Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
hmm, i don't know ammonia in gaseous form as a fertilizer (i guess i should add here the disclaimer that i'm barely even qualified to speak the word chemistry), unless something like bo peep ammonia is considered a gaseous form of ammonia, merely trapped in a solution. but there is an ammonia-based fertilizing product known as 'formolene', amongst other trade names; basically used as a slow-release nitrogen. slightly viscous; sort of oily in texture; stinks to high heaven. comes in 55 gallon barrels, and has about a 30% ammonia content iirc. i'm sure it's not less could it be higher? been about a year since i've had cause to use the stuff and i'm already forgetting; maybe i was around those fumes too long! cheers, -chris In a message dated 6/6/05 11:11:54 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My mother in law keeps telling me I need to be careful about what I say around here, lest certain men in suits come looking for me with an extradition order . . . (U.S. citizens aren't supposed to go to Cuba.) Ammonia in gaseous form can be purchased from any welding supplier, or can be bought as ammonium hydrate, which I believe is a garden variety fertilizer. I think the Home Power article discussed using ammonium hydrate. It wouldn't be practical to have a big, off axis parabolic trough on my property, but that handy little gasifier I have could be scaled up. Hmmm. . . ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Robert, did you mean ammonium _nitrate_ not hydrate? ammonium nitrate is a standard fertilizer, but also is the stuff used by McVay to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City a few years back, therefore purchases of large amounts of the stuff is quite suspect! Also farmers use large amount of anhydrous ammonia released from pressurized tanks and injected directly into the soil. And another aside, anhydrous ammonia is regularly stolen by those who want to illegally manufacture methamphetamine. robert luis rabello wrote: Keith Addison wrote: Does that mean you could just pee in it? LOL! Perhaps we could develop a urine distillation unit to remove nitrogen and make our own NH3 with the help of a small scale electrolyzer. . . The barn litter I use for my garden off gases a LOT of ammonia when it's fresh. If I could figure out how to collect it, I'd have ammonia for free! Well, at least it's a sustainable and renewable source. If you go out trying to buy loads of ammonia isn't there a fair chance you might end up in Gitmo? My mother in law keeps telling me I need to be careful about what I say around here, lest certain men in suits come looking for me with an extradition order . . . (U.S. citizens aren't supposed to go to Cuba.) Ammonia in gaseous form can be purchased from any welding supplier, or can be bought as ammonium hydrate, which I believe is a garden variety fertilizer. I think the Home Power article discussed using ammonium hydrate. It wouldn't be practical to have a big, off axis parabolic trough on my property, but that handy little gasifier I have could be scaled up. Hmmm. . . That's okay, but I stop somewhere short of pressure pumps and vacuum pumps. The need for a pressure vessel complicates things. I've been looking into destructive biomass distillation to generate methane gas for some time. Our house is heated with natural gas, and it sure would be nice to fire that little boiler of ours (34 000 btu!) with bio methane. In addition, a gas fuel conversion to my truck is well within my mechanical capabilities, and the machine is already supercharged. (Gas fuel would require me to bump up the boost somewhat, but that's NOT a problem!) I only need about 200 km of range anyway. We had one of those at our farm in Wiltshire years ago, we wondered why everyone didn't have one. It didn't have a solar access tracker, but it didn't use much power, and it was quiet. Can you tell us more about that? I think you're onto something Robert. As long as I'm not ON something. . . I can think of many ways to integrate energy production / usage. I have information about innovative solar heat storage, heliostats, trough and fresnel concentrators, plasma reformers, anaerobic methane digestion, AFEX, ethanol distillation, wood gasification, electrolysis and biological production of hydrogen, steam power and organic rankine cycle engines that have never been put into practice, except for the steam, which I did as a project with my students many years ago. Much of this requires time (which I have right now) and money (which I don't), so nothing gets done. This all sounds doable, sort of, and AFAIK, short of industrial megabucks or nonavailable tailored bugs the only other doable way of crunching cellulose into ethanol is with sulphuric acid, which seems crude by comparison. In my case, because