Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
The thread regarding islamofascism (my term) I initiated because I felt that term appropriately described fundamental islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other islamic states. I gave a few examples for the use of this term (islamofascism), citing in particular women's rights being trampled on in these states. I cited definitions of fascism as typically referencing nationalism or racism, so the use of the term referencing religion is relatively new, hence the term islamofascism, not simply fascism. In response, Keith, for instance, referenced the Bush administration's apparent foolish belief in the Rapture. I never said the Bush administration, or the US in general, doesn't have problems of fascism. In fact, just the opposite, I already agreed the the US government is in danger of turning fascist. However, Keith's point in referencing Christian fascism only strengthens the point that religious fascism does exist. Another response, from Chris B. was more of a history lesson in which, apparently, western exploitation of Middle eastern people is at least partly responsible for current excesses in certain Middle East governments. Again, I don't doubt that there is some truth in this point, however it changes nothing in the overall issue, which is that CURRENTLY certain middle east states suffer from islamofascism. The history lesson is interesting, but not useful in the point I was making (however it was useful in the point Chris was making). My final point is this: I see no reason that progressive or liberal westerners should have any sympathy with islamofascist states. The practice of Sharia law is antithetical to common progressive ideals: women's rights, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, education for the masses, environmentalism, and on and on. These are ideals that suffer greatly under islamofascism. Kurt Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 10:30:56 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again modern? see Roman symbol http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/images/fasci8_2.jpg Chris Burck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what are you smoking, kurt? there are lots of fine points and subtleties when studying history, most especially comparative political history. it's really best to study, observe, think about, and discuss these things deliberately, objectively, and with a clear head. the words islam and fascism just don't go together. period. simply because you can string a bunch of letters together in a heretofore unknown sequence does not, for all that they may tug at your amygdala, mean you are reflecting any kind of reality. at least not one that matters to ordinary adults (theodore geisel notwithstanding). fascism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon, completely inseparable from industrial, capitalist society. to attempt to understand so-called sharia and wahabi islam one must explore what hdppened when, and in what context. whem doing so, we find that so-called wahabism began well before the modernization of the arabian peninsula. it was co-opted in its earliest phase by the house of saud as a means of consolidating power, and with a quite clear understanding of the distinction between spiritual and temporal authority (i.e. the saudi kingdom was not nor is a theocracy). the more contempory manifestations, such as the islamic brotherhood and the islamic revolutionaries in iran are reactions, explicitly so, to centuries-long western political and economic subjugation (contrast this with the so-called gay agenda, just one of the many vaporous internal threats that the american crypto-fascist right so love to monger). not all things zealous, brutal or intolerant are fascist. the only possible purpose for coining a term such as islamo-fascist, is to associate islam with hitler and genocide in the mind of the target audience. once this association is drawn, well, there's no end to the possibilities. On 5/26/08, Kurt Schasker wrote: This thread occurred a few weeks ago, but I owe a response, so here goes. First off, Mr. Addison suggests my comments reflect the idea that Islam is in moral decline. This is not what I meant. In fact, my post has just the opposite suggestion: Islam, and Islamofascism, reflect a society that is morally rigid. Perhaps the term hypermoral could be used. As far as Sharia law is concerned, here is what Wikipedia says: This is true (Sharia law) for the application of the death penalty for the crimes of adultery and homosexuality, amputations for the crime of theft, and flogging for fornication or public intoxication. The history of Islam, and Sharia law, is beyond the scope of this response. Certainly there is much to be celebrated when considering Islam. In the context of modern practices of Sharia law, however, in those nations that practice a fundamental form of it, like Saudi Arabia and Iran, I believe
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Well Kurt, thankyou, but we're not getting anywhere, this is just a pointless argument. It just doesn't work if your only tactic is dogged defence of your position at all costs and blind-eyeing anything that disagrees with it, including any difficult questions. Chris's argument is not useful, you say my post merely strengthens your point. Well, that it sure didn't do. Unintentionally I'm sure, you have your emailer set up so it makes a horrible mess of the previous messages, the line-feeds are gone, the 's are everywhere and it's virtually unreadable, so it's difficult to see what the people you say you're replying to actually said. Here are the originals, just for the record: http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg72690.html 2008/05/27 Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again Chris Burck http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg72688.html 2008/05/27 Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again Keith Addison Anyway, your arguments grow thinner and thinner as what you ignore accumulates, until finally they achieve total transparency: Kurt is right no matter what. That doesn't cut it here, all you've done is shred your credibility and disqualified yourself. And wasted everyone's time. Further posts from you on this subject will not be accepted. Attempts at further such discussion from you in the future will not be accepted either. