Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Pavel Sanda]

Richman Reuven wrote:
 speaking audience ^^* i'm having a little trouble with gtranslator, the
 display src file starts within the po/ folder of the cvs and doesn't
 work automatically (any idea how to set it's root folder?)

no idea about gtranslator. some people successfully use poedit.
but its normal text file, so normal terminal editors like
vim or emacs will do the job as well when you have UTF-8
capable terminal...

and lots of
 stuff really isn't clear like this ^^*

i dont see these. maybe you can try to swith to another editor?

 i'll try to add significantly
 more during the next couple of week (if i'm at home from uni), i hope it
 won't be too late (hopefully the russian translation will catchup a
 little so that i'll have to do less dirty work... ^^*)

that would be nice. i plan to strip poorly supported .po files from
distribution not sooner than at the end of march.

for this moment i put your translation update into the tree. please
send us GPL permission statement to dev list
(like this one: http://marc.info/?l=lyx-develm=128485749516885 )
i'll add you to the credits then.

pavel

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Pavel Sanda]

Richman Reuven wrote:
> speaking audience ^^* i'm having a little trouble with gtranslator, the
> display src file starts within the po/ folder of the cvs and doesn't
> work automatically (any idea how to set it's root folder?)

no idea about gtranslator. some people successfully use poedit.
but its normal text file, so normal terminal editors like
vim or emacs will do the job as well when you have UTF-8
capable terminal...

>and lots of
> stuff really isn't clear like this ^^*

i dont see these. maybe you can try to swith to another editor?

> i'll try to add significantly
> more during the next couple of week (if i'm at home from uni), i hope it
> won't be too late (hopefully the russian translation will catchup a
> little so that i'll have to do less dirty work... ^^*)

that would be nice. i plan to strip poorly supported .po files from
distribution not sooner than at the end of march.

for this moment i put your translation update into the tree. please
send us GPL permission statement to dev list
(like this one: http://marc.info/?l=lyx-devel=128485749516885 )
i'll add you to the credits then.

pavel

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Pavel Sanda]

Richman Reuven wrote:
 i hope it's not too late into the release process to be reporting
 this... :S

please create bugzilla reports, either with recipy to reproduce
or with attached problematic .lyx files.
pavel

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Pavel Sanda]

Richman Reuven wrote:
> i hope it's not too late into the release process to be reporting
> this... :S

please create bugzilla reports, either with recipy to reproduce
or with attached problematic .lyx files.
pavel

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Richman Reuven]

sorry for the delay, i was away, i hope it's not too late:

(installing lyx using yum)
$ yum --version xetex
3.2.28
  Installed: rpm-4.8.1-5.fc14.i686 at 2011-02-07 23:02
  Built: Fedora Project at 2010-08-10 07:43
  Committed: Panu Matilainen pmati...@redhat.com at 2010-08-10

  Installed: yum-3.2.28-5.fc14.noarch at 2011-02-07 23:04
  Built: Fedora Project at 2010-10-05 13:03
  Committed: Seth Vidal skvidal at fedoraproject.org at 2010-10-05

i tried some basic documents with hebrew:

both the following for the standard article class (following the normal
recommendations for setting up culmus fonts for lyx and the keybord
input switching using f12:
% Preview source code

%% LyX 2.0.0beta3 created this file.  For more info, see
http://www.lyx.org/.
%% Do not edit unless you really know what you are doing.
\documentclass[hebrew,english]{article}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[cp1255,latin9]{inputenc}
\usepackage{babel}
\begin{document}
\inputencoding{cp1255}%
\inputencoding{latin9}a\inputencoding{cp1255}\R{ש}
\end{document}
and for the hebrew article type with the default document language set
for hebrew:
% Preview source code

%% LyX 2.0.0beta3 created this file.  For more info, see
http://www.lyx.org/.
%% Do not edit unless you really know what you are doing.
\documentclass[english,hebrew]{article}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[latin9,cp1255]{inputenc}

\makeatletter
%% Textclass specific LaTeX
commands.
\usepackage{theorem}
\theorembodyfont{\upshape}
\newtheorem{theorem}{\R{משפט}}[section]
\AtBeginDocument{\make@lr\thetheorem}

\makeatother

\usepackage{babel}
\begin{document}
ש\inputencoding{latin9}\L{a}
\end{document}
generate a preview pdf with only the english 'a' (the second example has
it aligned tot he right of the page as it should) and the hebrew font
doesn't show at all :(

