Re: [Origami] Books discussions + Re: Tanteidan Convention book #1 (1995)

[Lorenzo via Origami]

At the end, I created a public FB group.

I'm not going to publicize it here, as I don't know if it would be well
perceived.
If you are interested just drop me an email (lorenzo.luci...@gmail.com) or
a msg on FB (you can find me as "Lorenzo Lucioni" and freely ask FB
"friendship" without worries). And if you are going to join, feel free to
share with your own friends or commuinities.

I really (really) don't know if it will be helpful to anyone, if it will be
participated or not, if it is going to grow, or simply abandoned.
People and contents will decide. It could easily be there was/is no any
needs for that, I really don't know and I don't expect anything.
Just... let's see.

Happy Sunday to everybody,
Lorenzo


On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 at 07:37, Papirfoldning.dk  wrote:

> On 8 Jan 2023, at 01.15, Lorenzo via Origami <
> origami@lists.digitalorigami.com> wrote:
>
> So, I turn the question in: Why there are not so many discussions ongoing
> in this list? Is it just because of lack of topics, or maybe because other
> media replaced this list?
>
> When the oLlist was created, the digital world was much smaller, and the
> IT-savvy origamists likely a smaller group, and hence knit-together. Even
> in the years I've seen, the participants have changed. The current ones
> still make discussions, it's just not your old "oh, I know that person".
>
> Anne, how old is the oList, and how many subscribers does it have today?
>
> Today, the SoMe world is fragmented. Lorenzo mentions Facebook which has
> already hundreds, if not thousands, of origami groups - even in Danish
> there is a handful - so which ones to follow? Instagram, YouTube, Quora,
> mailing lists (I'm a member of at least 5 different origami lists), forums,
> ... nobody is everywhere. I know many people who do not bother to use
> Facebook, many for principled reasons, so you will never reach them there.
>
> When I communicate and coordinate, people propose WhatsApp (I don't have
> it), sms (texting, including images), Facebook private messages (aka
> messenger), a dedicated forum (who's to administrate it? It's even more
> cumbersome that being a mailing list admin), Facebook groups (same
> question), SnapChat (I don't use it), and likely more in different parts of
> the world.
>
> That is likely the one advantage of mail: If you have a digital presence
> at all, you have an email address and can read the mails sent to you. If
> using anything but the oList with its stringent rules (bordering
> frightening for any but the dedicated few), you can also include pictures.
> And writing text and including images in emails are way easier in emails
> than in Facebook (see, people have different preferences, as Lorenzo states
> the opposite).
>
> The hope of getting a common place for specialised origami discussions is
> in vain. XKCD captures the idea perfectly for standards:
> https://m.xkcd.com/927/.
>
> Lorenzo has strong points about why a mailing list is not good for his
> purposes, even if in the end it boils down to personal preferences and
> personal connectedness.
>
> Lorenzo's example of the isbn number of this blurred book image, fits
> perfectly into the ephemeral nature of Facebook. Someone is likely to idly
> browse through the messages and to have an answer, and it is easy to ignore
> messages you are not interested in.
>
> This ephemeral nature is also the weak point of Facebook (ignoring the
> problem of many people not having an account or not using it): one week
> later (not to say one year later) it is like impossible to find the answer,
> the isbn number again. Yes, you can access, but not search, archives -
> slowly and cumbersome, beyond the past month even your personal postings
> are practically impossible to find. You would have to ask again, and hope
> somebody answers this time as well.
>
> All that is if you can even remember where you got the answer. There is no
> way to search across sms, mail, facebook, messenger, whatsapp, instagram,
> forums, blogs, and more.
>
> To sum up: There is a plethora of options for asking questions and
> discuss. There is no way all those you know, will see it in any one
> channel. Nothing precludes you from asking the question on the oList or an
> arbitrary facebook group. If you get an answer, you just try the same place
> again, if not, try another place.
>
> Regards,
> Hans
>
>