I'm living in Canada, distilling ethanol remains out of the question. It's simply not legal for an individual, and since I'm a guest in this country, I don't want to make a fuss about such a silly regulation. However, the AFEX process has an elegance about it that cannot be ignored. It can probably be done quite nicely on a small scale. The only trouble I see is that we're still stuck using cellulase, which has to be regularly bought from a chemical supply house (and isn't cheap), unless a clever person could find a way to culture trichoderma reesei and extract the enzyme from those marvelous little bacteria! If you do unearth them eventually, if you send me the citations I might be able to get hold of better copies we could use. I've been looking, but I can't find them! A Google search of afex + ammonia reveals some hits. The paper you linked is dated Appl Biochem Biotechnol. 2005 Spring: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=pubmedd opt=Abstractlist_uids=15930586itool=iconabstrquery_hl=2 Pretreatment of Switchgrass by Ammonia Fiber Explosion (AFEX) Would a full copy be helpful? Yes! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
bob allen wrote: Robert, did you mean ammonium _nitrate_ not hydrate? ammonium nitrate is a standard fertilizer, but also is the stuff used by McVay to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City a few years back, therefore purchases of large amounts of the stuff is quite suspect! I defer to your higher grasp of the subject. I was thinking of the type of ammonia available in the hardware store when I was writing this. It's partly ammonia and mostly water. Thank you for clearing up my confusion. Also farmers use large amount of anhydrous ammonia released from pressurized tanks and injected directly into the soil. And another aside, anhydrous ammonia is regularly stolen by those who want to illegally manufacture methamphetamine. When I was in college, I made a fluidyne water pump out of pipe that my neighbors SWORE was an ethanol still. Campus security visited my apartment, then left, snickering and shaking their heads. I can imagine trying to explain to the RCMP that my home built AFEX unit has nothing to do with methamphetamine . . . :- ) robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Hi Robert Keith Addison wrote: Could the resulting, simpler sugars also be worked on by yeast to produce fuel ethanol? Yes. That was, in fact, the intent of the research. I believe I may have left out a step, as enzymatic treatment appears necessary. (I shouldn't be quoting without verifying facts, right?) Here's a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=pubmed; dopt=Abstractlist_uids=15930586itool=iconabstrquery_hl=2 Thankyou. Interesting. It uses a lot of ammonia. Do you get it back for re-use? It doesn't say anything about pressure, only heat. That's encouraging, if I've got it right (pressure is discouraging, IMHO). Do you have the complete paper? Gosh! I'm awed! Nice to read, thanks! You're welcome, but why be awed? I'd written nothing you wouldn't find in a good high school level biology text. You might Robert, but I wouldn't, or at least I didn't. I didn't encounter anything like that in school (primitive). I've learnt quite a lot of biology since, or how to apply it anyway, but this was clearly put, I learnt something more, thankyou. Robert for King! One of us had better stop before I get a swelled head . . . :-) It shall be as you decree Sire. Regards Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Keith Addison wrote: Thankyou. Interesting. It uses a lot of ammonia. Do you get it back for re-use? Yes. Once the ball valve opens, the vaporized ammonia flashes into another container where it is condensed for re-use. It doesn't say anything about pressure, only heat. That's encouraging, if I've got it right (pressure is discouraging, IMHO). Adding heat increases pressure, so it has to be done in a pressure vessel of some sort. There was an ammonia based refrigeration unit powered by an off axis solar tracker in Home Power magazine many years ago. It produced pressure in excess of 100 psi (I think. . . Oh, where ARE those brain cells???) during its operation, and I thought it would make an excellent unit for the AFEX process. Combined, it could produce ice and subsequent to enzymatic treatment, feedstock for fermentation and ethanol fuel. Do you have the complete paper? Yes, there are two papers buried somewhere in my files. They were rather poor quality photocopies given to me by Roy McAlister of the American Hydrogen Association. That seems like a lifetime ago already. (Any time before I had children seems like a lifetime ago!) You might Robert, but I wouldn't, or at least I didn't. I didn't encounter anything like that in school (primitive). I've learnt quite a lot of biology since, or how to apply it anyway, but this was clearly put, I learnt something more, thankyou. You're welcome, Keith. I'm glad to contribute something of substance now and then. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Bug Power
