Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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Fine. Close the door on your way out.

On 11/1/15 8:30 AM, Mark Richey wrote:

  Chuckle, I'm going to look elsewhere for 'marxists',  since if you look in 
any dictionary, marxism has nothing to do with spouting Pentagon propaganda as 
fact.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Mark Richey via Marxism]

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Calling yourself a 'marxist' doe't , as you seem to believe, entitle you to 
simply invent nonsense about Syria, for which you can't point to ANY scholarly 
sources since they don't exist.

When I point to sources, even pro US wones, that state the bulk of fighting 
against Assad is by foreign mercenaries, you ignore that, as in this last post.

 Chuckle, I'm going to look elsewhere for 'marxists',  since if you look in any 
dictionary, marxism has nothing to do with spouting Pentagon propaganda as 
fact. 



-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com>
>Sent: Oct 31, 2015 9:35 PM
>To: Mark Richey <markric...@earthlink.net>, Activists and scholars in Marxist 
>tradition <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”
>
>On 10/30/15 9:47 PM, Mark Richey wrote:
>> The great bulk of fighting in Syria is done by foreign mercenaries,
>> most of them Wahabists who behead captured Syrian soldiers regularly.
>> Even the pro US 'syrian Observatory', a one man British expatriate,
>> admits that.
>>
>> As for the indigenous rebels (aside from the Kurds who want their own
>> nation), they are led, largely, by ex Assad army officers on the take
>> from the US, who assumed Assad would quickly go the way of Khadafy
>> and wanted to be on the 'winning side.'  NOt 'poor farmers', etc.
>> etc., most of whom have fled Syria or to government held areas to
>> escape the head choppers.
>>
>> I won't engage with someone who simply makes up facts about Syria
>> that even pro US sources don't credit.
>>
>
>Richey, I don't appreciate evasiveness, especially from someone who 
>seems to be as familiar with Marxist theory as I am with quantum mechanics.
>
>I point to scholarly material about the social and economic causes of 
>the uprising and you ignore it. This is the second time you have done that.
>
>I understand that you have somehow wandered into a forum where there are 
>people who have been involved with Marxist theory and analysis for 
>probably longer than you have lived and that you simply lack the 
>wherewithal to discuss things in class terms but I can't allow you to 
>waste bandwidth much longer especially since every single post you have 
>made here is harping on the same topic.
>
>Read any Gramsci lately that has exercised the old cerebrum? Maybe you'd 
>want to share that with us. The clock is ticking.
>
>


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 11/1/15 11:46 AM, Mark Richey via Marxism wrote:


The FSA is largely a creation of the CIA, and/or the Turks, and is
viewed as such by Syrians according to Franklin Lamb, who actually
has BEEN in Syria and speaks the language, has done research...


Aren't you embarrassed to be repeating the words of a long-time booster 
of Hezbollah? I guess that's a function of trawling the amen corner of 
the blogosphere. You, like many Baathist tools, have no idea how to 
locate impartial sources.




and to compare the CIA created FSA with the Spanish POUM  would be
funny, it it weren't a pathetic excuse for backing US imperialism、 、
Proyect and his 'humanitarian regime change' faction reminds me of
the fact that many of the Bush coterie of neocons were also
'socialists' at one time in their youth.


I love how you spout nonsense like "the CIA created FSA" when most 
people who remain tethered to the planet earth understand that it came 
into existence after Baathist snipers began killing peaceful protesters. 
Of course, I imagine that you are one of those benighted souls who 
believe that they were really CIA or Saudi assets firing down on the 
demonstrators from rooftops in order to create a "false flag" scenario.

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Mark Richey via Marxism]

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Here's some scholarly references for Mr. Proyect,late of the SWP, one of the 
most mendacious 'left' organizations ever seen in the US:

Abu Muhamed al-Jolani, head pf Syria's al-Qaida affilate al-Nusra front, one of 
the largest groups fighting in Syria, pledged that armed groups would 'hurl 
hundreds of rockets' dail at villages inhabited by the Alawite minority, the 
sect from which Bashar al-Assad hails.  Jolani said he would pay '3 million 
euros", US #3.4 million, for anyone who can kill al-Assad and end his story.'

