Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
I haven't looked at it's code myself but you get the idea. The same reasoning applies to many projects that people complain about not being updated. For that matter what is the deal about not having python2 on Debian bullseye? I see instructions all over the Internet for installing it. Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Russell Senior Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 6:47 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?) Moinmoin isn't a binary, fwiw. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 17:31 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble > >to > find > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a > reasonable set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of > things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to > build Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public > source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted > > -Original Message- > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Heinlein > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks > MediaWiki - why?) > > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: > > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x > > is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty > > much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that > > the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, > > has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the > > last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. > > > > > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZ > > RB > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELy > > VT > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy > > 6c > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4 > > xn > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV > > 8B ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D > > > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal > > Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried > > to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief > > outage while I figured out what had gone wrong. > > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends > on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, > libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level > packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply > doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem. > > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to > find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a > reasonable set of parameters). > > I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy > I wouldn't have a job. > > -- > Paul Heinlein > heinl...@madboa.com > 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W > >
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
GTK2 abandonment caused problems for a number of small projects but you can still in general find libs for gtk2 on most of the larger distros. $5k for "fixing" moinmoin is pretty fair I'd say. Version 2 is, after all, installable and runs. The maintainer says it's "unstable" but I have to wonder if that's really true. Sometimes that language is code for "it works but I don't want to spend time answering your RTFM questions and the community isn't large enough yet to do it" Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Ben Koenig Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 11:15 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?) I wonder why WINE, FFMPEG, the Linux Kernel, all mainstream distros... - KDE - GNOME - XFCE - QT - GTK and many other projects DO NOT have this problem, despite all of them being infinitely more complex than a collection of python scripts. The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to the maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases get more love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how many big projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has bothered to fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. FWIW... $5000 for a 2to3 conversion of moinmoin is a fucking insult to the developer who ends up doing all the work. But if Debian needs a modern system to run their moinmoin wiki I'd be happy to set them up with a Slackware 15.0 installation with python2.7. -Ben --- Original Message --- On Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble > > to find > > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a > reasonable > > set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to > build Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public > source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted >
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
Per https://moinmo.in/MoinMoin2/InstallDebian and https://github.com/moinwiki/moin version 2.0+ it is "unstable, for production please use 1.9.x." Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Russell Senior Sent: Tuesday, August 1, 2023 1:06 AM To: plug@pdxlinux.org Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?) On 7/31/23 23:15, Ben Koenig wrote: > The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to the > maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases get more > love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how many big > projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has bothered to > fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. The wikipedia entry says "a steamed or boiled bean pudding". I think what actually happened is that v1.x achieved a kind of stability and it basically didn't change for a decade and the people who knew how it worked kind of wandered away. It was only the abandonment of python2 that has led to the "crisis". There has been a slow moving effort to build a v2 of MoinMoin, but it's reportedly not ready for production, or wasn't when I looked last (again, about a year ago). -- Russell Senior russ...@pdxlinux.org
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
--- Original Message --- On Tuesday, August 1st, 2023 at 1:06 AM, Russell Senior wrote: > > On 7/31/23 23:15, Ben Koenig wrote: > > > The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to > > the maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases > > get more love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how > > many big projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has > > bothered to fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. > > The wikipedia entry says "a steamed or boiled bean pudding". > > I think what actually happened is that v1.x achieved a kind of stability > and it basically didn't change for a decade and the people who knew how > it worked kind of wandered away. It was only the abandonment of python2 > that has led to the "crisis". There has been a slow moving effort to > build a v2 of MoinMoin, but it's reportedly not ready for production, or > wasn't when I looked last (again, about a year ago). > > > -- > Russell Senior > russ...@pdxlinux.org Probably. python2.7 isn't exactly broken or bad, just unmaintained. There are a lot of projects that just don't see a benefit from moving to python3. A lot of internet keyboard warriors like to act like you just need a project manager and some financial incentive to make the change, but no that's just not how it works. Even I've soured on python because of this. By the time I get used to the way things work, stuff changes and my code breaks. -Ben
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
On 7/31/23 23:15, Ben Koenig wrote: The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to the maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases get more love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how many big projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has bothered to fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. The wikipedia entry says "a steamed or boiled bean pudding". I think what actually happened is that v1.x achieved a kind of stability and it basically didn't change for a decade and the people who knew how it worked kind of wandered away. It was only the abandonment of python2 that has led to the "crisis". There has been a slow moving effort to build a v2 of MoinMoin, but it's reportedly not ready for production, or wasn't when I looked last (again, about a year ago). -- Russell Senior russ...@pdxlinux.org
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
