RE: Latin scholars
I think the spelling is a bit mangled here, possibly "Praeterunt" is meant. It means 'to become past' (as opposed to 'present' or 'future') Compare: Tempus Praeteritum = Past Tense. Pereunt is also 'to pass', but more in the sense of 'to vanish away"; "to perish". Perhaps this could explain it. Rudolf Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens Douglas BatemanVerzonden: woensdag 11 mei 2005 20:43Aan: Sundial ListOnderwerp: Latin scholars Assistance please. I have a motto in Latin that appears to have different translations. Which is correct?The motto is on a pair of vertical dials and Mrs Gatty (4th edition 1900) gives the following Prútereunt: They pass by Imputantur: They are reckonedHowever, our respected editor, Dr Margaret Stanier gives the same(?) motto as Pereunt et Imputantur as (The hours) pass away and are set down to (our) chargeMargaret, in her small book on Oxford Sundials, shows this motto on the dial at All Souls' College and says that it is a quote from Martial's Epigrammata.The mottos don't look the same, but given the scope for mis-copying, are they supposed to be the identical?Comments please, Doug
RE: Latin scholars
x-charset windows-1256I think there are two very similar but slightly different mottos here using similar but distinct verbs Praetereo - go by, pass by (ae not oe I think) Pereo - perish, pass away, vanish The meaning is essentially the same - they [the hours] pass and are reckoned Perhaps a Latinist can comment on the relation between the two words? Also Eheu fugaces, labuntur anni - (labuntur not labantur I think) - derives from Horace, Odes 2 14, meaning something like Alas, the fleeting years slip away though in the original the proper name of the friend to whom it is addressed occurs twice in the middle of it (Postume, O Postumus). Another sundial connection: from Boswell's Life of Johnson: An instance at once of his pensive turn of mind, and his cheerfulness of temper, appeared in a little story which he himself told to Mr Langton, when they were walking in his garden: 'Here (said he,) I had put a handsome sun-dial, with this inscription, Eheu fugaces! which (speaking with a smile) was sadly verified, for by the next morning my dial had been carried off.' Andrew James -Original Message- From: Douglas Bateman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 May 2005 19:43 To: Sundial List Subject: Latin scholars Assistance please. I have a motto in Latin that appears to have different translations. Which is correct? The motto is on a pair of vertical dials and Mrs Gatty (4th edition 1900) gives the following Prْtereunt: They pass by Imputantur: They are reckoned However, our respected editor, Dr Margaret Stanier gives the same(?) motto as Pereunt et Imputantur as (The hours) pass away and are set down to (our) charge Margaret, in her small book on Oxford Sundials, shows this motto on the dial at All Souls' College and says that it is a quote from Martial's Epigrammata. The mottos don't look the same, but given the scope for mis-copying, are they supposed to be the identical? Comments please, Doug PRI Limited, PRI House, Moorside Road Winchester, Hampshire SO23 7RX United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0) 1962 840048 Fax: +44 (0) 1962 841046 www.pri.co.uk The Intelligent Metering Company This correspondence is confidential and is solely for the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it. If you are not the intended recipient please delete this correspondence from your system and notify the sender immediately. This message has been scanned for viruses by MailControl - /x-charset
Latin scholars
x-richAssistance please. I have a motto in Latin that appears to have different translations. Which is correct? The motto is on a pair of vertical dials and Mrs Gatty (4th edition 1900) gives the following fontfamilyparamTimes/parambiggerx-tad-bigger Pr¦tereunt: /x-tad-biggeritalicx-tad-biggerThey pass by/x-tad-bigger/italicx-tad-bigger Imputantur: /x-tad-biggeritalicx-tad-biggerThey are reckoned /x-tad-bigger/italicx-tad-biggerHowever, our respected editor, Dr Margaret Stanier gives the same(?) motto as Pereunt et Imputantur as /x-tad-biggeritalicx-tad-bigger(The hours) pass away and are set down to (our) charge/x-tad-bigger/italicx-tad-bigger Margaret, in her small book on Oxford Sundials, shows this motto on the dial at All Souls' College and says that it is a quote from Martial's Epigrammata. The mottos don't look the same, but given the scope for mis-copying, are they supposed to be the identical? Comments please, Doug/x-tad-bigger/bigger/fontfamily /x-rich
Re: Latin scholars
Incidentally I was always under the impression that Pereunt et Imputantur meant They (the hours) pass by and are reckoned. In my opinion they both mean the same. One must see what the prefix Proet- meant in grammatical terms. Regards Alexei Malta At 20:43 11/05/2005, Douglas Bateman wrote: Assistance please. I have a motto in Latin that appears to have different translations. Which is correct? The motto is on a pair of vertical dials and Mrs Gatty (4th edition 1900) gives the following Prtereunt: They pass by Imputantur: They are reckoned However, our respected editor, Dr Margaret Stanier gives the same(?) motto as Pereunt et Imputantur as (The hours) pass away and are set down to (our) charge Margaret, in her small book on Oxford Sundials, shows this motto on the dial at All Souls' College and says that it is a quote from Martial's Epigrammata. The mottos don't look the same, but given the scope for mis-copying, are they supposed to be the identical? Comments please, Doug br /blockquote/x-html
Latin scholars
The works of Martial have been the source of more than one UK motto on dials. One particularly difficult one (on SRN 0153 at Over Peover, Cheshire) is Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua [Don't criticise the time I give you but publish your own]. It is a quote from Martial, Epigram 1.91 line 2. Epigram 1.91 reads in full :Cum tua non edas, carpis mea carmina, Laeli. Carpere uel noli nostra uel ede tua.] The Latin in these works makes a lot of use of colloquial understanding and literal translation can be almost meaningless without a knowledge of its use at the time.. In this case after appealing to the Internet without success the dial recorder was amazed to find that his wife's father (or other relative, I now cannot remember) had been a world Martial expert at a Canadian University during his career there and had retired to Cambridge and was then aged 80+. It was he who when approached knew the quote, could quote the epigram to a considerable degree and translated it for us. I fear he is may be no longer alive but the recorder was Jack Bromiley and so with this one you might write to him to see... You can find the actual quotes from Martial at: http://www.intratext.com/Catalogo/Autori/Aut249.HTM Sadly these are not translated but they do allow you (laboriously!) to find the original text. Regards Patrick -
