Re: [MP3 ENCODER] Ogg Vorbis beta 2 still has a long way to go.
Yes, Roel was abit rash, but more than just a little justified imho. Don't deny that quite a few of you were overpraising Vorbis long before it actually was much to praise .. sure, it's a format with much potential, but it hasn't reached much of that potential yet, and stating that it's an "mp3-killer" already is way exagerated. I think that there are 2 things that need to be separate in our minds (at least it's my personnal opinion). To my mind the Vorbis format and the current Vorbis encoder core are 2 different things I think that there is on one side the vorbis specs, and on the other side the current vorbis encoding core. According to the specs (although it seems to me that there is a lack of documentation about it), vorbis has a lot more potential than mp3. But there could be a lot of different encoders using vorbis, with different strategies. Until now, we only have one, and this one is in beta stage. But the specifications are not in beta, they are finalized. But if you are a company working with music, developping a vorbis encoder is a not very good financial thing. It probably costs a lot less to pay the 15000$ each year to FhG or to wait for another company to developp a free vorbis encoder (in our case Icast) than paying some people to developp another good one. I think that vorbis is far from it's potential quality because there is only 1 full time developper and a lot of things to implement. Brandeburg wasn't the only full time man working in the natural audio division of FhG, Johnston wasn't the only full time man working in the natural audio division of ATT. Monty is the only full time developper of vorbis, and he's a simple human, unable to work 72h each day. That's why I think that vorbis encoder will take a lot of time before reaching the full potential of vorbis, or beeing close to it. Regards, -- Gabriel Bouvigne - France [EMAIL PROTECTED] icq: 12138873 MP3' Tech: www.mp3-tech.org -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] Ogg Vorbis beta 2 still has a long way to go.
The best thing so far about Ogg Vorbis has been the marketing. That's at best inflammatory, Roel. Why not just start off your next mail with a few comments about my mother? :-P I tested one file with the new b2, and even with -m6, the best possible Vorbis setting, resulting in a 350kbit/s file it sounds poor. Then that's a bug. You're still going to be able to find problem samples (and how many samples does it have no problem with at all? The vast majority) Last time you gave us the problem samples, and we fixed it. We'll do the same thing this time. Isn't that the whole bloody point of a beta release? There are obvious low-frequency bass distortions, which mp3 at 256kbit/s bitrate doesn't show. Right, bug, checking it out. Most likely, it's the +/- 1.5 dB resolution in the current codebooks. Since OV developers also read this list, I'd like to let them know to tweak their encoder to have good encoding of 'velvet', which can be found at http://r3mix.50g.com Thanks. LQ5-AAC manages to sound very well @192, so in future before they come stating again "better than lame" (*) - at least try get this track right at 192kbit/s. You'll get farther with us if you remember your manners. I don't mind being told where the code is lacking. Doing so with contempt and arrogance you're not entitled to makes you hard to take seriously. I barely bothered responding to your message; I nearly let my Slashdot k1dd13 filter just discard it. FYI, FWIW. Maybe they should have developed their product for 1-2 years before setting up a website and featuring artists. Ahem. I've been working on this for seven years. Seven full time years, on my own, after the duties at my day jobs were finished. I've got the good fortune to be funded now, so this *is* the day job. These past six months of funding are all you're apparently aware of. Now if you could bother checking some of your rant against reality before insulting my dedication, I'll consider not stuffing you onto my shit list for all of eternity. There was an Ogg Vorbis *long* before there was a LAME. (*) One of their main developers stating "the ogg encoder available as of today (beta 2), does sound better then current Lame." does their cause not much good. I stand by what I said. I'm an audio asshole and I use this code myself. There are samples where LAME eats Ogg's breakfast. There are samples where Ogg spanks LAME. Guess what, they're different systems and that's to be expected. I think that Ogg is better overall, and that's not bullshit. Believing OV, once mainstream, will not be slapped and crippled by lawsuits from conventional music and distribution industry because it uses no obvious patented material is plain out naive. There goes the biggest advantage of this format. "Bah". Diatribes are not productive. We have a professional, independant legal/IP/Patent review backing up Ogg Vorbis and a funded legal department to make that review stick. You can keep your head in the sand if you want Roel. Monty -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] Ogg Vorbis beta 2 still has a long way to go.
[my opinion] Believing OV, once mainstream, will not be slapped and crippled by lawsuits from conventional music and distribution industry because it uses no obvious patented material is plain out naive. There goes the biggest advantage of this format. [/my opinion] Your other comments aside, this is just plain FUD. We have top notch lawyers on this. We have done lots of patent research. We have paid lawyers to do lots of patent research. We are not 'believing' it's patent free. We plan to defend it in court should the occasion arise, and have been preparing defenses for sometime. We don't think they will be needed. You are naive to think we don't do our homeworld, or that there isn't significant backbone to our claims to intelluctual property. I'll remind you that MP3 IS currently crippled by intellectual property restrictions, and Vorbis is not. Why you'd even bring this up (since all your other arguments are vorbis vs. mp3) is beyond me. It makes little sense. As for your other opinions, you are one individual. You ears are also imperfect, and therefore we rely on the feedback of many people, including yourself to improve the quality of vorbis. We're not here to kill the LAME project. Hell, we PAID for quite a bit of development, and Mark and I still talk to each other regularly. We get feedback from him on vorbis all the time. Also, remember that vorbis has dual stereo, and doesn't combine channels. It's not fair to compare join stereo against it. Do your tests with dual stereo and see if the results are the same. Help us tune it. This feedback cycle with you is really lousy, IMO. We release something, and then 2 months later you tell everyone it sucks. Most otehr people report their findings to us asap and help us nail the bugs. No one has found something that we haven't fixed yet, and I don't see how you expect this to get fixed without telling us. I also don't see why it's some kind of "invader" on your personal space or something. We're building something for everyone. it's open and free. Mp3 is not. I'd think you'd be just a little more enthusiastic about helpingi it develop into something you're happy with. Yes we have a long way to go, we already know that. It took years to get LAME where it is. It will take vorbis a while to mature as well, but it's pretty damn good now. jack. -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
Re: [MP3 ENCODER] Ogg Vorbis beta 2 still has a long way to go.
Reading Roel's initial statement, and all the replies, I'd like to comment a little on this matter myself... Yes, Roel was abit rash, but more than just a little justified imho. Don't deny that quite a few of you were overpraising Vorbis long before it actually was much to praise .. sure, it's a format with much potential, but it hasn't reached much of that potential yet, and stating that it's an "mp3-killer" already is way exagerated. I'm not off trying to start a flamewar or anything, but I just want you all to stop and think for a while, and consider your own actions, and please cease all future defamatory remarks... Offnote: Please find a way to avoid using alloca() which Vorbis seems to use *alot*, it's not very portable, and is a horrible stack-abuse. ;) - CISC -- MP3 ENCODER mailing list ( http://geek.rcc.se/mp3encoder/ )