I wonder why WINE, FFMPEG, the Linux Kernel, all mainstream distros... - KDE - GNOME - XFCE - QT - GTK and many other projects DO NOT have this problem, despite all of them being infinitely more complex than a collection of python scripts. The longterm success and/or failure of any software project comes down to the maintainability of the codebase. Projects with good, clean codebases get more love because the cost of contributing is much lower. Given how many big projects use moinmoin I think it's safe to say that nobody has bothered to fix it because it's a hot fucking mess. FWIW... $5000 for a 2to3 conversion of moinmoin is a fucking insult to the developer who ends up doing all the work. But if Debian needs a modern system to run their moinmoin wiki I'd be happy to set them up with a Slackware 15.0 installation with python2.7. -Ben --- Original Message --- On Monday, July 31st, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find > > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a reasonable > > set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time simply > paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these projects that > they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead end, that they would > have updated projects that work for a tenth of the price that Micro$oft > wants them to pay for windows versions of things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded to > Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to build > Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and produces a > functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted >
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
Moinmoin isn't a binary, fwiw. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023, 17:31 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to > find > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a > reasonable > set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time simply > paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these projects that > they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead end, that they > would > have updated projects that work for a tenth of the price that Micro$oft > wants them to pay for windows versions of things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded to > Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to build > Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and produces a > functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted > > -Original Message- > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul Heinlein > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks > MediaWiki - why?) > > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: > > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is > > based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much > > abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the > > wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to > > run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last > > version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. > > > > > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZRB > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELyVT > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy6c > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4xn > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV8B > > ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D > > > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's > > wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update > > to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while > > I figured out what had gone wrong. > > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends on > dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, libraries, and > even utilities. One or more of those lower-level packages gets deprecated, > drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply doesn't keep up with the rest > of > the dependency ecosystem. > > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find > and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a reasonable > set of parameters). > > I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy I > wouldn't have a job. > > -- > Paul Heinlein > heinl...@madboa.com > 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W > >
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
Perhaps a kickstarter campaign for the project? On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:38 PM John Sechrest < sechr...@seattleangelconference.com> wrote: > Yep , just need someone to manage the project to closure. > > > > On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:37 PM Ted Mittelstaedt > wrote: > >> $5k dropped on some overseas programming group in India will get you a >> whole lotta translating! >> >> Ted >> >> -Original Message- >> From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of John Sechrest >> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:34 PM >> To: Portland Linux/Unix Group >> Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks >> MediaWiki - why?) >> >> I wonder how far you would get by asking Bard or chatgpt or one of the >> other AI things to translate Python 2 to current python >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:31 PM Ted Mittelstaedt >> wrote: >> >> > >> > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and >> > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble >> > >to >> > find >> > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a >> > reasonable set of parameters). >> > >> > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time >> > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these >> > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead >> > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of >> > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of >> > things. >> > >> > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use >> > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded >> > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to >> > build Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and >> > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the >> public source" >> > >> > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at >> > fixing it themselves? >> > >> > Ted >> > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul >> > Heinlein >> > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM >> > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group >> > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks >> > MediaWiki - why?) >> > >> > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: >> > >> > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x >> > > is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty >> > > much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that >> > > the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, >> > > has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the >> > > last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. >> > > >> > > >> > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZ >> > > RB >> > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELy >> > > VT >> > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy >> > > 6c >> > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4 >> > > xn >> > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV >> > > 8B ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D >> > > >> > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal >> > > Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried >> > > to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief >> > > outage while I figured out what had gone wrong. >> > >> > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends >> > on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, >> > libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level >> > packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply >> > doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem. >> > >> > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and >> > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to >> > find and implement a s
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
Yep , just need someone to manage the project to closure. On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:37 PM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > $5k dropped on some overseas programming group in India will get you a > whole lotta translating! > > Ted > > -Original Message- > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of John Sechrest > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:34 PM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks > MediaWiki - why?) > > I wonder how far you would get by asking Bard or chatgpt or one of the > other AI things to translate Python 2 to current python > > > On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:31 PM Ted Mittelstaedt > wrote: > > > > > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble > > >to > > find > > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a > > reasonable set of parameters). > > > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time > > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these > > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead > > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of > > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of > > things. > > > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded > > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to > > build Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and > > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the > public source" > > > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > > fixing it themselves? > > > > Ted > > > > -Original Message- > > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul > > Heinlein > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM > > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks > > MediaWiki - why?) > > > > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: > > > > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x > > > is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty > > > much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that > > > the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, > > > has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the > > > last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. > > > > > > > > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZ > > > RB > > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELy > > > VT > > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy > > > 6c > > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4 > > > xn > > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV > > > 8B ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D > > > > > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal > > > Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried > > > to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief > > > outage while I figured out what had gone wrong. > > > > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends > > on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, > > libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level > > packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply > > doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem. > > > > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to > > find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a > > reasonable set of parameters). > > > > I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy > > I wouldn't have a job. > > > > -- > > Paul Heinlein > > heinl...@madboa.com > > 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W > > > > > > -- > -- > [image: www.seattleangelconference.com] > <http://www.seattleangelconference.com/> > > *JOHN SECHREST* > *Founder, *Seattle An
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
$5k dropped on some overseas programming group in India will get you a whole lotta translating! Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of John Sechrest Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 5:34 PM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?) I wonder how far you would get by asking Bard or chatgpt or one of the other AI things to translate Python 2 to current python On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:31 PM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble > >to > find > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a > reasonable set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time > simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these > projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead > end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of > the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of > things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded > to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to > build Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and > produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public > source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted > > -Original Message- > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Heinlein > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks > MediaWiki - why?) > > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: > > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x > > is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty > > much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that > > the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, > > has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the > > last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. > > > > > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZ > > RB > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELy > > VT > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy > > 6c > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4 > > xn > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV > > 8B ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D > > > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal > > Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried > > to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief > > outage while I figured out what had gone wrong. > > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends > on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, > libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level > packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply > doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem. > > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to > find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a > reasonable set of parameters). > > I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy > I wouldn't have a job. > > -- > Paul Heinlein > heinl...@madboa.com > 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W > > -- -- [image: www.seattleangelconference.com] <http://www.seattleangelconference.com/> *JOHN SECHREST* *Founder, *Seattle Angel Conference TEL (541) 250-0844EMAIL sechr...@seattleangel.com Schedule A Meeting <http://sechrest.youcanbookme.com/> http://seattleangelconference.com @nwangelconf An Investor driven event bringing together new investors and new entrepreneurs to expand the startup ecosystem.
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
I wonder how far you would get by asking Bard or chatgpt or one of the other AI things to translate Python 2 to current python On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 5:31 PM Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to > find > and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a > reasonable > set of parameters). > > I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time simply > paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these projects that > they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead end, that they > would > have updated projects that work for a tenth of the price that Micro$oft > wants them to pay for windows versions of things. > > How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use > Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded to > Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to build > Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and produces a > functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public source" > > OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at > fixing it themselves? > > Ted > > -Original Message- > From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul Heinlein > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM > To: Portland Linux/Unix Group > Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks > MediaWiki - why?) > > On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: > > > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is > > based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much > > abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the > > wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to > > run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last > > version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. > > > > > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZRB > > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELyVT > > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy6c > > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4xn > > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV8B > > ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D > > > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's > > wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update > > to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while > > I figured out what had gone wrong. > > This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends on > dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, libraries, and > even utilities. One or more of those lower-level packages gets deprecated, > drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply doesn't keep up with the rest > of > the dependency ecosystem. > > Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and > (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find > and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a reasonable > set of parameters). > > I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy I > wouldn't have a job. > > -- > Paul Heinlein > heinl...@madboa.com > 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W > > -- -- [image: www.seattleangelconference.com] <http://www.seattleangelconference.com/> *JOHN SECHREST* *Founder, *Seattle Angel Conference TEL (541) 250-0844EMAIL sechr...@seattleangel.com Schedule A Meeting <http://sechrest.youcanbookme.com/> http://seattleangelconference.com @nwangelconf An Investor driven event bringing together new investors and new entrepreneurs to expand the startup ecosystem.