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner The thread regarding islamofascism (my term) I initiated because I felt that term appropriately described fundamental islam as practiced in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other islamic states. I gave a few examples for the use of this term (islamofascism), citing in particular women's rights being trampled on in these states. I cited definitions of fascism as typically referencing nationalism or racism, so the use of the term referencing religion is relatively new, hence the term islamofascism, not simply fascism. In response, Keith, for instance, referenced the Bush administration's apparent foolish belief in the Rapture. I never said the Bush administration, or the US in general, doesn't have problems of fascism. In fact, just the opposite, I already agreed the the US government is in danger of turning fascist. However, Keith's point in referencing Christian fascism only strengthens the point that religious fascism does exist. Another response, from Chris B. was more of a history lesson in which, apparently, western exploitation of Middle eastern people is at least partly responsible for current excesses in certain Middle East governments. Again, I don't doubt that there is some truth in this point, however it changes nothing in the overall issue, which is that CURRENTLY certain middle east states suffer from islamofascism. The history lesson is interesting, but not useful in the point I was making (however it was useful in the point Chris was making). My final point is this: I see no reason that progressive or liberal westerners should have any sympathy with islamofascist states. The practice of Sharia law is antithetical to common progressive ideals: women's rights, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, education for the masses, environmentalism, and on and on. These are ideals that suffer greatly under islamofascism. Kurt Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 10:30:56 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again modern? see Roman symbol http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/images/fasci8_2.jpg Chris Burck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what are you smoking, kurt? there are lots of fine points and subtleties when studying history, most especially comparative political history. it's really best to study, observe, think about, and discuss these things deliberately, objectively, and with a clear head. the words islam and fascism just don't go together. period. simply because you can string a bunch of letters together in a heretofore unknown sequence does not, for all that they may tug at your amygdala, mean you are reflecting any kind of reality. at least not one that matters to ordinary adults (theodore geisel notwithstanding). fascism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon, completely inseparable from industrial, capitalist society. to attempt to understand so-called sharia and wahabi islam one must explore what hdppened when, and in what context. whem doing so, we find that so-called wahabism began well before the modernization of the arabian peninsula. it was co-opted in its earliest phase by the house of saud as a means of consolidating power, and with a quite clear understanding of the distinction between spiritual and temporal authority (i.e. the saudi kingdom was not nor is a theocracy). the more contempory manifestations, such as the islamic brotherhood and the islamic
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
what are you smoking, kurt? there are lots of fine points and subtleties when studying history, most especially comparative political history. it's really best to study, observe, think about, and discuss these things deliberately, objectively, and with a clear head. the words islam and fascism just don't go together. period. simply because you can string a bunch of letters together in a heretofore unknown sequence does not, for all that they may tug at your amygdala, mean you are reflecting any kind of reality. at least not one that matters to ordinary adults (theodore geisel notwithstanding). fascism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon, completely inseparable from industrial, capitalist society. to attempt to understand so-called sharia and wahabi islam one must explore what hdppened when, and in what context. whem doing so, we find that so-called wahabism began well before the modernization of the arabian peninsula. it was co-opted in its earliest phase by the house of saud as a means of consolidating power, and with a quite clear understanding of the distinction between spiritual and temporal authority (i.e. the saudi kingdom was not nor is a theocracy). the more contempory manifestations, such as the islamic brotherhood and the islamic revolutionaries in iran are reactions, explicitly so, to centuries-long western political and economic subjugation (contrast this with the so-called gay agenda, just one of the many vaporous internal threats that the american crypto-fascist right so love to monger). not all things zealous, brutal or intolerant are fascist. the only possible purpose for coining a term such as islamo-fascist, is to associate islam with hitler and genocide in the mind of the target audience. once this association is drawn, well, there's no end to the possibilities. On 5/26/08, Kurt Schasker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This