Re: [biofuels-biz] Chem Supplies
Eric, why not try a hardware shop or a supermarket. You should be able to buy caustic soda or Lye straight off the shelf. It is commonly used as a paint stripper or a drain cleaner. Hope this helps Regards Steven Eric Ruttan wrote: I am unable to secure NaOH or H2SO4 for a test batch of BD. I am to demo this for some highschoolers on monday and i have procrastanated, aparantly too long. It seems Since 911 no more shipping to people. Love living in the land of the free. I live in the michigan Detroit area. If anyone can help, Please let me know? Eric _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel
Basically, the reason for excluding water from diesel fuel - aside from its devastating effect in cold climates - is to prevent corrosion of the injection system. A water mist is helpful in moderating combustion and boosting output under come circumstances, but it, too, must be used with caution to prevent corrosion of the upper cylinder. Basically, you start then engine dry and start the mist only when it is fully warmed up. You stop the mist before stopping the engine, giving time for any condensed water in the intake manifold to vaporize and go through the engine. Marc de Piolenc -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel
Since rapeseed oil was used to lubricate steam engines, because of its properties of clinging to cylinder walls and resisting being washed off by steam... The crop has undergone a great metamorphosis in quality and production since it was first grown as an emergency war measure on a few acres in 1942. At that time, rapeseed oil was considered an essential lubricant because it could cling to water- and steam-washed metal surfaces better than any other oil. Since the naval ships and trains of the time were steam-powered, and with the European and Asian rape oil supplies cut off, Canada was asked to undertake production. http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1990/v1-211.html and since we have evidence of how incredibly lubricating it is, In the case of biodiesel oil made from canola, the University of Saskatchewan has shown that a 1% addition to petroleum diesel fuel would help reduce engine wear by 40% http://www.agr.gc.ca/misb/spcrops/framework_e.phtml#3.2.1 I wonder if the potential for water corrosion is reduced by the presence of that oil, versus the fossil diesel. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/9/02 4:33 AM, F. Marc de Piolenc at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically, the reason for excluding water from diesel fuel - aside from its devastating effect in cold climates - is to prevent corrosion of the injection system. A water mist is helpful in moderating combustion and boosting output under come circumstances, but it, too, must be used with caution to prevent corrosion of the upper cylinder. Basically, you start then engine dry and start the mist only when it is fully warmed up. You stop the mist before stopping the engine, giving time for any condensed water in the intake manifold to vaporize and go through the engine. Marc de Piolenc Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant
I came back today and noticed your posting on biofuel site about the result of the application to DOE. It is too bad the application was rejected. My discussions with others after the application was submitted kind of hinted me of the outcome. If you have the confident that this project can be pulled even if there is no Government help, then let me know. It all boils down to production cost and the selling price in the market. -Chandra - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:50 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant I got a reply from the US DOE yesterday saying they found no merit in my preliminary grant application. I'm a little disappointed, but thought there might still be something of value here. If you have the time, let me know what you think Tom Leue Homestead Inc. Biomass Research and Development for the Production of Fuels, Power, Chemicals and other Economical and Sustainable Products Solicitation 1435-01-02-RP-86382 Pre-Application Submitted 5/14/02 Submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proposal for a Biodiesel Development Center Submitted by: Thomas S. Leue, President, Homestead Inc. 1664 Cape St., Williamsburg, MA 01096 413 628-4533, Fax 413 628-3973 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Introduction Biodiesel fuel has been shown to be a superior diesel fuel in terms of environmental impact, balance of trade, global warming, toxicity, emissions, engine longevity, etc. However, it has not been generally available to the public due to the limited number of producers and their geographic locations. Biodiesel fuel has a potential to supply approximately 6.6% of national diesel fuel needs, according to the National Biodiesel Board (NBB). To date, the NBB has concentrated on production of biodiesel made from virgin soybean oil, and all testing has been limited to that product. This proposal will lead to the development of an urban biodiesel production facility in Albany, New York that will demonstrate the commercial potential of a fuel production business based on locally available yellow grease and other vegetable oil sources, along with providing the educational resources needed for others to duplicate this facility model in many other urban areas throughout the US. Technical Narrative The production of biodiesel has been developed using numerous technologies over the past twenty years or longer. The technical know how is largely in the public domain, but has not led to widespread production throughout the US. For instance, this researcher maintains the only commercial scale production facility within a 500 mile radius, located in Western Massachusetts. The biodiesel biorefinery operated by Homestead Inc. is a pilot scale, batch type production facility. Although each batch produced is small, currently 20 gallons net per batch and soon to go to 100 gallons net per batch, the large number of batches produced, over 300 to date, has developed an in-depth understanding of the collection and processing systems needed and the variability inherent in processing used vegetable oil. Over four years of development and operating experience has developed the basic requirements for a larger processing facility to be developed under this proposal. The development of another mid-sized biodiesel production facility by itself will not significantly change the rate of utilization of this alternative fuel. For example, New York State is currently using over 250,000 gallons biodiesel per year, a large part of our initial annual production of up to 1,000,000 gallons per year. The essence of this proposal is to operate a commercially viable biorefinery based on locally available yellow grease; to promote the use and availability to the public of biodiesel fuel in both B-20 and B-100 formulations; to document the technical operations and project economics of biodiesel production for use in other startup ventures; to make the facility accessible to the public for tours and formal training sessions so as to promote the introduction of the technology throughout the urban centers of the US; to undertake necessary testing of yellow grease-based biodiesel as required by 40 CFR 79 that has not been accomplished to date; and to remove the current obstacles that hinder the more widespread development of production facilities in other urban centers. The initial plan would include some advanced energy management operations. For example, all normal energy inputs required for operation would be site-produced from either on-site biofueled diesel electrical generation, biodiesel operated transportation, or from direct utilization of byproducts as an energy source for thermal process heat. The facility would be the first post-petroleum production facility of its kind, having no provisions for the on-site use of fossil fuels. After the initial startup and operation goals are met, the Biodiesel
Re: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant
Camillo, Perhaps under STP business conditions lower gpd biodiesel plants are less profitable than higher volumes. But micro-regional processing generally is a slightly different wildebeast. Once a process is honed to meet ASTM spec, inclusive of meeting all legislative, environmental and safety dictates, inclusive of NBB fees and production taxes, even a 500 gpd micro-regional facility can generate employment and reasonable profit. Oddly enough, such small facilities enhance the communities they are operating in, rather than larger facilities which reverse the flow of many of the benefits. It's a bit difficult to get the attention of a DOE grant panel unless they are specifically looking for angles that enhance the energy picture of small communities. Still, strictly from a business perspective, a small plant could easily support two or three medium sized families with room to spare - even in the US. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Camillo Holecek [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 8:56 AM Subject: AW: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant Tom, please allow me one question: What is the potential amount of UVO, yellow grease, grease trap and other feedstock within let's say 100 miles around you? A 250,000 gallon per year initial production facility looks to small to be economic according to European experience, where fuel prices are much higher anyway. I do not want to sound too critical, Its just that I do not understand, what is the point you want to make: If it is to produce BD from yellow grease at a commercial scale, that has been shown in several places already, is'nt it? Or is it to develop a US technology for small batch equipment? There is Pacific biodiesel Or is your aim to see as much production capacity up and running in the US as ASAP? In that case I belive our ENERGEA CTER technology approach may help investors to move into the field very fast. Camillo Holecek Biodiesel Raffinerie GmbH, and ENERGEA biodiesel technology, Austria www.energea.at -Ursprngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 07. Juni 2002 22:51 An: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Betreff: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant I got a reply from the US DOE yesterday saying they found no merit in my preliminary grant application. I'm a little disappointed, but thought there might still be something of value here. If you have the time, let me know what you think Tom Leue Homestead Inc. Biomass Research and Development for the Production of Fuels, Power, Chemicals and other Economical and Sustainable Products Solicitation 1435-01-02-RP-86382 Pre-Application Submitted 5/14/02 Submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proposal for a Biodiesel Development Center Submitted by: Thomas S. Leue, President, Homestead Inc. 1664 Cape St., Williamsburg, MA 01096 413 628-4533, Fax 413 628-3973 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Introduction Biodiesel fuel has been shown to be a superior diesel fuel in terms of environmental impact, balance of trade, global warming, toxicity, emissions, engine longevity, etc. However, it has not been generally available to the public due to the limited number of producers and their geographic locations. Biodiesel fuel has a potential to supply approximately 6.6% of national diesel fuel needs, according to the National Biodiesel Board (NBB). To date, the NBB has concentrated on production of biodiesel made from virgin soybean oil, and all testing has been limited to that product. This proposal will lead to the development of an urban biodiesel production facility in Albany, New York that will demonstrate the commercial potential of a fuel production business based on locally available yellow grease and other vegetable oil sources, along with providing the educational resources needed for others to duplicate this facility model in many other urban areas throughout the US. Technical Narrative The production of biodiesel has been developed using numerous technologies over the past twenty years or longer. The technical know how is largely in the public domain, but has not led to widespread production throughout the US. For instance, this researcher maintains the only commercial scale production facility within a 500 mile radius, located in Western Massachusetts. The biodiesel biorefinery operated by Homestead Inc. is a pilot scale, batch type production facility. Although each batch produced is small, currently 20 gallons net per batch and soon to go to 100 gallons net per batch, the large number of batches produced, over 300 to date, has developed an in-depth understanding of the collection and processing systems needed and the variability inherent in processing used vegetable oil. Over four years of development and operating experience has developed the basic requirements for a larger processing facility to be developed under this proposal. The development of another mid-sized biodiesel production facility by
