[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Love it! Your ironic views lighten up my day! If I might remark, though, you forgot the anthrax spores and the bovine spongiform encephalitis this time. Excellent point about needing a 'hot room' for gluing, so the stuff doesn't gel before you get the joint together. Similarly, you need a hot room for epoxy, so that it will kick off at all. I must say that I am biased because the fragrance of hot glue takes me back to happy days of my youth when I worked as a farm labourer on summer afternoons in a field just a few yards away from a knacker's yard where the raw ingredients for hide glue were separated from the rest of the ex-animals. Unfortunately my love of the lip-smacking aroma is not shared by other residents of my abode . . . Thank you for drawing out these fond memories. Bill From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 23:19 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Very cool! I stand in shame at my arrogance... I found the stuff a misery, actually, and as for the reversal properties I tended to do more damage than good. I got to where I just planed the hunk off and made a new one from scratch. Epoxy actually separates better for me. That was then, now I'm a free man! Also, I tend to work in cold shops. Do you keep a special hot room for hide gluing like the early sufferers/hot glue users? I don't know which is actually stronger; especially since hide glue comes in a number of strengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if hide glue actually is the strongest bond strength. Have you tried Hot Stuff instant for rosette repair? Other than it's toxic and bad for your lungs, it works great! Garry From: [1]sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:50 PM To: [2]Garry Warber ; [3][1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Hi-- I have glued ribs and all the other parts of a lute with hide glue too. I do know there are some places for titebond such as when carving the rose and a piece breaks, or making the mold... Sterling But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier...I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as reversible with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; [4][2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [5][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [6][4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [7][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [8][6]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [9][7]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [10][8]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [11][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Sold my electric automatic glue pot... We are off grid now. Just warm glue is only the beginning! Kind of like getting out some eggs to make an omelet... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Edward Martin Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:21 PM To: Garry Warber Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? I know a luthier who uses hide glue daily. He has it warm, in a pot, and it works very well for him. At 05:19 PM 8/31/2011, you wrote: Very cool! I stand in shame at my arrogance... I found the stuff a misery, actually, and as for the reversal properties I tended to do more damage than good. I got to where I just planed the hunk off and made a new one from scratch. Epoxy actually separates better for me. That was then, now I'm a free man! Also, I tend to work in cold shops. Do you keep a special hot room for hide gluing like the early sufferers/hot glue users? I don't know which is actually stronger; especially since hide glue comes in a number of strengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if hide glue actually is the strongest bond strength. Have you tried Hot Stuff instant for rosette repair? Other than it's toxic and bad for your lungs, it works great! Garry From: [1]sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:50 PM To: [2]Garry Warber ; [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Hi-- I have glued ribs and all the other parts of a lute with hide glue too. I do know there are some places for titebond such as when carving the rose and a piece breaks, or making the mold... Sterling But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier...I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as reversible with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [8]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [9]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [10]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [13]http
[LUTE] Re: long strings?damping
Hi- Even with gut strings on say a baroque lute it is still good to damp the strings, otherwise it sounds messy. Also just for articulation. If you listen to the top players of today damping basses is very common. There are different techniques for damping and it soon becomes trivial. --Sterling From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 10:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?damping This discussion would make a lot more sense if posters explained what gut is being compared to. In some cases, it's overwound strings, and in others, it's plain nylon. On Aug 30, 2011, at 5:00 AM, andy butler wrote: Are there any players who reckon that damping is essential? Tympanists, mostly. It makes the lute vastly more difficult to play: in an ascending passage on the diapasons, the thumb has to make three maneuvers (play note, reach back up to damp it, then move to the next one) instead of one for each note. If you find you need to damp consistently to avoid the sound fogging over, change strings. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [4]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [6]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?damping