thread occurred a few weeks ago, but I owe a response, so here goes. First off, Mr. Addison suggests my comments reflect the idea that Islam is in moral decline. This is not what I meant. In fact, my post has just the opposite suggestion: Islam, and Islamofascism, reflect a society that is morally rigid. Perhaps the term hypermoral could be used. As far as Sharia law is concerned, here is what Wikipedia says: This is true (Sharia law) for the application of the death penalty for the crimes of adultery and homosexuality, amputations for the crime of theft, and flogging for fornication or public intoxication. The history of Islam, and Sharia law, is beyond the scope of this response. Certainly there is much to be celebrated when considering Islam. In the context of modern practices of Sharia law, however, in those nations that practice a fundamental form of it, like Saudi Arabia and Iran, I believe Islamofascism is the correct term. These two countries maintain religious police. Women's rights and Sharia law are a particularly troublesome combination. Check here: http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2278332,00.html (This article details the difficulties women face in receiving health care under sharia law.) Let's not even talk about female education, and schooling. I don't doubt that plenty of scripture exists for the fair treatment of women in the Quran, however, as practiced, Sharia law seems at great odds with any form of freedom that westerners are accustomed to. Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 06:14:49 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again Hello Kurt I am too lazy to double check myself! Lazier than that I think, totally fast asleep maybe. You honestly think (?) Islam is an idea that's in a moral decline? LOL! How else could you define a government that recognizes, and enforces, Sharia Law? Wise? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19818.htm Islamic Finance, by Loretta Napoleoni, 26/04/08 ICH -- -- Islamic finance has become the fastest-growing, most dynamic sector of global finance. Every Western-style financial product has its sharia, i.e. Islamic law, compliant instrument: microfinance, mortgages, oil and gas exploration, bridge building, even sponsorship of sporting events. Islamic finance is innovative, flexible, and potentially very profitable. Operating in 70 countries with about $500bn in assets, it is poised to expand geometrically. With more than one billion Muslims eager to support it, analysts project that this system will soon manage approximately 4 percent of the world economy, equivalent to $1 trillion in assets. Such figures explain the eagerness of Western banks to tap into sharia financial services. Citigroup, along with many other Western banking retailers, have opened Islamic branches in Muslim countries. [more] How would you define a government that's married to militarism and violence on the one hand and chasing the End Times Armageddon on the other? Laziness and sloppy
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
After a quick google, I think the numbers show that China in absolute numbers is much more likely to kill its prisoners than the US or any other country. I would suppose a fundamental difference is the amount of publicity surrounding each execution depending upon the country. The exact number of convicts put to death is a state secret. Amnesty International estimates there were at least 1,770 executions in China in 2005 — vs. 60 in the United States, but the group says on its website that the toll could be as high as 8,000 prisoners. Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-06-14-death-van_x.htm In 2007, 470 executions were recorded by Amnesty International, but this number is based on public reports available and serves as an absolute minimum. The US-based organization Dui Hua Foundation estimates that 6,000 people were executed last year based on figures obtained from local officials. In a country as vast as China with tight government controls on information and the media, only the authorities know the reality behind the use of the death penalty. Source: http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty/death-sentences-and-executions-in-2007 During 2006, at least 1,591 people were executed in 25 countries.(1) At least 3,861 people were sentenced to death in 55 countries. These were only minimum figures; the true figures were certainly higher. Source: http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGACT500122007lang=e Incorrect numbers do not change the underlying argument about capital punishment in a civilized society... Keith Said: Once again this is a bizarre criticism coming from the US, which has a barbaric attitude to the death penalty: the US executes far more people than any other country, both in total and per population size - more than China does. The US condones and practises torture. The US has the highest prison population in the world, mostly for minor offences that are decriminalised in many other countries. You don't mention my reference to Sharia and Islamic finance, by the way. (And Wikipedia is a lousy source.) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
