lute manuscript for the Landgrave’s daughter:

 Lautenbuch der Elisabeth von Hessen: Facsimile 4° Ms. Mus. 108.1 
Universitätsbibliothek Kassel , ed. Axel Halle (Kassel:  Bärenreiter,  2005)

about which I know no more than I could read here:

https://academic.oup.com/em/article-abstract/36/3/471/395203?redirectedFrom=fulltext

and a modern edition of his lute music (?):

https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/34612898?q=42858148



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[LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)

[howard posner]

You might want to reread the part about using your ears.  “Precise fret 
positions” is an irrelevant concept if you tune by actually listening; that’s 
why your repeated demands for numbers are going unanswered.

> On Jul 26, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson  
> wrote:
> 
>   Thank you Stephan,
>   Would you kindly share what precise fret positions result when you set
>   the
>'fifth fret so high that you can still enjoy and work your way
>   through.'
>   MH
> 
>   On Friday, 26 July 2019, 13:17:31 BST, Stephan Olbertz
>wrote:
>   You wouldn't even need a tuner. Just set a fifth fret so high that you
>   can
>   still enjoy and work your way through all the other frets and open
>   courses
>   by means of comparing octaves and unisons.
>   Use strings that are neither too old nor too new. And be sure to tune
>   to a
>   fourth based tuning.
>   Regards
>   Stephan
>   

>   Im Auftrag
>   von Roland Hayes
>   Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Juli 2019 13:36
>   An: Martyn Hodgson; [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Steve Ramey
>   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
> Or you could get a meantone tuner and use your ears and not a
>   measuring
> tape
> Get [1]Outlook for Android
>   __




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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

> On Jul 23, 2019, at 9:07 AM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> I have a practical question : is it common practice for Baroque lute players 
> to also adjust their frets when they change their diapason tuning?

No, it’s common practice to tune the diapasons to the fretted notes if tuning 
them to G, Ab, Bb, B, C, C#, Eb, E or F#.



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[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

The biter was a violinist.  The bitee was Weiss.

> On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:45 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:
> 
>  Didn't a musician (lute player?) try to bite the thumb off another
>   musician? I can't remember the details-
>   I bet the disagreement was over tempered tuning.
>   They didn't have the internet back then.




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[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

You might go back and listen to the first F chord, the fourth note of the 
piece, in the quarter-comma tuning a few times, then listen to the same chord 
in any of the other meantone tunings.  It’s weird to the point of dissonance in 
the quarter-comma version, and very different from the others.  Indeed, if I 
heard it another context I’d assume it was just out of tune.

> On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:10 PM, G. C.  wrote:
> 
>   Dear Rainer,
>   when listening to Tarletone, which came in 4 versions, I have to say,
>   that to my ears, they all sounded virtually the same, at least the 3 MT
>   versions.
>   For some reason, my ears prefered the equal temperament one, although I
>   can't exactly say why. It felt more "crisp" if that says anything.
>   My  + 60 year's hearing must probably be somewhat deteriorated, or
>   heavily indoctrinated.
>   Best wishes
>   G.
>   On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:49 AM Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
>   wrote:
> 
> Go to
> [2]http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=80798
> 8
> and press "Related Links".
> I think there are other pages with vocal music in different tunings,
> but I cannot remember.
> Rainer
> PS
> We had this discussion not very long ago and apparently nobody has
> changed his mind :(
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
>   2. http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/product_info.php?products_id=807988
> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

I quoted your words so any reader could tell whether I was distorting your 
meaning.

And whatever I was doing, it wasn’t a “syllogism,” which is defined as "a form 
of reasoning in which a conclusion is drawn (whether validly or not) from two 
given or assumed propositions (premises), each of which shares a term with the 
conclusion, and shares a common or middle term not present in the conclusion”

for example:

All keyboard instruments have keys.
Citterns have no keys.
Therefore, citterns are "more in the class of a keyboard instrument.”

But you’re absolutely right: I need to go back to work.


> On Jul 22, 2019, at 12:32 PM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> Sorry Howard, but you employed a faulty syllogism contrived by altering and 
> amending my words, a typical lawyerly device.  I did not state that following 
> Galilei's precepts is the one true way.  I said that musicians who understand 
> music and wish to explore the more interesting repertory temper their 
> instrument according to Galilei's precepts.  I stand by my words as I 
> originally stated.  No subtlety.  No spin.  Go back to work.
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf of 
> howard posner 
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 5:36 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>  
> > On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> > 
> >  I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
> > What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority 
> > by stating that their particular approach is the one true way.  
> 
> But you’re the one who just wrote:
> 
> > musicians who
> >  understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
> >  lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
> >  temperament.
> 
> 
> If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of 
> Vincentio Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune 
> according to the precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,” it’s 
> a subtlety lost on someone who hasn’t your genius for distinguishing complex 
> ideas from contradictory ones.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   Virus-free. www.avast.com

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

> On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:01 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>  I am very good at distilling complex ideas into concise terms . . .
> What I do not value is the manner in which various players claim authority by 
> stating that their particular approach is the one true way.  

But you’re the one who just wrote:

> musicians who
>  understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
>  lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
>  temperament.


If there’s a difference between “tuning according to the precepts of Vincentio 
Galilei is the one true way” and “musicians who don’t tune according to the 
precepts of Vincentio Galilei don’t understand music,” it’s a subtlety lost on 
someone who hasn’t your genius for distinguishing complex ideas from 
contradictory ones.








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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[howard posner]

> On Jul 20, 2019, at 4:22 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>  musicians who
>   understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
>   lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
>   temperament.

You just trashed most of the best musicians in early music, and, apparently, 
most of the best music, in a single sentence.  As a person who writes for a 
living, I can only admire your efficiency with words.




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[LUTE] Re: All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)

[howard posner]

> On Jul 15, 2019, at 8:44 AM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:
> 
> I would posit that the father has a much higher probability
>  of being more accurate, in that 'all pop music sounds the same', or
>  certainly -much- pop music sounds the same, no?

I couldn’t tell you.  First, you haven’t defined “pop music” by either genre or 
time; second, whatever the definition is, I haven’t listened to enough of it to 
form a judgment; and third, if I listened to enough of it to form a judgment, I 
would be an aficionado attuned to its differences, and would therefore not 
think it all sounded the same.   

BTW, if your point is that there's a lot formula and fill-in-the-blanks in pop 
music, the same is true of, say, Mozart’ symphonies (Mozart scholars talk about 
“filler passages” that are interchangeable from one to another) and Handel’s 
operas.  It doesn’t they aren’t good.



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[LUTE] All music (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar)

[howard posner]

 On 13.07.19 19:30, John Mardinly wrote:

>   My teenage daughter says all classical music sounds the same. I tell
>   her all pop music sounds the same. Who is right?

Ooh, easy one:

You’re both wrong.  You’re both making sweeping categorical statements based on 
insufficient information.  You, Ph.D., in particular, should know better than 
to characterize “all pop music” without first listening to all pop music.



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[LUTE] Rite of Spring (was Siena Manuscript No. 17 before being hijacked to India)

[howard posner]

On Jul 13, 2019, at 3:37 AM, Daniel Shoskes, with admirable conciseness, wrote:

> https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/queen-we-are-champions-rite-of-spring/

I hear the correspondence of some of the notes of the opening of Rite of Spring 
with the chorus of We Are the Champions, but don’t hear enough musical 
similarity to get me speculating about whether there was an actual link.