(it's kinda odd btw that the second example show a non default lyx
environment as it's what lyx itself shows)

this is as you can see lyx2.0.0beta3 on fedora 14 (with
2.6.35.10-74.fc14.i686, if you want to know specific pacakges i'd be
happy to provide) the viewer is evince 2.32.0 which doesn't seem to have
any problems showing documents with hebrew fonts :S

the second log looks something like:
This is pdfTeXk, Version 3.141592-1.40.3 (Web2C 7.5.6)
(format=pdflatex 2011.2.8)  16 FEB 2011 22:41
entering extended mode
 %-line parsing enabled.
**newfile1.tex
(./newfile1.tex
LaTeX2e 2005/12/01
Babel v3.8h and hyphenation patterns for english,
usenglishmax, dumylang, noh
yphenation, arabic, basque, bulgarian, coptic, welsh, czech,
slovak, german, ng
erman, danish, esperanto, spanish, catalan, galician, estonian,
farsi, finnish,
 french, greek, monogreek, ancientgreek, croatian, hungarian,
interlingua, ibyc
us, indonesian, icelandic, italian, latin, mongolian, dutch,
norsk, polish, por
tuguese, pinyin, romanian, russian, slovenian, uppersorbian,
serbian, swedish, 
turkish, ukenglish, ukrainian, loaded.

(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/article.cls
Document Class: article 2005/09/16 v1.4f Standard LaTeX document
class
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/size10.clo
File: size10.clo 2005/09/16 v1.4f Standard LaTeX file (size
option)
)
\c@part=\count79
\c@section=\count80
\c@subsection=\count81
\c@subsubsection=\count82
\c@paragraph=\count83
\c@subparagraph=\count84
\c@figure=\count85
\c@table=\count86
\abovecaptionskip=\skip41
\belowcaptionskip=\skip42
\bibindent=\dimen102
) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/fontenc.sty
Package: fontenc 2005/09/27 v1.99g Standard LaTeX package
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/t1enc.def
File: t1enc.def 2005/09/27 v1.99g Standard LaTeX file
LaTeX Font Info:Redeclaring font encoding T1 on input line
43.
)) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/inputenc.sty
Package: inputenc 2006/05/05 v1.1b Input encoding file
\inpenc@prehook=\toks14
\inpenc@posthook=\toks15
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/latin9.def
File: latin9.def 2006/05/05 v1.1b Input encoding file
) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/generic/babel/cp1255.def
File: cp1255.def 2004/02/20 v1.1b Hebrew input encoding file
)) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/tools/theorem.sty
Package: theorem 1995/11/23 v2.2c Theorem extension package
(FMi)
\theorem@style=\toks16

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Richman Reuven]

sorry in the previous mail i thought i included it...

Name: tex-fonts-hebrew
Arch: noarch
Version : 0.1
Release : 14.fc12
Size: 222 k
Repo: installed
From repo   : fedora
Summary : Culmus Hebrew fonts support for LaTeX
URL : http://culmus.sf.net
License : GPL+ and LPPL
Description : Support using the Culmus Hebrew fonts in LaTeX.

Name: tex-preview
Arch: noarch
Version : 11.86
Release : 4.fc14
Size: 161 k
Repo: installed
From repo   : fedora
Summary : Preview style files for LaTeX
URL : http://www.gnu.org/software/auctex/
License : GPLv3+
Description : The preview package for LaTeX allows for the
processing of selected
: parts of a LaTeX input file.  This package
extracts indicated pieces
: from a source file (typically displayed equations,
figures and
: graphics) and typesets with their base point at
the (1in,1in) magic
: location, shipping out the individual pieces on
separate pages without
: any page markup.  You can produce either DVI or
PDF files, and options
: exist that will set the page size separately for
each page.  In that
: manner, further processing (as with Ghostscript or
dvipng) will be
: able to work in a single pass.
: 
: The main purpose of this package is the extraction
of certain
: environments (most notably displayed formulas)
from LaTeX sources as
: graphics. This works with DVI files postprocessed
by either Dvips and
: Ghostscript or dvipng, but it also works when you
are using PDFTeX for
: generating PDF files (usually also postprocessed
by Ghostscript).
: 
: The tex-preview package is generated from the
AUCTeX package for
: Emacs.

Name: tex-simplecv
Arch: noarch
Version : 1.6
Release : 8.fc12
Size: 5.4 k
Repo: installed
From repo   : fedora
Summary : A simple latex class for writing curricula vitae
URL :
http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/simplecv/
License : LPPL
Description : The simplecv document class is intended to provide
a simple yet
: elegant way to write your curriculum vitae
(resume). This is a
: repackaging of the |cv| class that has been
available with LyX for a
: long time. The change of name has been made
necessary by the existence
: of another |cv| class on CTAN.