not sure if this was mentioned but has anyone seen the documentary called ENDGAME it is shown for free on google. the author has a website called www.endgamethemovie.com where he has links to all the facts that he referrersnbsp; to.nbsp; it shows the roots of fascism up to todays activities its very interesting. --- On Tue, 5/27/08, Keith Addison lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; wrote: From: Keith Addison lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Received: Tuesday, May 27, 2008, 9:35 AM Hello Kurt Thanks for the response. But it's still myopic, or at least very one-sided, and it leaves out the essential context, it's a sort of history-free view. For one thing, just about everything you say about Islamofascism is mirrored in the West, particularly in the US. For instance, you say Islam and Islamofascism are morally rigid, or hypermoral. I already mentioned the End Times far-right-wing so-called Christian fundamentalists in the US, not at all just a fringe movement there but highly influential, all the way up to the White House, election results and foreign policy. You just don't get any more morally hidebound than that. See eg: lt;http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52660.htmlgt; Re: [Biofuel] The Rapture Even on a less-extreme level, the religious aspects of the current US election debate involving all three candidates leave the rest of the world bemused. gt;This thread occurred a few weeks ago, but I owe a response, so here goes. gt; gt;First off, Mr. Addison suggests my comments reflect the idea that gt;Islam is in moral decline. This is not what I meant. In fact, my gt;post has just the opposite suggestion: Islam, and Islamofascism, gt;reflect a society that is morally rigid. Perhaps the term gt;hypermoral could be used. gt; gt;As far as Sharia law is concerned, here is what Wikipedia says: gt;This is true (Sharia law) for the application of the death penalty gt;for the crimes of adultery and homosexuality, amputations for the gt;crime of theft, and flogging for fornication or public intoxication. Once again this is a bizarre criticism coming from the US, which has a barbaric attitude to the death penalty: the US executes far more people than any other country, both in total and per population size - more than China does. The US condones and practises torture. The US has the highest prison population in the world, mostly for minor offences that are decriminalised in many other countries. You don't mention my reference to Sharia and Islamic finance, by the way. (And Wikipedia is a lousy source.) gt;The history of Islam, and Sharia law, is beyond the scope of this gt;response. Certainly there is much to be celebrated when considering gt;Islam. Certainly there is, yes. gt;In the context of modern practices of Sharia law, however, in those gt;nations that practice a fundamental form of it, like Saudi Arabia gt;and Iran, I believe Islamofascism is the correct term. These two gt;countries maintain religious police. I rather expected your two examples, see below. gt;Women's rights and Sharia law are a particularly troublesome gt;combination. Check here: gt;http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2278332,00.html gt;(This article details the difficulties women face in receiving gt;health care under sharia law.) There are quite a few other articles and studies dealing with the devastation caused in reproductive healthcare worldwide by the primitive US policies on contraception and abortion. gt;Let's not even talk about female education, and schooling. I think many Muslim women in Muslim countries would not agree with you. gt;I don't doubt that plenty of scripture exists for the fair treatment gt;of women in the Quran, however, as practiced, Sharia law seems at gt;great odds with any form of freedom that westerners are accustomed gt;to. So does the Patriot Act in the US. And so on, see above. Regarding Saudi Arabia and Iran, first Iran: what, do you think, might the situation be in Iran today if the CIA hadn't staged a coup there in 1953 that ousted the democratically elected Mossadeq and replaced him with the Shah, a brutal Fascist (but he's *our* Fascist)? A lot of Iranians ask that question, they tend to be not exactly very pleased that most Americans don't even know it happened (perhaps many of the same ones who talk about Islamofascism now and/or want to bomb Iran into a parking lot). See eg: http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new book, All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953 Lots about it in the list archives too: lt;http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
You're quite right, some confusion there - my apologies, and thanks for the correction. Best Keith After a quick google, I think the numbers show that China in absolute numbers is much more likely to kill its prisoners than the US or any other country. I would suppose a fundamental difference is the amount of publicity surrounding each execution depending upon the country. The exact number of convicts put to death is a state secret. Amnesty International estimates there were at least 1,770 executions in China in 2005 - vs. 60 in the United States, but the group says on its website that the toll could be as high as 8,000 prisoners. Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-06-14-death-van_x.htm In 2007, 470 executions were recorded by Amnesty International, but this number is based on public reports available and serves as an absolute minimum. The US-based organization Dui Hua Foundation estimates that 6,000 people were executed last year based on figures obtained from local officials. In a country as vast as China with tight government controls on information and the media, only the authorities know the reality behind the use of the death penalty. Source: http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty/death-sentences-and-executions-in-2007 During 2006, at least 1,591 people were executed in 25 countries.(1) At least 3,861 people were sentenced to death in 55 countries. These were only minimum figures; the true figures were certainly higher. Source: http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?id=ENGACT500122007lang=e Incorrect numbers do not change the underlying argument about capital punishment in a civilized society... Keith Said: Once again this is a bizarre criticism coming from the US, which has a barbaric attitude to the death penalty: the US executes far more people than any other country, both in total and per population size - more than China does. The US condones and practises torture. The US has the highest prison population in the world, mostly for minor offences that are decriminalised in many other countries. You don't mention my reference to Sharia and Islamic finance, by the way. (And Wikipedia is a lousy source.) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