Sterling, Agreed. Ideally, one wants the bass line to be articulated in the same manner as any line played on the fretboard. In fact, basses frequently cross between fretted notes and diapasons. Presumably these two types of passages should be performed in the same manner even though the diapason notes will require a different technique to get the same effect. It takes years of work to make it sound natural. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com --- On Wed, 8/31/11, sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com wrote: From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?damping To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, August 31, 2011, 2:21 AM Hi- Even with gut strings on say a baroque lute it is still good to damp the strings, otherwise it sounds messy. Also just for articulation. If you listen to the top players of today damping basses is very common. There are different techniques for damping and it soon becomes trivial. --Sterling From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 10:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?damping This discussion would make a lot more sense if posters explained what gut is being compared to. In some cases, it's overwound strings, and in others, it's plain nylon. On Aug 30, 2011, at 5:00 AM, andy butler wrote: Are there any players who reckon that damping is essential? Tympanists, mostly. It makes the lute vastly more difficult to play: in an ascending passage on the diapasons, the thumb has to make three maneuvers (play note, reach back up to damp it, then move to the next one) instead of one for each note. If you find you need to damp consistently to avoid the sound fogging over, change strings. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
--=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But Sterling... Iâm (or was) a luthier...I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as âreversibleâ with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HTMLHEAD/HEAD BODY dir=ltr DIV dir=ltr DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #00; FONT-SIZE: 12pt DIVBut Sterling...nbsp; Iâm (or was) a luthier...nbsp; IMG style=BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none class=wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile alt=Smile src=cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPCnbsp; I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc...nbsp; I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as âreversibleâ with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... IMG style=BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none class=wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile alt=Smile src=cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPCnbsp; It works well.nbsp; So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate.nbsp; You should try gluing lute ribs with hide...nbsp; Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on.nbsp; Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think.../DIV DIVGarrynbsp; /DIV DIV style=FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #00; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none DIV style=FONT: 10pt tahoma DIVnbsp;/DIV DIV style=BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5 DIV style=font-color: blackBFrom:/B A title=spiffys84...@yahoo.com href
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I wonder how many of today's lutenists are using double gut frets? It would seem that until the time of Thomas Mace (who I think was the first to mention the use of single frets), and maybe for some time after that double frets were the norm. Players who have used them will probably tell you that they do affect the quality of sound produced. So - In our search for an authentic playing experience and sound, shouldn't the use of double frets be high on our priority list? In case you are unfamiliar with the double fret knot, it is described at David van Edwards's website - [1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm Bill From: sterling price spiffys84...@yahoo.com To: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 7:30 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [1][2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [2][3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [3][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [4][5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [5][6]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [6][7]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [7][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][8][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[12]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. mailto:[13]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[14]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:[15]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:[16]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 7. mailto:[17]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 7. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 13. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 14. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 15. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 16. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 17. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I know that some top lute makers (and by 'top' I really do mean names that cause avaricious salivation when they are uttered in the company of lutenists) use a number of different glues for different joints in an instrument - notably aliphatic resin (Titebond), but also hide glue for parts that may need to be separated for future repairs. By the way, something I didn't find out until quite recently; hide glue dissolves very readily in alcohol - which could have its uses, especially for cleaning off residues. Piano technicians use that method of separating joints routinely, though of course it is likely to damage a polished surface it the alcohol gets onto it. Bill From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 12:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? --=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier...I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as reversible with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [6]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [7]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HTMLHEAD/HEAD BODY dir=ltr DIV dir=ltr DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #00; FONT-SIZE: 12pt DIVBut Sterling...nbsp; I'm (or was) a luthier...nbsp; IMG style=BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none class=wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile alt=Smile src=cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPCnbsp; I used hide glue for years