The best way to reduce pressures in the reboilers and degasser is to use sulfuric acid. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert luis rabello Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 7:59 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power Keith Addison wrote: Thankyou. Interesting. It uses a lot of ammonia. Do you get it back for re-use? Yes. Once the ball valve opens, the vaporized ammonia flashes into another container where it is condensed for re-use. It doesn't say anything about pressure, only heat. That's encouraging, if I've got it right (pressure is discouraging, IMHO). Adding heat increases pressure, so it has to be done in a pressure vessel of some sort. There was an ammonia based refrigeration unit powered by an off axis solar tracker in Home Power magazine many years ago. It produced pressure in excess of 100 psi (I think. . . Oh, where ARE those brain cells???) during its operation, and I thought it would make an excellent unit for the AFEX process. Combined, it could produce ice and subsequent to enzymatic treatment, feedstock for fermentation and ethanol fuel. Do you have the complete paper? Yes, there are two papers buried somewhere in my files. They were rather poor quality photocopies given to me by Roy McAlister of the American Hydrogen Association. That seems like a lifetime ago already. (Any time before I had children seems like a lifetime ago!) You might Robert, but I wouldn't, or at least I didn't. I didn't encounter anything like that in school (primitive). I've learnt quite a lot of biology since, or how to apply it anyway, but this was clearly put, I learnt something more, thankyou. You're welcome, Keith. I'm glad to contribute something of substance now and then. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.4 - Release Date: 6/6/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
robert luis rabello wrote: Keith Addison wrote: snip There was an ammonia based refrigeration unit powered by an off axis solar tracker in Home Power magazine many years ago. It produced pressure in excess of 100 psi (I think. . . Oh, where ARE those brain cells???) during its operation, and I thought it would make an excellent unit for the AFEX process. Combined, it could produce ice and subsequent to enzymatic treatment, feedstock for fermentation and ethanol fuel. I've found that page in the past, and saved a pdf file of it. Uploaded it to: http://databrook.com/users/dcs3400/solarice.pdf I believe it is what you are referring to. doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
des wrote: I've found that page in the past, and saved a pdf file of it. Uploaded it to: http://databrook.com/users/dcs3400/solarice.pdf I believe it is what you are referring to. Yes, that's the ammonia absorption ice making unit. Thanks! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Keith Addison wrote: Thankyou. Interesting. It uses a lot of ammonia. Do you get it back for re-use? Yes. Once the ball valve opens, the vaporized ammonia flashes into another container where it is condensed for re-use. Does that mean you could just pee in it? LOL! Well, at least it's a sustainable and renewable source. If you go out trying to buy loads of ammonia isn't there a fair chance you might end up in Gitmo? It doesn't say anything about pressure, only heat. That's encouraging, if I've got it right (pressure is discouraging, IMHO). Adding heat increases pressure, so it has to be done in a pressure vessel of some sort. That's okay, but I stop somewhere short of pressure pumps and vacuum pumps. There was an ammonia based refrigeration unit powered by an off axis solar tracker in Home Power magazine many years ago. We had one of those at our farm in Wiltshire years ago, we wondered why everyone didn't have one. It didn't have a solar access tracker, but it didn't use much power, and it was quiet. It produced pressure in excess of 100 psi (I think. . . Oh, where ARE those brain cells???) during its operation, and I thought it would make an excellent unit for the AFEX process. Combined, it could produce ice and subsequent to enzymatic treatment, feedstock for fermentation and ethanol fuel. I think you're onto something Robert. This all sounds doable, sort of, and AFAIK, short of industrial megabucks or nonavailable tailored bugs the only other doable way of crunching cellulose into ethanol is with sulphuric acid, which seems crude by comparison. Do you have the complete paper? Yes, there are two papers buried somewhere in my files. Ah. Hm. I also have paper files still, quite a few of them, anything that's in there is pretty much buried, and no Google. You can't grep dead trees. They were rather poor quality photocopies given to me by Roy McAlister of the American Hydrogen Association. If you do unearth them eventually, if you send me the citations I might be able to get hold of better copies we could use. The paper you linked is dated Appl Biochem Biotechnol. 