Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Todd- Past midnight here. Got to go to bed. I would like to continue this discussion with you tommorrow. In the mean time I would like you to consider a couple of factors at work here. There are no commercial biodiesel vendors in the state of Alabama or Georgia that I am aware of. Also once something has been established its much more difficult to prohibit. I appreciate your comments much and have learned some things already. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonable loophole in the matter, there remain several points of contention. For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the state or municipality is road tax exempt? Consider the EPA's definition of in commerce as being on-road use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the total time I have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that they are exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My question here is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel if they produce it themselves and use it to operate their own equipment? I make the assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be no hazardous by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open market are properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this matter? Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially. Bill C. .- Original Message
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
OTOH, I would hope that this would in no way discourage you and your group from trying. While I'm fully convinced that the NBDB and the EPA are a disgusting bunch of crooks (Audubon's connection notwithstanding, and I'm a long time Audubon member), that never means that people should give up trying to do what seems logical and right. And if it fails, then by all means publish that fact far and wide -- the more light that is shed on situations such as this, the greater chance of the problem being rectified. Perhaps it would even go so far as having Audubon publically denounce the EPA and the NBDB. On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 12:27:27AM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: Bill, While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonable loophole in the matter, there remain several points of contention. For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the state or municipality is road tax exempt? Consider the EPA's definition of in commerce as being on-road use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the total time I have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that they are exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My question here is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel if they produce it themselves and use it to operate their own equipment? I make the assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be no hazardous by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open market are properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this matter? Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
As Todd says, thinking on producing a small qty of BD free of taxes for our own use (also for cooperatives or comunities), we built a small pressurized reactor 200 L/batch. No washing needed. Carlos - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially. Bill C. .- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to accomodate micro-regional manufacture. Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. And it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they wanted to, as the general rule in this country is equal protection under the law. Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and persecution meaning that the rules are to be applied equally to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the proverbial pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be formulating a backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Ken others- First I would like to thank all of you for your help your prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe what I have in mind. One of the missions we would like to undertake is to demonstrate the effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and government. The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) is cheap here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a heat source when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv pipe grid using the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not along term solution but will do for now. After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to convince the City of Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced locally (not currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know other cities in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us (15,000). Most biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity production or individual and farm production. Once we have coverted our own city, we will try to convince other small communties in Alabama and eventually the South East to do the same. Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and their discouragement of small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this list. I am unfamiliar with this but don't doubt it. Ron Dodson (neat guy and a very creative thinker) is the head of Audubon International. That is the group
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Bill and Todd; Have you considered selling BioDiesel as a fuel additive only. Does this not exempt you from many of the troubling issues? snip Bill, While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonable loophole in the matter, there remain several points of contention. For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the state or municipality is road tax exempt? Consider the EPA's definition of in commerce as being on-road use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the total time I have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that they are exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My question here is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel if they produce it themselves and use it to operate their own equipment? I make the assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be no hazardous by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open market are properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this matter? Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially. Bill C. .- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to accomodate micro-regional manufacture. Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that certainly hasn't been
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
As Todd says, thinking on producing a small qty of BD free of taxes for our own use (also for cooperatives or comunities), we built a small pressurized reactor 200 L/batch. No washing needed. Carlos What would be the advantage over a batch-type processor anyone can make themselves for next to nothing? Why do you say no washing is needed? Washing is always needed. Am I right in assuming this processor is for virgin oil only, not WVO? If so, you should say so. And can it handle the acid-base process? Best Keith Addison Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Is that no washing needed based upon manufacturer's suggestion? Or no washing needed in order to meet ASTM or EU standard? Pardon the skepticism, but it sounds a bit like an over unity device. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Brawner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method As Todd says, thinking on producing a small qty of BD free of taxes for our own use (also for cooperatives or comunities), we built a small pressurized reactor 200 L/batch. No washing needed. Carlos - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially. Bill C. .- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to accomodate micro-regional manufacture. Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. And it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they wanted to, as the general rule in this country is equal protection under the law. Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and persecution meaning that the rules are to be applied equally to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the proverbial pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be formulating a backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Ken others- First I would like to thank all of you for your help your prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe what I have in mind. One of the missions we would like to undertake is to demonstrate the effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and government. The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) is cheap here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a heat source when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv pipe grid using the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not along term solution but will do for now. After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to convince the City of Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced locally (not currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know other cities in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us (15,000). Most biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity production
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Todd- I have considered your points of contention since last night and also did some research today. As to your first point, let me stress that this production is by the municipality strictly for use by the municipality within the limits of the municipality. No sale of product would ever transpire. I talked with people from USDOT, Alabama DOT and Alabama DOR. All said that they knew of no reason why we could not do this. I was unable to reach the regional person with the EPA. I don't quite understand your second point (thick headed) but this is what I think may apply. I believe that the intent of that language is to tax vehicles which could normally be expected to make regular use of state and federal roads. I certainly could be wrong about that, but again, none of the agencies I spoke with seemed to think it was a problem. The bit of reading I did on the regulations focused on the sale and distribution of fuel with no mention of production for in house use. Your third point is well made, however, I know something about these kinds of laws. They are in place to prevent government agencies from competeing with private businesses in the marketplace. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits these agencies from producing any type of goods or services for their own consumption. I don't pretend that local businesses who have enjoyed the business that they receive from the city will be glad. But, the goverment should do what is best for the public interest. Finally, the only thing I can say to the commercial biodiesel producer is that there is no profit involved. Taxes paid by the government to the government is trading paper and thus inefficient. Also those taxes will come out of the public coffers. I am pretty sure that at least the public will support this idea. Much easier to get public support in a small community. I understand your frustration with lawyers and bureaucrats getting their 2 cents in (or out), but I can't let that deter me in this attempt. Maybe someone in the right place will do the right thing. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonableo loophole in the matter, there remain several points of contention. For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the state or municipality is road tax exempt? Consider the EPA's definition of in commerce as being on-road use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the total time I have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that they are exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My question here is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel if they produce it themselves and use it to operate their own equipment? I make the assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be no hazardous by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open market are properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this matter? Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Bill, Okay. So the municipality registers their home brew with the EPA. What are they going to register it as? Are government agencies somehow exempt from Tier I and or Tier II Health Affects studies? If not, are they going to conduct them out of pocket? If they are exempt it would come as an eye opener. Imagine a tractor trailer running on fuel that has to meet EPA Health Affects requirements, side by side on the interstate with a city or state DOT truck whose fuel doesen't have to meet any Health Affects requirements. That should seem pretty fishy to just about anyone and bit unrealistic. So then what? Does the municipality or state shell out the membership and production fees to the NBB in order to gain access to the Health Affects data? Or does the NBB wave membership and production fees for city, state and federal governments? Which brings to question, What is the feedstock being used by the government producer? If it's not soybean oil, which it almost certainly wouldn't be, you're not going to find too many of the NBB soy oriented voting members too terribly pleased about the idea of waving fees. Who knows. Perhaps this exemption has already been constructed by those who originally worked with the EPA on the Health Affects access issue. Or maybe not. Then there's the matter of the government producer mandatorily meeting ASTM spec. Does a government agency get to put less than ASTM spec fuel in fuel tanks which the public owns? I doubt it. And then what does the government do if they find out that they have too much fuel for their own use as a result of too much feedstock being available? Do they only service select restaurants? There goes a bias or favoritism charge before city council before you can blink. And what of the waste hauler who now is losing clientele to the government? There's a competion complaint before the first drop is poured. Seems like there are several months of legal wrangling that you're going to have to go through before you get one step beyond concept and into the construction phase. In the interim? Start prototyping an ASTM spec process that is easily sizeable to any given need. Hopefully that will be ready somewhere along the same time frame that all the attornies get done playing with the matter. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I have considered your points of contention since last night and also did some research today. As to your first point, let me stress that this production is by the municipality strictly for use by the municipality within the limits of the municipality. No sale of product would ever transpire. I talked with people from USDOT, Alabama DOT and Alabama DOR. All said that they knew of no reason why we could not do this. I was unable to reach the regional person with the EPA. I don't quite understand your second point (thick headed) but this is what I think may apply. I believe that the intent of that language is to tax vehicles which could normally be expected to make regular use of state and federal roads. I certainly could be wrong about that, but again, none of the agencies I spoke with seemed to think it was a problem. The bit of reading I did on the regulations focused on the sale and distribution of fuel with no mention of production for in house use. Your third point is well made, however, I know something about these kinds of laws. They are in place to prevent government agencies from competeing with private businesses in the marketplace. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits these agencies from producing any type of goods or services for their own consumption. I don't pretend that local businesses who have enjoyed the business that they receive from the city will be glad. But, the goverment should do what is best for the public interest. Finally, the only thing I can say to the commercial biodiesel producer is that there is no profit involved. Taxes paid by the government to the government is trading paper and thus inefficient. Also those taxes will come out of the public coffers. I am pretty sure that at least the public will support this idea. Much easier to get public support in a small community. I understand your frustration with lawyers and bureaucrats getting their 2 cents in (or out), but I can't let that deter me in this attempt. Maybe someone in the right place will do the right thing. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonableo loophole in the matter, there remain several points of contention. For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Todd- Certainly the fuel will have to meet ASTM standards. This will require some fine tuning of the process but I believe that is achievable. Others in this group may have some input on that matter. I still question whether fuel produced not for sale will be required to be registered with the EPA. I am unfamiliar with Tier I Tier II Health Affects studies. If this is the same as Material Safety Data Sheets I think that again is an issue concerning the sale of product. Of course we will have to make sure that the product is safe. Certainly it will be safer than petrodiesel. In my opinion, for what it is worth, this whole issue rests on the lynchpin of sales of product. Since we will be using WVO, I doubt that over supply will ever be an issue here. Perhaps in other places it will be. In my local research, the amount of WVO available from restaurants is approximately 70% of the amount of diesel being consumed by city government. Could change, I don't think so. As for the waste hauler, you may have a point. That could perhaps be construed as a competitive intrusion into the marketplace by a government entity. On the other hand, this is a waste recycling issue and there are ample illustrations of goverment competing in this area. Garbage collection is one that comes to mind. In Eufaula, there is municipal and private company collection. I know this to be true in many areas. Thanks for staying with me on this. You ask hard questions (the best kind) and I will need to cover my bases on this. Much still to find out. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, Okay. So the municipality registers their home brew with the EPA. What are they going to register it as? Are government agencies somehow exempt from Tier I and or Tier II Health Affects studies? If not, are they going to conduct them out of pocket? If they are exempt it would come as an eye opener. Imagine a tractor trailer running on fuel that has to meet EPA Health Affects requirements, side by side on the interstate with a city or state DOT truck whose fuel doesen't have to meet any Health Affects requirements. That should seem pretty fishy to just about anyone and bit unrealistic. So then what? Does the municipality or state shell out the membership and production fees to the NBB in order to gain access to the Health Affects data? Or does the NBB wave membership and production fees for city, state and federal governments? Which brings to question, What is the feedstock being used by the government producer? If it's not soybean oil, which it almost certainly wouldn't be, you're not going to find too many of the NBB soy oriented voting members too terribly pleased about the idea of waving fees. Who knows. Perhaps this exemption has already been constructed by those who originally worked with the EPA on the Health Affects access issue. Or maybe not. Then there's the matter of the government producer mandatorily meeting ASTM spec. Does a government agency get to put less than ASTM spec fuel in fuel tanks which the public owns? I doubt it. And then what does the government do if they find out that they have too much fuel for their own use as a result of too much feedstock being available? Do they only service select restaurants? There goes a bias or favoritism charge before city council before you can blink. And what of the waste hauler who now is losing clientele to the government? There's a competion complaint before the first drop is poured. Seems like there are several months of legal wrangling that you're going to have to go through before you get one step beyond concept and into the construction phase. In the interim? Start prototyping an ASTM spec process that is easily sizeable to any given need. Hopefully that will be ready somewhere along the same time frame that all the attornies get done playing with the matter. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I have considered your points of contention since last night and also did some research today. As to your first point, let me stress that this production is by the municipality strictly for use by the municipality within the limits of the municipality. No sale of product would ever transpire. I talked with people from USDOT, Alabama DOT and Alabama DOR. All said that they knew of no reason why we could not do this. I was unable to reach the regional person with the EPA. I don't quite understand your second point (thick headed) but this is what I think may apply. I believe that the intent of that language is to tax vehicles which could normally be expected to make regular use
[biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Next question. What problems might I encounter using anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a reactant in this process? Bill C. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Next question. What problems might I encounter using anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a reactant in this process? I believe the first step involves mostly esterification but also some transesterification. I don't know how much you're relying on the glycerine to fall out of the reaction, but it won't leave the solution as readily or as completely when ethanol is used. Also, you have to use more ethanol, of course, since the molecular weight is greater than for methanol (ratio 46 to 32). If you want to continue with ethanol in the 2nd step, which is PURELY transesterification, the problem with the glycerine failing to separate from the biodiesel can become quite bothersome, particularly with any water in there, or free fatty acids above 1%. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Ken others- First I would like to thank all of you for your help your prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe what I have in mind. One of the missions we would like to undertake is to demonstrate the effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and government. The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) is cheap here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a heat source when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv pipe grid using the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not along term solution but will do for now. After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to convince the City of Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced locally (not currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know other cities in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us (15,000). Most biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity production or individual and farm production. Once we have coverted our own city, we will try to convince other small communties in Alabama and eventually the South East to do the same. Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and their discouragement of small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this list. I am unfamiliar with this but don't doubt it. Ron Dodson (neat guy and a very creative thinker) is the head of Audubon International. That is the group we are doing this with. Ron also sits on the National Biodiesel Board. We can probably get some support for this idea through him. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Next question. What problems might I encounter using anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a reactant in this process? I believe the first step involves mostly esterification but also some transesterification. I don't know how much you're relying on the glycerine to fall out of the reaction, but it won't leave the solution as readily or as completely when ethanol is used. Also, you have to use more ethanol, of course, since the molecular weight is greater than for methanol (ratio 46 to 32). If you want to continue with ethanol in the 2nd step, which is PURELY transesterification, the problem with the glycerine failing to separate from the biodiesel can become quite bothersome, particularly with any water in there, or free fatty acids above 1%. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
