Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On 14/6/08, Derby Chang, discombobulated, unleashed: * The 1:1 finder is something you have to try to know how freeing it is. It allows you to have both eyes open, framelines floating in space. When focusing is critical, or in low-light and the rangefinder image is a bit dim, I close my right eye, but otherwise, it's look and shoot Thanks Derby. If shooting street, then I frequently set ISO to 800, aperture to f8, and hyperfocus, so no focus required before shooting. -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
At 01:23 PM 13/06/2008, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: Ok then. Have it your way, believe whatever it is you want to believe, whether right or wrong. Carry on bitching about something you know little about, that few if any of you have even touched never mind experienced for yourself. I'm done with this thread. Another grand waste of time. Time to up your HRT dosage. D -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Forgive me, Oh Great Godfrey, for presuming to know anything without your assent. Git Anthony Farr (not born yesterday) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Godfrey DiGiorgi Sent: Friday, 13 June 2008 3:23 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test Ok then. Have it your way, believe whatever it is you want to believe, whether right or wrong. Carry on bitching about something you know little about, that few if any of you have even touched never mind experienced for yourself. I'm done with this thread. Another grand waste of time. Godfrey PS: Tina Manley took her M8 to India recently and brought back delightful photos made with it. She's brought it to South America, Central America, and other places as well. She also has a Canon DSLR kit (5D, I think) and finds the M8 produces better photographs. http://www.tinamanley.com On Jun 12, 2008, at 7:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot of the pro photographers I know own a Leica M8. Very few use it. Paul -- Original message -- From: Anthony Farr [EMAIL PROTECTED] No argument from me about those points, William. The Leica seems ill-conceived for its traditional purpose. As others have said, the new purpose of a Leica is as bling, or investment on the collectors market. A camera's prestige value should flow downwards from the pointy end of professional usage, but Leica apparently seeks to redefine prestige as flowing upwards from the lowest common denominator of how much cash can we screw out of our wealthy clientele who don't know shit from clay. When Godfrey points out that many pro-photographers are successfully using M8s, I am reminded that many pro-photographers could produce art from a Diana. That's no great defense for the Leica, it's praise for those photographers. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Friday, 13 June 2008 11:29 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test - Original Message - From: Anthony Farr Subject: RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test I'm not talking about you of course, Mark, because I don't recall you ever bitching and moaning about the onerous burden of using a modern camera. The guy isn't bitching about using a modern camera, he is bitching that his modern Leica is fundamentally useless in any of the parameters that a photographer uses to determine usability, and doesn't perform as well as cameras five or more years old. The camera needs to be disassembled to check if there is a memory card in it. Neither auto nor maual white balance seems reliable for giving consistent white balance. The camera is useless to him (and honestly to most anyone else) because the images at ISO's above 640 were too noisy. Auto exposure was unreliable. Furthermore, an *istD outperforms it's buffer size and write speeds. In November 2006, I wrote about the M8 They (Leica) just bought themselves a coffin and a gun. Bye-Bye Leica. It appears that in a year and a half, they haven't corrected any of the problems with the camera. That is absolutely unacceptable for a 10K piece of equipment. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
frank theriault wrote: On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I think he inadvertently summed it up with this: The Leica M3 of the 1950's was an instant success, not because Leica held to quaint design and outdated technology (i.e. the M8's removable bottom plate) in a misplaced effort to attract classicists, but because they used new technology to build a camera that was on the cutting edge of its time. Leica isn't building cameras for him, the real photojournalist, but for classicists, the kind of Leicaphiles who now constitute the majority of their customer base. http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq I thought exactly the same as you. It's amazing that one can buy virtually any consumer/entry-level dslr that outperforms the Leica at 1/20th the price. It's moot anyway, but when I'm ready to go digital rangefinder, I guess it'll be an Epson. Or does Voigtlander have theirs out yet? I haven't been paying attention... Pity that Leica has fallen so far so quickly. cheers, frank Unfortunately, the Epson is the Voightlander, and more unfortunate is that Epson doesn't seem in any hurry to produce a follow on product and just to make this sentence more unwieldy, one of the problems of the Epson/Voightlander is the lack of good wide angle lenses, due to the crop factor. -- Vote for Cthulhu. Why settle for a lesser evil... -- Dr. Jerry Pournelle -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 9:22 AM, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: frank theriault wrote: On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I think he inadvertently summed it up with this: The Leica M3 of the 1950's was an instant success, not because Leica held to quaint design and outdated technology (i.e. the M8's removable bottom plate) in a misplaced effort to attract classicists, but because they used new technology to build a camera that was on the cutting edge of its time. Leica isn't building cameras for him, the real photojournalist, but for classicists, the kind of Leicaphiles who now constitute the majority of their customer base. http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq I thought exactly the same as you. It's amazing that one can buy virtually any consumer/entry-level dslr that outperforms the Leica at 1/20th the price. It's moot anyway, but when I'm ready to go digital rangefinder, I guess it'll be an Epson. Or does Voigtlander have theirs out yet? I haven't been paying attention... Pity that Leica has fallen so far so quickly. cheers, frank Unfortunately, the Epson is the Voightlander, and more unfortunate is that Epson doesn't seem in any hurry to produce a follow on product and just to make this sentence more unwieldy, one of the problems of the Epson/Voightlander is the lack of good wide angle lenses, due to the crop factor. Epson was using Voightlander/Cosina bodies, but it wasn't a Voightlander project. Rumour does have it that a Zeiss Ikon-based DRF is under development, and there's also persistent strong rumours that Nikon has a DRF project as well in either M or Nikon S mount. -- M. Adam Maas http://www.mawz.ca Explorations of the City Around Us. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On 13/6/08, Anthony Farr, discombobulated, unleashed: This photographer should understand that and get over it, then modify his style to accommodate it, if he wants to use autoexposure that is. Or he can just work as sports and news traditionally did, precalculate his exposure, and precalculate any ad hoc variations like the shady end of the street gets +2 stops, or the pool of light outside that window gets -3 stops. Or he can go back to his Canon and quit whinging until Leica either goes bust or delivers the camera he wants. Or he should try the R-D1 :) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Jun 12, 2008, at 11:47 PM, David Savage wrote: Time to up your HRT dosage. Not entirely sure I'm interested in listening to more HRT http://www.hrtrocks.com/ but thanks for the music recommendation. What it might have to do with the stupidity of implying the Leica M8 sucks with no first hand knowledge of it at all is beyond me. But feel free to carry on. A Git -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or he should try the R-D1 :) So, seriously, Cotty. I know you're not a war photographer, but you've used an R-D1 for some time now, and you seem more than satisfied with it. Presumably you've read Kambers report. How do you think the R-D1 would stack up vis-a-vis his complaints of the M8? Buffer, low light, white balance, colour correction, auto exposure and all that? cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
frank theriault wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or he should try the R-D1 :) Presumably you've read Kambers report. How do you think the R-D1 would stack up vis-a-vis his complaints of the M8? Buffer, low light, white balance, colour correction, auto exposure and all that? Who cares? It has a film advance lever! -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On 13/6/08, frank theriault, discombobulated, unleashed: Presumably you've read Kambers report. How do you think the R-D1 would stack up vis-a-vis his complaints of the M8? Buffer, low light, white balance, colour correction, auto exposure and all that? Crickey. You want blood don't you. Okay, here goes. Framelines. There are three on the camera: 28, 35 and 50. They are set manually by a small lever on the top plate. The lever is easily knocked. Would need taping down for the war photog. http://www.richcutler.co.uk/r-d1/r-d1_04.htm Controls. Nothing else is easily knocked. The LCD screen and controls for it are easily tucked away and present no surfaces to be accidentally pressed. http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/0403/epsonrd1-05.jpg The SD card door is tightly held shut by a spring, and opened thus: http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/2102-4.jpg The controls on the top (shutter speed, ISO dial, wind-on lever) are very sturdy and not easily moved, although the wind-on lever could get caught on clothing. Never happened to me. The shutter speed dial locks on 'AE' and a small button next to wind-on lever is pressed to release the shutter speed dial. Some people disable this function to allow free rotation of the shutter speed dial. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Epson_R- D1_Digital_Rangefinder_Camera.jpg ISO. The sensor is a 1.6 crop Sony CCD as used in Pentax and Nikon cameras (bottom of this page. http://www.richcutler.co.uk/r-d1/r-d1_14.htm The quality of ISO 800 and 1600 (max) files is very good. Read about it here, 'File Quality', just below the dude with the ciggy crossing the street: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/epson-rd1.shtml Here's an ISO 800 shot from me: http://www.cottysnaps.com/snaps/reportage/images/pic44.html Mind you, ISO 1600 is a paltry limit for the war photog. Not much use to him I dare say. Fine for me and maybe even you, but could be limiting for those pesky night patrols. Well, at least no danger of the LCD backlight accidentally coming on ;) Exposure control. Well, twirl the shutter speed dial if you like manual, or leave it on AE. Also + and - 2 stops either side in 1/3 stop increments, right on the dial. No menus to navigate. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Epson_R- D1_Digital_Rangefinder_Camera.jpg Other than that, turn the aperture ring on the lens :) I find AE to be spot-on. I do shoot RAW, but even the jpegs are well-exposed. Colour correction? RAW again. Actually, I use the R-D1 as a black and white camera. The LCD is set to display only mono on review, even though the files are recorded RAW. This helps me with my thought processes as I shoot, thinking in black and white. Just like having a roll of HP5 in the camera. Works for me. Automatic exposure. No complaints, as mentioned above. Very consistent. Read the Luminous Landscape review in full for further info. Speeds in finder. Red LED reflection at centre bottom of finder indicates current shutter speed. It's very bright and no problem seeing in bright ambient light. Low light capability. Highest ISO 1600. I use two lenses, a 28 1.9 and a 50 1.5 so work it out for yourself. I have no complaints, but then again, I'm not shooting by the light of a surge of static electricity on the arse of a gnat attached to a coalition pilot's ear at 265mph, 30 feet over the dunes at midnight. What I do know is that there is no ugly artifacts or banding in the shadows of my ISO1600 files. Buffer and slugishness. The winder is very cool - cocks the shutter. If i shoot a seq of pics, I tend to wind with the camera away from my face, eyeing up further possibilities. Shoot, lower and wind, raise and shoot, repeat. Each of those cycles takes about 1 second. Sometimes I don't lower, just wind and shoot. After