2005 Spring: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=pubmedd opt=Abstractlist_uids=15930586itool=iconabstrquery_hl=2 Pretreatment of Switchgrass by Ammonia Fiber Explosion (AFEX) Would a full copy be helpful? That seems like a lifetime ago already. (Any time before I had children seems like a lifetime ago!) :-) You might Robert, but I wouldn't, or at least I didn't. I didn't encounter anything like that in school (primitive). I've learnt quite a lot of biology since, or how to apply it anyway, but this was clearly put, I learnt something more, thankyou. You're welcome, Keith. I'm glad to contribute something of substance now and then. Thanks again Robert. Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Keith Addison wrote: Does that mean you could just pee in it? LOL! Perhaps we could develop a urine distillation unit to remove nitrogen and make our own NH3 with the help of a small scale electrolyzer. . . The barn litter I use for my garden off gases a LOT of ammonia when it's fresh. If I could figure out how to collect it, I'd have ammonia for free! Well, at least it's a sustainable and renewable source. If you go out trying to buy loads of ammonia isn't there a fair chance you might end up in Gitmo? My mother in law keeps telling me I need to be careful about what I say around here, lest certain men in suits come looking for me with an extradition order . . . (U.S. citizens aren't supposed to go to Cuba.) Ammonia in gaseous form can be purchased from any welding supplier, or can be bought as ammonium hydrate, which I believe is a garden variety fertilizer. I think the Home Power article discussed using ammonium hydrate. It wouldn't be practical to have a big, off axis parabolic trough on my property, but that handy little gasifier I have could be scaled up. Hmmm. . . That's okay, but I stop somewhere short of pressure pumps and vacuum pumps. The need for a pressure vessel complicates things. I've been looking into destructive biomass distillation to generate methane gas for some time. Our house is heated with natural gas, and it sure would be nice to fire that little boiler of ours (34 000 btu!) with bio methane. In addition, a gas fuel conversion to my truck is well within my mechanical capabilities, and the machine is already supercharged. (Gas fuel would require me to bump up the boost somewhat, but that's NOT a problem!) I only need about 200 km of range anyway. We had one of those at our farm in Wiltshire years ago, we wondered why everyone didn't have one. It didn't have a solar access tracker, but it didn't use much power, and it was quiet. Can you tell us more about that? I think you're onto something Robert. As long as I'm not ON something. . . I can think of many ways to integrate energy production / usage. I have information about innovative solar heat storage, heliostats, trough and fresnel concentrators, plasma reformers, anaerobic methane digestion, AFEX, ethanol distillation, wood gasification, electrolysis and biological production of hydrogen, steam power and organic rankine cycle engines that have never been put into practice, except for the steam, which I did as a project with my students many years ago. Much of this requires time (which I have right now) and money (which I don't), so nothing gets done. This all sounds doable, sort of, and AFAIK, short of industrial megabucks or nonavailable tailored bugs the only other doable way of crunching cellulose into ethanol is with sulphuric acid, which seems crude by comparison. In my case, because I'm living in Canada, distilling ethanol remains out of the question. It's simply not legal for an individual, and since I'm a guest in this country, I don't want to make a fuss about such a silly regulation. However, the AFEX process has an elegance about it that cannot be ignored. It can probably be done quite nicely on a small scale. The only trouble I see is that we're still stuck using cellulase, which has to be regularly bought from a chemical supply house (and isn't cheap), unless a clever person could find a way to culture trichoderma reesei and extract the enzyme from those marvelous little bacteria! If you do unearth them eventually, if you send me the citations I might be able to get hold of better copies we could use. I've been looking, but I can't find them! A Google search of afex + ammonia reveals some hits. The paper you linked is dated Appl Biochem Biotechnol. 