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Yes, regular old rubbing alcohol mix and a bit of heat is the standard joint softener. -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 8:33 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? I know that some top lute makers (and by 'top' I really do mean names that cause avaricious salivation when they are uttered in the company of lutenists) use a number of different glues for different joints in an instrument - notably aliphatic resin (Titebond), but also hide glue for parts that may need to be separated for future repairs. By the way, something I didn't find out until quite recently; hide glue dissolves very readily in alcohol - which could have its uses, especially for cleaning off residues. Piano technicians use that method of separating joints routinely, though of course it is likely to damage a polished surface it the alcohol gets onto it. Bill From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 12:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? --=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier...I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as reversible with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [6]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [7]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HTMLHEAD/HEAD BODY dir=ltr DIV dir=ltr DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #00; FONT-SIZE: 12pt DIVBut Sterling...nbsp; I'm (or was) a luthier...nbsp; IMG style=BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none class
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
It really depends upon application and luthier, even amongst those with a great deal of hide glue experience. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:31 AM To: Garry Warber; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [4]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [6]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Hi-- I have glued ribs and all the other parts of a lute with hide glue too. I do know there are some places for titebond such as when carving the rose and a piece breaks, or making the mold... Sterling But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier...I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as reversible with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [6]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [7]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HTMLHEAD/HEAD BODY dir=ltr DIV dir=ltr DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #00; FONT-SIZE: 12pt DIVBut Sterling...nbsp; I'm (or was) a luthier...nbsp; IMG style=BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none class=wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile alt=Smile src=cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPCnbsp; I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc...nbsp; I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as reversible with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... IMG style=BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none class=wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile alt=Smile src=cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPCnbsp; It works well.nbsp; So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate.nbsp; You should try gluing lute ribs with hide...nbsp; Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Very cool! I stand in shame at my arrogance... I found the stuff a misery, actually, and as for the reversal properties I tended to do more damage than good. I got to where I just planed the hunk off and made a new one from scratch. Epoxy actually separates better for me. That was then, now I'm a free man! Also, I tend to work in cold shops. Do you keep a special hot room for hide gluing like the early sufferers/hot glue users? I don't know which is actually stronger; especially since hide glue comes in a number of strengths, but I wouldn't be surprised if hide glue actually is the strongest bond strength. Have you tried Hot Stuff instant for rosette repair? Other than it's toxic and bad for your lungs, it works great! Garry From: [1]sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 5:50 PM To: [2]Garry Warber ; [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Hi-- I have glued ribs and all the other parts of a lute with hide glue too. I do know there are some places for titebond such as when carving the rose and a piece breaks, or making the mold... Sterling But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier...I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as reversible with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [8]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [9]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [10]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HTMLHEAD/HEAD BODY dir=ltr DIV dir=ltr DIV style=FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #00; FONT-SIZE: 12pt DIVBut Sterling...nbsp; I'm (or was) a luthier...nbsp; IMG style=BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
On 30 August 2011 10:27, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) No such thing as a beginner's question. Superiority is not a word I would use for gut, as gut strings are imprefect in many ways. Another level, their imperfectiong makes me like the sound better, they're more insteresting than bland and boring synthetics (and there's the whole argument of why bother to play an 'early' instrument when using 'modern' strings to produce the sound, but I'll happily leave that to another discussion). Shorter sustain in extended basses is a happy side effect of gut, making damping of said basses unneccecary. I feel we can get an idea of the expected sustain from the music, and to my feeling a shorter sustain than metal-wound basses is called for in especially Baroque lute music. A 'gut' feeling, if you like. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