Jolani also offered '2 million euros for whoever kills Hasssan Nasrallah", 
leader of Lebanon's Shiite Hezbollah movement.'

There was no word from Jolani about any alternative political or social agenda, 
and there never has beeen from any known group actually fighting in Syria, the 
bulk of whom are Wahhabists or other Islamists.

Aside from the purely sectarian and genocidal treats made against various 
minorities in Syria, and elsewhere, Jolani also revealed that he is flush with 
cash, obviously derived from foreign sponsorship to be sure, not from donations 
from Syrian workers or farmers.  The US and its proxies such as Saudi Arabia 
ensure the arming and funding of nearly all the 'Syrian' resistance, which is 
led for the most part by Jolani and similar characters.

 

-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com>
>Sent: Nov 1, 2015 9:33 PM
>To: Mark Richey <markric...@earthlink.net>, Activists and scholars in Marxist 
>tradition <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”
>
>Fine. Close the door on your way out.
>
>On 11/1/15 8:30 AM, Mark Richey wrote:
>>   Chuckle, I'm going to look elsewhere for 'marxists',  since if you look in 
>> any dictionary, marxism has nothing to do with spouting Pentagon propaganda 
>> as fact.


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 11/1/15 10:02 AM, Mark Richey wrote:

Abu Muhamed al-Jolani, head pf Syria's al-Qaida affilate al-Nusra
front, one of the largest groups fighting in Syria, pledged that
armed groups would 'hurl hundreds of rockets' dail at villages
inhabited by the Alawite minority, the sect from which Bashar
al-Assad hails.  Jolani said he would pay '3 million euros", US #3.4
million, for anyone who can kill al-Assad and end his story.'


That's all true but socialists who are in solidarity with the Syrian 
revolution back the Kurds and/or the FSA. If the Internet existed in the 
1930s, people with our outlook would be supporting the anarchists, the 
POUM, and/or the Trotskyist party in Spain against Franco--the 
forerunner of Assad's murderous air war (check Picasso's "Guernica" to 
get a handle on what obviously inspired Putin in Chechnya and Assad in 
Douma where 70 people were just killed and 550 wounded.) What's weird is 
that the Baathist amen corner, including you, has fallen in love with 
someone who combines the worst aspects of both Stalin and Franco: Bashar 
al-Assad.


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Mark Richey via Marxism]

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The FSA is largely a creation of the CIA, and/or the Turks, and is viewed as 
such by Syrians according to Franklin Lamb, who actually has BEEN in Syria and 
speaks the language, has done research...

and to compare the CIA created FSA with the Spanish POUM  would be funny, it it 
weren't a pathetic excuse for backing US imperialism、
、
Proyect and his 'humanitarian regime change' faction reminds me of the fact 
that many of the Bush coterie of neocons were also 'socialists' at one time in 
their youth.




-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect <l...@panix.com>
>Sent: Nov 1, 2015 11:48 PM
>To: Mark Richey <markric...@earthlink.net>, Activists and scholars in Marxist 
>tradition <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”
>
>On 11/1/15 10:02 AM, Mark Richey wrote:
>> Abu Muhamed al-Jolani, head pf Syria's al-Qaida affilate al-Nusra
>> front, one of the largest groups fighting in Syria, pledged that
>> armed groups would 'hurl hundreds of rockets' dail at villages
>> inhabited by the Alawite minority, the sect from which Bashar
>> al-Assad hails.  Jolani said he would pay '3 million euros", US #3.4
>> million, for anyone who can kill al-Assad and end his story.'
>
>That's all true but socialists who are in solidarity with the Syrian 
>revolution back the Kurds and/or the FSA. If the Internet existed in the 
>1930s, people with our outlook would be supporting the anarchists, the 
>POUM, and/or the Trotskyist party in Spain against Franco--the 
>forerunner of Assad's murderous air war (check Picasso's "Guernica" to 
>get a handle on what obviously inspired Putin in Chechnya and Assad in 
>Douma where 70 people were just killed and 550 wounded.) What's weird is 
>that the Baathist amen corner, including you, has fallen in love with 
>someone who combines the worst aspects of both Stalin and Franco: Bashar 
>al-Assad.
>


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Louis Proyect via Marxism]

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On 10/30/15 9:47 PM, Mark Richey wrote:

The great bulk of fighting in Syria is done by foreign mercenaries,
most of them Wahabists who behead captured Syrian soldiers regularly.
Even the pro US 'syrian Observatory', a one man British expatriate,
admits that.