Name: texinfo
Arch: i686
Version : 4.13a
Release : 13.fc14
Size: 1.9 M
Repo: installed
From repo   : updates
Summary : Tools needed to create Texinfo format
documentation files
URL : http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/
License : GPLv3+
Description : Texinfo is a documentation system that can produce
both online
: information and printed output from a single
source file. The GNU
: Project uses the Texinfo file format for most of
its documentation.
: 
: Install texinfo if you want a documentation system
for producing both
: online and print documentation from the same
source file and/or if you
: are going to write documentation for the GNU
Project.

Name: texlive
Arch: i686
Version : 2007
Release : 56.fc14
Size: 3.9 M
Repo: installed
From repo   : fedora
Summary : Binaries for the TeX formatting system
URL : http://tug.org/texlive/
License : GPLv2 and BSD and Public Domain and LGPLv2+ and
GPLv2+ and LPPL
Description : TeXLive is an implementation of TeX for Linux or
UNIX systems. TeX takes
: a text file and a set of formatting commands as
input and creates a
: printable file as output. Usually, TeX is used in
conjunction with
: a higher level formatting package like LaTeX or
PlainTeX, since TeX by
: 

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Richman Reuven]

sorry for the delay, i was away, i hope it's not too late:

(installing lyx using yum)
$ yum --version xetex
3.2.28
  Installed: rpm-4.8.1-5.fc14.i686 at 2011-02-07 23:02
  Built: Fedora Project at 2010-08-10 07:43
  Committed: Panu Matilainen  at 2010-08-10

  Installed: yum-3.2.28-5.fc14.noarch at 2011-02-07 23:04
  Built: Fedora Project at 2010-10-05 13:03
  Committed: Seth Vidal  at 2010-10-05

i tried some basic documents with hebrew:

both the following for the standard article class (following the normal
recommendations for setting up culmus fonts for lyx and the keybord
input switching using f12:
% Preview source code

%% LyX 2.0.0beta3 created this file.  For more info, see
http://www.lyx.org/.
%% Do not edit unless you really know what you are doing.
\documentclass[hebrew,english]{article}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[cp1255,latin9]{inputenc}
\usepackage{babel}
\begin{document}
\inputencoding{cp1255}%
\inputencoding{latin9}a\inputencoding{cp1255}\R{ש}
\end{document}
and for the hebrew article type with the default document language set
for hebrew:
% Preview source code

%% LyX 2.0.0beta3 created this file.  For more info, see
http://www.lyx.org/.
%% Do not edit unless you really know what you are doing.
\documentclass[english,hebrew]{article}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[latin9,cp1255]{inputenc}

\makeatletter
%% Textclass specific LaTeX
commands.
\usepackage{theorem}
\theorembodyfont{\upshape}
\newtheorem{theorem}{\R{משפט}}[section]
\AtBeginDocument{\make@lr\thetheorem}

\makeatother

\usepackage{babel}
\begin{document}
ש\inputencoding{latin9}\L{a}
\end{document}
generate a preview pdf with only the english 'a' (the second example has
it aligned tot he right of the page as it should) and the hebrew font
doesn't show at all :(

(it's kinda odd btw that the second example show a non default lyx
environment as it's what lyx itself shows)

this is as you can see lyx2.0.0beta3 on fedora 14 (with
2.6.35.10-74.fc14.i686, if you want to know specific pacakges i'd be
happy to provide) the viewer is evince 2.32.0 which doesn't seem to have
any problems showing documents with hebrew fonts :S

the second log looks something like:
This is pdfTeXk, Version 3.141592-1.40.3 (Web2C 7.5.6)
(format=pdflatex 2011.2.8)  16 FEB 2011 22:41
entering extended mode
 %&-line parsing enabled.
**newfile1.tex
(./newfile1.tex
LaTeX2e <2005/12/01>
Babel  and hyphenation patterns for english,
usenglishmax, dumylang, noh
yphenation, arabic, basque, bulgarian, coptic, welsh, czech,
slovak, german, ng
erman, danish, esperanto, spanish, catalan, galician, estonian,
farsi, finnish,
 french, greek, monogreek, ancientgreek, croatian, hungarian,
interlingua, ibyc
us, indonesian, icelandic, italian, latin, mongolian, dutch,
norsk, polish, por
tuguese, pinyin, romanian, russian, slovenian, uppersorbian,
serbian, swedish, 
turkish, ukenglish, ukrainian, loaded.