On 30 August 2011 10:38, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: imprefect in many ways. As is my spelling ... [On] another level, their imperfectiong .. and my grammar. David - doing something else in the mean time, no multi-tasking for me -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I agree with David. However, from the dimmest corner of my memory bank, I think Mersenne (or someone else!) indicated the bass strings should have a sustain of 20 or so heartbeats [forgive me if I am getting this all wrong!]. How long that might be depends on whether you are playing a gigue or a sarabande...but my heart, that is a LONG sustain. Anyone got chapter and verse for the quotation? Rob On 30 August 2011 09:38, David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: On 30 August 2011 10:27, andy butler [2]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) No such thing as a beginner's question. Superiority is not a word I would use for gut, as gut strings are imprefect in many ways. Another level, their imperfectiong makes me like the sound better, they're more insteresting than bland and boring synthetics (and there's the whole argument of why bother to play an 'early' instrument when using 'modern' strings to produce the sound, but I'll happily leave that to another discussion). Shorter sustain in extended basses is a happy side effect of gut, making damping of said basses unneccecary. I feel we can get an idea of the expected sustain from the music, and to my feeling a shorter sustain than metal-wound basses is called for in especially Baroque lute music. A 'gut' feeling, if you like. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I agree that gut strings are very pleasant to play on, but the biggest contribution to the sound of the instrument comes from the musician. A great lutenist can draw a much better quality of sound from a poor lute with nylon strings than a poor lutenist can from a very fine lute strung with gut. Ideally we want everyone to be a great lutenist, playing on gut strings - but I suspect that isn't going to happen any time soon. From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, 30 August 2011, 12:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [3]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [4]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I agree totally with you and I will add: I don't want to spend so much money in fragile and expensive strings to play most of the time only for myself, and I dont want to spend so many time to tune my instruments, while my playing time is limited (as I have a daily job outside of music...). I attend some concert of early music and players spend some time to tune before, during and after playing, and public was quite bored with that, and I guess they would have made no difference hearing the music on synthetic strings, only some very few specialists are able in a concert hall to make the difference (even on some recordings...) I have heard Paul O'Dette in a recital with nylgut strings and his playing was divine... V. -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de William Samson Objet : [LUTE] Re: long strings? I agree that gut strings are very pleasant to play on, but the biggest contribution to the sound of the instrument comes from the musician. A great lutenist can draw a much better quality of sound from a poor lute with nylon strings than a poor lutenist can from a very fine lute strung with gut. Ideally we want everyone to be a great lutenist, playing on gut strings - but I suspect that isn't going to happen any time soon. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Reminds me of the cover to this book: http://www.amazon.com/Your-Accomplishments-Suspiciously-Hard-Verify/dp/1449401023 Chris --- On Tue, 8/30/11, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2011, 7:52 AM Well, I've heard this suggested but, apart from the 'loaded' gut possibilty, I've not seen much hard evidence that modern low twist gut is significantly different to the earlier atrings. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 12:27 There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler [3]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler [4]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler [5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Well, maybe not epoxy... In any event, all arguments of what *they* might have done if they'd had *whatever* on hand are moot if they didn't. Corbetta had no fluorocarbon; Bach didn't own a Steinway grand; etc. I have no idea what musical tools may be available five decades into the future, but assuming I would be making music with them if I had them now is as speculative (and potentially wrong) as it is irrelevant. Being only one person, I don't use most of those available to me right now. Modern players should feel free to make musical hardware decisions based on any practicalities of personal use. If that involves gut diapasons, excellent! If it involves wire-wound nylon multifilament basses, it should be obvious that that wasn't as Piccinini conducted his business, but that's great too. I have a smattering of gut, gimped gut, silver-wound silk, brass wire, Nylgut (both old and new incarnations), fluorocarbon, nylon monofilament, wound nylon, and D'Addario's proprietary wound Composite strings scattered across my miscellaneous few instruments. I wouldn't dare to prescribe such decisions to anybody who isn't me. Nor would I belittle anybody else for such choices if they convinced me of merit via beautiful sound. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Garry Warber Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 8:04 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the old ones used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of interpretive gimmicks. I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that our gut is rather acoustically different from their. Lets not forget to use the honest modifier approximation of. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. MH --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 David van Ooijen wrote: The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, actually. If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if cost is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the best option. Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) andy To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?damping
This discussion would make a lot more sense if posters explained what gut is being compared to. In some cases, it's overwound strings, and in others, it's plain nylon. On Aug 30, 2011, at 5:00 AM, andy butler wrote: Are there any players who reckon that damping is essential? Tympanists, mostly. It makes the lute vastly more difficult to play: in an ascending passage on the diapasons, the thumb has to make three maneuvers (play note, reach back up to damp it, then move to the next one) instead of one for each note. If you find you need to damp consistently to avoid the sound fogging over, change strings. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