The first time I heard Rite of Spring, at age 11 or 12, I was struck 
immediately by how similar the opening was to a phrase from the 1934 song, 
“Little Man You’ve Had a Busy Day,” with which it shares a six-note sequence 
starting with the second syllable of “crying:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0UVV0TNr_g=pl%2Cwn

The song seems to have serious legs over the years.  Eric Clapton recorded it 
in 2016:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaFRAVyskwE=pl%2Cwn

Rite of Spring is rightly considered a revolutionary work, but it’s also a 
collection of really good tunes, and if you put Italian lyrics to that opening 
solo and stuck it in a Puccini aria, it would fit right in.

And of course, Freddie Mercury was heavily into early 20th-century Italian 
opera.



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[LUTE] Re: Tailpieces (was Plucking Room)

[howard posner]

> On Jul 1, 2019, at 12:15 AM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> Is the typo intentional? (Just wondering how much irreparable damage shawms 
> and tubas can really cause…)


Judging from the editorial accuracy of my posts last night, the damage was to 
my eyes.



> On 6/30/19 7:43 PM, howard posner wrote:
>> At an LSA seminar ears ago we had an ad hoc band in which Bob Clair played 
>> shawm and Gus Denhard played tuba with a group of lutes ...



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[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[howard posner]

Geez, speaking of not editing and not knowing what someone is trying to say…  
Here’s my last post corrected so as not to be gibberish, or at least not 
obviously gibberish:

We need to be wary of statements in Lundberg’s book, inasmuch as he died 
without finishing it and the publisher(s) chose to present it as is, although 
there are some things in it that he could not possibly have meant, such as “The 
one lute-family instrument being built during this period is the theorbo.”  (p. 
12) He seems to have been referring to the period from 1600-1680, but there was 
never a time for which that statement would be true.  I don’t know what he was 
trying to say.




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[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[howard posner]

My 1980 Lundberg archlute is pretty much scoopless. I  find the lack of scoop a 
minor inconvenience; we get used to the instruments we play.

But when Paul O’Dette borrowed it to play a concerto years ago, his fingers hit 
the top a good deal, it got a bit percussive at times. 



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[LUTE] Tailpieces (was Plucking Room)

[howard posner]

> John Mardinly  wrote:

> The big question that I have never had answered is why do plucked string 
> instruments have the string tension carried by the soundboard itself, instead 
> of having the string tension carried by the body of the instrument via a 
> tailpiece the way violins, violas, cellos and string basses do?

Because lots of players and listeners like the sound produced by instruments 
built that way.  It’s really as simple as that.  You change the construction, 
you have a different instrument.

Luthiers knew how violins were built: many of them built violins, which is why 
violin makers are known to this day as luthiers.  They could have made lutes 
with tailpieces.  They didn’t want to.

> And also:

> The point is that bracing, whether ladder or fan, that gives
>   strength to the top so that it does not come apart due to string
>   tension, suppresses vibration and thus volume and sustain. So the
>   bracing could be minimized if the bridge/top did not need to cary the
>   tension of the strings.

Or if you used a cello-type tailpiece to to anchor the strings, you might be 
able to use far more massive strings, as the cello does.  Your question about 
why this isn’t done makes sense only if you assume that maximizing volume is 
what’s important.  More sound isn’t always better, and the lute became a 
dominant art instrument in an era that prized soft sounds, classed instruments 
into “high” (loud) and “low” (soft) and tended not to mix them.  (At an LSA 
seminar ears ago we had an ad hoc band in which Bob Clair played shawm and Gus 
Denhard played tuba with a group of lutes, but nobody suggested we take that 
act on the road.)   

A lute as loud and penetrating as a banjo would change the nature of lute 
songs, with singers needing to sing louder, losing subtlety, range of 
expression, and a low note or two.

You might ask why clarinet makers build the instrument with a cylindrical bore, 
when a conical bore would be a more efficient way to produce sound.  The answer 
would be that if it’s built with a conical bore, it’s a saxophone.




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[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[howard posner]

We need to be wary of statements in Lundberg’s book, inasmuch as he died 
without finishing it and the publisher(s) chose to present it as is, although 
there are some things in it that he could not possibly have meant, such as “The 
one lute-family instrument being built during this period is the theorbo.”  (p. 
12) He seems to have been referring to the 1600-1680, but there was never a 
time for which that statement would be true.  I don’t know he was trying to say.

> On Jun 30, 2019, at 2:07 PM, ron.ba...@rwbanks.com wrote:
> 
> While I'm a big fan of Lundberg's body of work, we'll need to agree to
> disagree which camp the belly/soundboard it fits into.  For what it's worth,
> violin makers commonly refer to their tops as bellies as well...taxonomy
> among luthiers can be very generic.
> 
> Let's also not forget that Lundberg made the comment on the banjo and the
> importance of sustain, when discussing the early development of the lute.
> He also said the following on page 30 of Historical Lute Construction:
> "However, the need to sustain some notes, thereby adding a new dimension to
> changes in rhythm and phrasing, became more and more important; so much so
> that the main direction of tonal development through the Renaissance periods
> and into the Baroque period was towards increasing sustain."   (Lundberg,
> Robert. Historical Lute Construction. Tacoma Washington: Guild of American
> Luthiers, 2002)
> 
> Sustain with lutes is at best a relative term.  I've played some lutes that
> were as efficient as a Quaker Oats box, and some that would easily sustain
> for 3-4 seconds.  What I was driving at was that unlike membrane tops, a
> conscious effort was made to match the energy driven into the soundboard
> (belly) with a system that provided a proper match to keep that energy from
> dissipating too quickly.  Plate tuning, bar shape, bar location, and
> possibly even belly scooping contribute to final outcome...which might be a
> much more complex set of subsystems than a tensioned membrane.   
> 
> Let's also consider that like guitars, and unlike banjo's,  Renaissance and
> later lute bellies are structural and act both in tension and compression.
> Membrane tops on the other hand, require a self-supporting structure, and
> function using tension.  Unless turned into cuir bouilli, membranes really
> can't act in compression.
> 
> I'll not hazard a guess regarding the violin comments, as YMMV.  The violin
> community does that instrument enough damage seeking pseudoscience answers
> to shortcut time and good craftsmanship.
> 
> Seriously though,  I appreciate your comments, and am glad to be a part of
> this community.  I certainly don't hold the source of all truth regarding
> the lute, so I'll gladly call myself out when my ideas go into attic Strad
> territory.
> 
> Ron Banks
> Fort Worth, TX




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[LUTE] Re: how about changing the subject too!

[howard posner]

What’s wrong with “was,” other than the possibility that it will offend any 
ancient Romans on the list?

> On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:47 PM, Leonard Williams  
> wrote:
> 
> I believe the way to treat a changing subject is with the magic word
>   "olim", which is Latin for something like "used to be".   E.g.:
>   To crop or not [olim Julian Bream on lute]
>   Corrections gladly accepted,




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[LUTE] Asteroid heading for Earth! We're all doomed!

[howard posner]

I agree with David’s disagreement.  And, obviously, with Wayne’s remarks about 
changing subject lines.

> On Jun 28, 2019, at 9:06 AM, David Smith  wrote:
> 
> One reason, perhaps, that it has not changed is that some of us do not agree 
> with the idea of removing all context of an email message. I get a lot of 
> emails that have just the response and I have no clue what they are talking 
> about. A bot to do this would be horrible since it would remove the 
> possibility of seeing the information.
> 
> Now, if every email had a link to the thread in the email archive that the 
> email was part of, then removing context would be fine - I could easily go to 
> the context in the archive.
> 
> A contrarian view. By the way, I spent the last 50 years in the high-tech 
> industry, have been on and led many standards bodies, currently must deal 
> with a couple of hundred email messages a day (on just the one out of 5 email 
> accounts I have), and sympathize with the large amount of content to wade 
> through. But, context is so important that I am willing to deal with having 
> more, rather than less, information in an email.