modern? see Roman symbol http://www.feastofhateandfear.com/images/fasci8_2.jpg Chris Burck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what are you smoking, kurt? there are lots of fine points and subtleties when studying history, most especially comparative political history. it's really best to study, observe, think about, and discuss these things deliberately, objectively, and with a clear head. the words islam and fascism just don't go together. period. simply because you can string a bunch of letters together in a heretofore unknown sequence does not, for all that they may tug at your amygdala, mean you are reflecting any kind of reality. at least not one that matters to ordinary adults (theodore geisel notwithstanding). fascism is a thoroughly modern phenomenon, completely inseparable from industrial, capitalist society. to attempt to understand so-called sharia and wahabi islam one must explore what hdppened when, and in what context. whem doing so, we find that so-called wahabism began well before the modernization of the arabian peninsula. it was co-opted in its earliest phase by the house of saud as a means of consolidating power, and with a quite clear understanding of the distinction between spiritual and temporal authority (i.e. the saudi kingdom was not nor is a theocracy). the more contempory manifestations, such as the islamic brotherhood and the islamic revolutionaries in iran are reactions, explicitly so, to centuries-long western political and economic subjugation (contrast this with the so-called gay agenda, just one of the many vaporous internal threats that the american crypto-fascist right so love to monger). not all things zealous, brutal or intolerant are fascist. the only possible purpose for coining a term such as islamo-fascist, is to associate islam with hitler and genocide in the mind of the target audience. once this association is drawn, well, there's no end to the possibilities. On 5/26/08, Kurt Schasker wrote: This thread occurred a few weeks ago, but I owe a response, so here goes. First off, Mr. Addison suggests my comments reflect the idea that Islam is in moral decline. This is not what I meant. In fact, my post has just the opposite suggestion: Islam, and Islamofascism, reflect a society that is morally rigid. Perhaps the term hypermoral could be used. As far as Sharia law is concerned, here is what Wikipedia says: This is true (Sharia law) for the application of the death penalty for the crimes of adultery and homosexuality, amputations for the crime of theft, and flogging for fornication or public intoxication. The history of Islam, and Sharia law, is beyond the scope of this response. Certainly there is much to be celebrated when considering Islam. In the context of modern practices of Sharia law, however, in those nations that practice a fundamental form of it, like Saudi Arabia and Iran, I believe Islamofascism is the correct term. These two countries maintain religious police. Women's rights and Sharia law are a particularly troublesome combination. Check here: http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2278332,00.html (This article details the difficulties women face in receiving health care under sharia law.) Let's not even talk about female education, and schooling. I don't doubt that plenty of scripture exists for the fair treatment of women in the Quran, however, as practiced, Sharia law seems at great odds with any form of freedom that westerners are accustomed to. Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 06:14:49 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again Hello Kurt I am too lazy to double check myself! Lazier than that I think, totally fast asleep maybe. You honestly think (?) Islam is an idea that's in a moral decline? LOL! How else could you define a government that recognizes, and enforces, Sharia Law? Wise? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19818.htm Islamic Finance, by Loretta Napoleoni, 26/04/08 ICH -- -- Islamic finance has become the fastest-growing, most dynamic sector of global finance. Every Western-style financial product has its sharia, i.e. Islamic law, compliant instrument: microfinance, mortgages, oil and gas exploration, bridge building, even sponsorship of sporting events. Islamic finance is innovative, flexible, and potentially very profitable. Operating in 70 countries with about $500bn in assets, it is poised to expand geometrically. With more than one billion Muslims eager to support it, analysts project that this system will soon manage approximately 4 percent of the world economy, equivalent to $1 trillion in assets. Such figures explain the eagerness of Western banks to tap into sharia financial services. Citigroup, along with many other Western banking retailers, have opened Islamic branches in Muslim countries. [more] How would you define a government that's married to militarism
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