As for the indigenous rebels (aside from the Kurds who want their own
nation), they are led, largely, by ex Assad army officers on the take
from the US, who assumed Assad would quickly go the way of Khadafy
and wanted to be on the 'winning side.'  NOt 'poor farmers', etc.
etc., most of whom have fled Syria or to government held areas to
escape the head choppers.

I won't engage with someone who simply makes up facts about Syria
that even pro US sources don't credit.



Richey, I don't appreciate evasiveness, especially from someone who 
seems to be as familiar with Marxist theory as I am with quantum mechanics.


I point to scholarly material about the social and economic causes of 
the uprising and you ignore it. This is the second time you have done that.


I understand that you have somehow wandered into a forum where there are 
people who have been involved with Marxist theory and analysis for 
probably longer than you have lived and that you simply lack the 
wherewithal to discuss things in class terms but I can't allow you to 
waste bandwidth much longer especially since every single post you have 
made here is harping on the same topic.


Read any Gramsci lately that has exercised the old cerebrum? Maybe you'd 
want to share that with us. The clock is ticking.



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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Mark Richey via Marxism]

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The great bulk of fighting in Syria is done by foreign mercenaries, most of 
them Wahabists who behead captured Syrian soldiers regularly.  Even the pro US 
'syrian Observatory', a one man British expatriate, admits that.  

As for the indigenous rebels (aside from the Kurds who want their own nation), 
they are led, largely, by ex Assad army officers on the take from the US, who 
assumed Assad would quickly go the way of Khadafy and wanted to be on the 
'winning side.'  NOt 'poor farmers', etc. etc., most of whom have fled Syria or 
to government held areas to escape the head choppers.

I won't engage with someone who simply makes up facts about Syria that even pro 
US sources don't credit. 

-Original Message-
>From: Louis Proyect via Marxism <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2015 3:32 PM
>To: Mark Richey <markric...@earthlink.net>
>Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”
>
>  POSTING RULES & NOTES  
>#1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
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>*
>
>On 10/29/15 2:27 AM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism wrote:
>> So once again, why do people like you keep trying to force reality to
>> fit your theories no matter how much it refuses to fit?
>
>I think the answer for that is obvious. Richey is a non-Marxist radical. 
>A conspiracy theorist basically. A few days ago I cited Bassam Haddad's 
>"The Syrian Regime's Business Backbone" to help him understand something 
>about Syrian society and why the uprising is so difficult to defeat. It 
>was like trying to explain chess tactics to a Cocker Spaniel, I'm 
>afraid. When a military is defending privileges of a torturing elite 
>against the majority of a nation, that is what happens. The poor have 
>nothing to lose. He brings up the Gulf of Tonkin, being utterly clueless 
>that most rebels are shit-out-of-luck former farmers, workers and small 
>proprietors from Syria's hollowed out agrarian sector, basically the 
>same social classes that fought to throw the American military out of 
>Vietnam.
>
>---
>
>Four years of devastating drought beginning in 2006 caused at least 
>800,000 farmers to lose their entire livelihood and about 200,000 simply 
>abandoned their lands, according to the Center for Climate & Security. 
>In some areas, all agriculture ceased. In others, crop failures reached 
>75 percent. And generally as much as 85 percent of livestock died of 
>thirst or hunger. Hundreds of thousands of Syria’s farmers gave up, 
>abandoned their farms, and fled to the cities and towns in search of 
>almost non-existent jobs and severely short food supplies. Outside 
>observers including UN experts estimated that between 2 and 3 million of 
>Syria’s 10 million rural inhabitants were reduced to “extreme poverty.”
>
>As they flocked into the cities and towns seeking work and food, the 
>“economic” or “climate” refugees immediately found that they had to 
>compete not only with one another for scarce food, water, and jobs, but 
>also with the existing foreign refugee population. Syria was already a 
>refuge for a quarter of a million Palestinians and about 100,000 Iraqis 
>who had fled the war and occupation. Formerly prosperous farmers were 
>lucky to get jobs as hawkers or street sweepers.
>
>full: 
>http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/12/understanding-syria-from-pre-civil-war-to-post-assad/281989/
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Clay Claiborne via Marxism]

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It was precisely 1 year and about 100,000 Syrian lives after Obama gave a
green light to Assad's slaughter by saying that CW would be a "red line"
and implying their would be no US military intervention so long as Assad
stuck to barrel bombs, artillery, and mass killings., not weeks as Richey
claims.

Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 

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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Michael Karadjis via Marxism]

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-Original Message- 
From: Mark Richey via Marxism



I don't know who launched the Ghouta attacks


Really? So the fact that around 8-10 different areas of outer Damascus 
(working class suburbs, held by the rebels) were hit, some separated 
from each other by areas not hit, all in a radius from a launching point 
where there happens to be the regime, and with the need to have the high 
capacity launching equipment, which is only in the hands of the regime, 
and you have no idea who launched the attacks?


But there is certainly doubt about the US version, with both Hersh and 
now two Turkish deputies making the same allegations independently.


What is the "US version"? Or do you mean the version that has been 
established by the UN investigation?


Why would the Assad regime have launched such attacks, militarily 
ineffective as they were, just weeks after Obama publicly stated, and 
trumpeted in the lackey media,  that chemical weapons would be his 
'red line' to destroy the Assad regime's military?   Why would Assad 
play into Obama's hands in this way?  ... Assad would have had to have 
been a FOOL, to put it mildly


Assad is no fool, it is all these western leftists who are FOOLish 
enough to believe their own rhetoric, and then when reality blows up in 
their faces, they still can't see it. I guess Assad just understood 
class politics better than you. He was not fooled by some "red line" 
like you were. Assad understood perfectly well the US did not want to 
get rid of his regime, he played his cards perfectly. As a result, the 
"line" became clearer: while there were to be no consequences for the 
massive sarin attack on the Damascus working classes, there was enough 
of a rah-rah to establish that *everything else* other than sarin was 
considered OK, especially after the Obama-Putin-Netanyahu plan for 
removing the chemical weapons was enacted. So the genocide with every 
conceivable kind of conventional WMD was stepped up dramatically after 
September 2013, and starvation sieges added.


At the time, the Assad military was at least holding its own.  His 
position was far from desperate, as we know, much better than now.


And people of course like to believe whatever fits their theory. This 
statement has no meaning at all. Assad's position has continually ebbed 
and flowed, and has only begun to get more desperate since around April 
2015 when the rebels seized Idlib city and then went on to score a bunch 
of victories north and south. None of that had anything to with the US 
even then; but in any case what has it got to do with the sarin massacre 
one and a half years earlier? Perhaps you imagine that the US did in 
fact attack Assad after all in September 2013, thus weakening his 
position? Shed some light on these unknown facts. Assad's military 
position *greatly improved* in the period following September 2013: the 
imperialist west began turning all its attention towards the Islamic 
State, while Iran and its sectarian international began pouring 
thousands of troops into Syria to bolster Assad at the very time that 
the US opened the new round of nuclear negotiations with Iran, and began 
literally *fighting together with pro-Iranian forces* in neighbouring 
Iraq to bolster the Assad-allied government there. All very much in the 
regime's favour.


And given The Tonkin Gulf, the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, the 
overthrow of Mossadegh, the lies about Khadafy's massacres, etc. etc. 
etc.,  doesn't the adage apply:  'fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me 
twice, shame on me?'


Hang on, didn't something major happen after Tonkin Gulf, Iraqi WD etc 
etc? Didn't nothing happen after Assad's sarin attack? So once again, 
why do people like you keep trying to force reality to fit your theories 
no matter how much it refuses to fit?


But then again, hardly surprising: a full year after the US began 
bombing Anyone But Assad (ABA) in Syria, some still imagine the US is 
"intervening against Assad in Syria" ...



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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[Mark Richey via Marxism]

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I don't know who launched the Ghouta attacks, and to my knowledge, there is no 
credible proof either way.  But there is certainly doubt about the US version, 
with both Hersh and now two Turkish deputies making the same allegations 
independently.