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[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

[howard posner]

On Jun 19, 2019, at 8:49 AM, Franz Mechsner  wrote:

>   Apart from my really deep admiration for Bream, I asked a very simple
>   question: How did he get the marvellous sound and colors from a lute
>   with his fingernails?

No you didn’t. 

Your four previous posts on this subject did not mention fingernails, so you 
shouldn’t be surprised if nobody’s answers addressed them.


>   When I myself try to play my lute with fingernails, the
>   instrument answers with catastrophic screams: "No no, please stop this
>   bad treatment of my delicate personality!”.

Bream’s lute and strings were less delicate.  The whole point was to have an 
instrument that felt enough like the guitars he played so that he could switch 
back and forth easily.

There are players today who use nails on historically constructed instruments.  



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[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme

[howard posner]

> On Jun 7, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> Yes, but the question must be, dialect from where exactly?  Regional
>   dialects have always varied significantly and it is really a vain
>   effort to think we can impose one true historical pronunciation upon
>   the whole of the past.  This is rather like the absurd notion among
>   (non-Italian) singers that there is one correct pronunciation of
>   historical Italian.  

I think London is assumed.  Whether there was only one London pronunciation in 
1600 is another story.

> My hypothesis is that the primary reason for war
>   is because people just can't understand what other people are saying.

This would be the Anti-Douglas Adams Hypothesis, I suppose:

"The Babel fish is small, yellow, leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in 
the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier 
but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from 
this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of 
its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought 
frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain 
which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick 
a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in 
any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the 
brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so 
mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers 
have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the NONexistence of God.

The argument goes like this: 

`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and 
without faith I am nothing.'
`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not 
have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own 
arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a 
puff of logic.
`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is 
white and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing.
Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, 
but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as 
the central theme of his best-selling book, "Well, That about Wraps It Up for 
God."

Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to 
communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and 
bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation."



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[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme

[howard posner]

> On Jun 6, 2019, at 7:04 PM, Ed Durbrow  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> For what it’s worth, in Shakespeare’s sonnets: 
>> 
>> Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find and mind.
> 
> That is the information I was looking for. Thank you Howard.


You’re welcome, but it isn’t necessarily the information you’re looking for.  
What if Campion pronounced “find” as 
“finned”?  Or something completely different?  



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[LUTE] Re: Renaissance rhyme

[howard posner]

> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Ed Durbrow  wrote:
> 
> wanted to know which word changes so that winde and kinde rhyme.

If you’re asking which word is pronounced as in modern English (in what accent? 
 Australia?  Mississippi?) the answer may be neither.

For what it’s worth, in Shakespeare’s sonnets: 

Wind (in the sense of air blowing) rhymes with find and mind.

Mind rhymes with blind, behind, kind, and find

Kind rhymes with mind, confined, bind, behind and mind

Find rhymes with wind, mind and blind





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[LUTE] Re: De Visee

[howard posner]

> On May 27, 2019, at 7:02 PM, Ed Durbrow  wrote:
> 
> I visited a violin and ukelele maker here in Japan who used a plant as 
> sandpaper. He grew it right outside the door.

Yes, he’s famous for taking wood and nearly-finished instruments and rubbing 
them up against that pine tree outside his door, but most luthiers find that 
technique inefficient.



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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[howard posner]

> On May 26, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Jacob Johnson  wrote:
> 
>  it does seem a bit strange to say that Now O Now could not possibly
>   have been written prior to 1597.

Has anyone said that?  Dowland’s preface says that most of his songs should be 
“ripe enough by their age” to have achieved popularity, so it’s clear that he 
didn’t just crank them out that year.  There’s a testimonial from Luca Marenzio 
on the same page dated 1595.



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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[howard posner]

> On May 26, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jacob Johnson  wrote:
> 
> Thank you all for the information! It's a good point that attempts at
>   courting Francis ended in 1585,

The man died in 1584.

> and that the First Booke was not
>   published for another 15 years. Still, the Frogg Galliard appears in
>   Dd. 2.11, which was copied between 1588 and 1595. It would be
>   disingenuous to suggest that the piece could not have been written
>   before 1585 due to its appearance in The First Booke.

I hope not:

disingenuous[ dis-in-jen-yoo-uh s ]  adjective

lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically 
ingenuous; insincere:
Her excuse was rather disingenuous.
RELATED WORDS
dishonest, unfair, deceitful, false, artful, crooked, cunning, designing, 
duplicitous, feigned, foxy, indirect, insidious, mendacious, oblique, shifty, 
sly, tricky, two-faced, underhanded





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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[howard posner]

> On May 26, 2019, at 1:48 AM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> The negociations for Elizabeth to marry Francis finally failed in 1582, 15 
> years before the First book of songes was published. There is no mention in 
> "Now o Now" of how ugly Francis was (dwarfish, with severe scars from the 
> small pox). I don't see how English poets of the time could have skipped over 
> the opportunity to revile a French suitor to their queen based on his 
> physical appearance. If the Frog galliard were entitled the Toad galliard, 
> your theory might hold some water...
> 
> Jokes aside, 15 years is a long time in politics (even in those days), and 
> the complete absence of satirical content in the lyrics of the song cast a 
> doubt on that theory in my opinion.
> 
> At the time Dowland published the First book of songs, Queen Elizabeth would 
> have been 64, a ripe old age beyond any sort of romantic inclination and 
> possibly touchy if anyone dared harp on it …

Anyone who considered the Queen and her suitor a subject of satire--or indeed 
much of anything else—would be taking a grave risk.  We’re not talking about 
Stephen Colbert and Donald Trump here.

In 1579 a Puritan named John Stubbs wrote "The Discovery of a Gaping Gulf 
whereunto England is like to be swallowed by another French Marriage, if the 
Lord forbid not the banns, by letting her Majesty see the sin and punishment 
thereof,” a pamphlet arguing against the marriage of Elizabeth and Anjou 
because the 46-year-old queen, too old to bear children, had no need to marry, 
and the marriage could lead to restoration of Catholicism, which would destroy 
English liberty, including freedom of speech.  He wrote that the marriage would 
be "an immoral union, an uneven yoking of the clean ox to the unclean ass, a 
thing forbidden in the law” [i.e., Deuteronomy 22:10] and a "more foul and more 
gross" union that would incur God’s anger, leaving the English "pressed down 
with the heavy loins of a worse people and beaten as with scorpions by a more 
vile nation."

Stubbs and the publisher, William Page, were found guilty of "seditious 
writing", and had their right hands cut off, somewhat undercutting the argument 
about protecting free speech.  Just before the sentence was carried out, with a 
crowd of people watching, Stubbs said, "Pray for me now [that] my calamity is 
at hand,” securing for himself a place in the Smartass Hall of Fame.





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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[howard posner]

> On May 25, 2019, at 11:56 PM, Jacob Johnson  wrote:
> 
>  Has anyone suggested that "Now O Now" and the Frogg Galliard might be
>  in reference to Elizabeth's "on again, off again" courtship with
>  Francis, Duke of Anjou? 

Yes, anyone has suggested this.  It comes up on this list from time to time, 
and you can find discussion in its archives if you do a better job of searching 
than I just did at 40 minutes past midnight local time. 

The connection is tenuous, inasmuch as the prospect of Elizabeth marrying the 
Duke Anjou were dead by 1581, when Dowland was 17 or 18, and the Duke himself 
died of malaria three years later.



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[LUTE] Re: Dowland's first book of songes

[howard posner]

> On May 25, 2019, at 12:39 PM, guy_and_liz Smith  wrote:
> 
> At a seminar I attended some years ago, Pat O'Brien made a plausible case 
> that Can She Excuse (which is based on the Earl of Essex galliard) is a 
> veiled reference to the relationship between Elizabeth and Robert, Earl of 
> Essex.