Re: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant
David, I'm trying to get a handle on what yesterday's technology is relative to biodiesel manufacture. Esterification and transesterification technologies aren't going to be changing much more in the future than they have in the recent past. And even if a few improvements in CP or catalysts occur, the wheel is still going to be round, invaluable and profitable. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: David Teal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant Tom, Camillo reckons 250,000 gal/yr is too small to be economic based on European experience. Please bear in mind that Europeans enjoyed a lot of EU financial support and possibly illegal tax breaks in their home markets. Therefore they did not have to hone costs in anything like the way you have done at Yellow. I would suggest you could be right in thinking this is a good size, looking at the Australian and British scenes, which started later and had to be leaner with far less financial help. My second point is that this forum is very concious of promising research into new and better pathways for triglyceride to ester conversion, so it would take a brave person to invest heavily in yesterday's technology. This is not meant as any sort of slight on Camillo's offering nor on the appropriateness of reminding us of it. Indeed, the same could be said of Pacific's technology as mentioned by Keith. David T. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant
Chandra, You're discounting the minor detail of market economics called profit. Micro-facilities can be profitable, with or without government assistance. The real trick is how big of a slice does the bank or venture capitalist want and whether or not the investor is willing to honor non-disclosure and no-competition agreements that are valid in all international courts. Too many investors too soon want to take a concept originator for a ride, rather than being happy with the profits that the concept produces under originally agreed to premises. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Shukrainternationals [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant I came back today and noticed your posting on biofuel site about the result of the application to DOE. It is too bad the application was rejected. My discussions with others after the application was submitted kind of hinted me of the outcome. If you have the confident that this project can be pulled even if there is no Government help, then let me know. It all boils down to production cost and the selling price in the market. -Chandra - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:50 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] DOE Grant I got a reply from the US DOE yesterday saying they found no merit in my preliminary grant application. I'm a little disappointed, but thought there might still be something of value here. If you have the time, let me know what you think Tom Leue Homestead Inc. Biomass Research and Development for the Production of Fuels, Power, Chemicals and other Economical and Sustainable Products Solicitation 1435-01-02-RP-86382 Pre-Application Submitted 5/14/02 Submitted to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Proposal for a Biodiesel Development Center Submitted by: Thomas S. Leue, President, Homestead Inc. 1664 Cape St., Williamsburg, MA 01096 413 628-4533, Fax 413 628-3973 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Introduction Biodiesel fuel has been shown to be a superior diesel fuel in terms of environmental impact, balance of trade, global warming, toxicity, emissions, engine longevity, etc. However, it has not been generally available to the public due to the limited number of producers and their geographic locations. Biodiesel fuel has a potential to supply approximately 6.6% of national diesel fuel needs, according to the National Biodiesel Board (NBB). To date, the NBB has concentrated on production of biodiesel made from virgin soybean oil, and all testing has been limited to that product. This proposal will lead to the development of an urban biodiesel production facility in Albany, New York that will demonstrate the commercial potential of a fuel production business based on locally available yellow grease and other vegetable oil sources, along with providing the educational resources needed for others to duplicate this facility model in many other urban areas throughout the US. Technical Narrative The production of biodiesel has been developed using numerous technologies over the past twenty years or longer. The technical know how is largely in the public domain, but has not led to widespread production throughout the US. For instance, this researcher maintains the only commercial scale production facility within a 500 mile radius, located in Western Massachusetts. The biodiesel biorefinery operated by Homestead Inc. is a pilot scale, batch type production facility. Although each batch produced is small, currently 20 gallons net per batch and soon to go to 100 gallons net per batch, the large number of batches produced, over 300 to date, has developed an in-depth understanding of the collection and processing systems needed and the variability inherent in processing used vegetable oil. Over four years of development and operating experience has developed the basic requirements for a larger processing facility to be developed under this proposal. The development of another mid-sized biodiesel production facility by itself will not significantly change the rate of utilization of this alternative fuel. For example, New York State is currently using over 250,000 gallons biodiesel per year, a large part of our initial annual production of up to 1,000,000 gallons per year. The essence of this proposal is to operate a commercially viable biorefinery based on locally available yellow grease; to promote the use and availability to the public of biodiesel fuel in both B-20 and B-100 formulations; to document the technical operations and project economics of biodiesel production for use in other startup ventures; to make the facility accessible to the public for tours and formal training sessions so as to promote the introduction of the technology throughout the urban
Re: [biofuel] water
Will water in the fuel damage the engine? As far as a diesel motor goes...It will bugger up the pump if it gets that far.. most of it will get trapped in the filter. Meanwhile quite a lot of people are trying to figure ways of getting MORE water into the fuel. See this, for instance: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=835list=BIOFUELS-BIZ In a gasoline engine water injection is desirable especially in turbocharged applications mostly for its cooling effect of detonation avoidance (allowing a higher compression/boost before detonation and preignition set in), however in a diesel or even a turbo diesel this does not really apply as the ignition source is in effect detonation.. Jon Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Oh , actually what you call small, is actually minuscule. David At 06:59 PM 8/06/2002 +0900, you wrote: Hi David Me thinks you need to take the time to read what is written on the pages .. then you will find what you went there for.. I don't think so, there is a 125kg/hr expeller there, but no small presses and no prices. It's just a mirror of the Indian manufacturer's site, there's a lot more information at the Indian site, but still no prices. Might be cheaper from Argentina if you're in the US, or maybe not, or cheaper from India if you're in Oz, or maybe not. http://www.tinytechindia.com/oil.htm Tinytech Plants - Tiny Oil Mill - oil expeller, machinery from India Rajkot http://www.tinytechindia.com/index.htm TINYTECH PLANTS - India - Rajkot- tiny oil mills - oil expeller - machinery - exporter Best Keith David At 04:32 PM 7/06/2002 -0400, you wrote: I don't know what Carlos is talking about. He's seeing something that I'm not. I goto this URL and all that's there are three green industrial grinders. Not only are there no small presses, there are no prices, so what is he talking about when he states not expensive? Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information hello Keith: you can see a small and not expensive oil press at www.savoiapower.com/tiny.html Carlos Hello Carlos Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Oh , actually what you call small, is actually minuscule. David Uh-huh? Well, if you insist, but I said small, and that's what I meant. Ken's after a kitchen-size press and that might be miniscule, but I'd guess a lot of people would like one of those, as he says, including me. Not too useful for fuel production, but if you've got the seed anyway, nice to be able to crank out some fresh salad oil when you want it. The emphasis of this group is small-scale - for backyarders making their own fuel, small farms, local coops: from our point of view, Third World rural village coops. That's Reinhard Henning's emphasis too, with the Sundhara press that will produce 15 litres an hour, three gallons (60-70 kg/hr). I'd say that's about the maximum of the useful range: that size and smaller, down to about 5kg/hr (Ken's other choice, for fuel). Most drivers use about 10 gallons a week. A local coop might want to make 30-50 gallons a day. If they want more than that they'd run two processors rather than scale it up, same with presses - get another one rather than a bigger one. So, yes, small. If you think that's miniscule then you're the one who's out of step, you and probably Carlos - savoiapower's 125kg/hr Tiny Oil Mill is massive overkill for most of our purposes. The Sundhara weighs 40kg, the Tiny press 500kg, it probably costs 7-8 times as much and can't be rigged by a local workshop. Industrial, as Jesse said, not small, certainly not Tiny. Keith At 06:59 PM 8/06/2002 +0900, you wrote: Hi David Me thinks you need to take the time to read what is written on the pages .. then you will find what you went there for.. I don't think so, there is a 125kg/hr expeller there, but no small presses and no prices. It's just a mirror of the Indian manufacturer's site, there's a lot more information at the Indian site, but still no prices. Might be cheaper from Argentina if you're in the US, or maybe not, or cheaper from India if you're in Oz, or maybe not. http://www.tinytechindia.com/oil.htm Tinytech Plants - Tiny Oil Mill - oil expeller, machinery from India Rajkot http://www.tinytechindia.com/index.htm TINYTECH PLANTS - India - Rajkot- tiny oil mills - oil expeller - machinery - exporter Best Keith David At 04:32 PM 7/06/2002 -0400, you wrote: I don't know what Carlos is talking about. He's seeing something that I'm not. I goto this URL and all that's there are three green industrial grinders. Not only are there no small presses, there are no prices, so what is he talking about when he states not expensive? Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information hello Keith: you can see a small and not expensive oil press at www.savoiapower.com/tiny.html Carlos Hello Carlos Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] water