half a dozen shots, it's not as fast, after a dozen it slows a bit. No good for our war photog. More info here, about halfway down, just below the pic of the top-plate: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/epson-rd1.shtml Overall sluggishness. I find switch-on time to be a couple of seconds, cycling through the pics on review (LCD) lightning fast (as fast as the 1Dmarkll), no detectable shutter lag at all. It feels absolutely fast and crisp. SD card removal. Very fast. Easily swap out a card without looking, maybe in a pocket. Better would be the dual card setup like the 1D series. Keep two cards in, one a decoy. Pull out the real card, just leave the decoy ready to hand over under duress to burly army-types and pixel peeping SD-phobes Build quality. I would go so far as to say that it is on a par with my 1D mark II, if not better. The only perceptible vulnerability is the swing-away LCD. But if kept in place, either LCD out or LCD in, will not swing open by default. This camera has Epson as the manufacturer's stamp - but to be honest, 'JCB' would not be out of place. This would be of great use to our war photog. Conclusion. I am so happy
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Cotty wrote: On 13/6/08, frank theriault, discombobulated, unleashed: Presumably you've read Kambers report. How do you think the R-D1 would stack up vis-a-vis his complaints of the M8? Buffer, low light, white balance, colour correction, auto exposure and all that? Crickey. You want blood don't you. Okay, here goes. Framelines. There are three on the camera: 28, 35 and 50. They are set manually by a small lever on the top plate. The lever is easily knocked. Would need taping down for the war photog. http://www.richcutler.co.uk/r-d1/r-d1_04.htm Controls. Nothing else is easily knocked. The LCD screen and controls for it are easily tucked away and present no surfaces to be accidentally pressed. http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/0403/epsonrd1-05.jpg The SD card door is tightly held shut by a spring, and opened thus: http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/2102-4.jpg The controls on the top (shutter speed, ISO dial, wind-on lever) are very sturdy and not easily moved, although the wind-on lever could get caught on clothing. Never happened to me. The shutter speed dial locks on 'AE' and a small button next to wind-on lever is pressed to release the shutter speed dial. Some people disable this function to allow free rotation of the shutter speed dial. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Epson_R- D1_Digital_Rangefinder_Camera.jpg ISO. The sensor is a 1.6 crop Sony CCD as used in Pentax and Nikon cameras (bottom of this page. http://www.richcutler.co.uk/r-d1/r-d1_14.htm The quality of ISO 800 and 1600 (max) files is very good. Read about it here, 'File Quality', just below the dude with the ciggy crossing the street: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/epson-rd1.shtml Here's an ISO 800 shot from me: http://www.cottysnaps.com/snaps/reportage/images/pic44.html Mind you, ISO 1600 is a paltry limit for the war photog. Not much use to him I dare say. Fine for me and maybe even you, but could be limiting for those pesky night patrols. Well, at least no danger of the LCD backlight accidentally coming on ;) Exposure control. Well, twirl the shutter speed dial if you like manual, or leave it on AE. Also + and - 2 stops either side in 1/3 stop increments, right on the dial. No menus to navigate. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Epson_R- D1_Digital_Rangefinder_Camera.jpg Other than that, turn the aperture ring on the lens :) I find AE to be spot-on. I do shoot RAW, but even the jpegs are well-exposed. Colour correction? RAW again. Actually, I use the R-D1 as a black and white camera. The LCD is set to display only mono on review, even though the files are recorded RAW. This helps me with my thought processes as I shoot, thinking in black and white. Just like having a roll of HP5 in the camera. Works for me. Automatic exposure. No complaints, as mentioned above. Very consistent. Read the Luminous Landscape review in full for further info. Speeds in finder. Red LED reflection at centre bottom of finder indicates current shutter speed. It's very bright and no problem seeing in bright ambient light. Low light capability. Highest ISO 1600. I use two lenses, a 28 1.9 and a 50 1.5 so work it out for yourself. I have no complaints, but then again, I'm not shooting by the light of a surge of static electricity on the arse of a gnat attached to a coalition pilot's ear at 265mph, 30 feet over the dunes at midnight. What I do know is that there is no ugly artifacts or banding in the shadows of my ISO1600 files. Buffer and slugishness. The winder is very cool - cocks the shutter. If i shoot a seq of pics, I tend to wind with the camera away from my face, eyeing up further possibilities. Shoot, lower and wind, raise and shoot, repeat. Each of those cycles takes about 1 second. Sometimes I don't lower, just wind and shoot. After half a dozen shots, it's not as fast, after a dozen it slows a bit. No good for our war photog. More info here, about halfway down, just below the pic of the top-plate: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/epson-rd1.shtml Overall sluggishness. I find switch-on time to be a couple of seconds, cycling through the pics on review (LCD) lightning fast (as fast as the 1Dmarkll), no detectable shutter lag at all. It feels absolutely fast and crisp. SD card removal. Very fast. Easily swap out a card without looking, maybe in a pocket. Better would be the dual card setup like the 1D series. Keep two cards in, one a decoy. Pull out the real card, just leave the decoy ready to hand over under duress to burly army-types and pixel peeping SD-phobes Build quality. I would go so far as to say that it is on a par with my 1D mark II, if not better. The only perceptible vulnerability is the swing-away LCD. But if kept in place, either LCD out or LCD in, will not swing open by default. This camera has Epson as the manufacturer's stamp - but to be honest,
RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Film rangefinders are instant on and shoot. When one of my nephews played around with my M3 he stared at in confusion for a while, then asked how do you switch it on?. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