(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/article.cls
Document Class: article 2005/09/16 v1.4f Standard LaTeX document
class
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/size10.clo
File: size10.clo 2005/09/16 v1.4f Standard LaTeX file (size
option)
)
\c@part=\count79
\c@section=\count80
\c@subsection=\count81
\c@subsubsection=\count82
\c@paragraph=\count83
\c@subparagraph=\count84
\c@figure=\count85
\c@table=\count86
\abovecaptionskip=\skip41
\belowcaptionskip=\skip42
\bibindent=\dimen102
) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/fontenc.sty
Package: fontenc 2005/09/27 v1.99g Standard LaTeX package
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/t1enc.def
File: t1enc.def 2005/09/27 v1.99g Standard LaTeX file
LaTeX Font Info:Redeclaring font encoding T1 on input line
43.
)) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/inputenc.sty
Package: inputenc 2006/05/05 v1.1b Input encoding file
\inpenc@prehook=\toks14
\inpenc@posthook=\toks15
(/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/base/latin9.def
File: latin9.def 2006/05/05 v1.1b Input encoding file
) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/generic/babel/cp1255.def
File: cp1255.def 2004/02/20 v1.1b Hebrew input encoding file
)) (/usr/share/texmf/tex/latex/tools/theorem.sty
Package: theorem 1995/11/23 v2.2c Theorem extension package
(FMi)
\theorem@style=\toks16
\theorem@bodyfont=\toks17

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Richman Reuven]

sorry in the previous mail i thought i included it...

Name: tex-fonts-hebrew
Arch: noarch
Version : 0.1
Release : 14.fc12
Size: 222 k
Repo: installed
From repo   : fedora
Summary : Culmus Hebrew fonts support for LaTeX
URL : http://culmus.sf.net
License : GPL+ and LPPL
Description : Support using the Culmus Hebrew fonts in LaTeX.

Name: tex-preview
Arch: noarch
Version : 11.86
Release : 4.fc14
Size: 161 k
Repo: installed
From repo   : fedora
Summary : Preview style files for LaTeX
URL : http://www.gnu.org/software/auctex/
License : GPLv3+
Description : The preview package for LaTeX allows for the
processing of selected
: parts of a LaTeX input file.  This package
extracts indicated pieces
: from a source file (typically displayed equations,
figures and
: graphics) and typesets with their base point at
the (1in,1in) magic
: location, shipping out the individual pieces on
separate pages without
: any page markup.  You can produce either DVI or
PDF files, and options
: exist that will set the page size separately for
each page.  In that
: manner, further processing (as with Ghostscript or
dvipng) will be
: able to work in a single pass.
: 
: The main purpose of this package is the extraction
of certain
: environments (most notably displayed formulas)
from LaTeX sources as
: graphics. This works with DVI files postprocessed
by either Dvips and
: Ghostscript or dvipng, but it also works when you
are using PDFTeX for
: generating PDF files (usually also postprocessed
by Ghostscript).
: 
: The tex-preview package is generated from the
AUCTeX package for
: Emacs.

Name: tex-simplecv
Arch: noarch
Version : 1.6
Release : 8.fc12
Size: 5.4 k
Repo: installed
From repo   : fedora
Summary : A simple latex class for writing curricula vitae
URL :
http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/simplecv/
License : LPPL
Description : The simplecv document class is intended to provide
a simple yet
: elegant way to write your curriculum vitae
(resume). This is a
: repackaging of the |cv| class that has been
available with LyX for a
: long time. The change of name has been made
necessary by the existence
: of another |cv| class on CTAN.

Name: texinfo
Arch: i686
Version : 4.13a
Release : 13.fc14
Size: 1.9 M
Repo: installed
From repo   : updates
Summary : Tools needed to create Texinfo format
documentation files
URL : http://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/
License : GPLv3+
Description : Texinfo is a documentation system that can produce
both online
: information and printed output from a single
source file. The GNU
: Project uses the Texinfo file format for most of
its documentation.
: 
: Install texinfo if you want a documentation system
for producing both
: online and print documentation from the same
source file and/or if you
: are going to write documentation for the GNU
Project.