The idea that Essex wrote the words (and those Bacheler’s To Plead My Faith) 
has been discussed for decades.  Poulton goes through the subject on pages 
225-330 of the 1982 edition of John Dowland (I imagine it was in the 1972 
edition as well, but don’t have it).

> They were widely believed to be lovers early on, but it didn't last and 
> there's apparently a letter from him to Elizabeth sent during his tenure as 
> Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (which was less than successful), complaining of 
> ill treatment by her. Robert ultimately was accused of treason

It probably had something to do with the rebellion he led in London in February 
1601.  For some reason, this was considered a sign of disloyalty.

> and executed.

Well, his head was cut off.  To be fair, Essex behaved so brainlessly sometimes 
that Elizabeth may have just been trying to find out if he could do without it. 

Poulton points out that Dowland did not use the title “Earl of Essex Galliard” 
until 1604 (in Lachrimae or Seven Teares), when Elizabeth and Essex had been 
dead for one and three years, respectively.



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[LUTE] Re: Dürer's African Man and Neusiedler's weird dances

[howard posner]

On May 22, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Tristan von Neumann  
wrote:

> But then I played a "Court Dance" from Hans Neusidler's book.
> 
> The guy next to me said - "Hey, this is our culture! I know this!".
> 
> I was confused, and put this into the "universal music" box.
> 
> Today, I played through Vol. 6 of Wurstisen (just came out, thanks
> Sarge) and found the same dance.
> 
> And what do you know - it is called "Der Schwartzknab" ("The Black Boy")
> there.
> 
> That's definitely two totally separate hints that the dance may be of
> West African origin.

Why not? Some form of a jig named for the Canary Islands (as west as Africa 
gets) was known throughout Europe. There were all sorts of contacts between 
Europe and West Africa, many of them bad for the Africans, to be sure.

> Albrecht Dürer once drew an African Man in 1508, a real portrait,

And a 1521 portrait of an African woman named Katherina, who was a servant in 
Antwerp.  Both can be seen at:

http://afroeurope.blogspot.com/2012/10/black-man-and-woman-in-16th-century.html



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[LUTE] Re: Funky Chords in Lute Literature

[howard posner]

Kapsberger’s Colascione comes to mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhuwIBKkdPc=pl%2Cwn


> On May 11, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> The interesting thing about it is the use of power chords. I am sure
> this would sound great on an Electric Guitar. If someone wants to try.
> 
> This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask:
> 
> Do you know of any other pieces that make use of "modern" slide
> techniques that sound funky?
> 
> Also, funky chords are appreciated.




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[LUTE] Re: How to improve lute performance

[howard posner]

> On May 11, 2019, at 9:21 PM, John Mardinly  wrote:
> 
> Amazing. I was looking closely to see if any of them played with nails, and 
> one guy played with GLOVES!

He had to.  He’d broken a nail.



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[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[Howard Posner]

I’d have asked him the question I asked you.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 23, 2019, at 18:02, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> Pat's opinion re the luthier's fault.
> RT
> 
>> On 3/23/2019 7:01 PM, howard posner wrote:
>> What do you base that conclusion on?
>> Did the lute formerly have a lighter neck?
>> 
>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 3:16 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been detrimental to 
>>> its sound.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://turovsky.org
>>> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he also 
>>>> told me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the neck, 
>>>> instead of reinforcing the sound.
>>>> 
>>>> Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:
>>>>> Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness improves the
>>>>>  sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset along
>>>>>  the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a neck
>>>>>  that is only 66.7cm.
>>>>>  A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>>>>  On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero <[2]l...@manassero.net>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>> I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big Hasenfuss
>>>>> theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
>>>>>built a
>>>>> very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
>>>>>concerts.
>>>>> A lighter neck should solve the issue.
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> Luca
>>>>>  Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the fantastic
>>>>>  voice.  I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore does not
>>>>>  vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a damping
>>>>>  effect on the body of the instrument.  I don't recall whether Hendrik
>>>>>  told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't vouch
>>>>>  for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
>>>>>  But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo was
>>>>>  never a problem because I never held the instrument while I played it.
>>>>>   I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace from
>>>>>  the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
>>>>>  instrument).  I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
>>>>>  Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
>>>>>  And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
>>>>>  H
>> 
>> 
>> 
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[LUTE] Re: Heavy theorbo neck

[howard posner]

What do you base that conclusion on?
Did the lute formerly have a lighter neck?

> On Mar 23, 2019, at 3:16 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> One of my lutes is neck-heavy, and it definitely has been detrimental to its 
> sound.
> RT
> 
> 
> http://turovsky.org
> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> 
>> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:48 PM, yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>> 
>> My lute builder, Dieter Schossig, is actually a physicist, and he also told 
>> me about this. It's about the energy that gets lost in the neck, instead of 
>> reinforcing the sound.
>> 
>> Am 23.03.2019 22:29 schrieb John Mardinly:
>>> Some guitar makers have also believed that neck stiffness improves the
>>>  sound. Ramirez 1A guitars have a significant graphite-epoxy inset along
>>>  the neck to stiffen it, and that is said to be significant in a neck
>>>  that is only 66.7cm.
>>>  A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>>>  On Mar 23, 2019, at 2:22 PM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
>>>  wrote:
>>>On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero <[2]l...@manassero.net>
>>>wrote:
>>> I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big Hasenfuss
>>> theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss
>>>built a
>>> very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during
>>>concerts.
>>> A lighter neck should solve the issue.
>>> All the best,
>>> Luca
>>>  Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the fantastic
>>>  voice.  I've been told that a neck that's heavy, and therefore does not
>>>  vibrate, increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a damping
>>>  effect on the body of the instrument.  I don't recall whether Hendrik
>>>  told me that, or it was volunteered by someone else, and I can't vouch
>>>  for its accuracy as a matter of acoustical science.
>>>  But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo was
>>>  never a problem because I never held the instrument while I played it.
>>>   I just used a strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace from
>>>  the bridge-end of the instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the
>>>  instrument).  I could take my hands off the theorbo completely.
>>>  Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.
>>>  And it's a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.
>>>  H




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[LUTE] Heavy theorbo neck

[howard posner]

> On Mar 23, 2019, at 5:43 AM, Luca Manassero  wrote:
> 
>   I‘m about to ask him to rebuild the long neck of my big Hasenfuss
>   theorbo, as the instrument has a fantastic voice, but Hasenfuss built a
>   very heavy long neck, so it is really painful to homd during concerts.
>   A lighter neck should solve the issue.
>   All the best,
>   Luca

Consider that the heavy neck may be part of what makes the fantastic voice.  
I’ve been told that a neck that’s heavy, and therefore does not vibrate, 
increases resonance because a vibrating neck has a damping effect on the body 
of the instrument.  I don’t recall whether Hendrik told me that, or it was 
volunteered by someone else, and I can’t vouch for its accuracy as a matter of 
acoustical science.

But I can tell you that the heavy neck on my Hasenfuss theorbo was never a 
problem because I never held the instrument while I played it.  I just used a 
strap, and ran a leather or fake-leather bootlace from the bridge-end of the 
instrument and sat on it (the lace, NOT the instrument).  I could take my hands 
off the theorbo completely.  Indeed, listeners may have preferred it when I did.

And it’s a lot cheaper than rebuilding the neck.

H



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[LUTE] Re: 5c guitar case recommendation

[howard posner]

I recently undertook a similar quest.  A classical guitar case can be adapted 
for a baroque guitar by using a high-tech invention called a “towel” to take up 
the extra space and keep the instrument from moving.

And of course, you’ll always know where your towel is.