This thread occurred a few weeks ago, but I owe a response, so here goes. First off, Mr. Addison suggests my comments reflect the idea that Islam is in moral decline. This is not what I meant. In fact, my post has just the opposite suggestion: Islam, and Islamofascism, reflect a society that is morally rigid. Perhaps the term hypermoral could be used. As far as Sharia law is concerned, here is what Wikipedia says: This is true (Sharia law) for the application of the death penalty for the crimes of adultery and homosexuality, amputations for the crime of theft, and flogging for fornication or public intoxication. The history of Islam, and Sharia law, is beyond the scope of this response. Certainly there is much to be celebrated when considering Islam. In the context of modern practices of Sharia law, however, in those nations that practice a fundamental form of it, like Saudi Arabia and Iran, I believe Islamofascism is the correct term. These two countries maintain religious police. Women's rights and Sharia law are a particularly troublesome combination. Check here: http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,,2278332,00.html (This article details the difficulties women face in receiving health care under sharia law.) Let's not even talk about female education, and schooling. I don't doubt that plenty of scripture exists for the fair treatment of women in the Quran, however, as practiced, Sharia law seems at great odds with any form of freedom that westerners are accustomed to. Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 06:14:49 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again Hello Kurt I am too lazy to double check myself! Lazier than that I think, totally fast asleep maybe. You honestly think (?) Islam is an idea that's in a moral decline? LOL! How else could you define a government that recognizes, and enforces, Sharia Law? Wise? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19818.htm Islamic Finance, by Loretta Napoleoni, 26/04/08 ICH -- -- Islamic finance has become the fastest-growing, most dynamic sector of global finance. Every Western-style financial product has its sharia, i.e. Islamic law, compliant instrument: microfinance, mortgages, oil and gas exploration, bridge building, even sponsorship of sporting events. Islamic finance is innovative, flexible, and potentially very profitable. Operating in 70 countries with about $500bn in assets, it is poised to expand geometrically. With more than one billion Muslims eager to support it, analysts project that this system will soon manage approximately 4 percent of the world economy, equivalent to $1 trillion in assets. Such figures explain the eagerness of Western banks to tap into sharia financial services. Citigroup, along with many other Western banking retailers, have opened Islamic branches in Muslim countries. [more] How would you define a government that's married to militarism and violence on the one hand and chasing the End Times Armageddon on the other? Laziness and sloppy, blinkered thinking is not welcome here. If you can't do better than this blind and prejudiced crap then go away. Keith Fascism is repeatedly defined as mass movements concerned with ideas of religious, cultural, ethnic, or national implications. Fascism is founded in the idea that one or more of these ideas is in a moral decline, and therefore the state needs to usurp individual power in order to right the ship. This seems to me to be exactly what is occurring in Saudia Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Indonesia, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, to name a few. The term islamo-fascism seems to me to be extraordinarily appropriate. Hitler and Mussolini created a nationalistic version of fascism. Ahmadinejad, for instance, in Iran is actively creating a religious version. How else could you define a government that recognizes, and enforces, Sharia Law? I agree that few people on the street truly understand the definiton of fascism, and therefore the term is typically used as a default perjorative to describe those governments in opposition to the US government. However, just because the term is not well understood does not make its correct use inappropriate. As a side note, I am not sure if the countries I listed all enforce Sharia Law. I apologize if I got that information incorrect. I am too lazy to double check myself! I do agree that the US is slipping into a nationalistic version of fascism. This is why it is important to celebrate other country's successes, to show that the US way is not always the best, or right way. Kurt Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:28:30 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Hi Chip Keith Addison wrote: | How about Neo-con Fascist. | | Chris | | That sounds serviceable. I suppose some people would stick pig on | the end, it fits quite well. Fine critters, pigs. I never met a pig | who was a Fascist. I think Orwell gave them a bad press. | | Best | | Keith Agreed. The dogs could have played the pigs' role too. Like the hyena in The Island of Dr Moreau movie: Good doggie. Bang! That said, they are more like us (home sapiens sapiens) than just about everybody (all critters) else, other than our 2 chimp cousins. Yes. But then I'm not sure that's much of a measure of anything much other than ease of communication. Of course there's a lot to be said for ease of communication, but people tend to see how like us other creatures are or aren't as a measure of their superior worth, or of their uselessness, which is odious. Anyway, communication isn't that difficult if you try, even with creatures who're not like us at all. That said, considering us, who knows what they would be like if they had hands! :-) Well, we can see what politicians are like when you give them troughs. Best Keith :) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Keith Of course there's a lot to be said for ease of communication, but people tend to see how like us other creatures are or aren't as a measure of their superior worth, or of their uselessness, which is odious. That applies as much between humans as between humans and other species. How often are people of other ethnicities not seen as somehow not quite up to scratch simply because they aren't comfortable in one's language? This is the well-known origin of the word barbarian. It goes as far as actively teaching oppressed people to speak badly: I think of the pidgin Afrikaans that black people were expected to speak here during apartheid, and still are in some quarters. Bantu Education involved teaching children that Ek gan hallom die foshol vor Baas is the way one speaks