Name: texlive
Arch: i686
Version : 2007
Release : 56.fc14
Size: 3.9 M
Repo: installed
From repo   : fedora
Summary : Binaries for the TeX formatting system
URL : http://tug.org/texlive/
License : GPLv2 and BSD and Public Domain and LGPLv2+ and
GPLv2+ and LPPL
Description : TeXLive is an implementation of TeX for Linux or
UNIX systems. TeX takes
: a text file and a set of formatting commands as
input and creates a
: printable file as output. Usually, TeX is used in
conjunction with
: a higher level formatting package like LaTeX or
PlainTeX, since TeX by
: 

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Pavel Sanda]

Richman Reuven wrote:
 hi, i can't seem to find any info on possible changes of hebrew support
 in the new version (2.0), was there something supposed to happen? (i'd
 gladly test it if i knew what to look for)

by the way, the hebrew translation of user interface is going to be killed for 
2.0
if nobody sends updated .po files. consider to help with keeping it up-to-date
if you have some spare time.

http://www.lyx.org/I18n-trunk
http://www.lyx.org/trac/browser/lyx-devel/trunk/README.localization

pavel

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Pavel Sanda]

Richman Reuven wrote:
> hi, i can't seem to find any info on possible changes of hebrew support
> in the new version (2.0), was there something supposed to happen? (i'd
> gladly test it if i knew what to look for)

by the way, the hebrew translation of user interface is going to be killed for 
2.0
if nobody sends updated .po files. consider to help with keeping it up-to-date
if you have some spare time.

http://www.lyx.org/I18n-trunk
http://www.lyx.org/trac/browser/lyx-devel/trunk/README.localization

pavel

hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Richman Reuven]

hi, i can't seem to find any info on possible changes of hebrew support
in the new version (2.0), was there something supposed to happen? (i'd
gladly test it if i knew what to look for)

thanks,
reuven r.

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Pavel Sanda]

Richman Reuven wrote:
 hi, i can't seem to find any info on possible changes of hebrew support
 in the new version (2.0), was there something supposed to happen? (i'd
 gladly test it if i knew what to look for)

the thing which could be good to test is that all hebrew stuff you used in 1.6
still works in 2.0. no new particular hebrew features were done, but some
additions like xetex support might have some impact.

pavel

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Richman Reuven
richman.reu...@gmail.com wrote:
 hi, i can't seem to find any info on possible changes of hebrew support
 in the new version (2.0), was there something supposed to happen? (i'd
 gladly test it if i knew what to look for)



If you like to bughunt: http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/7097.

Vincent

hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Richman Reuven]

hi, i can't seem to find any info on possible changes of hebrew support
in the new version (2.0), was there something supposed to happen? (i'd
gladly test it if i knew what to look for)

thanks,
reuven r.

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Pavel Sanda]

Richman Reuven wrote:
> hi, i can't seem to find any info on possible changes of hebrew support
> in the new version (2.0), was there something supposed to happen? (i'd
> gladly test it if i knew what to look for)

the thing which could be good to test is that all hebrew stuff you used in 1.6
still works in 2.0. no new particular hebrew features were done, but some
additions like xetex support might have some impact.

pavel

Re: hebrew support in lyx 2.0?

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Richman Reuven
 wrote:
> hi, i can't seem to find any info on possible changes of hebrew support
> in the new version (2.0), was there something supposed to happen? (i'd
> gladly test it if i knew what to look for)
>
>

If you like to bughunt: http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/7097.

Vincent

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Shigeru Miyata]

"Seak, Teng-Fong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  TTB_RTL (for Chinese, Japanese, etc.) and TTB_LTR (for Mongolian)
  primitives.
 
  Actually, there's another possible solution (or even simpler): rotate all
 characters to the left by 90:-)  but only if it's supported by LaTeX.  If this is
 supported, we just need to type in LTR then TTB and after rotation, the text will be
 TTB then RTL.

LaTeX need not support this at all.  You have only to use the rotated
fonts.
CJKvert.sty is designed to use this.

  But I'm not sure if LaTeX supports already double-byte encoding, so I'm not
 going to ask this question in the newsgroup for the moment.

There are essentially two ways to support double-byte encodings.  One is
to
use special TeX compilers whose internal string representation is 16
bit.
These compilers have "Translation Process" for reading byte streams of
input
files so that the TeX proper will receive wide character string instead
of
byte streams.  pTeX can read Japanese multibyte encodings, hTeX can read
Korean, and omega can read anything as far as you have an appropriate
.ocp
(Omega Compiled translation Process:  There already is a Big5 .ocp but
no
one has written Japanese/Korean .ocp yet).
The other way is to use the catcode magic.  If you set the multibyte
system
leading bytes as active characters, then TeX considers each multibyte
character a command macro which selects a character in a font (256
each).
So then, if you have divided multibyte character fonts into smaller
pieces
beforehand, the ordinary TeX can process multibyte encoded source files.
This approach is taken by the CJK macro package.  You are more likely to
see the TeX stack exhausted errors, though.