- Original Message - From: Cotty [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have no complaints, but then again, I'm not shooting by the light of a surge of static electricity on the arse of a gnat attached to a coalition pilot's ear at 265mph, 30 feet over the dunes at midnight. MARK! for the record: this is my 1st Mark! Cheers, Christine -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
That works for many. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cotty Sent: Saturday, 14 June 2008 4:03 AM To: pentax list Subject: Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test On 13/6/08, Anthony Farr, discombobulated, unleashed: This photographer should understand that and get over it, then modify his style to accommodate it, if he wants to use autoexposure that is. Or he can just work as sports and news traditionally did, precalculate his exposure, and precalculate any ad hoc variations like the shady end of the street gets +2 stops, or the pool of light outside that window gets -3 stops. Or he can go back to his Canon and quit whinging until Leica either goes bust or delivers the camera he wants. Or he should try the R-D1 :) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
I've read the first page, and will read the rest but I found it Ironic that he complains about the way the M8 works on a web page that doesn't display or resize properly in Firefox, a web browser that handles HTML standards better than any other... Bruce Walker wrote: A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -bmw -- Vote for Cthulhu. Why settle for a lesser evil... -- Dr. Jerry Pournelle -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
He is a war photographer not a web designer :o) On 6/12/08, P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've read the first page, and will read the rest but I found it Ironic that he complains about the way the M8 works on a web page that doesn't display or resize properly in Firefox, a web browser that handles HTML standards better than any other... Bruce Walker wrote: A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -bmw -- Vote for Cthulhu. Why settle for a lesser evil... -- Dr. Jerry Pournelle -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/ferand/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
I finished reading the article, and he has a reason to be unhappy. Unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that no manufacturer really makes cameras for photographers anymore, they make them for accountants and marketeers it the devices just happen to take pictures so much the better. Not to take away from his complaints my observation below still stands. P. J. Alling wrote: I've read the first page, and will read the rest but I found it Ironic that he complains about the way the M8 works on a web page that doesn't display or resize properly in Firefox, a web browser that handles HTML standards better than any other... Bruce Walker wrote: A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -bmw -- Vote for Cthulhu. Why settle for a lesser evil... -- Dr. Jerry Pournelle -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
P. J. Alling wrote: I've read the first page, and will read the rest but I found it Ironic that he complains about the way the M8 works on a web page that doesn't display or resize properly in Firefox, a web browser that handles HTML standards better than any other... What do journalists know about standards? g That was a good read. The horror stories about that camera seem to be endless. I hope most M8 owners have better luck than he did. Bruce Walker wrote: A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -bmw -- Scott Loveless http://www.twosixteen.com/fivetoedsloth/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
I guess it sucks to be an M8 owner. (Complaints at Pentax are minor by comparison.) My take, don't buy an electronic camera from the premier mechanical camera maker Regards, Bob S. On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Bruce Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Scott Loveless wrote: P. J. Alling wrote: I've read the first page, and will read the rest but I found it Ironic that he complains about the way the M8 works on a web page that doesn't display or resize properly in Firefox, a web browser that handles HTML standards better than any other... What do journalists know about standards? g In this case, he's simply using a WYSIWYG web page tool that isn't very good. (BTW: Opera is much better with web standards than Firefox2 - try the ACID2 test: http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html) That was a good read. The horror stories about that camera seem to be endless. I hope most M8 owners have better luck than he did. I think he inadvertently summed it up with this: The Leica M3 of the 1950’s was an instant success, not because Leica held to quaint design and outdated technology (i.e. the M8’s removable bottom plate) in a misplaced effort to attract classicists, but because they used new technology to build a camera that was on the cutting edge of its time. Leica isn't building cameras for him, the real photojournalist, but for classicists, the kind of Leicaphiles who now constitute the majority of their customer base. http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Interesting read, thanks for posting. Ya think he'll be on Leica's christmas list? Kenneth Waller http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f - Original Message - From: Bruce Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Lump of coal for sure... On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Ken Waller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting read, thanks for posting. Ya think he'll be on Leica's christmas list? Kenneth Waller http://www.tinyurl.com/272u2f - Original Message - From: Bruce Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:43 AM, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I think he inadvertently summed it up with this: The Leica M3 of the 1950's was an instant success, not because Leica held to quaint design and outdated technology (i.e. the M8's removable bottom plate) in a misplaced effort to attract classicists, but because they used new technology to build a camera that was on the cutting edge of its time. Leica isn't building cameras for him, the real photojournalist, but for classicists, the kind of Leicaphiles who now constitute the majority of their customer base. http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq I thought exactly the same as you. It's amazing that one can buy virtually any consumer/entry-level dslr that outperforms the Leica at 1/20th the price. It's moot anyway, but when I'm ready to go digital rangefinder, I guess it'll be an Epson. Or does Voigtlander have theirs out yet? I haven't been paying attention... Pity that Leica has fallen so far so quickly. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Bruce: Thanks so much for posting this. It was an excellent read. I learned tons from it! Cheers, Christine - Original Message - From: Bruce Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 8:22 AM Subject: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Jun 12, 2008, at 8:22, Bruce Walker wrote: A fascinating look into *really* real world use of photo equipment ... http://web.mac.com/kamberm/Leica_M8_Field_Test,_Iraq Wow! How disappointing, frustrating, aggravating that must be. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org I am riding in the MS-TRAM this summer. Please consider sponsoring me! http://charles.robinsontwins.org/mstram.htm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that no manufacturer really makes cameras for photographers anymore, I haven't read the M8 article yet, but I do take issue with this point. I think the top end Olympuses are very much photographers' cameras. I suspect the same is true of the Nikons and Canons. I really like my M3 and M4-2, but I haven't used them for ages, and I think my Olympus E-1 is a much better camera than even my LX was, and there's no doubt that the LX was a photographers' camera. Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: 12 June 2008 15:11 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test I finished reading the article, and he has a reason to be unhappy. Unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that no manufacturer really makes cameras for photographers anymore, they make them for accountants and marketeers it the devices just happen to take pictures so much the better. Not to take away from his complaints my observation below still stands. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
My thoughts too, Bob. The E-1 is a professionally capable axe like my Nikon F3/T+MD-4 was, and more capable in several ways. And actually the Leica M8 is another photographer's camera ... it's just not designed as appropriate for combat conditions, which the TotL Olympus, Nikon and Canon cameras are. I'm kinda surprised that this combat photojournalist would consider an M8 as appropriate to his field work after using a loaner. I could tell immediately from fooling with it at the store that it fits in the class of use that the K10D and L1 fit in, not the kind of bash around rugged piece that the E-1/E-3, Canon 1D II, or Nikon D3 were designed to be. Godfrey On Jun 12, 2008, at 11:53 AM, Bob W wrote: Unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that no manufacturer really makes cameras for photographers anymore, I haven't read the M8 article yet, but I do take issue with this point. I think the top end Olympuses are very much photographers' cameras. I suspect the same is true of the Nikons and Canons. I really like my M3 and M4-2, but I haven't used them for ages, and I think my Olympus E-1 is a much better camera than even my LX was, and there's no doubt that the LX was a photographers' camera. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
I also find it somewhat ironic that an article which criticises Leica for poor usability has the extremely stupid return to top to change pages at the bottom of each page. Why not just replicate the selection bar, for heavens sake? It would take up no more space than the current design, On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:04:05PM -0700, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: My thoughts too, Bob. The E-1 is a professionally capable axe like my Nikon F3/T+MD-4 was, and more capable in several ways. And actually the Leica M8 is another photographer's camera ... it's just not designed as appropriate for combat conditions, which the TotL Olympus, Nikon and Canon cameras are. I'm kinda surprised that this combat photojournalist would consider an M8 as appropriate to his field work after using a loaner. I could tell immediately from fooling with it at the store that it fits in the class of use that the K10D and L1 fit in, not the kind of bash around rugged piece that the E-1/E-3, Canon 1D II, or Nikon D3 were designed to be. Godfrey On Jun 12, 2008, at 11:53 AM, Bob W wrote: Unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that no manufacturer really makes cameras for photographers anymore, I haven't read the M8 article yet, but I do take issue with this point. I think the top end Olympuses are very much photographers' cameras. I suspect the same is true of the Nikons and Canons. I really like my M3 and M4-2, but I haven't used them for ages, and I think my Olympus E-1 is a much better camera than even my LX was, and there's no doubt that the LX was a photographers' camera. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My thoughts too, Bob. The E-1 is a professionally capable axe like my Nikon F3/T+MD-4 was, and more capable in several ways. And actually the Leica M8 is another photographer's camera ... it's just not designed as appropriate for combat conditions, which the TotL Olympus, Nikon and Canon cameras are. I'm kinda surprised that this combat photojournalist would consider an M8 as appropriate to his field work after using a loaner. I could tell immediately from fooling with it at the store that it fits in the class of use that the K10D and L1 fit in, not the kind of bash around rugged piece that the E-1/E-3, Canon 1D II, or Nikon D3 were designed to be. Well, whether it was designed to be a war photographer's tool or not, it's low-light capabilities are shocking, and rather sad given Leica's legacy of lenses such as the Noctilux. It sounds like it's just a horrible camera at virtually any price, let alone $10K. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Jun 12, 2008, at 12:37 PM, frank theriault wrote: Well, whether it was designed to be a war photographer's tool or not, it's low-light capabilities are shocking, and rather sad given Leica's legacy of lenses such as the Noctilux. It sounds like it's just a horrible camera at virtually any price, let alone $10K. The M8 may indeed have its limitations, but to call it a horrible camera at virtually any price is way overboard. Not having had one to work with, I'll reserve judgement on the M8's low light capabilities. I have seen low light work done with one that looked very good, however. It's worth nothing that both the Olympus E-1 and Panasonic L1 bodies, which are often disparaged for high ISO noise, etc, I find to be surprisingly good at low light work. It's at the point where I simply do not believe any opinions offered on the net on this subject as credible: I prefer to judge only after I've worked with and evaluated the equipment myself. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Jun 12, 2008, at 14:52, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: It's worth nothing that both the Olympus E-1 and Panasonic L1 bodies, which are often disparaged for high ISO noise, etc, I find to be surprisingly good at low light work. c/nothing/noting :-) Or at least I hope that's what you meant! -Charles -- Charles Robinson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org I am riding in the MS-TRAM this summer. Please consider sponsoring me! http://charles.robinsontwins.org/mstram.htm -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The M8 may indeed have its limitations, but to call it a horrible camera at virtually any price is way overboard. snip I said it ~sounds~ like a horrible camera at virtually any price, and of course, I'm going by Kamber's review/critique. I have no personal experience with it, so I'm only going by what he says. If he hadn't provided images to back up much of what he says, I might not have believed him, but the white balance problems, the fluctuating exposure and the low-light difficulties have been documented in the report. Add to that what he says about the buffer, and the need to get into the menu to do what other cameras can do from the body, and all the other things he mentions makes me stick by what I said: It ~sounds~ like a horrible camera at virtually any price... Geez, I've got a first-generation Pentax digital body that does a lot better than his in virtually every problem that he mentions... cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
frank theriault wrote: Geez, I've got a first-generation Pentax digital body that does a lot better than his in virtually every problem that he mentions... Yep, the usability issues sound pretty terrible. The remove the bottom plate to swap memory cards thing is inexcusable. It sounds like they made the camera for the cardiologist/camera-collector crowd who'll keep it on the shelf 99% of the time and proudly show it off to guests every now and then. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:38 PM, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: frank theriault wrote: Geez, I've got a first-generation Pentax digital body that does a lot better than his in virtually every problem that he mentions... Yep, the usability issues sound pretty terrible. The remove the bottom plate to swap memory cards thing is inexcusable. It sounds like they made the camera for the cardiologist/camera-collector crowd who'll keep it on the shelf 99% of the time and proudly show it off to guests every now and then. For shame, Mark. It the oil from fingerprints would permanently smudge it! To keep it really, really mint you have to keep it in box ~always~. That way you can sell it on eBay for top dollar. To play it safe, buy two, one for showing off (to be taken from the air-tight showcase only rarely, and then only by the owner wearing cotton gloves), and one kept completely sealed in it's original box. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
On Jun 12, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: frank theriault wrote: Geez, I've got a first-generation Pentax digital body that does a lot better than his in virtually every problem that he mentions... Yep, the usability issues sound pretty terrible. The remove the bottom plate to swap memory cards thing is inexcusable. It sounds like they made the camera for the cardiologist/camera-collector crowd who'll keep it on the shelf 99% of the time and proudly show it off to guests every now and then. Of the 20 or so people I know who've bought an M8, 14 are professional photographers who use it in the course of their work. They seem quite happy with it now that some of the initial release problems have been corrected in a firmware update, and find it no more inconvenient than a Leica M6TTL was to load film into (had to remove the baseplate on that one too, if you weren't aware, and certainly less intrusive than Frank's Leica CL which requires you drop the entire back off, flip the pressure plate down, load film, flip pressure plate up, re-fit back). One of them posted to the Leica forum that they've turned over 26,000 exposures with the M8 so far. None of them are combat photojournalists, of course. And they use other equipment (Nikon, Olympus and Canon TotL DSLRs, usually) when their work requires a different kind of camera. Again, I'll reserve judgement on the M8's performance until I get a chance to use one myself. I don't trust this photojourno's judgement on it. The work I've seen from Tina Manley, Tom Abrahamson and a couple others who are using it certainly demonstrates that it is a quite capable performer. You might ask Juan Buhler what he thinks of the M8 ... ]'-) Godfrey ... yes, I wish I could afford one ... not that wealthy just for the moment. :-\ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
I'm kinda surprised that this combat photojournalist would consider an M8 as appropriate to his field work after using a loaner. I could tell immediately from fooling with it at the store that it fits in the class of use that the K10D and L1 fit in, not the kind of bash around rugged piece that the E-1/E-3, Canon 1D II, or Nikon D3 were designed to be. Godfrey The author ///wanted/// the M8 to be the right camera for the task because it's predecessors were classic combat cameras whose profiles defined the breed. So he forgave it many faults before finally damning it. And still, he and his professional colleagues await the professional axe that the M8 should be, but clearly isn't. He needs a discreet tough camera with good manners in the field. He doesn't want the OlyNikCanSon concept of TotL (nice acronym) where getting toughness also means getting a dangerously conspicuous and overfeatured (for his needs) behemoth of a camera. TotL for Leica once was synonymous with togh and discreet, but how discreet is a camera that will light up its rear LCD in the middle of a perilous night patrol, just because it got jostled? So he needs to tape up the controls to prevent them getting