-- 
Lorenzo Lucioni
Duesseldorf - DE
lorenzo.luci...@gmail.com

Re: [Origami] Books discussions + Re: Tanteidan Convention book #1 (1995)

[Papirfoldning.dk]

> On 8 Jan 2023, at 01.15, Lorenzo via Origami 
>  wrote:
> So, I turn the question in: Why there are not so many discussions ongoing in 
> this list? Is it just because of lack of topics, or maybe because other media 
> replaced this list? 
When the oLlist was created, the digital world was much smaller, and the 
IT-savvy origamists likely a smaller group, and hence knit-together. Even in 
the years I've seen, the participants have changed. The current ones still make 
discussions, it's just not your old "oh, I know that person". 

Anne, how old is the oList, and how many subscribers does it have today?

Today, the SoMe world is fragmented. Lorenzo mentions Facebook which has 
already hundreds, if not thousands, of origami groups - even in Danish there is 
a handful - so which ones to follow? Instagram, YouTube, Quora, mailing lists 
(I'm a member of at least 5 different origami lists), forums, ... nobody is 
everywhere. I know many people who do not bother to use Facebook, many for 
principled reasons, so you will never reach them there.

When I communicate and coordinate, people propose WhatsApp (I don't have it), 
sms (texting, including images), Facebook private messages (aka messenger), a 
dedicated forum (who's to administrate it? It's even more cumbersome that being 
a mailing list admin), Facebook groups (same question), SnapChat (I don't use 
it), and likely more in different parts of the world.

That is likely the one advantage of mail: If you have a digital presence at 
all, you have an email address and can read the mails sent to you. If using 
anything but the oList with its stringent rules (bordering frightening for any 
but the dedicated few), you can also include pictures. And writing text and 
including images in emails are way easier in emails than in Facebook (see, 
people have different preferences, as Lorenzo states the opposite).

The hope of getting a common place for specialised origami discussions is in 
vain. XKCD captures the idea perfectly for standards: https://m.xkcd.com/927/.

Lorenzo has strong points about why a mailing list is not good for his 
purposes, even if in the end it boils down to personal preferences and personal 
connectedness.

Lorenzo's example of the isbn number of this blurred book image, fits perfectly 
into the ephemeral nature of Facebook. Someone is likely to idly browse through 
the messages and to have an answer, and it is easy to ignore messages you are 
not interested in.

This ephemeral nature is also the weak point of Facebook (ignoring the problem 
of many people not having an account or not using it): one week later (not to 
say one year later) it is like impossible to find the answer, the isbn number 
again. Yes, you can access, but not search, archives - slowly and cumbersome, 
beyond the past month even your personal postings are practically impossible to 
find. You would have to ask again, and hope somebody answers this time as well. 

All that is if you can even remember where you got the answer. There is no way 
to search across sms, mail, facebook, messenger, whatsapp, instagram, forums, 
blogs, and more.

To sum up: There is a plethora of options for asking questions and discuss. 
There is no way all those you know, will see it in any one channel. Nothing 
precludes you from asking the question on the oList or an arbitrary facebook 
group. If you get an answer, you just try the same place again, if not, try 
another place.

Regards,
Hans

Re: [Origami] Books discussions + Re: Tanteidan Convention book #1 (1995)

[Lorenzo via Origami]

Hi Ann,

Thank you for your email and pardon for the late reply.

I will play devil's advocate, here, and ask *why* a group mailing list is
> not a "proper" solution for this discussion? Even if a particular topic is
> of interest to only part of the community, isn't that nearly always true,
> for any given thread?
>

I feel the email as an old media, less appreciated than in the past. As you
said, it seems mostly used one-way, nowadays, at least in this ML.
So, I turn the question in: Why there are not so many discussions ongoing
in this list? Is it just because of lack of topics, or maybe because other
media replaced this list?

For example, on FB there's a group "Origami Help": honestly, when I search
for info about something specific, I feel that FB group will potentially
give more help, because of a wider audience, at least.
Writing an email takes much time to me than writing a FB post, attaching
images, directly mentioning people (tag) to alert them, and eventually
sharing my post on other groups, and so on ...
Also, FB is much more "visual" than a ML, and this is something quite
important to me.