Regards,
SMiyata

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Shigeru Miyata]

"Seak, Teng-Fong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > TTB_RTL (for Chinese, Japanese, etc.) and TTB_LTR (for Mongolian)
> > primitives.
> 
>  Actually, there's another possible solution (or even simpler): rotate all
> characters to the left by 90:-)  but only if it's supported by LaTeX.  If this is
> supported, we just need to type in LTR then TTB and after rotation, the text will be
> TTB then RTL.

LaTeX need not support this at all.  You have only to use the rotated
fonts.
CJKvert.sty is designed to use this.

>  But I'm not sure if LaTeX supports already double-byte encoding, so I'm not
> going to ask this question in the newsgroup for the moment.

There are essentially two ways to support double-byte encodings.  One is
to
use special TeX compilers whose internal string representation is 16
bit.
These compilers have "Translation Process" for reading byte streams of
input
files so that the TeX proper will receive wide character string instead
of
byte streams.  pTeX can read Japanese multibyte encodings, hTeX can read
Korean, and omega can read anything as far as you have an appropriate
.ocp
(Omega Compiled translation Process:  There already is a Big5 .ocp but
no
one has written Japanese/Korean .ocp yet).
The other way is to use the catcode magic.  If you set the multibyte
system
leading bytes as active characters, then TeX considers each multibyte
character a command macro which selects a character in a font (256
each).
So then, if you have divided multibyte character fonts into smaller
pieces
beforehand, the ordinary TeX can process multibyte encoded source files.
This approach is taken by the CJK macro package.  You are more likely to
see the TeX stack exhausted errors, though.

Regards,
SMiyata

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Seak, Teng-Fong]

Shigeru Miyata wrote:

 "Seak, Teng-Fong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Chinese (as well as Japanese and Korean) can also be written from right to
  left, even though this isn't very common nowadays.  Actually, in tradition,
  Chinese is written from top to the bottom, then from right to left.  But I
  don't think Latex is able to support this :-)

 Theoretically speaking it is of course possible.  However, dimensions
 [deleted]
 TTB_RTL (for Chinese, Japanese, etc.) and TTB_LTR (for Mongolian)
 primitives.

 Actually, there's another possible solution (or even simpler): rotate all
characters to the left by 90° :-)  but only if it's supported by LaTeX.  If this is
supported, we just need to type in LTR then TTB and after rotation, the text will be
TTB then RTL.

 But I'm not sure if LaTeX supports already double-byte encoding, so I'm not
going to ask this question in the newsgroup for the moment.

 Seak

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Seak, Teng-Fong]

Shigeru Miyata wrote:

> "Seak, Teng-Fong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >  Chinese (as well as Japanese and Korean) can also be written from right to
> > left, even though this isn't very common nowadays.  Actually, in tradition,
> > Chinese is written from top to the bottom, then from right to left.  But I
> > don't think Latex is able to support this :-)
>
> Theoretically speaking it is of course possible.  However, dimensions
> [deleted]
> TTB_RTL (for Chinese, Japanese, etc.) and TTB_LTR (for Mongolian)
> primitives.

 Actually, there's another possible solution (or even simpler): rotate all
characters to the left by 90° :-)  but only if it's supported by LaTeX.  If this is
supported, we just need to type in LTR then TTB and after rotation, the text will be
TTB then RTL.

 But I'm not sure if LaTeX supports already double-byte encoding, so I'm not
going to ask this question in the newsgroup for the moment.

 Seak

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Shigeru Miyata]

"Seak, Teng-Fong" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Chinese (as well as Japanese and Korean) can also be written from right to
 left, even though this isn't very common nowadays.  Actually, in tradition,
 Chinese is written from top to the bottom, then from right to left.  But I
 don't think Latex is able to support this :-)

Theoretically speaking it is of course possible.  However, dimensions
and
other TeX registers are scarce resources and if you implement vertical
typesetting only by macros, then you are more likely to encounter
"TeX capacity exceeded..." errors.  But you can check arabtex macro
package where RTL typesetter is implemented all by macros.
(So arabtex package does not require special TeX compilers and can
typeset
both Arabic and Hebrew.  While hebrew macro package requires eTeX and/or
TeX--Xet and only supports Hebrew.)

In fact, the standard TeX compiler only has LTR_TTB (characters are
written from left to right to form a line; lines are placed from top to
bottom to form a page) primitive.  The eTeX compiler has both LTR_TTB
and RTL_TTB primitives.  The pTeX compiler (Japanized version, not
available from CTAN) and possibly the hTeX compiler have LTR_TTB and
TTB_RTL primitives.  The omega compiler supports LTR_TTB, RTL_TTB,
TTB_RTL (for Chinese, Japanese, etc.) and TTB_LTR (for Mongolian)
primitives.