Cheers,

Douglas Adams



> On Mar 15, 2019, at 9:35 AM, Lucas Harris  wrote:
> 
>   Hello, friends,
> 
> 
>   Looking for recommendations for cases for a couple of Baroque guitars.
>   These are (flat-backed) student models now being made in Wilma van
>   Berkel’s shop in London, ON, so we’re looking for something more
>   affordable than top-tier custom cases but of decent quality that will
>   protect the instruments in the various Canadian seasons.
> 
> 
>   Any recommendations appreciated, whether it might be standard cases for
>   other kinds of guitars that can be adapted or reasonably-priced custom
>   case makers.




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[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[howard posner]

> On Mar 6, 2019, at 5:02 PM, lex.eisenhardt  wrote:
> 
>   Have a look at my recent Visée video, on YT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AEos1CGhTM=pl%2Cwn



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[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[howard posner]

> On Mar 5, 2019, at 2:09 AM, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> Pat actually had me put masking tape on my pinky early on,
> to prevent it from bending.

Yes, shaking hands with Roman was always a strange experience for that reason.




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[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[howard posner]

> On Mar 4, 2019, at 7:12 PM, Richard Brook  wrote:
> 
> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger 
> down by itself.

To be clear, in Paul’s younger days he had the not-uncommon problem of having 
the left-hand pinky stick up when it wasn’t in use, which kept the fingertip 
inefficiently far away from the fingerboard.  He kept being told, by people who 
hadn’t thought much about it, that the solution was to concentrate really hard 
on keeping it curved, advice which would have done more harm than good if he 
paid attention to it.  The problem is caused by too much tension in the left 
hand, and goes away when the hand is relaxed, which is what Paul learned from 
Pat.  Paul mentioned this in a master class (probably many times).  I never 
heard Pat talk about it, though I’m sure he did.



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[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[howard posner]

> On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:58 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where 
> aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is 
> that they cannot bend their little finger?

>From the Wikipedia page about The Invaders, which aired on ABC in 1967:

They had certain characteristics by which they could be detected, such as the 
absence of a pulse or heartbeat and the inability to bleed. Most of the aliens, 
in particular the lowest-ranking members or workers in green jumpsuits, were 
emotionless and had deformed little fingers which could not move and were bent 
at an unnatural angle, although there were "deluxe models" who could manipulate 
this finger.

> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with 
> his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?

More likely an alien.




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[LUTE] Re: Thomson, Haydn, Beethoven (was Barbara Allen)

[howard posner]

> On Feb 5, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> One point Howard makes is that Beethoven wanted more money than Haydn because 
> he added both  a violin and bass line. First it is a fascinating -- if down 
> to earth -- insight on how musicians made (or begged or haggled for) a 
> living. And probably still do. But it leaves me puzzled because Haydn's 
> Barbara Allen does consist of the voice part, a violin part and a figured 
> bass (the collection title indicates "in three parts") - so I guess the same 
> thing Beethoven claimed to provide: The equivalent of "I'll throw in an extra 
> topping of mushrooms on the mushroom pizza for topence more"…?

Before you go to the trouble of being puzzled, consider that It’s been years 
since I looked at the source material and may be mistaken about exactly what 
Beethoven was supplying that Haydn wasn’t.  Of course, Beethoven may have been 
mistaken about what Thomson got from Haydn: I doubt he looked at all 214 of 
Haydn’t arrangements.

> Two final thoughts: I think figured bass was fading out of use at that time 
> (early 19th century),

It was a slow fade.

Beethoven’s opus 86 Mass in C (1807) has a one-staff “Basso e Organo” part with 
figures.  His Missa Solemnis (1823, published 1827) has a two-staff obbligato 
organ part.

The latest work I can think of, offhand, with a b.c. part is Anton Bruckner’s 
Requiem (1849):

https://imslp.org/wiki/Requiem,_WAB_39_(Bruckner,_Anton)

But there are likely later ones.

> yet the Barbara Allen score seems to me overly figured. I assume that 
> musicians proficient with continuo markings would only indicate the rather 
> less obvious harmonies - not every chord. (?)

Some composers, Couperin for one, figured densely so as to make it foolproof.  
The harpsichord (in the solos)/continuo (in the tuttis) part of Bach’s Fifth 
Brandenburg Concerto has a lot of 6’s that seem unnecessary. I think composers 
or editors each brought their own attitudes about how to figure.



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[LUTE] Re: Barbara Allen

[howard posner]

> 
> On Feb 4, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> I am looking at an 18th century setting of the Scottish ballad "Barbara 
> Allen". How credible is the "Harmonized by Joseph Haydn" credit? It's on 
> IMLSP at: 
> https://imslp.org/wiki/Barbara_Allen%2C_Hob.XXXIa:11_(Haydn%2C_Joseph)

Very credible.  George Thomson, the publisher, paid Haydn well to do a good 
many such arrangements of folk songs.  He later paid Beethoven to do the same.  
Beethoven scholars will occasionally lament about how much time Beethoven, at 
the height of his creative powers, spent arranging things like God Save the 
King and Sally From My Alley.

> Th melody and lyrics are quite different from the 20th century American 
> version.

As it would be.  That’s the folk process.



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[LUTE] Re: Chanterelle

[howard posner]

> On Jan 13, 2019, at 1:56 PM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm sure everyone will be horrified, but I use Ominflex 25lb test nylon
> fishing line (from WalMart: about 2 or 3 dollars for a lifetime supply  : )

Yes, I do find Walmart a bit horrifying.



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[LUTE] Re: Tonality in the Baroque

[howard posner]

> On Jan 9, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Ralf Mattes  wrote:
> 
>> although, like a lot of Fux’s book, it was very old fashioned in 1704.
> 
> ??? Whut? That system was widely used well into the 19th (!sic) century. It's 
> just that a lot of researches tend to skip the
> early chapters of contemporary manuals. Just have a look at some of the most 
> important instruction manuals and how much (expensive!) space they dedicate 
> top proper solmization teaching.

I’m aware that Gradus ad Parnassum hung around for a long time.  That doesn’t 
mean it wasn’t old fashioned when it was written.  Fux was up front about it.  
The counterpoint section of the book is a dialog between Aloysius the master 
and Joseph the student, and Fux says in his Author’s Foreword that Aloysius is 
Palestrina, who died 130 years before the first (Latin) version of the book was 
published (in 1725, not, as I wrote earlier, 1704).  Fux was ignoring 
Monteverdi and the seconda prattica, not to mention Vivaldi, Fux’s attitude 
about whom might be gleaned from his statement in the Foreword that he did not 
think his book “can call back composers from the unrestrained insanity of their 
writing back to normal standards.” 

Consider that Gradus ad Parnassum, full of statements like “the counterpoint 
must be in the same mode as the cantus firmus," was first published three years 
after Rameau’s Treatise on Harmony, which gave names to the concepts of tonic 
and dominant.  

To return to the original question, Fux took the triple-naming of notes for 
granted and did not explain it.  In Alfred Mann’s translation, The Study of 
Counterpoint (my paperback copy of which is starting to like it was Fux’s 
personal copy) Mann adds a footnote on page 31 explaining it, much as Ralf did, 
but with examples in staff notation.  You can find a pdf of the book here:

http://www.opus28.co.uk/Fux_Gradus.pdf





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[LUTE] Re: [OT] Tonality in the Baroque

[howard posner]

> On Jan 9, 2019, at 2:42 PM, Mark Probert  wrote:
> 
> And I am, sad to say, ignorant of the actual meaning of "D la.sol.re". 

I believe it’s just a convention of combining varying names for one note: D 
might be la, re or sol depending on which hexachord you assume, so it became 
standard to use all three names, although, like a lot of Fux’s book, it was 
very old fashioned in 1704.