Will water in the fuel damage the engine? As far as a diesel motor goes...It will bugger up the pump if it gets that far.. most of it will get trapped in the filter. Meanwhile quite a lot of people are trying to figure ways of getting MORE water into the fuel. See this, for instance: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=835list=BIOFUELS-BIZ In a gasoline engine water injection is desirable especially in turbocharged applications mostly for its cooling effect of detonation avoidance (allowing a higher compression/boost before detonation and preignition set in), however in a diesel or even a turbo diesel this does not really apply as the ignition source is in effect detonation.. Jon I'm trying to find out more, but this doesn't help very much. One of the refs I provided, the EPA pdf, Bibliography of Water-Fuel Emulsions Studies, lists 23 studies, all with diesels. Following is a list of studies that are being considered for inclusion in work being done by EPA to assess the effects of water-fuel emulsions on emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC), and particulate matter (PM). http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/emulsion/emulbibl.pdf They don't appear to think it will bugger up the pump. We know about water injection in gasoline engines, it's been much discussed here and many people have tested it. See: Ron Novak's Do-It-Yourself Water Injection System http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me3.html The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel - Chapter 2 BASIC FUEL THEORY - Water Injection: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual1-2.html#ch2 It seems a lot of people wouldn't agree with you about water injection in diesels: Regarding misting and water injection. I have not tried this, but have read about many good examples of it on the www.tdiclub.com where people talk about tuning VW turbodiesels. The primary reason I heard of in that circle was related to the turbo. The engine can be made more efficient if the charged air coming into it is cooler. The intercooler does cool down the intake air to some extent, but the amount of cooling possible with a mister into the air intake (post turbo) allows dramatic cooling of the intake charge, especially in parts of the country with dry air (desert and such). Most systems I have seen have been tied to the boost sensor to only inject water under high boost conditions (when the intake air is the hottest because of adiabatic compression in the turbo system. These are available at many hot rodding stores. Just do a web search on it. Hans Rosenberger So I'm still left with the original question: There seem to be combustion efficiency gains (with misters into the air intake) and emissions reductions (with fuel emulsions), but I can't figure which is better and why you wouldn't get both effects either way. What's the difference between a water mist injected with the air vs water in the fuel that gets misted anyway when it's injected with the rest of the fuel? The EAP studies are of emulsions, and one reason it's interesting here is that biodiesel will accept quite a lot of water without the need for additives or emulsifiers. This ref brings in another factor: blending ethanol with biodiesel. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=835list=BIOFUELS-BIZ We need to know more about the combustion and emissions effects of ethanol-biodiesel blends (and the effect on cloud points). Again, it blends well and doesn't need any additives, and up to a certain level the ethanol doesn't need to be absolute, 95% will do. Also it seems an ethanol-biodiesel blend will accept more water than biodiesel alone. The ACREVO study reports major emissions reductions by adding ethanol (95%), but this is with SVO, rapeseed oil. What would be the effect of a similar ethanol-biodiesel blend? The overall combustion performance of the rapeseed oil are very satisfactory in comparison with the diesel fuel while the rapeseed oil produces almost 40 % less soot than diesel fuel. The different volatility of this fuel respect to the diesel fuel is responsible of the different behaviour of the sampled gas concentrations in the base of the flames while at the end of the flames, both attain almost the same values. It has been established that an addition of 9 % of ethyl alcohol (95 %) bring a great benefit regarding the pre-heating oil temperature. In fact, the presence of alcohol allows a reduction in the inlet oil temperature from 150 ¡C to 80 ¡C. Moreover, the combustion of the emulsion produces less soot and, at the exhaust, the amount is almost one half less than that produced by the combustion of rapeseed oil. http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO) Any input for us on these issues Jon? Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels
Re: Fw: [biofuel] Shell buys stake in bioethanol fuel firm Iogen
Greg, Thanks for this - it is the article I was referring to. I work with some people who teach about petroleum engineering and they visit our local Shell refinery (here in Sydney, Australia). I had planned on going with them on the next visit and am interested in what Shell Australia is doing. Thanks again Regards, Philip Dolan Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this the Shell artical ? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 04:20 Subject: [biofuel] Shell buys stake in bioethanol fuel firm Iogen http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/15883/story.htm Planet Ark : Shell buys stake in bioethanol fuel firm Iogen CANADA: May 9, 2002 CALGARY, Alberta - Canada's Iogen Energy Corp., developer of a process to turn forest and agricultural waste into a low-emissions auto fuel, has drawn a $29 million investment from oil giant Royal Dutch/Shell Group , which is on the prowl for alternative energy sources. Privately owned, Ottawa-based Iogen focuses on bioethanol, a high-octane alcohol formed by fermenting sugars found in plant fibre such as wood and straw. Its goal is to mass produce bioethanol, which can be blended with gasoline to produce a more environmentally friendly fuel. Shell, the Anglo-Dutch giant that owns 72 percent of Shell Canada Ltd. , the country's No. 2 integrated oil firm, will own just over 20 percent of Iogen in return for the investment, an Iogen executive said. Shell is not the first petroleum firm to pump money into Iogen, which employs about 100 people and owns a C$35 million ($22.3 million) demonstration plant. Petro-Canada , the country's No. 4 producer, refiner and marketer, provided seed funding in late 1997 that helped Iogen build its pilot plant in Ottawa. Lesley Taylor, a spokeswoman for Shell Canada, said Iogen's process could substantially reduce total greenhouse gas emissions from vehicles. In terms of of sustainable development, it would definitely be an interesting development for us, she said. We would be open to using (bioethanol) once it's commercially available and viable. Some Canadian fuel retailers, such as Husky Energy Inc. and Suncor Energy Inc. , already blend ethanol into their gasoline to reduce pollution. Most of the world's 30 billion litres a year of ethanol is produced from sugar cane in Brazil and from grains in the United States. In Brazil, the United States and Sweden it is already blended into gasoline. Royal Dutch/Shell Group said it recognized that fuel using such traditionally produced ethanol is unlikely to ever compete commercially with normal gasoline, but bioethanol offers a more economic and sustainable blending component. The firm has earmarked $500 million of investment over a five-year period for cleaner energy projects. REUTERS NEWS SERVICE Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
Motie, You are again using a wide brush and water colors to paint detailed gingerbread trim. The wide brush is all too encompassing and the water color paint doesn't hold up in all conditions. Using one instance in whatever state you describe as the Nanny State still leaves thousands of instances and 49 other states unaddressed - not all of which are prone to sufficient snow pack for two stroke tracks, of course. Broad strokes don't take into consideration the wear differential between 18, 6 or even 4 hard driving, braking and turning wheels under max legal road weights and high speeds and a tandem carrying two persons subscribing to Weight Watchers with fully loaded saddle bags. Broad strokes don't address the differential acquisition, construction and maintenance costs per mile to handle the same passenger flow, or a thousand other tax based cost/benefit nuances along each transportation corridor, no matter if it be a bike path, interstate or air lane. As for tax allocation, it sounds as if you're more in favor of a user pays system, as you don't want transportation taxes allocated to transportation sectors other than where they are collected. Even when using such a schedule, a tractor-trailer is going to put different burdens on infrastructure than a Yugo, Cressida or Caprice. But the retort the public will always hear is that truckers are the backbone of America and therefore should be given a pass - even under a user pays system? Funny...People who don't smoke pay taxes which buy life support for enfasymics and canceritics. People who don't mainline pay dearly for international and domestic drug control policies. People who don't have children pay through the nose for schools, teachers and administrators through elevated property taxes. Frankly, I can hardly wait until the day when the true cost of petroleum production is allocated strictly against the cost of a gallon of petrol, as is largely done in Europe, rather than through hidden taxation as is done here. No doubt transportation industries will really cry foul then, having a strong go at stirring up the public sentiment, using the traditional increased cost of goods argument to rally support. And when they succeed, as is often the case, those of us who consume little fuel will continue to heavily subsidize the tax base for those who consume considerably more. So, Motie... I'm sorry. But you won't be seeing me joining you on a soapbox until you can get a little more specific and until those specifics begin to outweigh all the other injustices that are getting painted over and ignored by broad brush strokes. And you probably won't be seeing many tears in my eyes over snowmobilers having their trails re-appropriated. Seven winters in Alaska doesn't give me any great respect for the vast majority of snow mobilers, any more than annual retreats to wilderness areas give me a drop of respect for off road bycyclists who run trekkers off the trails. Besides, if you're talking equity or parity, the horse and buggy industry had the same thing happen to all the trails they originally broke. Now they have the luxury of 3,000 - 45,000 pound sleds come crashing through their back seats every time they venture out on the very roads their industry once cleared. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay...Nothing more inviting in a discussion than all-encompassing, generally sweeping statements like the one below. Don't suppose anyone has ever calculated the proportions of road tax expenditures to see how much went to bicycle paths, how much went to pot holes and by-passes and how much went to tarmac and terminals? I certainly wouldn't mind seeing $7,000 from each trucker in the US go to nothing but bike paths for an entire year - or just one or two good transcontinental bike lanes on an existing highway so those who long to travel by bicycle no longer have to be as concerned with the numerous motor vehicle operators who can't tell the difference and all too frequently could care less what the difference is between a family of opossums and a half dozen bicyclists. Just a thought from someone who would still be riding ~500 miles a week if they hadn't already been forced off the road ~20 times in less than 2 years by ijuts who got their license out of a Cracker Jack box. Todd Swearingen Then why can't we tax bicycle riders and frequent fliers to pay for highway repairs? I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest, but why should truckers be singled out to pay for bicycle paths and airport runways? The increase I mentioned was $.05 gallon and was used for bicycle paths and other non-highway projects. That's pretty easily $5/day increase for truckers to