But let us consider, in the absence of any proof, simple logic.  Why would the 
Assad regime have launched such attacks, militarily ineffective as they were, 
just weeks after Obama publicly stated, and trumpeted in the lackey media,  
that chemical weapons would be his 'red line' to destroy the Assad regime's 
military?   Why would Assad play into Obama's hands in this way?  Isn't that 
scenario, in the light of constant US goverment lies revealed by Wikileaks, 
more than a little too coincidental?

And, precisely when UN chemical weapons inspectors had been invited into the 
country, and were able to quickly go to the site? 

At the time, the Assad military was at least holding its own.  His position was 
far from desperate, as we know, much better than now. 

Assad would have had to have been a FOOL, to put it mildly,  And while one can 
document that his regime is dictatorial, brutal, lying..I have yet to hear any 
allegation from ANYONE that he is a fool, not even from Obama, the Turks, the 
Saudi beheaders, etc.  

Unless someone can show evidence the man is a fool, it's difficult to credit 
the US version.  And given The Tonkin Gulf, the Iraqi weapons of mass 
destruction, the overthrow of Mossadegh, the lies about Khadafy's massacres, 
etc. etc. etc.,  doesn't the adage apply:  'fool me once, shame on you.  Fool 
me twice, shame on me?'

How can anyone take the US side here, without proof,  with a straight face, 
especially if one claims to be a 'marxist'?


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Re: [Marxism] Fwd: bellingcat - Examining the Turkish Sarin “Recipe”

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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>But let us consider, in the absence of any proof, simple logic.  Why would
the Assad regime have launched such attacks, militarily ineffective as they
were, just weeks after Obama publicly stated, and trumpeted in the lackey
media,  that chemical weapons would be his 'red line' to destroy the Assad
regime's military?   Why would Assad play into Obama's hands in this way?
Isn't that scenario, in the light of constant US goverment lies revealed by
Wikileaks, more than a little too coincidental?

Because Assad calculated that the US was not actually interested in another
military confrontation. China and Russia had vetoed the 2012 resolution
against his regime, meaning that there was basically no chance for a
UNSC-based regime change operation like in Libya. He also knew that the US
was basically depending on Iran in Iraq, and both the Iranian govt and the
Maliki regime at the time were backing him.

So, if Obama had drawn a red line, crossing that line would be a way to
call the West's bluff, thereby quelling any hopes of foreign intervention
against him. Indeed, looks like that's what happened. Obama did not have
the support -- nationally, internationally, or otherwise, to launch another
regime change operation, and it's doubtful that he even wanted to given
that his foreign policy has been characterized more by traditional
"realist" imperialism rather than neoconservatism.

- Amith

On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Mark Richey via Marxism <
marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote:

>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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> *
>
> I don't know who launched the Ghouta attacks, and to my knowledge, there
> is no credible proof either way.  But there is certainly doubt about the US
> version, with both Hersh and now two Turkish deputies making the same
> allegations independently.
>
> But let us consider, in the absence of any proof, simple logic.  Why would
> the Assad regime have launched such attacks, militarily ineffective as they
> were, just weeks after Obama publicly stated, and trumpeted in the lackey
> media,  that chemical weapons would be his 'red line' to destroy the Assad
> regime's military?   Why would Assad play into Obama's hands in this way?
> Isn't that scenario, in the light of constant US goverment lies revealed by
> Wikileaks, more than a little too coincidental?
>
> And, precisely when UN chemical weapons inspectors had been invited into
> the country, and were able to quickly go to the site?
>
> At the time, the Assad military was at least holding its own.  His
> position was far from desperate, as we know, much better than now.
>
> Assad would have had to have been a FOOL, to put it mildly,  And while one
> can document that his regime is dictatorial, brutal, lying..I have yet to
> hear any allegation from ANYONE that he is a fool, not even from Obama, the
> Turks, the Saudi beheaders, etc.
>
> Unless someone can show evidence the man is a fool, it's difficult to
> credit the US version.  And given The Tonkin Gulf, the Iraqi weapons of
> mass destruction, the overthrow of Mossadegh, the lies about Khadafy's
> massacres, etc. etc. etc.,  doesn't the adage apply:  'fool me once, shame
> on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me?'
>
> How can anyone take the US side here, without proof,  with a straight
> face, especially if one claims to be a 'marxist'?
>
>
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