Regards,
SMiyata

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Tsur Dekel]

 
 On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 01:19:23PM +0100, Asger K. Alstrup Nielsen wrote:
  
  Yes, this patch is very cool.  Hebrew support can be considered a FURF,
  and it's great to see somebody do something about it.
 
 Yay!
 
 Dekel, how is this patch related to TeX--XeT? I seem to remember you needed
 more than just a Hebrew font to write hebrew in LaTeX.

The new TeX distributions come with e-TeX which replaces TeX--XeT.
See ftp://ftp.cc.huji.ac.il/pub/tex/unix/new/INSTALLATION.txt 
for instruction on adding Hebrew support to LaTeX


To use my LyX patch, you need to add the following line to lyxrc
\latex_command elatex

You also need to select a Hebrew font with the \screen_font_roman
command and use a Hebrew keymap.

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Shigeru Miyata]

"Seak, Teng-Fong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Chinese (as well as Japanese and Korean) can also be written from right to
> left, even though this isn't very common nowadays.  Actually, in tradition,
> Chinese is written from top to the bottom, then from right to left.  But I
> don't think Latex is able to support this :-)

Theoretically speaking it is of course possible.  However, dimensions
and
other TeX registers are scarce resources and if you implement vertical
typesetting only by macros, then you are more likely to encounter
"TeX capacity exceeded..." errors.  But you can check arabtex macro
package where RTL typesetter is implemented all by macros.
(So arabtex package does not require special TeX compilers and can
typeset
both Arabic and Hebrew.  While hebrew macro package requires eTeX and/or
TeX--Xet and only supports Hebrew.)

In fact, the standard TeX compiler only has LTR_TTB (characters are
written from left to right to form a line; lines are placed from top to
bottom to form a page) primitive.  The eTeX compiler has both LTR_TTB
and RTL_TTB primitives.  The pTeX compiler (Japanized version, not
available from CTAN) and possibly the hTeX compiler have LTR_TTB and
TTB_RTL primitives.  The omega compiler supports LTR_TTB, RTL_TTB,
TTB_RTL (for Chinese, Japanese, etc.) and TTB_LTR (for Mongolian)
primitives.

Regards,
SMiyata

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Tsur Dekel]

> 
> On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 01:19:23PM +0100, Asger K. Alstrup Nielsen wrote:
> > 
> > Yes, this patch is very cool.  Hebrew support can be considered a FURF,
> > and it's great to see somebody do something about it.
> 
> Yay!
> 
> Dekel, how is this patch related to TeX--XeT? I seem to remember you needed
> more than just a Hebrew font to write hebrew in LaTeX.

The new TeX distributions come with e-TeX which replaces TeX--XeT.
See ftp://ftp.cc.huji.ac.il/pub/tex/unix/new/INSTALLATION.txt 
for instruction on adding Hebrew support to LaTeX


To use my LyX patch, you need to add the following line to lyxrc
\latex_command elatex

You also need to select a Hebrew font with the \screen_font_roman
command and use a Hebrew keymap.

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Seak, Teng-Fong]

 Chinese (as well as Japanese and Korean) can also be written from right to
left, even though this isn't very common nowadays.  Actually, in tradition,
Chinese is written from top to the bottom, then from right to left.  But I
don't think Latex is able to support this :-)

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Allan Rae]

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Arnd Hanses wrote:

 On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:15:30 -0500, Amir Karger wrote:
 
  After all, how common is it to write a mixed document?
 
 Actually, I suspect it's not uncommon. First, in the scientific world (a
 popular LyX niche) I think there's stuff you have to write in English, even
 if you want to write most of a document in hebrew. ALternatively, a
 lot of science in Israel is done in English, but folks might want to put
 some hebrew stuff in. But of course, limited support for hebrew is better
 than none.
[..]
 And don't forget all those crazy souls in literature and humanities,
 who are accustomed to write half of their books as a synopsis of hebrew
 and greek, the rest in some medieval ecclesiastic bohemian dialect or
 whatever.
 
 A whole new planet full of LyX fanatics is awaiting your work :-)

I have a few friends in the "Studies in Religion" and "Classics and
Ancient History" departments here and they aren't prepared to switch to
LyX till we get the ability to easily insert quotations or individual
words in Hebrew or Sanskrit(sp?).  Currently they use either specialised
software or plug symbols in from a character chart in their Windblows
software.

A good second step (after including this patch) would be to allow language
on a per-paragraph basis.  That way quotes at least could be included in
an English language document for example.  Then I could try to get a
couple of people here to try it out also.