> While I am the first to agree that the use of email (and the technology
> that people use to read and send it) has not evolved in a way that makes
> true discussion lists all that common any more, this is a pretty
> low-traffic list at the moment. It could, in my opinion, certainly
> withstand some regular discussion of something as important to the
> community as origami books 
>

I understand, but actually I guess you over estimate the interest that the
topic "collecting" could have for the community.
Typical questions could be "does anyone know where I can find that book?"
or "could you please provide ISBN of the book shown here?"... so, not
actually discussions, not anything interesting for the community. that's
why I mentioned "flooding", because when you collect books, and want to
exchange info about collections, you end-up exchanging messages which are
not really discussions.

Furthermore, the rapidity of an answer on FB is much higher than any
ML.  Yesterday
I was looking for a book, I had only a blur pic of the cover, I published
on Origami Help and had the ISBN from a group member in a few minutes.

If that level of list traffic were to be perceived as a "flood", or if this
> sort of thing is somehow no longer desired by the list membership, well,
> does anyone have a better idea for some sort of forum that would support
> such a discussion? Should we finally find another underlying solution for a
> home for the O-list community?
>

If this list has not much traffic, it is maybe because members have less
topics to share/discuss, and specifically it seems to me there are not much
people interested in collecting (I don't see any msg about that at all).

Personally, I do not think that a social-media page is really that great a
> way to have a discussion;
>

Yes, agree. Nevertheless, collectors are probably not discussing much.
Instead, they are mainly asking and they would reach a wide audience.

 - Facebook pages require a user to "go" to a spot to make sure they see
> all the new material (and even then The Algorithm tries hard to only show
> you what it thinks you want) and then dig through nested comments to follow
> a conversation; and don't even go into what happens when users have blocked
> or unfollowed each other so that no one can actually see a whole thread;
>

The points here you mentioned I don't feel them so strong, personally.
I feel quite comfortable in FB groups, browsing FB threads...


> And few systems are going to make it easy for folks to discuss something
> for more than a few back-and-forth comments if they're coming in on a phone
> or similar device.
>

Another good point: mobile devices.
Many people do not use their laptop anymore, and actually when it comes to
mobile phones, discussing on FB is much more effective and easy than via
ML, in my experience.
I'm writing this email on mobile and actually... it's a mess.

It comes down to what specific sort of conversation does one want, and on
> what topic, and how do you want people to interact with it, what people,
> how often, etc.?  I think if one can try to nail down some of those
> answers, then there's hope of creating a viable place for a particular
> online (sub)-community to exist.
>

Yes, that's why I thought to FB (fast and visual), for this topic.

Regards,
Lorenzo

-- 
Lorenzo Lucioni
Duesseldorf - DE
lorenzo.luci...@gmail.com

Re: [Origami] Books discussions + Re: Tanteidan Convention book #1 (1995)

[Laura R via Origami]

> On Dec 31, 2022, at 2:23 PM, Anne LaVin via Origami 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 7:40 AM Lorenzo via Origami 
> mailto:origami@lists.digitalorigami.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Just a note about this topic (books/publications): 

> So, please, keep contacting me privately, if interested in discussing about 
> collecting books, as we can sort out a proper solution (such as a public FB 
> page which anyone can consult, without having the email inbox flooded).
> 
> I will play devil's advocate, here, and ask *why* a group mailing list is not 
> a "proper" solution for this discussion? Even if a particular topic is of 
> interest to only part of the community, isn't that nearly always true, for 
> any given thread? 
> 
> While I am the first to agree that the use of email (and the technology that 
> people use to read and send it) has not evolved in a way that makes true 
> discussion lists all that common any more, this is a pretty low-traffic list 
> at the moment. It could, in my opinion, certainly withstand some regular 
> discussion of something as important to the community as origami books and 
> other publications.