Afrikaans, and the result then held forth as obvious proof that the people are intellectually inferior. Parallel instances can be found throughout the history of colonization. Odious indeed. Regards Dawie __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080514/d2af867a/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Keith Addison wrote: | How about Neo-con Fascist. | | Chris | | That sounds serviceable. I suppose some people would stick pig on | the end, it fits quite well. Fine critters, pigs. I never met a pig | who was a Fascist. I think Orwell gave them a bad press. | | Best | | Keith Agreed. That said, they are more like us (home sapiens sapiens) than just about everybody (all critters) else, other than our 2 chimp cousins. That said, considering us, who knows what they would be like if they had hands! :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIKDYvlwL/NsEHg6sRAsCqAJwODrFja83NBD49mmLXwDLWBo3JPQCfRdIo LpRzHVqlPe9mbTvQH8vriE4= =8nqU -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
How about Neo-con Fascist. Chris That sounds serviceable. I suppose some people would stick pig on the end, it fits quite well. Fine critters, pigs. I never met a pig who was a Fascist. I think Orwell gave them a bad press. Best Keith -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 9 May 2008 8:28 am Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again (oh, dear, you got me started. . .) :-) That's nice. how about corpiracy (inflicted on us by the neoprivateers-nice little double entendre)? probably not. too cutesy. Not bad. Corpiracy is good, needs the right pronunciation though; neoprivateers is nice but it's not headline language (too cerebral) (ie cerebral at all). A comment this week (from a counter-terrorism expert!): Almost every product we consume has a hidden dark history, from slave labor to piracy, from counterfeit to fraud, from theft to money laundering. We know very little about these economic secrets because modern consumers live inside the market matrix. -- The Challenge Of Modern Slavery, Loretta Napoleoni, 07/05/08 ICH http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19879.htm Not sure if she means matrix or Matrix but it doesn't matter much. I think it points in a more useful direction than just fingering the perps. I keep saying something like that too, that or what another commentator called the Hollywood Hologram. (Kirk said they're hypnotised.) Not much use knowing your enemy if you still can't see how he's doing it to you. if a new word emerges, it'll most likely come from the street. Just as long as it's not Wall Street. meanwhile, oligarchy works for me, too. that, or babylon. :-) The folks in the Green Roofs movement keep talking about Babylon's great roof gardens, something we all need to emulate, they say. Meanwhile, at a corpiracy near you ... Multinationals Make Billions In Profit Out of Growing Global Food Crisis - Speculators blamed for driving up price of basic foods as 100 million face severe hunger Published on Sunday, May 4, 2008 by The Independent/UK http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/04/8710/ http://www.prwatch.org/node/7279 Lobbying: A Recession-Proof Industry Source: Detroit News, May 1, 2008 While the U.S. economy has been slowing, lobbyists have been making more than ever. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, businesses, labor unions, governments and other interests spent a record $2.79 billion to lobby Washington in 2007, up 7.7 percent or $200 million in spending the year before. The automotive industry spent a new high of $70.3 million lobbying Congress in 2007; a 19.6% increase over 2006. The change was due in large part to efforts to oppose the enactment of higher fuel efficiency standards. General Motors was responsible for over $14 million in lobbying expenditures, while Ford spent $7.2 million, followed by Toyota with $5.9 million. But the auto industry was not the biggest spender. Trade groups like AARP and the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, or PhRMA, topped it. And GM came in fifth in spending by corporations, trailing General Electric, ExxonMobil, ATT and Amgen. Center for Responsive Politics executive director Sheila Krumholz said, At a time when our economy is contracting, Washington's lobbying industry has been expanding. Lobbying seems to be a recession-proof industry. In some respects, interests seek even more from our government when the economy slows. http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080501/AUTO01/805010347 Best Keith On 5/7/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chip Keith Addison wrote: Hi Chip, Chris and all This is the famous Mussolini quote: Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini But Public Eye reckons he never said it. See: http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html Mussolini on the Corporate State Play it again Benito. :-) Such was my understanding. Benito, from what I've read, was basically a strong man thug type. Government philosophy wasn't one of his strong points. No. (But did he play the piano?) So what to call it then, if fascism's just an empty word these days? Chomsky calls it polyarchy: It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party. with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