Allan. (ARRae)

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Seak, Teng-Fong]

 Chinese (as well as Japanese and Korean) can also be written from right to
left, even though this isn't very common nowadays.  Actually, in tradition,
Chinese is written from top to the bottom, then from right to left.  But I
don't think Latex is able to support this :-)

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Allan Rae]

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Arnd Hanses wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:15:30 -0500, Amir Karger wrote:
> 
> >> After all, how common is it to write a mixed document?
> >
> >Actually, I suspect it's not uncommon. First, in the scientific world (a
> >popular LyX niche) I think there's stuff you have to write in English, even
> >if you want to write most of a document in hebrew. ALternatively, a
> >lot of science in Israel is done in English, but folks might want to put
> >some hebrew stuff in. But of course, limited support for hebrew is better
> >than none.
[..]
> And don't forget all those crazy souls in literature and humanities,
> who are accustomed to write half of their books as a synopsis of hebrew
> and greek, the rest in some medieval ecclesiastic bohemian dialect or
> whatever.
> 
> A whole new planet full of LyX fanatics is awaiting your work :-)

I have a few friends in the "Studies in Religion" and "Classics and
Ancient History" departments here and they aren't prepared to switch to
LyX till we get the ability to easily insert quotations or individual
words in Hebrew or Sanskrit(sp?).  Currently they use either specialised
software or plug symbols in from a character chart in their Windblows
software.

A good second step (after including this patch) would be to allow language
on a per-paragraph basis.  That way quotes at least could be included in
an English language document for example.  Then I could try to get a
couple of people here to try it out also.

Allan. (ARRae)

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Allan Rae]

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Dekel Tsur wrote:

 The following patch add basic Hebrew support for LyX:
 When changing the document language to Hebrew (in Document Layout popup),
 the text will be rendered from right-to-left
 (except when entering TeX-mode)

Cool!  At last someone has done this!
I've only read through the patch I haven't tried it however that's not
going to stop me...

 The patch is against the cvs source (Dec 11).
 I should note that this patch is very incomplete (but still usable).
 Furthermore, there may be better ways to add right-to-left support
 for LyX (e.g., in the patch the text rendering is still done from left
 to right. It may be better to do the rendering from right to left).

The rendering method isn't a problem that could be altered later.  It's
the restriction on document language (ie. all or nothing) that is a
problem IMO. What we really need is an inset or text mode that allows
Hebrew or other RTL languages to be included in a LTR document and
vice-versa.  Actually,  we need to be able to define the language of
individual characters (or a phrase) and that should be a property of a
text chunk.

This idea is an extension of some of the generalised text insets that were
done in the old development branch -- IIRC they were eventually renamed
Elements.

Anyway, don't let this put you off.  We've needed someone to step forward
and do this for ages now.  Most of what you've done should be able to be
reused/adopted I think.  Maybe we could incorporate it and then modify the
insets/Elements to work better with it although I'd be inclined to do the
reverse and reintroduce the text elements and then adapt your work.

 If the LyX developers choose to use this patch, then I would like to
 become a developer to make additional changes.

You are certainly most welcome.

Allan. (ARRae)

Re: Hebrew support for LyX

[Allan Rae]

On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Dekel Tsur wrote:

> The following patch add basic Hebrew support for LyX:
> When changing the document language to Hebrew (in Document Layout popup),
> the text will be rendered from right-to-left
> (except when entering TeX-mode)

Cool!  At last someone has done this!
I've only read through the patch I haven't tried it however that's not
going to stop me...

> The patch is against the cvs source (Dec 11).
> I should note that this patch is very incomplete (but still usable).
> Furthermore, there may be better ways to add right-to-left support
> for LyX (e.g., in the patch the text rendering is still done from left
> to right. It may be better to do the rendering from right to left).

The rendering method isn't a problem that could be altered later.  It's
the restriction on document language (ie. all or nothing) that is a
problem IMO. What we really need is an inset or text mode that allows
Hebrew or other RTL languages to be included in a LTR document and
vice-versa.  Actually,  we need to be able to define the language of
individual characters (or a phrase) and that should be a property of a
text chunk.

This idea is an extension of some of the generalised text insets that were
done in the old development branch -- IIRC they were eventually renamed
Elements.

Anyway, don't let this put you off.  We've needed someone to step forward
and do this for ages now.  Most of what you've done should be able to be
reused/adopted I think.  Maybe we could incorporate it and then modify the
insets/Elements to work better with it although I'd be inclined to do the
reverse and reintroduce the text elements and then adapt your work.

> If the LyX developers choose to use this patch, then I would like to
> become a developer to make additional changes.

You are certainly most welcome.

Allan. (ARRae)