The problem with emails is that they often get lost unless one is a very 
organized person (not my case). If I want to go back to a discussion, unless I 
have created a folder for said topic, I will struggle to find all the emails 
related to it. 

Years ago there was a great forum administrated by Nick Robinson. It was called 
Didactis and Research of Folding. Unfortunately, it stopped working and today 
it is unavailable (Wayback machine keeps some pages of the old 
www.forum.foldingdidactics.com). 

I felt sorry for that and wanted a place where people could continue posting in 
an organized manner. For that, I created the Origami Forum 
(https://laurarozenb.wixsite.com/origamiforum) which allows to create topics, 
follow theme, have followers, receive notifications by emails, among other 
benefits. Any person can sign up and start participating. Of course you can 
create a topic about “Books”. The new forum may not have the popularity of the 
old one, but if more people sign up, it may become a good tool. Again, all new 
postings are notified via email to members, so it also works for people who 
forget to check the forum regularly. The URL has my name because that’s the 
free account. In order to change to a more logical name, I would have to pay 
Wix.com  an annual fee. 

Laura Rozenberg

Re: [Origami] Books discussions + Re: Tanteidan Convention book #1 (1995)

[Jeff Satterwhite via Origami]

I think finding rare books generally is a unique struggle.. I once wrote a
detailed post of my attack methods (
https://snkhan.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15188 ), and they have been
effective but there are limitations.

Particularly, I have no advice on OTC #1, it is truly brutal and I don't
own it myself. I once saw OTC #1, 2, 4 & 5 in an auction about 2018 and I
left bidding when it was too rough for me, the block sold for like 25
JPY / $2500 USD and I still think it was the closest I ever got.

All you can do is be persistent, and mill the Japanese language auction
sites 10x a day (sorta not joking--when these post, poof--remember there
are daytime Japanese users seeing these items post fresh and they are savvy
purchasers), get lucky, or bid at an organized convention.

I feel regret for publications like OTC #1-x, they're beautiful and windows
into the advancement of origami, but yeah they're available-ish in PDF to
the persistent. It's certainly not ideal. But other gems like OMSE #1, 2
simply don't exist. You can't find them anywhere basically..

All that is to say: I support reaching out to this community with this
question. It's a hard one, and what better community to ask.

Jeff

On Sat, Dec 31, 2022, 11:32 AM wanderer via Origami <
origami@lists.digitalorigami.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone! & happy new year too.
>
> I think that if we created separate FB groups for each topic that we
> thought would flood the o-list, that now puts the onus on people to go
> visit each of those groups. I think there’d be less discussion. Imo.
>
> Also - I wonder - why should origami things be differentiated so minutely.
> If there was a FB group on, let’s say some specialty paper or something,
> that ppl deemed was such a specialized topic, how would I even know whether
> this topic would interest me or not - if it wasn’t on the o-list.
>
> Btw, no one can know beforehand, whether what they post will interest one
> or 100 ppl. So why would you separate topics then? How can one know what
> topics will bother someone or not? That line of thinking doesn’t make sense
> to me. Post what one wants, as it relates to origami, and let ppl on the
> list respond as they see fit.
>
> Even if email is now sorta considered old-skool, I think the beauty of the
> o-list as it is now, is that everyone can voice their ideas, in one place…
> and true, some interest me and some don’t. But that’s how group
> conversations go. But luckily, I don’t have to go to x number of FB groups
> to follow origami related chat.
>
> That’s my 2cents.
>
> Vishakha
> NYC
>
> .
>
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2022, at 13:31, Anne LaVin via Origami <
> origami@lists.digitalorigami.com> wrote:
>
> 
> First off, let me wish all the O-list members, far and near, a very happy
> new year!
>
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 7:40 AM Lorenzo via Origami <
> origami@lists.digitalorigami.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Just a note about this topic (books/publications): I held back from
>> sending these kinds of messages to the list, in the past, because I thought
>> (and still think) these are interesting topics for a small part of the
>> origamists only. And I didn't want to bother the list.
>> Recently, I received only a few signs of interest for a separate group
>> (focused to books/publications only). Too few, in my opinion, to give life
>> to something that has a future, and certainly I don't want to promote any
>> separation or "restricted" group, at all, and furthermore I'm also
>> discontinuous in my activities, so it has to be a shared effort.
>> So, please, keep contacting me privately, if interested in discussing
>> about collecting books, as we can sort out a proper solution (such as a
>> public FB page which anyone can consult, without having the email inbox
>> flooded).
>>
>
> I will play devil's advocate, here, and ask *why* a group mailing list is
> not a "proper" solution for this discussion? Even if a particular topic is
> of interest to only part of the community, isn't that nearly always true,
> for any given thread?
>
> While I am the first to agree that the use of email (and the technology
> that people use to read and send it) has not evolved in a way that makes
> true discussion lists all that common any more, this is a pretty
> low-traffic list at the moment. It could, in my opinion, certainly
> withstand some regular discussion of something as important to the
> community as origami books and other publications.
>
> If that level of list traffic were to be perceived as a "flood", or if
> this sort of thing is somehow no longer desired by the list membership,
> well, does anyone have a better idea for some sort of forum that would
> support such a discussion? Should we finally find another underlying
> solution for a home for the O-list community?
>
> Personally, I do not think that a social-media page is really that great a
> way to have a discussion; but then, email has its own limitations, too.
> Honestly, no matter what you do, it's hard to have a 