2005 Spring: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=pubmedd opt=Abstractlist_uids=15930586itool=iconabstrquery_hl=2 Pretreatment of Switchgrass by Ammonia Fiber Explosion (AFEX) Would a full copy be helpful? Yes! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Keith Addison wrote: Both are carbohydrates. Cellulose is a carbohydrate too, but separating it from its lignin binder is not an easy task. Acid hydrolysis is the most common method at this point, but I have papers buried in my files concerning an ammonia / pressure process that broke lignin bonds, cellulose and hemicellulose so that the resulting, simpler sugars could be worked on by bacteria to produce hydrogen gas. I researched this process as a potential method of hydrogen production while I was more enthusiastic about hydrogen as an energy carrier than is characteristic of my belief today. In essence, the ammonia process involved a pressure tank loaded with cellulose rich material (straw, for instance) that was filled with ammonia and allowed to heat up until the pressure reached a certain point (the value escapes me, sorry!) for about fifteen minutes. Ammonia apparently penetrates lignin and plant sugars under pressure, and when the pressure is suddenly released (by opening a ball valve) the ammonia flashes from a liquid to a gas, and in doing so, bursts the lignin and cellulose bonds. This is a procedure that could utilize solar heat energy and might have been cheaper than acid hydrolysis under the right circumstances. However, aside from the two papers I read on the subject some years ago, I've never heard of it again. Robert, are bacteria creatures or plants? Microflora they say. (Not that plants aren't creatures.) The division may be arbitrary, but prokaryote cells do not contain membrane bound organelles, such as a nucleus, golgi apparatus and mitochondria. They are generally considered an older form of life than eukaryotic cells that evolutionary biologists believe evolved from them. Eukaryotic cells also differ in that they contain 80 S cytoplasmic ribosomes, organelles responsible for protein synthesis. A prokayotic cell will not have a nucleus, so its DNA remains exposed within the cell. Some species, anoxygenic photosynthetic bacteria, can grow as photoheterotrophs, photoautotrophs or chemoheterotrophs depending on the environment that surrounds them. They are very amazing creatures! Amazing, yes. Not much is known about them. Most of the microbugs working away in a good compost pile (maybe 25,000 different types) haven't been identified yet, let alone their capabilities. IMO there's more and better to be gained via such research than nonsense like Big M's pesticide-resistant soybeans, eg. If I were in charge, things would be different. . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Hi Robert Keith Addison wrote: Both are carbohydrates. Cellulose is a carbohydrate too, but separating it from its lignin binder is not an easy task. Acid hydrolysis is the most common method at this point, but I have papers buried in my files concerning an ammonia / pressure process that broke lignin bonds, cellulose and hemicellulose so that the resulting, simpler sugars could be worked on by bacteria to produce hydrogen gas. I researched this process as a potential method of hydrogen production while I was more enthusiastic about hydrogen as an energy carrier than is characteristic of my belief today. In essence, the ammonia process involved a pressure tank loaded with cellulose rich material (straw, for instance) that was filled with ammonia and allowed to heat up until the pressure reached a certain point (the value escapes me, sorry!) for about fifteen minutes. Ammonia apparently penetrates lignin and plant sugars under pressure, and when the pressure is suddenly released (by opening a ball valve) the ammonia flashes from a liquid to a gas, and in doing so, bursts the lignin and cellulose bonds. This is a procedure that could utilize solar heat energy and might have been cheaper than acid hydrolysis under the right circumstances. However, aside from the two papers I read on the subject some years ago, I've never heard of it again. Could the resulting, simpler sugars also be worked on by yeast to produce fuel ethanol? Robert, are bacteria creatures or plants? Microflora they say. (Not that plants aren't creatures.) The division may be arbitrary, but prokaryote cells do not contain membrane bound organelles, such as a nucleus, golgi apparatus and mitochondria. They are generally considered an older form of life than eukaryotic cells that evolutionary biologists believe evolved from them. Eukaryotic cells also differ in that they contain 80 S cytoplasmic ribosomes, organelles responsible for protein synthesis. A prokayotic cell will not have a nucleus, so its DNA remains exposed within the cell. Some species, anoxygenic photosynthetic bacteria, can grow as photoheterotrophs, photoautotrophs or