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[LUTE] Re: Re-entrant open basses

[howard posner]

> On Oct 23, 2018, at 12:44 AM, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:
> 
> Following on from the discussion about strings and perhaps a bit of a 
> non-sequitur, the well known painting by Antiveduto Grammatica shows a 
> lute-shaped instrument with 5 courses on the fingerboard and 9 open 
> basses. The two lowest bass courses i.e.8 and 9 appear to be thinner 
> than the other seven and therefore were presumably re-entrant.

Or made of a different substance.  Or the painter is not worried about how 
precisely he’s rendering the strings.  

>  How 
> common was it to have re-entrant basses like this on theorboed 
> instruments and what sources actually mention it as an option.

It was probably common for archlutes to have six courses on the fingerboard and 
the 14th course at F#  a half-step below the sixth course.  

On page 10 of Piccinini’s 1623 book, he sets out “accordatura ordinario" for a 
13-course archlute with the 13th course at Eb, a half-step above the ninth 
course on page 10, but also indicates the 13th-course tuning at the ends of 
pieces.  At the end of Toccata XI, he has the 13th course at F#, a half-step 
above the seventh course. 

Page 10 also has an “accordatura ordinario” for a 14-course chitarrone with the 
14th course a half-step above the seventh.



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[LUTE] electric theorbo

[howard posner]

On 04/10/2013 07:17, John Lenti wrote: 
> Speaking as a full-time theorbo player, I feel that I can say with some 
> authority that the theorbo cannot be held comfortably by anyone ever. What 
> you do is you play near the bridge and suffer, pop some Advil, suffer some 
> more, pop a Demerol, more massage, claw at the strings nearish the bridge, 
> Demerol, suffer, stretch, suffer, take a month off, and then start over. The 
> theorbo is out to get you, and it will win.

I bring up John’s memorable (and, alas, accurate) 5-year-old remarks because 
the current issue of Early Music America has a feature story on the Seattle 
Baroque Orchestra, which includes a picture of him playing a concerto for 
electric theorbo, an instrument I had never imagined, but which looks like 
John’s ergonomic dream instrument.  On to victory...



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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[howard posner]

> On Sep 18, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> The computer analysis of Shakespearian vocabulary that pinned it on a single 
> individual from Warwickshire 

That rules out Shakespeare, who was married.




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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[howard posner]

> On Sep 17, 2018, at 1:37 AM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> look for something called "law French", a language understood only by English 
> lawyers and very much alive until at least the 18th century. It makes modern 
> legaleeze sound simple,

Law English is still largely French: words like estoppel, mortgage, plaintiff, 
defendant, bailiff,  warrant, guaranty, voir dire, parol (and parole), tort, 
felony, estate, escrow, privilege, joinder, fraud, demurrer, amendment, 
privity, enjoin, damages, judgment, equitable, discharge, precedent, levy, 
attach, lien, pardon, patent, plea, easement, evidence, ordinance, repeal, 
reverse, counsel and attorney, to name a few.


> although still difficult to read because in very small letters. 

??



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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[howard posner]

Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> As for the less-than-eloquent William Shakespeare,  it's just plain silly to 
> think he actually wrote the canon commonly attributed to his name.  He was a 
> player, a station lower than that of a professional musician.  

He was a landowner, a station rather higher than a professional musician.  

There are all sorts of indications in the Shakespeare plays that the author had 
working-class/agrarian/merchant background.   

When Hamlet tells Horatio, "There’s a divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew 
them how we will,” he uses terms that gardeners (or hedge-workers, anyway) were 
still using in the 20th century, and for all I know, the 21st.  His characters 
will talk of sheep as actual animals, rather than as metaphors for people 
easily led, which is unusual if not unique at the time, but a natural thing for 
someone who was in the wool business.  The word “cheveril” (glove leather, 
which needed to be more supple than any other leather) three times in his plays 
(Mercutio tells Romeo "O, here's a wit of cheveril, that stretches from an inch 
narrow to an ell broad;” the Old Lady remarks on Anne Boleyn’s “cheveril 
conscience” in Henry VIII; and Feste in Twelfth Night says "A sentence is 
but 
a cheveril glove to a good wit: how quickly the 
wrong side may be turned 
outward”) which is three more times than I’ve ever found it in other other 
author’s words, almost as if the au!
 thor’s father was John Shakespeare the glove maker.

> I think there is strong evidence that the plays arose from the circle 
> surrounding Lucy Countess of Bedford, including the  likes of John Donne, Ben 
> Jonson, Edmund Spenser, Samuel Danyel.  

I don’t even want to know what you’d consider “weak evidence."

> William Shakepeare the playwright is a successful bit of propaganda that 
> paved the way for other enormous lies that the public buys.  

Who would have been part of this disinformation conspiracy, and why?  Besides 
Ben Jonson, of course, and a bunch of London publishers, and the theater 
companies in which Shakespeare was a partner, and the university-educated 
writers who bitched about the uneducated upstart, and  everyone else until the 
19th century.

>  A thinking person considers that tremendous output and weighs it against the 
> physical reality of the amount of time required to produce all that 
> scribbling in light of the work a player like William Shakespeare was 
> required to do in order to survive.  

The Shakespeare canon is between 36 and 42 plays, depending on one’s attitude 
about authenticity.  Surely, Ron, as someone who has churned out a large volume 
of deathless, insightful prose as a sidelight to your busy life as a musician, 
you’re not seriously suggesting that a gifted writer could not produce those 
plays over the 25 years we know Shakespeare was active.  That’s about a play 
and half per year, and we know that a number of plays were collaborations.

If you want to tell me that Telemann had to be identical triplets, I’m with 
you, but “Shakespeare couldn’t have found the time” won’t hold water.  




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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[howard posner]

> On Sep 16, 2018, at 12:14 PM, Matthew Daillie  
> wrote:
> 
> You might be interested in this video which summarizes some of the research 
> carried out by David Crystal et al on English pronunciation at the time of 
> Shakespeare (and Dowland) and the productions of his plays at the Globe 
> theatre using 'Original Pronunciation':
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s

Indeed, I was interested enough to have seen it already.  It explores the 
differences between modern Received Pronunciation that London stage actors 
traditionally use, and the London stage accent of 400 years ago, which is in 
many ways similar to the way English sounds in Bristol now.  Of course, it’s 
all a little peripheral to the question of whether Shakespeare might have 
spelled differently in a letter to his wife in Stratford than he would in a 
play to be spoken in London, or whether anyone would have cared.



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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[howard posner]

> On Sep 16, 2018, at 5:22 AM, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> Have a closer look at the spelling - which became somewhere infamous :)

The to-do about Shakespeare’s spelling is really much ado about not much.  
English spelling was not standardized in his day.  English pronunciation itself 
varied greatly with location, as it does today even after nearly a century of 
received pronunciation from the BBC.  We know far more about how to pronounce 
Beowulf and other pre-1066 writings than we do about how to pronounce 
Shakespeare. 

And while today “correct” spelling in English is regarded as essential to an 
educated person (in no small part because spelling in English is so difficult 
and irrational), education in Shakespeare’s time meant facility in Latin.

I’m particularly amused at the Oxfordians, who make such a fuss about the 
different ways Shakespeare spelled his name, but don’t think the Earl of 
Oxford’s multiple spellings of “Oxford” are at all significant.  



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[LUTE] Re: Builder of Hard Cases

[howard posner]

> On Sep 6, 2018, at 11:21 PM, Stephan Olbertz  wrote:
> 
> Umlaut-trouble again...

"Holger Gotz" (with umlaut) actually came through perfectly on my my email, 
without the digital garbage that you got on the copy sent back to you.  Don’t 
ask me to explain why my email server in California handled the umlaut better 
than yours in Germany.