We just heat it in the translucent polyjugs that the cooking oil is supplied to the restaurants in. A few hours in the sun on a hot day, and it is hot enough to filter. They're like little greenhouses. ;-) Good luck, keep us posted, we have been promoting the same idea around here to the recycling councils, etc. Regards, Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca on 6/10/02 6:09 PM, William Clark at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken others- First I would like to thank all of you for your help your prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe what I have in mind. One of the missions we would like to undertake is to demonstrate the effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and government. The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) is cheap here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a heat source when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv pipe grid using the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not along term solution but will do for now. After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to convince the City of Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced locally (not currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know other cities in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us (15,000). Most biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity production or individual and farm production. Once we have coverted our own city, we will try to convince other small communties in Alabama and eventually the South East to do the same. Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and their discouragement of small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this list. I am unfamiliar with this but don't doubt it. Ron Dodson (neat guy and a very creative thinker) is the head of Audubon International. That is the group we are doing this with. Ron also sits on the National Biodiesel Board. We can probably get some support for this idea through him. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Next question. What problems might I encounter using anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a reactant in this process? I believe the first step involves mostly esterification but also some transesterification. I don't know how much you're relying on the glycerine to fall out of the reaction, but it won't leave the solution as readily or as completely when ethanol is used. Also, you have to use more ethanol, of course, since the molecular weight is greater than for methanol (ratio 46 to 32). If you want to continue with ethanol in the 2nd step, which is PURELY transesterification, the problem with the glycerine failing to separate from the biodiesel can become quite bothersome, particularly with any water in there, or free fatty acids above 1%. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to accomodate micro-regional manufacture. Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. And it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they wanted to, as the general rule in this country is equal protection under the law. Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and persecution meaning that the rules are to be applied equally to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the proverbial pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be formulating a backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Ken others- First I would like to thank all of you for your help your prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe what I have in mind. One of the missions we would like to undertake is to demonstrate the effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and government. The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) is cheap here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a heat source when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv pipe grid using the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not along term solution but will do for now. After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to convince the City of Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced locally (not currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know other cities in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us (15,000). Most biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity production or individual and farm production. Once we have coverted our own city, we will try to convince other small communties in Alabama and eventually the South East to do the same. Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and their discouragement of small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this list. I am unfamiliar with this but don't doubt it. Ron Dodson (neat guy and a very creative thinker) is the head of Audubon International. That is the group we are doing this with. Ron also sits on the National Biodiesel Board. We can probably get some support for this idea through him. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Next question. What problems might I encounter using anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a reactant in this process? I believe the first step involves mostly esterification but also some transesterification. I don't know how much you're relying on the glycerine to fall out of the reaction, but it won't leave the solution as readily or as completely when ethanol is used. Also, you have to use more ethanol, of course, since the molecular weight is greater than for methanol (ratio 46 to 32). If you want to continue with ethanol in the 2nd step, which is PURELY transesterification, the problem with the glycerine failing to separate from the biodiesel can become quite bothersome, particularly with any water in there, or free fatty acids above 1%. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially. Bill C. .- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to accomodate micro-regional manufacture. Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. And it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they wanted to, as the general rule in this country is equal protection under the law. Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and persecution meaning that the rules are to be applied equally to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the proverbial pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be formulating a backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Ken others- First I would like to thank all of you for your help your prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe what I have in mind. One of the missions we would like to undertake is to demonstrate the effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and government. The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) is cheap here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a heat source when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv pipe grid using the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not along term solution but will do for now. After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to convince the City of Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced locally (not currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know other cities in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us (15,000). Most biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity production or individual and farm production. Once we have coverted our own city, we will try to convince other small communties in Alabama and eventually the South East to do the same. Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and their discouragement of small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this list. I am unfamiliar with this but don't doubt it. Ron Dodson (neat guy and a very creative thinker) is the head of Audubon International. That is the group we are doing this with. Ron also sits on the National Biodiesel Board. We can probably get some support for this idea through him. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Next question. What problems might I encounter using anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a reactant in this process? I believe the first step involves mostly esterification but also some transesterification. I don't know how much you're relying on the glycerine to fall out of the reaction, but it won't leave the solution as readily or as completely when ethanol is used. Also, you have to use more ethanol, of course, since the molecular weight is greater than for methanol (ratio 46 to 32). If you want to continue with ethanol in the 2nd step, which is PURELY transesterification, the problem with the glycerine failing to separate from the biodiesel can become quite bothersome, particularly with any water in there, or free fatty acids above 1%. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially. Bill C. .- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to accomodate micro-regional manufacture. Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. And it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they wanted to, as the general rule in this country is equal protection under the law. Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and persecution meaning that the rules are to be applied equally to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the proverbial pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be formulating a backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Ken others- First I would like to thank all of you for your help your prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe what I have in mind. One of the missions we would like to undertake is to demonstrate the effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and government. The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) is cheap here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a heat source when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv pipe grid using the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not along term solution but will do for now. After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to convince the City of Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced locally (not currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know other cities in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us (15,000). Most biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity production or individual and farm production. Once we have coverted our own city, we will try to convince other small communties in Alabama and eventually the South East to do the same. Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and their discouragement of small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this list. I am unfamiliar with this but don't doubt it. Ron Dodson (neat guy and a very creative thinker) is the head of Audubon International. That is the group we are doing this with. Ron also sits on the National Biodiesel Board. We can probably get some support for this idea through him. Bill C. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Next question. What problems might I encounter using anhydrous ethanol as opposed to methanol as a reactant in this process? I believe the first step involves mostly esterification but also some transesterification. I don't know how much you're relying
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the total time I have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that they are exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My question here is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel if they produce it themselves and use it to operate their own equipment? I make the assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be no hazardous by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open market are properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this matter? Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially. Bill C. .- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to accomodate micro-regional manufacture. Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. And it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they wanted to, as the general rule in this country is equal protection under the law. Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and persecution meaning that the rules are to be applied equally to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the proverbial pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be formulating a backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Ken others- First I would like to thank all of you for your help your prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe what I have in mind. One of the missions we would like to undertake is to demonstrate the effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and government. The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) is cheap here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a heat source when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv pipe grid using the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not along term solution but will do for now. After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to convince the City of Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced locally (not currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know other cities in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us (15,000). Most biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity production or individual and farm production. Once we have coverted our own city, we will try to convince other small communties in Alabama and eventually the South East to do the same. Somebody recently made
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Bill, While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonable loophole in the matter, there remain several points of contention. For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the state or municipality is road tax exempt? Consider the EPA's definition of in commerce as being on-road use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the total time I have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that they are exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My question here is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel if they produce it themselves and use it to operate their own equipment? I make the assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be no hazardous by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open market are properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this matter? Bill C. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own fuel, not produce commercially. Bill C. .- Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to accomodate micro-regional manufacture. Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. And it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they wanted to, as the general rule in this country is equal protection under the law. Which also means