chemoheterotrophs depending on the environment that surrounds them. They are very amazing creatures! Gosh! I'm awed! Nice to read, thanks! Amazing, yes. Not much is known about them. Most of the microbugs working away in a good compost pile (maybe 25,000 different types) haven't been identified yet, let alone their capabilities. IMO there's more and better to be gained via such research than nonsense like Big M's pesticide-resistant soybeans, eg. If I were in charge, things would be different. . . Robert for King! You can have microbug armies to do your every bidding, and ours too while you're at it. Get them mining landfills to reclaim the valuable metals we've dumped there over the decades, and destroy the nasties too, releasing their benign remains into the air round the cities in the form of harmless euphorics that make us all happy and nice to each other. Peace forever! Anything is possible! LOL! Regards Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Keith Addison wrote: Could the resulting, simpler sugars also be worked on by yeast to produce fuel ethanol? Yes. That was, in fact, the intent of the research. I believe I may have left out a step, as enzymatic treatment appears necessary. (I shouldn't be quoting without verifying facts, right?) Here's a link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=pubmeddopt=Abstractlist_uids=15930586itool=iconabstrquery_hl=2 Gosh! I'm awed! Nice to read, thanks! You're welcome, but why be awed? I'd written nothing you wouldn't find in a good high school level biology text. Robert for King! One of us had better stop before I get a swelled head . . . robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Keith Addison wrote: At BIOCAP Canada's First National Conference in February 2005, a research team at the Wastewater Technology Centre and the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, presented a poster describing a prototype process for producing substantial amounts of hydrogen as well as methane from potato waste [1]. This is very interesting. I've experimented with using bacteria to produce hydrogen in an anaerobic environment, and it works well if the feed stock is sugar based. I wasn't aware they were capable of breaking down starches. Bacteria are amazing little creatures! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Starches are a type of sugar -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert luis rabello Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:50 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power Keith Addison wrote: At BIOCAP Canada's First National Conference in February 2005, a research team at the Wastewater Technology Centre and the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, presented a poster describing a prototype process for producing substantial amounts of hydrogen as well as methane from potato waste [1]. This is very interesting. I've experimented with using bacteria to produce hydrogen in an anaerobic environment, and it works well if the feed stock is sugar based. I wasn't aware they were capable of breaking down starches. Bacteria are amazing little creatures! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Mark Kaufman wrote: Starches are a type of sugar Yes, but bigger. I'd never tried the technique with starch wastes. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] Bug Power
Hello Mark Starches are a type of sugar Both are carbohydrates. Usually you need an enzyme (or mould) to convert starches to sugar. And a yeast to convert the sugar to ethanol, if it's ethanol you want. Robert, are bacteria creatures or plants? Microflora they say. (Not that plants aren't creatures.) Amazing, yes. Not much is known about them. Most of the microbugs working away in a good compost pile (maybe 25,000 different types) haven't been identified yet, let alone their capabilities. IMO there's more and better to be gained via such research than nonsense like Big M's pesticide-resistant soybeans, eg. Best wishes Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert luis rabello Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:50 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Bug Power Keith Addison wrote: At BIOCAP Canada's First National Conference in February 2005, a research team at the Wastewater Technology Centre and the University of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, presented a poster describing a prototype process for producing substantial amounts of hydrogen as well as methane from potato waste [1]. This is very interesting. I've experimented with using bacteria to produce hydrogen in an anaerobic environment, and it works well if the feed stock is sugar based. I wasn't aware they were capable of breaking down starches. Bacteria are amazing little creatures! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