Re: [Origami] Books discussions + Re: Tanteidan Convention book #1 (1995)

[wanderer via Origami]

Hi everyone! & happy new year too. I think that if we created separate FB groups for each topic that we thought would flood the o-list, that now puts the onus on people to go visit each of those groups. I think there’d be less discussion. Imo. Also - I wonder - why should origami things be differentiated so minutely. If there was a FB group on, let’s say some specialty paper or something, that ppl deemed was such a specialized topic, how would I even know whether this topic would interest me or not - if it wasn’t on the o-list.Btw, no one can know beforehand, whether what they post will interest one or 100 ppl. So why would you separate topics then? How can one know what topics will bother someone or not? That line of thinking doesn’t make sense to me. Post what one wants, as it relates to origami, and let ppl on the list respond as they see fit. Even if email is now sorta considered old-skool, I think the beauty of the o-list as it is now, is that everyone can voice their ideas, in one place… and true, some interest me and some don’t. But that’s how group conversations go. But luckily, I don’t have to go to x number of FB groups to follow origami related chat. That’s my 2cents. VishakhaNYC.On Dec 31, 2022, at 13:31, Anne LaVin via Origami  wrote:First off, let me wish all the O-list members, far and near, a very happy new year!On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 7:40 AM Lorenzo via Origami  wrote:Just a note about this topic (books/publications): I held back from sending these kinds of messages to the list, in the past, because I thought (and still think) these are interesting topics for a small part of the origamists only. And I didn't want to bother the list.Recently, I received only a few signs of interest for a separate group (focused to books/publications only). Too few, in my opinion, to give life to something that has a future, and certainly I don't want to promote any separation or "restricted" group, at all, and furthermore I'm also discontinuous in my activities, so it has to be a shared effort.So, please, keep contacting me privately, if interested in discussing about collecting books, as we can sort out a proper solution (such as a public FB page which anyone can consult, without having the email inbox flooded).I will play devil's advocate, here, and ask *why* a group mailing list is not a "proper" solution for this discussion? Even if a particular topic is of interest to only part of the community, isn't that nearly always true, for any given thread? While I am the first to agree that the use of email (and the technology that people use to read and send it) has not evolved in a way that makes true discussion lists all that common any more, this is a pretty low-traffic list at the moment. It could, in my opinion, certainly withstand some regular discussion of something as important to the community as origami books and other publications.If that level of list traffic were to be perceived as a "flood", or if this sort of thing is somehow no longer desired by the list membership, well, does anyone have a better idea for some sort of forum that would support such a discussion? Should we finally find another underlying solution for a home for the O-list community?Personally, I do not think that a social-media page is really that great a way to have a discussion; but then, email has its own limitations, too. Honestly, no matter what you do, it's hard to have a *conversation* with 1200 people!  - Email lists lately seem to mostly get used for one-way, announcement-style stuff;  - Facebook pages require a user to "go" to a spot to make sure they see all the new material (and even then The Algorithm tries hard to only show you what it thinks you want) and then dig through nested comments to follow a conversation; and don't even go into what happens when users have blocked or unfollowed each other so that no one can actually see a whole thread;  - other social media's interfaces tend to focus on the imagery (still or video);  - forums or bulletin-board-like setups require a user to "go" there, and then typically sub-divide content to the point that conversations die out because they get hopelessly specificAnd few systems are going to make it easy for folks to discuss something for more than a few back-and-forth comments if they're coming in on a phone or similar device.It comes down to what specific sort of conversation does one want, and on what topic, and how do you want people to interact with it, what people, how often, etc.?  I think if one can try to nail down some of those answers, then there's hope of creating a viable place for a particular online (sub)-community to exist.I have a server which could run any number of things - would something other than email be useful, here?Anne