On Aug 30, 2011, at 1:45 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote: However, from the dimmest corner of my memory bank, I think Mersenne (or someone else!) indicated the bass strings should have a sustain of 20 or so heartbeats [forgive me if I am getting this all wrong!]. How long that might be depends on whether you are playing a gigue or a sarabande...but my heart, that is a LONG sustain. Anyone got chapter and verse for the quotation? There's a facsimile of Harmonie Universale at: http://imslp.org/wiki/Harmonie_universelle_(Mersenne,_Marin) Book II is at: http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/4/44/IMSLP77445-PMLP156089-MersenneM_HarmUniv_Pt2_05.pdf From page 86: Les Barres que traversent les six regles font la division, la separation des mesures, les notes ou les autres signes que l'on met ordinairement au dessus de la premiere regle qui represente la chanterelle, servent a mesme dessein, car les notes blanches a queue monstrent qu'il faut faire durer leson de la lettre le temps d'une demiemesure, laquelle dure pour l'ordinaire partie d'une heure ou d'une minute, c'est a dire durant la diastole du coeur: cette regle s'entendra aysement par le quatorziesme exemple, qui monstre que quant il n'y a qu'une note pour sept ou huict lettres, qu'il les faut faire toutes de mesme valeur, c'est a dire qu'il les faut toucher aussi viste, ou aussi lentement les unes que les autres depuis cette note iusques l la rencontre d'une autre. I know just enough French to recognize the topic. Maybe someone can translate it. The online text is searchable, BTW. What an age we live in... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I think the most important idea that Chris has brought up here is that we need to consider the other sounds that musicians would have had in their heads from the other instruments and music that was part of their world. Nancy My dissatisfaction with gut rests primarily on fact that I find it very difficult to replicate the style of phrasing that I hear from baroque wind instruments, bowed string players (with baroque bows) and, above all, vocalists. Period treatises for these musicians place a great emphasis on dynamic shading, such as the messa di voce and this is very difficult to emulate on a lute strung in modern gut. (It is difficult on synthetics, but, due the greater sustain, less so.) On the renaissance lute, things are not as crucial since the often profuse ornamentation has a sort of flattening effect. On the baroque lute, however, I have great difficulties reconciling the sonic characteristics of modern gut with important stylistic traits of the music. In the baroque lute literature, this is especially important as the structure of the music is often made up of fairly large gestures (for example, an arpeggiated figure on a single harmony over several bars) which must be grouped accordingly. With the faster decay time of modern gut on a plucked instrument, the implication would be to just play faster, but I've found this unconvincing often enough to make me suspicious of the material's sonic properties as a valid indicator for performance. At least, I don't hear the above mentioned non-lute instruments playing similar items in the manner that a lute strung in modern gut seems to demand. Another context is the long appoggiatura. This is the expressive backbone of baroque music and the lute literature is no exception. With modern gut these often seem rather inexpressive to me and that is a real problem. The other instruments/voices go to extra effort to emphasize the drama of the moment by doing a crescendo/messa di voce on the dissonant note and relaxing on the resolution. On a gut-strung lute, however, the notes of the underlying harmony will often have died away before the consonant note is even sounded. To me, this robs the whole complex of its expressive purpose. I suppose one could argue that this is part of the special charm on the lute: a listener, who is familiar with the vocabulary of baroque style, will recognize when the performer has set up an appoggiatura and, taking care to remember the harmonically contextualizing notes even though they're gone, will fill in the blanks in the mind's ear to achieve a sort of mental pleasure from the simulacrum of expressivity in contrast to the sensuous pleasure gained from the real thing. At least, that's what I find myself doing. Personally, I don't want to make my listeners work that hard. And again, based on what I hear other non-lute HIP musicians doing, I don't buy it as a historical probability. Anyways, that's my 415 cents. Chris Christopher Wilke Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [1]www.christopherwilke.com --- On Tue, 8/30/11, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? To: andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2011, 4:38 AM On 30 August 2011 10:27, andy butler akbut...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Beginner's questions. Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time that someone mentioned earlier? Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) No such thing as a beginner's question. Superiority is not a word I would use for gut, as gut strings are imprefect in many ways. Another level, their imperfectiong makes me like the sound better, they're more insteresting than bland and boring synthetics (and there's the whole argument of why bother to play an 'early' instrument when using 'modern' strings to produce the sound, but I'll happily leave that to another discussion). Shorter sustain in extended basses is a happy side effect of gut, making damping of said basses unneccecary. I feel we can get an idea of the expected sustain from the music, and to my feeling a shorter sustain than metal-wound basses is called for in especially Baroque lute music. A 'gut' feeling, if you like. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Garry, Do as you please and mind your bizz. Everybody does, me included. I have gut strings for basses because I like their short impulse and their quick fading. I don't like overwound nylon strings, ringing on and on, forcing players to stop them. Full stop. What I was reacting to, was the word nonsense. Your would-be hilarious-lute string police comes in the same vein. Casual remarks, probably, and not meant to be disparaging. Sorry for overreacting. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Garry Warber Gesendet: Montag, 29. August 2011 06:16 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Correct to you... :-) What I play in the privacy of my own home is my business. Now I have to deal with lute-string police too? Grammar police I'm used to... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:47 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? I'm thinking theorbo purchase... Where does one get a nylon theorbo 14-course string set? I measured my 8-course lute strings, which went from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short... Please, no you must use gut(!) nonsense. That's correct, it isn't nonsense. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Curiously, the small seems to be set up for 1x1, 5x2 on the fingerboard: http://quality1trader.co.uk/musical-instrument/strings/lute/theorbo-bass-lute/ Their instrument descriptions appear to be cut and pasted from the Barber Harris website. their string lengths for the small and medium correspond respectively to BH's tiorbino and theorboed guitars Awfully curious - I was already amazed enough that they were making baroque guitars, but tiorbini and chittare attiorbate as well? I was under the impression that these were extremely niche instruments. Is there enough of a market for these? Edward C. Yong ky...@pacific.net.sg On 29 Aug 2011, at 4:14 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: On 29 August 2011 07:44, Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net wrote: eBay, Ouality1traders, theorbo bass lute, small. I know I'm going to be vilified, but their medium, which goes out of stock fast, is the one of my I suppose you're talking about this: http://quality1trader.co.uk/musical-instrument/strings/lute/theorbo-bass-lute-medium/ It's not a theorbo but a theorboed guitar. An interesting instrument but it has a very limited repertoire. It has been the point of a recent discussion on this list. With the current setup of 1x1, 4x2 on the fingerboard and 9x1 diapassons you'll have trouble setting it up as a theorbo (you'll need to adapt both bridge and nut, and bridge might not be wide enough for the extra holes). Diapasson length of 104cm would just be enough for plain gut, but nylon won't work. Metal wounds will do, but you'll have to adopt your technique to stop them from buzzing on forever. Caveat emptor. David *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
On 29 August 2011 10:41, Edward C. Yong ky...@pacific.net.sg wrote: guitars, but tiorbini and chittare attiorbate as well? I was under the It's my guess that they happen to have drawings of these instruments without really knowing what they are. Calling them theorbos can be a bit of a disappointment for the inexperienced buyer. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's) description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It even comes with Fontanelli's music! David - enough of this nonsense, back to work -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I suppose you're talking about this: http://quality1trader.co.uk/musical-instrument/strings/lute/theorbo-bass-lut e- medium/ You can watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNJaYInbbhs Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Mathias, Absolutely! That's why I add those ridiculous punctuation smiley-faces... :-) No aggression here... No soapbox either. :-) My apologies if you were offended. Besides, I'm a yank living in the woods in Michigan, so don't be expecting too much... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 4:14 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Garry, Do as you please and mind your bizz. Everybody does, me included. I have gut strings for basses because I like their short impulse and their quick fading. I don't like overwound nylon strings, ringing on and on, forcing players to stop them. Full stop. What I was reacting to, was the word nonsense. Your would-be hilarious-lute string police comes in the same vein. Casual remarks, probably, and not meant to be disparaging. Sorry for overreacting. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Yes, fundamentally! aka French lute, etc... Lovely, ain't it... :-) And I can tune it as I please, although there is some very nice stuff written for it as tuned. Great link, thank you! Garry -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:36 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? I suppose you're talking about this: http://quality1trader.co.uk/musical-instrument/strings/lute/theorbo-bass-lut e- medium/ You can watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNJaYInbbhs Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Not to be argumentative, but... :-) I spent over 25 years building and playing classic guitars, and this theorobed guitar is a member of the lute family, beyond doubt... But, call it as you will, and no doubt Stephen and Sandi are correct looking from their background. This stuff greatly depends upon which expert is looking at it... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's) description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It even comes with Fontanelli's music! David - enough of this nonsense, back to work -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
The point is, it has only five courses on the fingerboard. Playing any kind of lute or theorbo music on it would mean redrilling the bridge to accomodate six, hazardous enough on a 'decent' instrument, but I'm not sure this one will be up to it. David On 29 August 2011 15:17, Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net wrote: Not to be argumentative, but... :-) I spent over 25 years building and playing classic guitars, and this theorobed guitar is a member of the lute family, beyond doubt... But, call it as you will, and no doubt Stephen and Sandi are correct looking from their background. This stuff greatly depends upon which expert is looking at it... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's) description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It even comes with Fontanelli's music! David - enough of this nonsense, back to work -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Oh boy, here we go... There is a lot of music that can be played upon it... When's the last time you fingered a note below the fifth course? ANYWAY, I retired completely from the guitar world, gave all my instruments and such to my granddaughter, and left because of burn out on the instrument. A lot of the burn out was caused by this kind of stuff, which can be tiresome. I always loved lute, so I got one of the travel lutes for a quiet instrument, and I love the thing! Got out my old Poultan method (written for a six-course, by the way) and enjoy music again. I can't build a lute for what it cost to buy, and I have the tools already. I'll be tickled pink when I can get one of the el-cheapo thorobo bass lute, medium, because it sounds great. I call my banjo-y travel lute my thrown-together lute, and it helps a lot to be capable of adjusting actions, etc. myself, because it required some... But, it PLAYS AND SOUNDS good. Sorry for the caps, I read that's shouting on the web; I hope your hearing wasn't damaged... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:43 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The point is, it has only five courses on the fingerboard. Playing any kind of lute or theorbo music on it would mean redrilling the bridge to accomodate six, hazardous enough on a 'decent' instrument, but I'm not sure this one will be up to it. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Another point for modern versions of these extended neck diapason burdened instruments- modern builders know how fickle, indecisive, and variable are the needs of us modern players; it is a simple matter to have in place pre-drilled extra bridge holes, long enough nut to accommodate at least one more course, plenty of pegs at both pegboxes. So many theorbi, arciliuti, etc. can be set up as 6 x 8, 8 x 6, 7 x 7, single or double courses. You pick your strings and play around until you have the best set-up. I'm still playing around with my own archlute, part of the fun. No reason this thing couldn't also be set up to go as a 6 x 8 as easily as the original 5 x 9. In fact, just went back and looked at the one Rob is playing- guess what? 11 pegs in the lower pegbox. It actually isn't that hard to drill a few holes in the bridge, (done it myself- 8ve string hole at the 8th course to make my archlute 8 x 6) but of course great care precision are called for. Remember the bow drill used for just that purpose posted here a few weeks ago? Dan- more nonsense, don't want to go back to work. __ From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 9:43:50 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The point is, it has only five courses on the fingerboard. Playing any kind of lute or theorbo music on it would mean redrilling the bridge to accomodate six, hazardous enough on a 'decent' instrument, but I'm not sure this one will be up to it. David On 29 August 2011 15:17, Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net wrote: Not to be argumentative, but... :-) I spent over 25 years building and playing classic guitars, and this theorobed guitar is a member of the lute family, beyond doubt... But, call it as you will, and no doubt Stephen and Sandi are correct looking from their background. This stuff greatly depends upon which expert is looking at it... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's) description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It even comes with Fontanelli's music! David - enough of this nonsense, back to work -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** --
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Plugging and re-drilling a bridge to suit whatever configuration a player has need of seems commonplace enough. If a re-drill isn't practical, an all-out and appropriately drilled replacement is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of luthier labor. If anything, these tweaks/fixes are probably more necessary to the baser entry-level instruments and can often improve them. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:44 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? The point is, it has only five courses on the fingerboard. Playing any kind of lute or theorbo music on it would mean redrilling the bridge to accomodate six, hazardous enough on a 'decent' instrument, but I'm not sure this one will be up to it. David On 29 August 2011 15:17, Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net wrote: Not to be argumentative, but... :-) I spent over 25 years building and playing classic guitars, and this theorobed guitar is a member of the lute family, beyond doubt... But, call it as you will, and no doubt Stephen and Sandi are correct looking from their background. This stuff greatly depends upon which expert is looking at it... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: David van Ooijen Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 5:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Their tiorbino (Theorbo Bass Lute small ...) has (Stephen and Sandi's) description of the theorbood guitar (Theorbo Bass Lute medium). It even comes with Fontanelli's music! David - enough of this nonsense, back to work -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I'm thinking theorbo purchase... Where does one get a nylon theorbo 14-course string set? I measured my 8-course lute strings, which went from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short... Please, no you must use gut(!) nonsense. That's correct, it isn't nonsense. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
On Aug 28, 2011, at 2:29 PM, Garry Warber wrote: I'm thinking theorbo purchase... Where does one get a nylon theorbo 14-course string set? Never mind the strings; where did you find a nylon theorbo? I measured my 8-course lute strings, which went from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short... Please, no you must use gut(!) nonsense. Are theorbo strings bought individually? Please name sources, if possible. Yes, you should buy the strings individually. Lutes and theorbos are not standard lengths, so an all-purpose set of them, such as you can buy for a guitar, makes no sense. Any instrument you buy should have strings already on it, so if the seller can tell you what they are, you can make changes as it suits you. And BTW, for long theorbo basses, gut works fabulously well and lasts forever. You can find a list of string makers/sellers here: http://www.unm.edu/~ctdbach/music/lute_strings.html Has anyone done business Chris Henriksen/Boston Catlines lately? I was once very satisfied dealing with him, but I don't think I've actually bought any strings in this century, and now that I finally need new ones, I feel like a string virgin again. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Has anyone done business Chris Henriksen/Boston Catlines lately? I was once very satisfied dealing with him, but I don't think I've actually bought any strings in this century, and now that I finally need new ones, I feel like a string virgin again. I buy strings from him all the time (e.g. such as at the recent Boston Early Music Festival). Superb quality of service. On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 5:52 PM, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: On Aug 28, 2011, at 2:29 PM, Garry Warber wrote: I'm thinking theorbo purchase... Where does one get a nylon theorbo 14-course string set? Never mind the strings; where did you find a nylon theorbo? I measured my 8-course lute strings, which went from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short... Please, no you must use gut(!) nonsense. Are theorbo strings bought individually? Please name sources, if possible. Yes, you should buy the strings individually. Lutes and theorbos are not standard lengths, so an all-purpose set of them, such as you can buy for a guitar, makes no sense. Any instrument you buy should have strings already on it, so if the seller can tell you what they are, you can make changes as it suits you. And BTW, for long theorbo basses, gut works fabulously well and lasts forever. You can find a list of string makers/sellers here: [2]http://www.unm.edu/~ctdbach/music/lute_strings.html Has anyone done business Chris Henriksen/Boston Catlines lately? I was once very satisfied dealing with him, but I don't think I've actually bought any strings in this century, and now that I finally need new ones, I feel like a string virgin again. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. http://www.unm.edu/~ctdbach/music/lute_strings.html 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Hi Garry, Bernd Kuerschner has nylon strings up to 180cm. As well as carbon(pvf) and gut More info at www.kuerschner-saiten.de Cheers Op 28 aug 2011, om 23:29 heeft Garry Warber het volgende geschreven: I'm thinking theorbo purchase... Where does one get a nylon theorbo 14-course string set? I measured my 8-course lute strings, which went from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short... Please, no you must use gut(!) nonsense. Are theorbo strings bought individually? Please name sources, if possible. Garry -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
I also very highly recommend Chris Henriksen of Boston Catlines. I got strings from him earlier this year and have been dealing with him forever. He's not tied down to any one source (I've gotten everything from gut, to carbon, nylon, nylgut, new nylgut, and perhaps someday neonuovonylgut) He is a professional performer on all the usual instruments himself (recording concert artist) and has been putting sets of strings together for decades. The only other source I go to is Dan Larson, almost exclusively for his gut. Also recommended- and he has a great online string calculator program: http://www.gamutstrings.com/calculators/calculator.htm And his homepage: http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/ Have fun, don't go too broke. Dan __ From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 2:52:02 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? On Aug 28, 2011, at 2:29 PM, Garry Warber wrote: I'm thinking theorbo purchase... Where does one get a nylon theorbo 14-course string set? Never mind the strings; where did you find a nylon theorbo? I measured my 8-course lute strings, which went from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short... Please, no you must use gut(!) nonsense. Are theorbo strings bought individually? Please name sources, if possible. Yes, you should buy the strings individually. Lutes and theorbos are not standard lengths, so an all-purpose set of them, such as you can buy for a guitar, makes no sense. Any instrument you buy should have strings already on it, so if the seller can tell you what they are, you can make changes as it suits you. And BTW, for long theorbo basses, gut works fabulously well and lasts forever. You can find a list of string makers/sellers here: http://www.unm.edu/~ctdbach/music/lute_strings.html Has anyone done business Chris Henriksen/Boston Catlines lately? I was once very satisfied dealing with him, but I don't think I've actually bought any strings in this century, and now that I finally need new ones, I feel like a string virgin again. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Correct to you... :-) What I play in the privacy of my own home is my business. Now I have to deal with lute-string police too? Grammar police I'm used to... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Mathias Rösel Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:47 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? I'm thinking theorbo purchase... Where does one get a nylon theorbo 14-course string set? I measured my 8-course lute strings, which went from 100cm to 110cm; obliviously too short... Please, no you must use gut(!) nonsense. That's correct, it isn't nonsense. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
Thank you. Don't go too broke is the key reason I like nylon over gut... One of several; the rest are personal choices. I guess I could try Boston Catlines again, in the future. He totally ignored my inquiries several years ago on strings, but just the once... :-) Another chance may be in order. Garry -Original Message- From: dwinh...@comcast.net Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 10:19 PM To: howard posner Cc: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? I also very highly recommend Chris Henriksen of Boston Catlines. Have fun, don't go too broke. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: long strings?
You seem a nice guy, and not in a rut... Check out this toy theorbo. eBay, Ouality1traders, theorbo bass lute, small. I know I'm going to be vilified, but their medium, which goes out of stock fast, is the one of my interest. It was the small but the darn thing is the same size, almost, as my lute, and therefor the sound difference wasn't worth the money to me... The medium, however... :-) Yes, they are off-shore manufacture, Pakistan actually, but don't tell anyone and it will be alright... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: howard posner Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 1:17 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? On Aug 28, 2011, at 9:11 PM, Garry Warber wrote: You can find anything on eBay now -a-days... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: howard posner Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 5:52 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? On Aug 28, 2011, at 2:29 PM, Garry Warber wrote: I'm thinking theorbo purchase... Where does one get a nylon theorbo 14-course string set? Never mind the strings; where did you find a nylon theorbo? Of course, it occurs to me that the synthetic construction materials are the sure sign of [dramatic pause] A toy theorbo! [rimshot!]. Oh, never mind -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