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
> a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and >(probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find and implement a solution (that may no >longer exist within even a reasonable set of parameters). I feel compelled to point out that if people spent half the time simply paying a software programmer to upgrade the codebase of these projects that they spend complaining about the projects becoming dead end, that they would have updated projects that work for a tenth of the price that Micro$oft wants them to pay for windows versions of things. How many hundreds if not thousands of wikis on the Internet that use Moinmoin have ever just considered posting a message "We just upgraded to Debian Bullseye and we get 10 compiler errors when attempting to build Moinmoin on it. $5000 to the first person who fixes that and produces a functioning binary, and feeds the changes back into the public source" OR, how many of them have picked up a compiler and tried their hand at fixing it themselves? Ted -Original Message- From: PLUG [mailto:plug-boun...@pdxlinux.org] On Behalf Of Paul Heinlein Sent: Monday, July 31, 2023 8:38 AM To: Portland Linux/Unix Group Subject: Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?) On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: > A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is > based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much > abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the > wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to > run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last > version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. > > > https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZRB > wGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELyVT > 2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy6c > RPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4xn > UhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV8B > ZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D > > I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's > wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update > to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while > I figured out what had gone wrong. This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem. Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a reasonable set of parameters). I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy I wouldn't have a job. -- Paul Heinlein heinl...@madboa.com 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W
Re: [PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, Russell Senior wrote: A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. https://u35970666.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=TqJK0v-2BTL1dmkjS-2FZRBwGRDG4t3PuCk88LFqqcTvyYGDJGeFNIjwU8pGkcA3tIrkXxPogHNGRue04tX0s41yELyVT2kQTzNKeJ1a3JRIU5c-3DkyL0_VIYZ4N8dmyIPGy7Y8nsPO1q5dom4O0HMDO1WKXG4iy6cRPYqUFHozao-2Fpbo-2BoZqOchXuKORABSzW180gWYBHeRPNrdK7edxBEXDVaeFmkWm4xnUhizY9EOtln7Mj8LEiArb78-2BbHAD0AsaSTK9AWj1JB0cOk7hkn-2BvgslB0tXdYqMV8BZkiZeBlgfBwozTDycTSoXvNA4kNrtVykLP6PwQ-3D-3D I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while I figured out what had gone wrong. This is a sadly familiar story. A high-level software package depends on dozens, perhaps hundreds, of lower-level language runtimes, libraries, and even utilities. One or more of those lower-level packages gets deprecated, drops features, becomes orphaned, or simply doesn't keep up with the rest of the dependency ecosystem. Voila -- a dead-end solution with a future of pain, fragility, and (probably) unpatched security vulnerabilities while people scramble to find and implement a solution (that may no longer exist within even a reasonable set of parameters). I feel vaguely guilty every time I say it, but if computers were easy I wouldn't have a job. -- Paul Heinlein heinl...@madboa.com 45°22'48" N, 122°35'36" W
[PLUG] wikis breaking on updates (was: Re: Upgrage Breaks MediaWiki - why?)
A slightly related story: Debian's wiki is moinmoin. Moinmoin v1.x is based on python 2. Python2 is (of course) deprecated and pretty much abandoned as of Debian Bullseye. It seems somewhat ironic that the wiki that proudly announces Debian 12 (bookworm) as of July 22, has to run Debian 10 (buster, i.e. oldoldstable) because that's the last version that supports python2 enough to run the wiki. https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=python-moinmoin I have a particularly acute awareness of this because Personal Telco's wiki also uses moinmoin, and it stopped working when I tried to update to Debian 11 (bullseye) about a year ago. We had a brief outage while I figured out what had gone wrong. -- Russell Senior russ...@personaltelco.net On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 12:17 PM Ben Koenig wrote: > > --- Original Message --- > On Sunday, July 30th, 2023 at 11:31 AM, Michael Rasmussen > wrote: > > > > Short Story: > > Running MediaWiki, a php based app > > Upgraded my Archlinux host with `pacman -Syu` > > MediaWiki Breaks with this error: > > > > Installing some PHP extensions is required. > > Required components > > You are missing a required extension to PHP that MediaWiki requires to > > run. Please install: > > intl (more information) > > > > Long Story: > > intl has been required since v1.36 - several versions back that I have > > used all along > > > > I checked php.ini to verify that it had not be chanced in the process. I > > found: > > > > extension=intl.so > > [intl] > > ;intl.default_locale = > > ; happens within intl functions. The value is the level of the error > > produced. > > intl.error_level = E_WARNING > > intl.use_exceptions = 0 > > > > So that is in place and functional. > > > > Do you have any idea about what to check? Arch normally reliable source > > of help has come up dry thus far. > > > > -- > > > > Michael Rasmussen > > Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity > > I'd check the release notes and migration log for the new version of > mediawiki. It sounds like there was a change to the dependencies and it might > not be happy with the version you have installed. > > You can also verify that this module is for the same version of PHP as your > mediawiki installation. > -Ben