altered by jostling? That's nothing new, wedding guys have long taped shutter dials onto the x-synch value for their camera, or filled M-synch sockets with epoxy cement to prevent them being selected. An old boss once warned me that, in days past, press photographers would routinely fiddle with the camera settings of their rival newspapers' photographers. Some teachers at my old photography school would twist dials and turn knobs on any studio setup they saw unattended. It was a hard lesson to return from loading film to find your work undone, worse still if it went undiscovered until the film came out of the fixer a half hour later. So it became routine to protect your gear and frequently check its settings. This guy has forgotten how to check settings. OTOH I got the impression that this guy leans too heavily on technology. So he needs to set up the white balance and not use auto WB universally. Annoying but not really deal-breaking. So he finds the auto exposure erratic. IMO that's a legacy of the Leica's design, as it doesn't have a reflex focusing screen to aim its meter cells onto, neither does it get its exposure values from a live CCD display as DSLR-like bridge cameras do. This photographer should understand that and get over it, then modify his style to accommodate it, if he wants to use autoexposure that is. Or he can just work as sports and news traditionally did, precalculate his exposure, and precalculate any ad hoc variations like the shady end of the street gets +2 stops, or the pool of light outside that window gets -3 stops. Or he can go back to his Canon and quit whinging until Leica either goes bust or delivers the camera he wants. Regards, Anthony Farr -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Anthony Farr wrote: This guy has forgotten how to check settings. The cad! Surely those nice insurgents would be willing to hold their fire whilst he does so? This guy is a long time, award winning photojournalist who knows what he's doing more than most of us can ever hope to. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Mark Roberts wrote: The cad! Surely those nice insurgents would be willing to hold their fire whilst he does so? This guy is a long time, award winning photojournalist who knows what he's doing more than most of us can ever hope to. In the good / bad old days of film: You checked that there was film in the camera. You checked that the film was the correct type. You checked that the film was winding correctly. You checked that there were charged batteries in the camera. You determined the exposure. You checked that the shutterspeed was correctly set. You checked that the aperture was correctly set. You checked that the flash synchronisation was correctly set, if applicable. In the digital era: You checked that there was a memory card in the camera. You checked that there were charged batteries in the camera. You checked that the white balance was correct. Or use auto. You set the sensitivity and other image parameters, or set them to defaults. You determined the exposure. Or use auto. You checked that the shutterspeed was correctly set. Or use auto. You checked that the aperture was correctly set. Or use auto. You checked that the flash synchronisation was correctly set, if applicable. Or use auto. I'm sure there's more, according to your needs / style. It's not so different, photographers used to always run the first checklist whether or not there were bullets flying, and neglected that list at the peril of failure. The second list isn't any longer, and if the equipment permits (that is if its auto settings are dependable and consistent)the list can be shorter still. And yet I still hear photographers whining if they have to do or think of some technical aspect of photography. If you're a hobbyist in it for pleasure, fair enough. If you are a professional, learn yer job and remember that you've never had it so good. I'm not talking about you of course, Mark, because I don't recall you ever bitching and moaning about the onerous burden of using a modern camera. Regards, Anthony Farr -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
- Original Message - From: Anthony Farr Subject: RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test I'm not talking about you of course, Mark, because I don't recall you ever bitching and moaning about the onerous burden of using a modern camera. The guy isn't bitching about using a modern camera, he is bitching that his modern Leica is fundamentally useless in any of the parameters that a photographer uses to determine usability, and doesn't perform as well as cameras five or more years old. The camera needs to be disassembled to check if there is a memory card in it. Neither auto nor maual white balance seems reliable for giving consistent white balance. The camera is useless to him (and honestly to most anyone else) because the images at ISO's above 640 were too noisy. Auto exposure was unreliable. Furthermore, an *istD outperforms it's buffer size and write speeds. In November 2006, I wrote about the M8 They (Leica) just bought themselves a coffin and a gun. Bye-Bye Leica. It appears that in a year and a half, they haven't corrected any of the problems with the camera. That is absolutely unacceptable for a 10K piece of equipment. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Christine Aguila wrote: Bruce: Thanks so much for posting this. It was an excellent read. I learned tons from it! Cheers, Christine Glad you enjoyed it, Christine! BTW: I saw the pointer to that article on the always interesting Daring Fireball blog http://daringfireball.net/. Perhaps to balance things out, DF's Gruber later on referenced this alternative take on the M8 by a photojournalist who toured with it in Iran ... http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0709/camera-corner-the-leica-m8-on-assignment.html -bmw -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