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[LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2

[howard posner]

> On Aug 27, 2018, at 11:31 PM, Martyn Hodgson  
> wrote:
> 
> do you really mean to say that a prospective purchaser
>   shouldn't try and find out something of what a recording is like before
>   shelling out any cash

No



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[LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2

[howard posner]

Maybe it’s time to be reminded that nobody has said the vihuela can’t be 
distinguished from the lute in this recording.  Ed asked which cuts were on 
vihuela and which were on lute precisely because he HADN'T heard the recording, 
something that got lost early in the discussion (and was lost on me when I 
chimed in).  

So someone considering buying the recording need not be concerned with whether 
the engineer was  ignorant and opinionated, or indeed with whether NIgel wanted 
to make the two instruments sound similar. 


> On Aug 27, 2018, at 12:55 AM, Martyn Hodgson  
> wrote:
> 
>   Indeed, I agree. Which is why I put the similarity in sound down to
>   things other than how the two instruments were constructed - things
>   like the engineer, incorrectly and through ignorance, modifying the
>   sound so that the two instruments sound very similar.
>   Of course, it may be that NN had his viola belly constructed like a
>   lute ..
>   MH
> __
> 
>   From: SW 
>   To: Martyn Hodgson ; Sean Smith
>   ; lutelist Net 
>   Sent: Monday, 27 August 2018, 8:24
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2
>   My knowledge of instrument making is limited but lute and vihuela
>   construction are somewhat different. Obviously the body shape is
>   different but a lute has a very thin soundboard with a fairly
>   complicated barring system. According to Alfonso Marin the vihuela has
>   just two bars and a thicker soundboard (maybe 3mms in places).
>   It might be expected that there would be some audible difference in
>   sound.
>   On 27 August 2018, at 07:21, Martyn Hodgson
>   <[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> It may, of course, simply be down to a self-opionated sound/recording
> engineeer. Some of these seem ignorant of what period instruments
> actually sound like in the flesh and seek their own subjective
> recording 'balance' and tonal qualities. They, in their ignorance,
>   may
> even think a viola da mano 'should' sound like a lute and make the
> necessary adjustments
> MH
>   __
> From: Sean Smith <[2]lutesm...@gmail.com>
> To: lute <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018, 18:41
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2
>   If we cannot hear the differences between the two instruments from
>   a
>   recorded performance, what conclusions should we draw? Is the
>   difference more apparent when we are in the same room? Should we
>   suspect they have been mixed (deliberately? inadvertently?) to make
>   them more similar?
>   Sean
>   On Sat, Aug 25, 2018, 5:37 AM Edward Martin
> <[1][1][4]edvihuel...@gmail.com>
>   wrote:
> Dear ones,
> I was asked to provide the answer to the list, so here it is:
> Nigel plays on both kinds of instrument: approximately 2/3 of
> the
> pieces on lute; the rest on viola da Mano (vihuela).
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Christopher Stetson
> <[1][2][2][5]christophertstet...@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Nigel's Francesco vol 2
> To: Edward Martin <[2][3][3][6]edvihuel...@gmail.com>
> Edward,
> Can you share the answer to the list, for the curious?
> Thanks,
> Chris.
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 9:24 PM, Edward Martin
> <[3][4][4][7]edvihuel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear ones,
> My inquiry was answered, thanks to Steven, Steve, and
> Andrew.
>   Thanks
> to all 3!
> --
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
> [4][5][5][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
> References
> 1. mailto:[6][6][9]christophertstet...@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:[7][7][10]edvihuel...@gmail.com
> 3. mailto:[8][8][11]edvihuel...@gmail.com
> 4.
>   [9][9][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   --
> References
>   1. mailto:[10][13]edvihuel...@gmail.com
>   2. mailto:[11][14]christophertstet...@gmail.com
>   3. mailto:[12][15]edvihuel...@gmail.com
>   4. mailto:[13][16]edvihuel...@gmail.com
>   5. [14][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   6. mailto:[15][18]christophertstet...@gmail.com
>   7. mailto:[16][19]edvihuel...@gmail.com
>   8. mailto:[17][20]edvihuel...@gmail.com
>   9. [18][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> Virus-free. [19]www.avast.com
> --
>   References
> Visible links
> 1. mailto:[22]edvihuel...@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:[23]christophertstet...@gmail.com
> 3. 

[LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2

[howard posner]

> On Aug 26, 2018, at 10:38 AM, Sean Smith  wrote:
> 
>  If we cannot hear the differences between the two instruments from a
>   recorded performance, what conclusions should we draw? Is the
>   difference more apparent when we are in the same room? Should we
>   suspect they have been mixed (deliberately? inadvertently?) to make
>   them more similar?

I might conclude 1) that Nigel’s taste in instruments leads him to own a 
vihuela that sounds like his six-course lute, 
2) that Nigel has an ideal sound that he tries to get from both instruments, or 
3) My ears aren't refined enough to detect the difference.

The last seems unlikely, given the time I spend applying ear-refining lotion.



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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[howard posner]

I doubt it.  The lute was not a lower-class instrument, and a streetwalker 
would not likely have one.  It would be an expensive way to advertise in any 
event.  I suppose a courtesan might acquire one, but she wouldn’t be parading 
around with it on the street; her services were, in theory, exclusive.



> On Aug 10, 2018, at 5:13 AM, Luca Manassero  wrote:
> 
> As far as I remember, a lady walking with a lute in Venezia (XVIth
>   century) was considered a prostitute.




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[LUTE] Naughty songs (was: prostitution)

[howard posner]

> On Aug 10, 2018, at 2:37 AM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> Just curious: did Mozart compose anything we'd consider "bawdy" or tavern 
> material??

I don’t know about tavern, but there’s plenty of Mozart that’s not fit for 
church.  Mozart’s “naughty” humor tended toward the juvenile: buttocks, 
excrement, flatulence.  It has led to some talk about his being stunted in his 
emotional/sexual development, but to be fair, the whole Mozart family, 
including his mother, seemed inclined toward that sort of humor, as evidenced 
by their letters.

Bona Nox (K. 561), for example, ends with:

gute Nacht, gute Nacht,
scheiß ins Bett daß' kracht;
gute Nacht, schlaf fei g'sund
und reck' den Arsch zum Mund.

You might want to look up this 1967 recording by the Norman Luboff choir, with 
Igor Kipnis, no less, at the harpsichord:
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Is A Dirty Old Man (The Scatological Canons And Songs 
Sung In English)

https://www.discogs.com/Norman-Luboff-Igor-Kipnis-Wolfgang-Amadeus-Mozart-Is-A-Dirty-Old-Man-The-Scatological-Canons-And-Son/release/2945663

I wouldn’t actually try to listen to it, because Luboff sanitized the 
translations, but the website does provide a sort of reference to Mozart’s 
off-color songs.   Like Purcell’s, they often take canonic form.



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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[howard posner]

> On Aug 10, 2018, at 12:07 AM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> We already established that Lasso was a serious composer, and that serious 
> does not mean stick up his ass.

We established that you don’t know the meaning of the English word “serious.”  

> I asked what adjective you wish to apply to describe Lasso.

You did not.

I told you that “serious” did not mean “stick up his ass,” and you then 
apologized for being German (presumably meaning that your understanding of 
English was limited) and asked "what word would you choose?”  This clearly did 
not refer to Lassus, but to “stick up his ass.”  It may not have been what you 
meant, but it is what you said.  I gave you a list of potential synonyms, which 
I thought quite helpful.  

If I thought you wanted a one-word description of Lassus, I would not have 
responded.  A great, and extremely prolific, composer, cannot be summed up in 
an adjective. 