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
The Komet line has one that'll give you the exercise you seek. Hand operated. Does about 10 lbs. Of seed per hour. Cost is about $1700 US delivered to you. (quality never comes cheap). You can press oil out of darn near anything with it - some of them are pretty high value oils (nutraceutical/pharmaceutical). You could run that 1 litre car from VW for a week, for a little bit of a workout on the press. Happy cranking, think of the savings on gym memberships! You'll have forearms like Popeye in no time! Maybe we should offer it on TV, on the easy payment plan and do an infomercial with Chuck Norris and a few models, showing how you can work the abs, the thighs... ;-) Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/9/02 6:20 AM, Harmon Seaver at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:10:48PM +0930, David wrote: Perhaps you could use Grandma's old duck press to do the quantities that you want .. by normal press standards, these are minuscule and totally impractical. What is *normal*? I can't imagine that I would have any use for any more than 3 gal @ hr. Even [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be great. I'd absolutely love to have an oilpress that size. David At 05:14 PM 9/06/2002 +0900, you wrote: Oh , actually what you call small, is actually minuscule. David Uh-huh? Well, if you insist, but I said small, and that's what I meant. Ken's after a kitchen-size press and that might be miniscule, but I'd guess a lot of people would like one of those, as he says, including me. Not too useful for fuel production, but if you've got the seed anyway, nice to be able to crank out some fresh salad oil when you want it. Snip Yada yada yada End Snip So, yes, small. If you think that's miniscule then you're the one who's out of step, you and probably Carlos - savoiapower's 125kg/hr Tiny Oil Mill is massive overkill for most of our purposes. The Sundhara weighs 40kg, the Tiny press 500kg, it probably costs 7-8 times as much and can't be rigged by a local workshop. Industrial, as Jesse said, not small, certainly not Tiny. Keith Snip The rest of the surplus crap End snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
How exactly does it work? Does it just have grinding/pressing wheels that squeeze the hell out of the seed/whatever? --- Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Komet line has one that'll give you the exercise you seek. Hand operated. Does about 10 lbs. Of seed per hour. Cost is about $1700 US delivered to you. (quality never comes cheap). You can press oil out of darn near anything with it - some of them are pretty high value oils (nutraceutical/pharmaceutical). You could run that 1 litre car from VW for a week, for a little bit of a workout on the press. = -Martin Klingensmith http://archive.nnytech.net/ http://devzero.ath.cx/ http://www.nnytech.net/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Dear Keith, I«d find it very interesting (so as to update my thesis), to get the specifications of ASTM«s new D6751. Please let me know if you have them, and if so, please pass them on. They«d really come in handy. Best wishes, Christian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] water Hi Christian Hi Keith, I«m answering this letter separate from Ken«s answer. Regarding I'm really not sure at this stage whether that's good advice or not though., my intention is not to freak everyone out. Oh, I meant my advice might not be good, not yours. I simply wouldn«t want anybody to ruin a 2,5lt Grand Cherokee motor by fooling around. No, nor any motor. Water, as you«ve mentioned, can bring some benefits in combustion, and often in chimeneys in industries (for example, when burning hydrocarbons) steam is injected into the flame area to produce a cleaner combustion. I don«t quite understand how, but it supposedly does. In a motor, excess water is said to be a probable cause of rust, and water-traps do exist in diesel engines for some reason. Free water in dinodiesel is one thing, an emulsified water-dino blend seems to be another, and dissolved water in biod should be more like the blend (with its advantages). At least I think so. More in my other message on this. I«m not quite familiar wth the related problems, and I«ve found Camillo Holecek«s quote most interesting. I«ll try to dig into the subject a bit more. Why not ask Camillo? He's head of Energea in Austria. Here's his address: Camillo Holecek [EMAIL PROTECTED] LAB RESULTS were as followed: Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Kinematic Viscosity @ 40¼C: 3.654 cSt Density: 0.8797 g/cm3 Corrosion: (heating to 100¼C over half an hour with inmersed metal strips) Aluminum Strip: Slight change in opacity, barely noticeable. Copper strip: No observed change Tin strip: No observed change Iron strip: No observed change Cloud Point: 9¼C to 10¼C Pour Point: -4.7¼C Carbon Residue: 0.0711% (ASTM D189) Water Sediment: 1000-2000 ppm Cloud point and pour point a bit high, everything else is just fine. And the water probably fits in with what Camillo says. Well done Christian. It's great we can make good fuel like this eh? No need to be Exxon-Mobil! IR Spectrometry: I sent it in attached to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thankyou, received. All best Keith Best wishes, Christian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] water Hi Christian Well, it's interesting. Do those maximums for water content in the standards make any sense? Will water in the fuel damage the engine? First, this is what Camillo Holecek said about it recently: The Austrian Standard ONORM C 1191 said only: No water should settle out (i.e. about 1200ppm water would stay in solution in our FAME.) All others bother about 500 and even 300 ppm (DIN), which is nonsense IMO, as FAME is hygroscopic and will attract humidity from air until it is back to 1200ppm. Means, in your car you will have anything but 300ppm. (FAME being Fatty Acid Methyl Esters, ie biodiesel.) Meanwhile quite a lot of people are trying to figure ways of getting MORE water into the fuel. See this, for instance: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=835list=BIOFUELS-BIZ Also this: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/emulsion/emulbibl.pdf And this: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/reference/refer.html There seem to be combustion efficiency gains (with misters into the air intake) and emissions reductions (with fuel emulsions), but I can't figure which is better and why you wouldn't get both effects either way. What's the difference between a water mist injected with the air vs water in the fuel that gets misted anyway when it's injected with the rest of the fuel? Anway, until we settle it one way or the other, if ever, maybe don't worry too much about a little excess water. I'm really not sure at this stage whether that's good advice or not though. What d you think? Christian, what were your lab results, if you don't mind telling us? Regards Keith Hi all. I ran some lab tests on my BD (from M. Pelly«s recipe), including IR spectrometry, Flash point, Pour point, Cloud point, Density, Viscosity, Residual Carbon and free water sediment. My findings showed quite a good BD, except for the water. ASTM requires 0,05 % vol max of water. I
ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Todd, I«ve just asked Keith, but I just as well might ask you. Could you send me the BD specs as per ASTM D6751? I«m still working with PS121 (which I have), but it seems some values have been revised. Thanks, Christian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Ed Beggs writes: The Komet line has one that'll give you the exercise you seek. Hand operated. Does about 10 lbs. Of seed per hour. Cost is about $1700 US delivered to you. (quality never comes cheap). You can press oil out of darn near anything with it - some of them are pretty high value oils (nutraceutical/pharmaceutical). You could run that 1 litre car from VW for a week, for a little bit of a workout on the press. Happy cranking.. No problem with the exercise, but the price is still pretty steep. I'm gonna try to build a piston, cage and pressure cone after the Bielenberg design (maybe even try to enlist his help...), and use a hydraulic jack to drive the piston. I bet a little kit with just those three tricky parts (you supply your own jack, lever, or whatever, and mounting brackets) could sell a couple a year to crazy experimenters :-) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Christian, Here are the specs. Flash point (closed cup): 130*C minimum (150*C average) Water and sediment: 0.050 % by volume, maximum Kinematic viscosity at 40*C: 1.9 - 6.0 mm2/s Sulfated ash: 0.020 % by mass, maximum Sulfur: 0.05 % by mass, maximum Cetane: 47 minimum Carbon residue: 0.050 % by mass, maximum Total glycerine (free glycerine and unconverted glycerides combined): 0.240 % by mass, maximum Phosphorous content: 0.001 % by mass, maximum - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:04 PM Subject: Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Todd, I«ve just asked Keith, but I just as well might ask you. Could you send me the BD specs as per ASTM D6751? I«m still working with PS121 (which I have), but it seems some values have been revised. Thanks, Christian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _ _ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