No argument from me about those points, William. The Leica seems ill-conceived for its traditional purpose. As others have said, the new purpose of a Leica is as bling, or investment on the collectors market. A camera's prestige value should flow downwards from the pointy end of professional usage, but Leica apparently seeks to redefine prestige as flowing upwards from the lowest common denominator of how much cash can we screw out of our wealthy clientele who don't know shit from clay. When Godfrey points out that many pro-photographers are successfully using M8s, I am reminded that many pro-photographers could produce art from a Diana. That's no great defense for the Leica, it's praise for those photographers. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Friday, 13 June 2008 11:29 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test - Original Message - From: Anthony Farr Subject: RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test I'm not talking about you of course, Mark, because I don't recall you ever bitching and moaning about the onerous burden of using a modern camera. The guy isn't bitching about using a modern camera, he is bitching that his modern Leica is fundamentally useless in any of the parameters that a photographer uses to determine usability, and doesn't perform as well as cameras five or more years old. The camera needs to be disassembled to check if there is a memory card in it. Neither auto nor maual white balance seems reliable for giving consistent white balance. The camera is useless to him (and honestly to most anyone else) because the images at ISO's above 640 were too noisy. Auto exposure was unreliable. Furthermore, an *istD outperforms it's buffer size and write speeds. In November 2006, I wrote about the M8 They (Leica) just bought themselves a coffin and a gun. Bye-Bye Leica. It appears that in a year and a half, they haven't corrected any of the problems with the camera. That is absolutely unacceptable for a 10K piece of equipment. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
A lot of the pro photographers I know own a Leica M8. Very few use it. Paul -- Original message -- From: Anthony Farr [EMAIL PROTECTED] No argument from me about those points, William. The Leica seems ill-conceived for its traditional purpose. As others have said, the new purpose of a Leica is as bling, or investment on the collectors market. A camera's prestige value should flow downwards from the pointy end of professional usage, but Leica apparently seeks to redefine prestige as flowing upwards from the lowest common denominator of how much cash can we screw out of our wealthy clientele who don't know shit from clay. When Godfrey points out that many pro-photographers are successfully using M8s, I am reminded that many pro-photographers could produce art from a Diana. That's no great defense for the Leica, it's praise for those photographers. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Friday, 13 June 2008 11:29 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test - Original Message - From: Anthony Farr Subject: RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test I'm not talking about you of course, Mark, because I don't recall you ever bitching and moaning about the onerous burden of using a modern camera. The guy isn't bitching about using a modern camera, he is bitching that his modern Leica is fundamentally useless in any of the parameters that a photographer uses to determine usability, and doesn't perform as well as cameras five or more years old. The camera needs to be disassembled to check if there is a memory card in it. Neither auto nor maual white balance seems reliable for giving consistent white balance. The camera is useless to him (and honestly to most anyone else) because the images at ISO's above 640 were too noisy. Auto exposure was unreliable. Furthermore, an *istD outperforms it's buffer size and write speeds. In November 2006, I wrote about the M8 They (Leica) just bought themselves a coffin and a gun. Bye-Bye Leica. It appears that in a year and a half, they haven't corrected any of the problems with the camera. That is absolutely unacceptable for a 10K piece of equipment. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test
Ok then. Have it your way, believe whatever it is you want to believe, whether right or wrong. Carry on bitching about something you know little about, that few if any of you have even touched never mind experienced for yourself. I'm done with this thread. Another grand waste of time. Godfrey PS: Tina Manley took her M8 to India recently and brought back delightful photos made with it. She's brought it to South America, Central America, and other places as well. She also has a Canon DSLR kit (5D, I think) and finds the M8 produces better photographs. http://www.tinamanley.com On Jun 12, 2008, at 7:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A lot of the pro photographers I know own a Leica M8. Very few use it. Paul -- Original message -- From: Anthony Farr [EMAIL PROTECTED] No argument from me about those points, William. The Leica seems ill-conceived for its traditional purpose. As others have said, the new purpose of a Leica is as bling, or investment on the collectors market. A camera's prestige value should flow downwards from the pointy end of professional usage, but Leica apparently seeks to redefine prestige as flowing upwards from the lowest common denominator of how much cash can we screw out of our wealthy clientele who don't know shit from clay. When Godfrey points out that many pro-photographers are successfully using M8s, I am reminded that many pro-photographers could produce art from a Diana. That's no great defense for the Leica, it's praise for those photographers. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Friday, 13 June 2008 11:29 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test - Original Message - From: Anthony Farr Subject: RE: [OT] Leica M8 Field Test I'm not talking about you of course, Mark, because I don't recall you ever bitching and moaning about the onerous burden of using a modern camera. The guy isn't bitching about using a modern camera, he is bitching that his modern Leica is fundamentally useless in any of the parameters that a photographer uses to determine usability, and doesn't perform as well as cameras five or more years old. The camera needs to be disassembled to check if there is a memory card in it. Neither auto nor maual white balance seems reliable for giving consistent white balance. The camera is useless to him (and honestly to most anyone else) because the images at ISO's above 640 were too noisy. Auto exposure was unreliable. Furthermore, an *istD outperforms it's buffer size and write speeds. In November 2006, I wrote about the M8 They (Leica) just bought themselves a coffin and a gun. Bye-Bye Leica. It appears that in a year and a half, they haven't corrected any of the problems with the camera. That is absolutely unacceptable for a 10K piece of equipment. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