Re: [Origami] Books discussions + Re: Tanteidan Convention book #1 (1995)

[Anne LaVin via Origami]

First off, let me wish all the O-list members, far and near, a very happy
new year!

On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 7:40 AM Lorenzo via Origami <
origami@lists.digitalorigami.com> wrote:

>
> Just a note about this topic (books/publications): I held back from
> sending these kinds of messages to the list, in the past, because I thought
> (and still think) these are interesting topics for a small part of the
> origamists only. And I didn't want to bother the list.
> Recently, I received only a few signs of interest for a separate group
> (focused to books/publications only). Too few, in my opinion, to give life
> to something that has a future, and certainly I don't want to promote any
> separation or "restricted" group, at all, and furthermore I'm also
> discontinuous in my activities, so it has to be a shared effort.
> So, please, keep contacting me privately, if interested in discussing
> about collecting books, as we can sort out a proper solution (such as a
> public FB page which anyone can consult, without having the email inbox
> flooded).
>

I will play devil's advocate, here, and ask *why* a group mailing list is
not a "proper" solution for this discussion? Even if a particular topic is
of interest to only part of the community, isn't that nearly always true,
for any given thread?

While I am the first to agree that the use of email (and the technology
that people use to read and send it) has not evolved in a way that makes
true discussion lists all that common any more, this is a pretty
low-traffic list at the moment. It could, in my opinion, certainly
withstand some regular discussion of something as important to the
community as origami books and other publications.

If that level of list traffic were to be perceived as a "flood", or if this
sort of thing is somehow no longer desired by the list membership, well,
does anyone have a better idea for some sort of forum that would support
such a discussion? Should we finally find another underlying solution for a
home for the O-list community?

Personally, I do not think that a social-media page is really that great a
way to have a discussion; but then, email has its own limitations, too.
Honestly, no matter what you do, it's hard to have a *conversation* with
1200 people!

 - Email lists lately seem to mostly get used for one-way,
announcement-style stuff;

 - Facebook pages require a user to "go" to a spot to make sure they see
all the new material (and even then The Algorithm tries hard to only show
you what it thinks you want) and then dig through nested comments to follow
a conversation; and don't even go into what happens when users have blocked
or unfollowed each other so that no one can actually see a whole thread;

 - other social media's interfaces tend to focus on the imagery (still or
video);

 - forums or bulletin-board-like setups require a user to "go" there, and
then typically sub-divide content to the point that conversations die out
because they get hopelessly specific

And few systems are going to make it easy for folks to discuss something
for more than a few back-and-forth comments if they're coming in on a phone
or similar device.

It comes down to what specific sort of conversation does one want, and on
what topic, and how do you want people to interact with it, what people,
how often, etc.?  I think if one can try to nail down some of those
answers, then there's hope of creating a viable place for a particular
online (sub)-community to exist.

I have a server which could run any number of things - would something
other than email be useful, here?

Anne