We've never had anything other than sneers and rudeness from you, so it's hard to gauge what your normal press standards would be. I've said what the standards are for most people here, as they've said too, and why they're practical, in the surplus crap you've snipped. And this is your thoughtful and considered response. I guess it speaks for itself. Keith Perhaps you could use Grandma's old duck press to do the quantities that you want .. by normal press standards, these are minuscule and totally impractical. David At 05:14 PM 9/06/2002 +0900, you wrote: Oh , actually what you call small, is actually minuscule. David Uh-huh? Well, if you insist, but I said small, and that's what I meant. Ken's after a kitchen-size press and that might be miniscule, but I'd guess a lot of people would like one of those, as he says, including me. Not too useful for fuel production, but if you've got the seed anyway, nice to be able to crank out some fresh salad oil when you want it. Snip Yada yada yada End Snip So, yes, small. If you think that's miniscule then you're the one who's out of step, you and probably Carlos - savoiapower's 125kg/hr Tiny Oil Mill is massive overkill for most of our purposes. The Sundhara weighs 40kg, the Tiny press 500kg, it probably costs 7-8 times as much and can't be rigged by a local workshop. Industrial, as Jesse said, not small, certainly not Tiny. Keith Snip The rest of the surplus crap End snip surplus crap reinstated: Oh , actually what you call small, is actually minuscule. David Uh-huh? Well, if you insist, but I said small, and that's what I meant. Ken's after a kitchen-size press and that might be miniscule, but I'd guess a lot of people would like one of those, as he says, including me. Not too useful for fuel production, but if you've got the seed anyway, nice to be able to crank out some fresh salad oil when you want it. The emphasis of this group is small-scale - for backyarders making their own fuel, small farms, local coops: from our point of view, Third World rural village coops. That's Reinhard Henning's emphasis too, with the Sundhara press that will produce 15 litres an hour, three gallons (60-70 kg/hr). I'd say that's about the maximum of the useful range: that size and smaller, down to about 5kg/hr (Ken's other choice, for fuel). Most drivers use about 10 gallons a week. A local coop might want to make 30-50 gallons a day. If they want more than that they'd run two processors rather than scale it up, same with presses - get another one rather than a bigger one. So, yes, small. If you think that's miniscule then you're the one who's out of step, you and probably Carlos - savoiapower's 125kg/hr Tiny Oil Mill is massive overkill for most of our purposes. The Sundhara weighs 40kg, the Tiny press 500kg, it probably costs 7-8 times as much and can't be rigged by a local workshop. Industrial, as Jesse said, not small, certainly not Tiny. Keith At 06:59 PM 8/06/2002 +0900, you wrote: Hi David Me thinks you need to take the time to read what is written on the pages .. then you will find what you went there for.. I don't think so, there is a 125kg/hr expeller there, but no small presses and no prices. It's just a mirror of the Indian manufacturer's site, there's a lot more information at the Indian site, but still no prices. Might be cheaper from Argentina if you're in the US, or maybe not, or cheaper from India if you're in Oz, or maybe not. http://www.tinytechindia.com/oil.htm Tinytech Plants - Tiny Oil Mill - oil expeller, machinery from India Rajkot http://www.tinytechindia.com/index.htm TINYTECH PLANTS - India - Rajkot- tiny oil mills - oil expeller - machinery - exporter Best Keith David At 04:32 PM 7/06/2002 -0400, you wrote: I don't know what Carlos is talking about. He's seeing something that I'm not. I goto this URL and all that's there are three green industrial grinders. Not only are there no small presses, there are no prices, so what is he talking about when he states not expensive? Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information hello Keith: you can see a small and not expensive oil press at www.savoiapower.com/tiny.html Carlos Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: (Todd)
Thanks Todd. I assume all other values the same as PS121? i.e., Sulfur, copper stri corrosion, cloud point, carbon residue, carbon residue (Ramsbottom), Acid nmber Free glycerin. One question: I tested my carbon residue (closed cup) and it added up to 0,0711% (as opposed to 0,05 specified by ASTM). How critical is this, and where does this residue come from? Thanks again, Christian - Original Message - To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 2:21 PM X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Yahoo-Profile: appalenergy MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list biofuel@yahoogroups.com; contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: mailing list biofuel@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:18:07 -0400 Subject: Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Christian, Here are the specs. Flash point (closed cup): 130*C minimum (150*C average) Water and sediment: 0.050 % by volume, maximum Kinematic viscosity at 40*C: 1.9 - 6.0 mm2/s Sulfated ash: 0.020 % by mass, maximum Sulfur: 0.05 % by mass, maximum Cetane: 47 minimum Carbon residue: 0.050 % by mass, maximum Total glycerine (free glycerine and unconverted glycerides combined): 0.240 % by mass, maximum Phosphorous content: 0.001 % by mass, maximum - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:04 PM Subject: Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Todd, I«ve just asked Keith, but I just as well might ask you. Could you send me the BD specs as per ASTM D6751? I«m still working with PS121 (which I have), but it seems some values have been revised. Thanks, Christian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _ _ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Re: [biofuel] Oil Presses
Harmon Seaver wrote: It would really be nice to find some sort of screw mechanism tho, that you could get cheaply (maybe some mil-surplus gizmo?) and built a real screw press. I was going on the same track before trying to figure out a way to make pellets from biomass. The ram presses just don't make as good a pellet, don't know how they'd do for oil, maybe it wouldn't make any difference. Yup, the screw is better, but I think that's why all those small presses (e.g., Sundhara and Tby) are so expensive. That screw is a fancy piece of work, with the outward taper at the end to increase the pressure, and the periodic gaps along the thread (???..maybe to help stir up the seed cake?) That's why Bielenberg's press is so popular in Africa -- it's CHEEEP! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Doesn't oil in the seed store much better? Wouldn't people want a kitchen expeller to avoid the rancid oil that I hear is a health issue? Less than $200 would probably find buyers. Quality juicers are in that price range. Kirk -Original Message- From: Ken Provost [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:08 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information Ed Beggs writes: The Komet line has one that'll give you the exercise you seek. Hand operated. Does about 10 lbs. Of seed per hour. Cost is about $1700 US delivered to you. (quality never comes cheap). You can press oil out of darn near anything with it - some of them are pretty high value oils (nutraceutical/pharmaceutical). You could run that 1 litre car from VW for a week, for a little bit of a workout on the press. Happy cranking.. No problem with the exercise, but the price is still pretty steep. I'm gonna try to build a piston, cage and pressure cone after the Bielenberg design (maybe even try to enlist his help...), and use a hydraulic jack to drive the piston. I bet a little kit with just those three tricky parts (you supply your own jack, lever, or whatever, and mounting brackets) could sell a couple a year to crazy experimenters :-) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: (Todd)
Christian, I don't have PS121 anywhere on file. So I can't say with any certainty anything other than one was the interim standard and 6751 is the final standard. As for carbon residue, it's the measure of the carbon depositing tendencies of a fuel oil, considered to be an approximation. We haven't received the standard for the particular test method, so it's pretty difficult to guestimate how critical your variance would be or if closed cup is the or an accepted method. Just call me a mushroom at the moment. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 2:31 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: (Todd) Thanks Todd. I assume all other values the same as PS121? i.e., Sulfur, copper stri corrosion, cloud point, carbon residue, carbon residue (Ramsbottom), Acid nmber Free glycerin. One question: I tested my carbon residue (closed cup) and it added up to 0,0711% (as opposed to 0,05 specified by ASTM). How critical is this, and where does this residue come from? Thanks again, Christian - Original Message - To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 2:21 PM X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Yahoo-Profile: appalenergy MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list biofuel@yahoogroups.com; contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: mailing list biofuel@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:18:07 -0400 Subject: Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Christian, Here are the specs. Flash point (closed cup): 130*C minimum (150*C average) Water and sediment: 0.050 % by volume, maximum Kinematic viscosity at 40*C: 1.9 - 6.0 mm2/s Sulfated ash: 0.020 % by mass, maximum Sulfur: 0.05 % by mass, maximum Cetane: 47 minimum Carbon residue: 0.050 % by mass, maximum Total glycerine (free glycerine and unconverted glycerides combined): 0.240 % by mass, maximum Phosphorous content: 0.001 % by mass, maximum - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:04 PM Subject: Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Todd, I«ve just asked Keith, but I just as well might ask you. Could you send me the BD specs as per ASTM D6751? I«m still working with PS121 (which I have), but it seems some values have been revised. Thanks, Christian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _ _ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send
[biofuel] Re: Mistake
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those who were curious, the razor wire remark from Ms. Musser below came via www.bridgingthegap.org , which appears to be something akin to a 501 C-3 offshoot of KAB - Keep America Beautiful - Kansas City, Kansas. And I thank you for bringing that to our attention. I was curious about the unprovoked unfounded attack. Knowing the source makes it more understandable. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Been thinking the same thing. Somebody build it. Make it strong, cheap and effective. We'll maybe be interested in then marketing it. Regards, Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/9/02 10:24 AM, Harmon Seaver at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:08:00AM -0700, Ken Provost wrote: No problem with the exercise, but the price is still pretty steep. I'm gonna try to build a piston, cage and pressure cone after the Bielenberg design (maybe even try to enlist his help...), and use a hydraulic jack to drive the piston. I bet a little kit with just those three tricky parts (you supply your own jack, lever, or whatever, and mounting brackets) could sell a couple a year to crazy experimenters :-) It would really be nice to find some sort of screw mechanism tho, that you could get cheaply (maybe some mil-surplus gizmo?) and built a real screw press. I was going on the same track before trying to figure out a way to make pellets from biomass. The ram presses just don't make as good a pellet, don't know how they'd do for oil, maybe it wouldn't make any difference. Anyway, what I was last thinking was building a combo log splitter/pellet press. Engine driven, of course, not just a handpump jack. I need the log splitter anyway, so maybe just build it so you put different ends on the ram, etc. One of those could be for oilseed. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for tax allocation, it sounds as if you're more in favor of a user pays system, as you don't want transportation taxes allocated to transportation sectors other than where they are collected. Even when using such a schedule, a tractor-trailer is going to put different burdens on infrastructure than a Yugo, Cressida or Caprice. But the retort the public will always hear is that truckers are the backbone of America and therefore should be given a pass - even under a user pays system? I never intended to give the impression that I thought truckers should be given a free pass. I DO think that at least a majority of what they pay should be used for highways. Funny...People who don't smoke pay taxes which buy life support for enfasymics and canceritics. People who don't mainline pay dearly for international and domestic drug control policies. People who don't have children pay through the nose for schools, teachers and administrators through elevated property taxes. And I disagree with most of this too. Parents that are concerned about their children's education are already paying twice. Once through property taxes to support Public Indoctrination centers, and once more for actual education in private or home schools. Frankly, I can hardly wait until the day when the true cost of petroleum production is allocated strictly against the cost of a gallon of petrol, as is largely done in Europe, rather than through hidden taxation as is done here. No doubt transportation industries will really cry foul then, having a strong go at stirring up the public sentiment, using the traditional increased cost of goods argument to rally support. And when they succeed, as is often the case, those of us who consume little fuel will continue to heavily subsidize the tax base for those who consume considerably more. Once again, we are in agreement. It's a 'Rob Peter to pay Paul' concept. Those who don't use much fuel subsidize somewhat those who do use a lot, and those who do use a lot are taxed very heavily for uses not at all related to fuel useage. So, Motie... I'm sorry. But you won't be seeing me joining you on a soapbox until you can get a little more specific and until those specifics begin to outweigh all the other injustices that are getting painted over and ignored by broad brush strokes. I think we are on the same soapbox already. I only pointed out a couple of the many details that don't seem to be sensible. And you probably won't be seeing many tears in my eyes over snowmobilers having their trails re-appropriated. Seven winters in Alaska doesn't give me any great respect for the vast majority of snow mobilers, any more than annual retreats to wilderness areas give me a drop of respect for off road bycyclists who run trekkers off the trails. Try taxing snowmobile fuel and raising registration fees to put in snowmobile trails, then pave them for bicycle use, and then ban snowmobiles from using them. Or institute a 10% tax on all fishing gear to build a nice access to a popular lake, then ban fishing on it. See if that won't raise a protest by fishermen. Besides, if you're talking equity or parity, the horse and buggy industry had the same thing happen to all the trails they originally broke. Now they have the luxury of 3,000 - 45,000 pound sleds come crashing through their back seats every time they venture out on the very roads their industry once cleared. I'm not sure this is an accurate analogy, as long as the horses are still allowed to use the trails. When horses are banned from them because they create a hazard, after being charged exorbitant tax rates to build the trails, you'll be closer. (sarcasm) Perhaps Sports Stadiums should be forced to raise ticket prices by $10 each for a couple of seasons to raise funds to build a new Stadium, then when the new stadium is built, and the old one torn down, it will only be for exclusive use of a Radio-controlled airplane club, who will be allowed free access. Maintanance costs for the Stadium would be paid for by an increased sales tax on all football and baseball gear. If football fans want to see a football game, they'll have to rent space in a local Kmart parking lot, or go out of state. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
Motie, How 'bout just makin' it simple for us poor knee jerk reactionaries whose knees don't work as fast as they used to? Exactly where is it that your trucker buds are getting bled dry and other consumers of road use fuel did not? Seems to me that the industry got off really light for half a century when diesel fuel was being sold for half the price of gasoline. Sure didn't hear any bitching then. Personally? I'd like to see 9/10ths of the airline industry and 3/5ths of the trucking industry out of a job as quickly as the infrastructure can be altered without economic devastation. Which would also mean one hell of a lot of other alterations around the global economic for about 30 years. Again...Sorry, but you won't find me too far out of synch with anything that promotes de-escalation of consumerism, excess consumption, rapid access, instant gratification and general radical transformation of the face, waters and air of this Eartheven if it means I won't be embroidering any more billboard caps for truckers and I have to start using home grown oil on the lap siding rather than imported Sherwin Williams from the nearest metro center. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 6:09 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As for tax allocation, it sounds as if you're more in favor of a user pays system, as you don't want transportation taxes allocated to transportation sectors other than where they are collected. Even when using such a schedule, a tractor-trailer is going to put different burdens on infrastructure than a Yugo, Cressida or Caprice. But the retort the public will always hear is that truckers are the backbone of America and therefore should be given a pass - even under a user pays system? I never intended to give the impression that I thought truckers should be given a free pass. I DO think that at least a majority of what they pay should be used for highways. Funny...People who don't smoke pay taxes which buy life support for enfasymics and canceritics. People who don't mainline pay dearly for international and domestic drug control policies. People who don't have children pay through the nose for schools, teachers and administrators through elevated property taxes. And I disagree with most of this too. Parents that are concerned about their children's education are already paying twice. Once through property taxes to support Public Indoctrination centers, and once more for actual education in private or home schools. Frankly, I can hardly wait until the day when the true cost of petroleum production is allocated strictly against the cost of a gallon of petrol, as is largely done in Europe, rather than through hidden taxation as is done here. No doubt transportation industries will really cry foul then, having a strong go at stirring up the public sentiment, using the traditional increased cost of goods argument to rally support. And when they succeed, as is often the case, those of us who consume little fuel will continue to heavily subsidize the tax base for those who consume considerably more. Once again, we are in agreement. It's a 'Rob Peter to pay Paul' concept. Those who don't use much fuel subsidize somewhat those who do use a lot, and those who do use a lot are taxed very heavily for uses not at all related to fuel useage. So, Motie... I'm sorry. But you won't be seeing me joining you on a soapbox until you can get a little more specific and until those specifics begin to outweigh all the other injustices that are getting painted over and ignored by broad brush strokes. I think we are on the same soapbox already. I only pointed out a couple of the many details that don't seem to be sensible. And you probably won't be seeing many tears in my eyes over snowmobilers having their trails re-appropriated. Seven winters in Alaska doesn't give me any great respect for the vast majority of snow mobilers, any more than annual retreats to wilderness areas give me a drop of respect for off road bycyclists who run trekkers off the trails. Try taxing snowmobile fuel and raising registration fees to put in snowmobile trails, then pave them for bicycle use, and then ban snowmobiles from using them. Or institute a 10% tax on all fishing gear to build a nice access to a popular lake, then ban fishing on it. See if that won't raise a protest by fishermen. Besides, if you're talking equity or parity, the horse and buggy industry had the same thing happen to all the trails they originally broke. Now they have the luxury of 3,000 - 45,000 pound sleds come crashing through their back seats every time they venture out on the very roads their industry once cleared. I'm not sure this is an
Re: [biofuel] water
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] water Will water in the fuel damage the engine? As far as a diesel motor goes...It will bugger up the pump if it gets that far.. most of it will get trapped in the filter. snippo They don't appear to think it will bugger up the pump. Big Snippo Tell that to a friend of mine who got a wet load of diesel in his disco TDi $A2.5k later the pump was good as new. The water is very abrasive to the extremely fine tolerance internals of modern Diesel injector pumps. Get a Racor aftermarket filter, it does not allow water to pass and will cause the motor to stave rather than let water through. Neil Canberra Aus. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] water
They don't appear to think it will bugger up the pump. Ask any proffessional diesel mechanic what the top 2 things that cause injector pump damage are... they will respond with water and dirt. Why do you think the fuel filters are designed to collect water? If you dont take their word for it.. ask Bosch, Lucas, Perkins, Peugeot... I have been trained by these people, every one of them makes a very big point that water must be kept out of the injection pump at all costs... I have seen to outcome of water getting into my customers pumps, and its always turned out to be expensive. We know about water injection in gasoline engines, it's been much discussed here and many people have tested it. See: I would agree, I fitted several systems and developed my own controller for turbo applications on gas engines.. It seems a lot of people wouldn't agree with you about water injection in diesels: My main conscern is the water entering through the injector pump where its not advised... I can see advantages to water being part of the combustion mix through... I can see this thread may become a can of worms, just as water injection (via the intake runners, not the pump) is a can of worms issue in the diesel world... One of the reasons for Turbo diesel tuners (in the performance use of the word tuners) using water injection is to cool the intake charge... a cool intake charge is more dense, and therefore you increase the amount of oxygen drawn for combustion, for the same reason intercoolers are used... In my own experience, the best resaults for water misting , on a TD are when just enough water is used to ensure cooling of the charge, but not enough that water enters the engine in an atomised form once water is introduced to combustion in an atomised form, more power is lost due to a slower burn (caused by the water) than is gained by the increased charge density on gas engines things are very different, as some atomised water during combustion is desirable to retard the higher burn speed of the higher dynamic compression caused by the boost, and to cool hotspots which set off pre-ignition. If power in a TD or straight D was not the ultimate conscern, there are some benefits to water injection... not least the fact that the water can help remove carbon build-up or used to prevent carbon building up.. With water injection on a diesel engine, its a game of swings and roundabouts.. you make a gain here... you see a loss there... its always very difficult to see the wood for the trees... 