> I suggested dedicated, which can also imply dedication to humor once in a 
> while.

This makes no sense.  You’re saying that if you tell me Lassus was a 
“dedicated” composer, I should assume you mean he was dedicated to humor once 
in a while? I would assume no such thing.  “Dedicated” implies the opposite, 
inasmuch as it connotes single-mindedness.

Let me suggest that we don’t burden the list with any more of this.  Email me 
privately if, for some reason, you want to continue this discussion.



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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[howard posner]

> On Aug 9, 2018, at 8:58 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I'm German.
> 
> What would you choose?
> "Dedicated" seems more like it?

No, someone with a stick up his ass is not “dedicated.”

Try stuffy, priggish, prim, rigid, pompous, prissy, stiff, starched, 
sanctimonious, prudish, inflexible, self-righteous, fussy, goody-goody, 
Victorian, puritanical, straightlaced, or holier-than-thou.



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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[howard posner]

> On Aug 9, 2018, at 8:37 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> I meant serious in the sense that he had a stick up his a**.

That’s not what “serious” means.



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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[howard posner]

> On Aug 9, 2018, at 7:34 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> Lasso was *not* a serious composer.

Does this mean he never wrote a closet raga?

> He composed the announcement music for the "Gümpelsbrunn Nose Dance" (an 
> early teaser trailer for an event...), but the festival is probably legendary 
> because no town named Gümpelsbrunn is known. :)
> 
> Also, he wrote a letter to his Patron, the Duke of Bavaria, which would today 
> read something like this:
> "Hey, Boss, I arrived in Munich. Thanks for the stockings. We sat around and 
> made fun of everybody, including you."
> 
> ..and for the closing words:
> "Okay Boss, now it's time to visit the Netherlands of my wife. I haven't 
> fd in a while."
> 
> No kidding. This is the guy.
> 
> Also remember his hilarious Matona mia cara, where a German landsknecht tries 
> to sing a cool song for his girl but in very bad Italian.
> The final stanza also uses the F-Word.  

This hardly makes a case for his not being serious, but there’s lots of other 
evidence:

Like those hilarious Penitential Psalms.
And the zany Lagrime di San Pietro.
And the four highly risque “Passion” (you know what he means…) settings.
And the goofy Lamentations
Don’t forget the 100 Magnificats.

Not a serious bone in his body.




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[LUTE] Re: prostitution

[howard posner]

> On Aug 9, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> I thought Lasso was a rather serious composer...

Nobody’s serious all the time.



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[LUTE] Re: Bergamasca video

[howard posner]

> On Aug 1, 2018, at 9:50 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> Well done Ed - Who says you can't play a 16-course archlute piece on  
> 7-course lute?

Well, I say it all the time, but since I usually mention it to administrative 
law judges, it’s kind of  conversation-stopper.



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[LUTE] Re: intabulations

[howard posner]

> On Jul 30, 2018, at 1:12 AM, Ed Durbrow  wrote:
> 
> Doug gives the number 1,200 intabulations in the 16th century, which he says 
> is half of the published Italian lute pieces. This number seems low (maybe 
> needs another zero?)

Not likely.  The key word is “published."



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[LUTE] Re: chord names

[howard posner]

> Tonic, dominant, etc?   When did this start?

“Tonic" and “dominant" are from Rameau’s 1722 Treatise on Harmony.  I can’t 
swear he invented the terms, but he’s the reason they’re used.  Describing 
music in harmonic terms is his legacy.  The Treatise was published less than 20 
years after Fux’ Gradus ad Parnassum, an authoritative text on modal polyphony.



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[LUTE] Re: Things you didn't know you should worry about

[howard posner]

I’ve never seen a flute player using anything like a Yamaha Lip Plate Patch; 
maybe lips (more accurately, “that bit of the face above the chin and below the 
lower lip") slipping from the lip plate is a problem for flute players only 
during a lute performance.

> On Jul 10, 2018, at 1:07 PM, l...@reasonablefax.com wrote:
> 
> "Yamaha Lip Plate Patch
> 
> "The Yamaha Lip Plate Patch prevents the lips of the performer from slipping 
> during a lute performance. Package contains 15 patches."
> 
> https://www.flutespecialists.com/product/yamaha-lip-plate-patch/
> 
> -Anne Burns



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[LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[howard posner]

Thanks again to everyone who responded, even Martin and Matthew, who seem to 
mistake me for someone who can be trusted with sharp objects.

I widened the holes that needed it, and in the process discovered a really good 
local tool store that had an assortment of small drill bits.



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[LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[howard posner]

Thanks for the responses.  I have owned a pin vise for decades, but don’t 
actually have any bits that fit it, which is a measure of my cowardice in the 
face of doing anything that permanently alters the instrument.  

Matthew, is there a particular reason for not lubricating the string, other 
than “it won’t work”?  Will it harm the bridge, or make it harder to enlarge 
the hole?



On Jun 29, 2018, at 12:37 PM, guy_and_liz Smith  wrote:

> I enlarged a couple of bridge holes on my old Larry Brown, which was 
> apparently drilled for relatively thin wound basses and couldn't accommodate 
> larger gut strings. I used what's called a pin vise to hold the drill 
> (standard item in machine shops), with some tape on the top to protect it 
> from the vise. Then just gently spin the pin vise with your fingers to drill 
> out the hole. The main trick is finding a vice that's skinny enough to handle 
> the spacing between hole and top.



> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf 
> Of Matthew Daillie
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 11:50 AM
> To: lutelist Net
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?
> 
> 
> Enlarging the bridge holes can be very straight forward with the 
> appropriate tools (I can send you a photo of the tools I use if you're 
> interested).




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[LUTE] Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[howard posner]

I reconfigure the stringing on my archlute from time to time, which involves 
moving some extension strings so that, e.g. the 8th course becomes the 12th for 
one stringing B, then gets moved back for stringing A.   

I now find that couple of gut extension strings won’t fit through bridge holes 
that they always fit through before.  I tried blow-drying the string ends, on 
the assumption that they had swelled with humidity (not a sound assumption 
where I live), without success.

So now, if I don’t want to string the whole instrument lighter, it seems I have 
two options:
widening the bridge holes or lubricating the string ends.  I’d like to try 
lubricating first.

Does anyone have experience with string lube jobs?  What do you use?



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[LUTE] Re: Luthier question

[howard posner]

> On Jun 10, 2018, at 9:39 PM, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> Jack Sanders builds (and plays) baroque guitars and vihuelas, and cases, 
> along with modern-style instruments.   I’m not sure where he is in the vast 
> SoCal expanse

I just recalled that he teaches guitar at Pomona College, and indeed, Lucas 
Harris studied with him there in the 90’s.

www.pomona.edu/directory/people/jack-sanders



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[LUTE] Re: Luthier question

[howard posner]

> On Jun 9, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Brad Horstkotte  wrote:
> 
>  - are there any lute builders in my neck of the woods (Los Angeles
>   area)?

Not a lot.  Jack Sanders builds (and plays) baroque guitars and vihuelas, and 
cases, along with modern-style instruments.   I’m not sure where he is in the 
vast SoCal expanse, but his website is:

www.sandersguitar.com

You can catch him playing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55LFrQbBXBA

and luthierizing:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI8SsF8zOHs




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[LUTE] Re: Vincenzo Galilei and the elusive "BM"

[howard posner]

> On Jun 9, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> Lutists, please don't kill me

Not even a little?



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[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[howard posner]

> On May 15, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> I bet Conlon Nancarrow has some even shorter values

I thought so too, so I was just looking at a Nancarrow score this morning.  The 
note values were larger than you’d expect because he makes the half-note the 
basic beat and uses quick tempos. 



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