1 I have given this some thought today... and perhaps I am backtracking... but I can see advantage with water injection (sepparate from the injection pump) mostly in TD applications I can also see that if an agent is used, water in the fuel may not be harmfull to the injection pump... but what I am sure of... straight water, in straight diesel.. is not good to your pump... if someone has an additive to allow water to pass through a pump without causing damage then thats great... I just wont be using it on my own vehicles just yet :o) Any input for us on these issues Jon? I can see more benefits from mixing ethanol with the BD than I can see with premixing water with BD (or just leaving some wash water in your BD)... Ethanol would not cause problems for an injection pump, would thin down the BD closer to the viscosity of the dino diesel that the injectors are designed for (off the shelf), and would reduce some of the winter worries of BD... but too much ethanol could be damaging to the engine causing ultrasonic detonation (ricardo wave).. I was interested to read about the effects of BD mixing with water so well in comparison with dinoD.. I think I would need to give serious thought to the whole subject.. and perhaps run some experiments... my conscern isnt with how well the water is retained in the BD without seperation, but with if the water content of this mix would cause damage through oxidisation of the pump components (even a minute amound of oxidisation of the pump internals will destroy it)... its all very thought provoking though... Jon Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Okay...Who's the jackal behind the curtain? was Fw: your subscribe request
It would seem that this gremlin has re-emerged after a week's dormancy. Seems that as soon as this terminal corresponds with either Yahoo Biodiesel, Biofuels-Biz or Biofuels that it re-emerges in full bloom. Somebody trying to say that I should have stayed on holiday? I'm not too inclined to believe that it's either random or automatic. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyris ListManager [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:12 PM Subject: Re: your subscribe request Re: your subscribe request subscribe Sorry, but the email address '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' is already a member of 'sdos-china'. Because you are already subscribed, Lyris ListManager did not subscribe you again. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Yeah! Let's see some pictures of that thing Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information How exactly does it work? Does it just have grinding/pressing wheels that squeeze the hell out of the seed/whatever? --- Neoteric Biofuels Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Komet line has one that'll give you the exercise you seek. Hand operated. Does about 10 lbs. Of seed per hour. Cost is about $1700 US delivered to you. (quality never comes cheap). You can press oil out of darn near anything with it - some of them are pretty high value oils (nutraceutical/pharmaceutical). You could run that 1 litre car from VW for a week, for a little bit of a workout on the press. = -Martin Klingensmith http://archive.nnytech.net/ http://devzero.ath.cx/ http://www.nnytech.net/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] water
Neil wrote: - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] water Will water in the fuel damage the engine? As far as a diesel motor goes...It will bugger up the pump if it gets that far.. most of it will get trapped in the filter. snippo They don't appear to think it will bugger up the pump. Big Snippo You snippo the wrong stuffo - we're not talking about wet diesel. Following is a list of studies that are being considered for inclusion in work being done by EPA to assess the effects of water-fuel emulsions on emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx), hydrocarbons (HC), and particulate matter (PM). http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/emulsion/emulbibl.pdf A water-fuel emulsion is rather a different matter, eh? And so is water DISSOLVED in biodiesel, which it won't do in dino-diesel without an emulsion. No filter will remove dissolved water. How much of it though, and what are the effects? Good question, not yet answered. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Tell that to a friend of mine who got a wet load of diesel in his disco TDi $A2.5k later the pump was good as new. The water is very abrasive to the extremely fine tolerance internals of modern Diesel injector pumps. Get a Racor aftermarket filter, it does not allow water to pass and will cause the motor to stave rather than let water through. Neil Canberra Aus. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Okay...Who's the jackal behind the curtain? was Fw: your subscribe request
Todd, that's impossible - Elsevier closed that list down because it was causing us this trouble and they couldn't figure why, it no longer exists. I'll forward this to them, see what they say. Damn. Keith It would seem that this gremlin has re-emerged after a week's dormancy. Seems that as soon as this terminal corresponds with either Yahoo Biodiesel, Biofuels-Biz or Biofuels that it re-emerges in full bloom. Somebody trying to say that I should have stayed on holiday? I'm not too inclined to believe that it's either random or automatic. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyris ListManager [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:12 PM Subject: Re: your subscribe request Re: your subscribe request subscribe Sorry, but the email address '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' is already a member of 'sdos-china'. Because you are already subscribed, Lyris ListManager did not subscribe you again. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
You are not going to find one for $200, me thinks...that's highly machine (low tolerence) pieces of good quality metal that you're getting. I think maybe just under a $1000 would be interesting. Electric of course, no hand job. Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 2:54 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Equipment Information Doesn't oil in the seed store much better? Wouldn't people want a kitchen expeller to avoid the rancid oil that I hear is a health issue? Less than $200 would probably find buyers. Quality juicers are in that price range. Kirk Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Todd, I'm detecting a hostile undertone that I don't quite understand the basis of. Is it my perception that is faulty? Exactly where is it that your trucker buds are getting bled dry and other consumers of road use fuel did not? It isn't only Truckers that are being bled, but they are specifically singled out for many other taxes that other users are exempt from besides fuel and registration. Tire taxes are one of them, and 12% excise tax on all parts is another. Car and Bus owners used to pay about $3 each Federal Excise tax on tires. Car owners are now exempt from the tire tax, while the tire tax for truckers was doubled to make the difference. A Bus uses the same tires as trucks do, but are exempt from the tax. Many buses use the same engines as trucks do, but aren't subject to the 12% excise tax on all truck related parts. Batteries and brakes are also the same. My main complaint is that if trucks are to be subjected to all these taxes that others are exempt from, the money should be spent on highways that trucks use. Trucks aren't allowed on bicycle paths or airports runways. Personally? I'd like to see 9/10ths of the airline industry and 3/5ths of the trucking industry out of a job as quickly as the infrastructure can be altered without economic devastation. I am actively working on this myself, at least as far as local energy supplies are concerned. I think it is totally foolish to import nearly all of our energy, when we have so much available locally that is being disposed of. Which would also mean one hell of a lot of other alterations around the global economic for about 30 years. And it would get much of the decision making back to a local level instead of being mandated by people who are thoroughly ignorant of the details. Again...Sorry, but you won't find me too far out of synch with anything that promotes de-escalation of consumerism, excess consumption, rapid access, instant gratification and general radical transformation of the face, waters and air of this Eartheven if it means I won't be embroidering any more billboard caps for truckers and I have to start using home grown oil on the lap siding rather than imported Sherwin Williams from the nearest metro center. Which goes right back to my belief that goods should be produced and used locally, instead of being imported from out of state or internationally. My immediate personal focus is on local energy use. In my immediate local area, there is an abundance of wood products being burned or hauled away to rot in a pile, while we import Coal and Natural Gas for heat and electricity, and import foreign oil for transportation fuels. Ethanol and synthetic Diesel Fuel can be produced from this resource, along with electricity from byproduct steam and heat. Politics and Bureaucracy are currently preventing me from doing any of this commercially. I have a homebuilt prototype gasifier that I ran for a couple of hours last week on waste wood. I will run it on Peat this coming week if I have time. Current use is to heat the atmosphere. I can't get Permits to connect the output to the grid. I am looking for a small water-cooled Diesel (30-40 HP)to run a generator from the gasifier output. After optimization, I intend to connect to the grid without any permits, at least to reverse meter my electrical use. Excess heat from the engine coolant and exhaust will be used for water-heating. Personal finances don't allow for a greenhouse/fermentation facility just yet, but I will have an energy source avaiable for when that time comes. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Okay...Who's the jackal behind the curtain? was Fw:your subscribe request
Well then, never let it be said that the impossible can't occur!!! [chuckle...chuckle...chuckle, chuckle!!!] Just got a mirror image of the first message at 7:28 PM EST. If only all the other impossibilities of this world would magically appear as easily as this one, eh? Todd - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Okay...Who's the jackal behind the curtain? was Fw:your subscribe request Todd, that's impossible - Elsevier closed that list down because it was causing us this trouble and they couldn't figure why, it no longer exists. I'll forward this to them, see what they say. Damn. Keith It would seem that this gremlin has re-emerged after a week's dormancy. Seems that as soon as this terminal corresponds with either Yahoo Biodiesel, Biofuels-Biz or Biofuels that it re-emerges in full bloom. Somebody trying to say that I should have stayed on holiday? I'm not too inclined to believe that it's either random or automatic. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyris ListManager [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:12 PM Subject: Re: your subscribe request Re: your subscribe request subscribe Sorry, but the email address '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' is already a member of 'sdos-china'. Because you are already subscribed, Lyris ListManager did not subscribe you again. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
What? Me? Hostile? ROFFL...FROFFL... Don't take it too personally Motie. Just the older I get the less sypathies I have. Probably an ingrained response to seeing the remaining half of the pie getting divided into halves yet again too many times and seeing too many self interests jockeying for premium positions at a one lane starting gate. I think I've in part adopted the general position of the ground hog. I eat, sleep and wish to all the that is good that humans would stop screwing with all the good tall green stuff with their damned lawn mowers. Actually, not a whole lot of time sleeping and a boatload of time trying to keep people from mowing down all the good green stuff. Todd - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Todd, I'm detecting a hostile undertone that I don't quite understand the basis of. Is it my perception that is faulty? Exactly where is it that your trucker buds are getting bled dry and other consumers of road use fuel did not? It isn't only Truckers that are being bled, but they are specifically singled out for many other taxes that other users are exempt from besides fuel and registration. Tire taxes are one of them, and 12% excise tax on all parts is another. Car and Bus owners used to pay about $3 each Federal Excise tax on tires. Car owners are now exempt from the tire tax, while the tire tax for truckers was doubled to make the difference. A Bus uses the same tires as trucks do, but are exempt from the tax. Many buses use the same engines as trucks do, but aren't subject to the 12% excise tax on all truck related parts. Batteries and brakes are also the same. My main complaint is that if trucks are to be subjected to all these taxes that others are exempt from, the money should be spent on highways that trucks use. Trucks aren't allowed on bicycle paths or airports runways. Personally? I'd like to see 9/10ths of the airline industry and 3/5ths of the trucking industry out of a job as quickly as the infrastructure can be altered without economic devastation. I am actively working on this myself, at least as far as local energy supplies are concerned. I think it is totally foolish to import nearly all of our energy, when we have so much available locally that is being disposed of. Which would also mean one hell of a lot of other alterations around the global economic for about 30 years. And it would get much of the decision making back to a local level instead of being mandated by people who are thoroughly ignorant of the details. Again...Sorry, but you won't find me too far out of synch with anything that promotes de-escalation of consumerism, excess consumption, rapid access, instant gratification and general radical transformation of the face, waters and air of this Eartheven if it means I won't be embroidering any more billboard caps for truckers and I have to start using home grown oil on the lap siding rather than imported Sherwin Williams from the nearest metro center. Which goes right back to my belief that goods should be produced and used locally, instead of being imported from out of state or internationally. My immediate personal focus is on local energy use. In my immediate local area, there is an abundance of wood products being burned or hauled away to rot in a pile, while we import Coal and Natural Gas for heat and electricity, and import foreign oil for transportation fuels. Ethanol and synthetic Diesel Fuel can be produced from this resource, along with electricity from byproduct steam and heat. Politics and Bureaucracy are currently preventing me from doing any of this commercially. I have a homebuilt prototype gasifier that I ran for a couple of hours last week on waste wood. I will run it on Peat this coming week if I have time. Current use is to heat the atmosphere. I can't get Permits to connect the output to the grid. I am looking for a small water-cooled Diesel (30-40 HP)to run a generator from the gasifier output. After optimization, I intend to connect to the grid without any permits, at least to reverse meter my electrical use. Excess heat from the engine coolant and exhaust will be used for water-heating. Personal finances don't allow for a greenhouse/fermentation facility just yet, but I will have an energy source avaiable for when that time comes. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
[biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What? Me? Hostile? ROFFL...FROFFL... Don't take it too personally Motie. Just the older I get the less sypathies I have. Probably an ingrained response to seeing the remaining half of the pie getting divided into halves yet again too many times and seeing too many self interests jockeying for premium positions at a one lane starting gate. I think I've in part adopted the general position of the ground hog. I eat, sleep and wish to all the that is good that humans would stop screwing with all the good tall green stuff with their damned lawn mowers. Actually, not a whole lot of time sleeping and a boatload of time trying to keep people from mowing down all the good green stuff. Todd I'll put it down to my faulty perception then. I may be a little hypersensitive to excessive persecution. I realize this about myself, so I had to ask. Thanks for answering. Now, about that green grass I have several enzyme cultures I'm breeding/working on to ferment grass clippings to make enough Ethanol to run my lawn mower to produce MORE grass clippings. Maybe I should be working on breeding more woodchucks instead? Can I produce Methane from their droppings? Can they be trained to poop in a sample collection jar? LOL Motie I really do need a greenhouse for some of my experiments. Air quality in my office is sometimes.(less than desirable?) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Okay...Who's the jackal behind the curtain? was Fw:your subscribe request
Well then, never let it be said that the impossible can't occur!!! It's impossible to join a list that doesn't exist. Elsevier aren't cowboys, they wouldn't screw me around over this. Something else is clearly happening though. Did you try to unsub as instructed? To unsubscribe, send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please try that and let me know what happens, off-list I guess, then I'll have a full report to send to Elsevier. I think you're prolly right that it has something to do with the Biodiesel list, much more likely than this one or Biofuels-biz, which don't carry any attachments and no html, text-only - no piggyback for a virus. The Biodiesel list does allow html; most of the attachments are ad jpg's, they'll be in your mail folder somewhere rather than the attachments folder. Still, that's probably the source. Yahoo, by the way, is definitely spreading viruses. My ISP has rejected both a .BAT file and an .SCR file from them, and it's happened to other people too. Best Keith [chuckle...chuckle...chuckle, chuckle!!!] Just got a mirror image of the first message at 7:28 PM EST. If only all the other impossibilities of this world would magically appear as easily as this one, eh? Todd - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Okay...Who's the jackal behind the curtain? was Fw:your subscribe request Todd, that's impossible - Elsevier closed that list down because it was causing us this trouble and they couldn't figure why, it no longer exists. I'll forward this to them, see what they say. Damn. Keith It would seem that this gremlin has re-emerged after a week's dormancy. Seems that as soon as this terminal corresponds with either Yahoo Biodiesel, Biofuels-Biz or Biofuels that it re-emerges in full bloom. Somebody trying to say that I should have stayed on holiday? I'm not too inclined to believe that it's either random or automatic. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Lyris ListManager [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:12 PM Subject: Re: your subscribe request Re: your subscribe request subscribe Sorry, but the email address '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' is already a member of 'sdos-china'. Because you are already subscribed, Lyris ListManager did not subscribe you again. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
- Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 18:57 Subject: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks Can I produce Methane from their droppings? Yes. Can they be trained to poop in a sample collection jar? LOL We won't know until you try. ;-) Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:09:16PM -, motie_d wrote: Perhaps Sports Stadiums should be forced to raise ticket prices by $10 each for a couple of seasons to raise funds to build a new Stadium, Unfortunately, what seems to be happening more and more is the taxpayer is forced to pay for the new stadium (so the rich owners and rich players can get even richer) even if they detest the sports. It's fun to drive by the stadium and pray curses on the team tho. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 06:36:53PM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: Motie, How 'bout just makin' it simple for us poor knee jerk reactionaries whose knees don't work as fast as they used to? Exactly where is it that your trucker buds are getting bled dry and other consumers of road use fuel did not? Seems to me that the industry got off really light for half a century when diesel fuel was being sold for half the price of gasoline. Sure didn't hear any bitching then. Yes, and fuel cost is just an operating expense anyway, deductable from your income tax, so what's the problem? Personally? I'd like to see 9/10ths of the airline industry and 3/5ths of the trucking industry out of a job as quickly as the infrastructure can be altered without economic devastation. Which would also mean one hell of a lot of other alterations around the global economic for about 30 years. Hear, hear. One thing that really ticks me off is that the trains have been allowed to deteriorate so badly here that they are essentially unusable for commuting anymore. I live exactly 80 miles from both Milwauke and Madison, where the good jobs are -- if I could ride the train to work, I'd not mind at all commuting to either place, but no way can I handle driving that far. My dad used to ride the train 75 miles into Chicago every day. In fact, I'd really like to see private motor vehicles just banned from the city limits of every city, and only electric buses and minibus taxies allowed, plus HPVs. Electric delivery vehicles of some sort, I suppose. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks
That is such a scam. The politicians tried that in Hartford, CT. It got shot down and the NE Patriots tried to sue. Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | 203.324.4371 www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ - Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: EPA Ruling Backfires, Spurs Sales of Diesel Trucks On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 10:09:16PM -, motie_d wrote: Perhaps Sports Stadiums should be forced to raise ticket prices by $10 each for a couple of seasons to raise funds to build a new Stadium, Unfortunately, what seems to be happening more and more is the taxpayer is forced to pay for the new stadium (so the rich owners and rich players can get even richer) even if they detest the sports. It's fun to drive by the stadium and pray curses on the team tho. -- Harmon Seaver Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