(oh, dear, you got me started. . .) :-) That's nice. how about corpiracy (inflicted on us by the neoprivateers-nice little double entendre)? probably not. too cutesy. Not bad. Corpiracy is good, needs the right pronunciation though; neoprivateers is nice but it's not headline language (too cerebral) (ie cerebral at all). A comment this week (from a counter-terrorism expert!): Almost every product we consume has a hidden dark history, from slave labor to piracy, from counterfeit to fraud, from theft to money laundering. We know very little about these economic secrets because modern consumers live inside the market matrix. -- The Challenge Of Modern Slavery, Loretta Napoleoni, 07/05/08 ICH http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19879.htm Not sure if she means matrix or Matrix but it doesn't matter much. I think it points in a more useful direction than just fingering the perps. I keep saying something like that too, that or what another commentator called the Hollywood Hologram. (Kirk said they're hypnotised.) Not much use knowing your enemy if you still can't see how he's doing it to you. if a new word emerges, it'll most likely come from the street. Just as long as it's not Wall Street. meanwhile, oligarchy works for me, too. that, or babylon. :-) The folks in the Green Roofs movement keep talking about Babylon's great roof gardens, something we all need to emulate, they say. Meanwhile, at a corpiracy near you ... Multinationals Make Billions In Profit Out of Growing Global Food Crisis - Speculators blamed for driving up price of basic foods as 100 million face severe hunger Published on Sunday, May 4, 2008 by The Independent/UK http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/04/8710/ http://www.prwatch.org/node/7279 Lobbying: A Recession-Proof Industry Source: Detroit News, May 1, 2008 While the U.S. economy has been slowing, lobbyists have been making more than ever. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, businesses, labor unions, governments and other interests spent a record $2.79 billion to lobby Washington in 2007, up 7.7 percent or $200 million in spending the year before. The automotive industry spent a new high of $70.3 million lobbying Congress in 2007; a 19.6% increase over 2006. The change was due in large part to efforts to oppose the enactment of higher fuel efficiency standards. General Motors was responsible for over $14 million in lobbying expenditures, while Ford spent $7.2 million, followed by Toyota with $5.9 million. But the auto industry was not the biggest spender. Trade groups like AARP and the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, or PhRMA, topped it. And GM came in fifth in spending by corporations, trailing General Electric, ExxonMobil, ATT and Amgen. Center for Responsive Politics executive director Sheila Krumholz said, At a time when our economy is contracting, Washington's lobbying industry has been expanding. Lobbying seems to be a recession-proof industry. In some respects, interests seek even more from our government when the economy slows. http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080501/AUTO01/805010347 Best Keith On 5/7/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chip Keith Addison wrote: Hi Chip, Chris and all This is the famous Mussolini quote: Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini But Public Eye reckons he never said it. See: http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html Mussolini on the Corporate State Play it again Benito. :-) Such was my understanding. Benito, from what I've read, was basically a strong man thug type. Government philosophy wasn't one of his strong points. No. (But did he play the piano?) So what to call it then, if fascism's just an empty word these days? Chomsky calls it polyarchy: It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party. with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business. Not a good soundbyte word though, polyarchy, needs work... I like plutocracy myself. Corporate Oligarchy is good as well. Franklin, Jefferson et al, warned
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
How about Neo-con Fascist. Chris -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Fri, 9 May 2008 8:28 am Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again (oh, dear, you got me started. . .) :-) That's nice. how about corpiracy (inflicted on us by the neoprivateers-nice little double entendre)? probably not. too cutesy. Not bad. Corpiracy is good, needs the right pronunciation though; neoprivateers is nice but it's not headline language (too cerebral) (ie cerebral at all). A comment this week (from a counter-terrorism expert!): Almost every product we consume has a hidden dark history, from slave labor to piracy, from counterfeit to fraud, from theft to money laundering. We know very little about these economic secrets because modern consumers live inside the market matrix. -- The Challenge Of Modern Slavery, Loretta Napoleoni, 07/05/08 ICH http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19879.htm Not sure if she means matrix or Matrix but it doesn't matter much. I think it points in a more useful direction than just fingering the perps. I keep saying something like that too, that or what another commentator called the Hollywood Hologram. (Kirk said they're hypnotised.) Not much use knowing your enemy if you still can't see how he's doing it to you. if a new word emerges, it'll most likely come from the street. Just as long as it's not Wall Street. meanwhile, oligarchy works for me, too. that, or babylon. :-) The folks in the Green Roofs movement keep talking about Babylon's great roof gardens, something we all need to emulate, they say. Meanwhile, at a corpiracy near you ... Multinationals Make Billions In Profit Out of Growing Global Food Crisis - Speculators blamed for driving up price of basic foods as 100 million face severe hunger Published on Sunday, May 4, 2008 by The Independent/UK http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/04/8710/ http://www.prwatch.org/node/7279 Lobbying: A Recession-Proof Industry Source: Detroit News, May 1, 2008 While the U.S. economy has been slowing, lobbyists have been making more than ever. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, businesses, labor unions, governments and other interests spent a record $2.79 billion to lobby Washington in 2007, up 7.7 percent or $200 million in spending the year before. The automotive industry spent a new high of $70.3 million lobbying Congress in 2007; a 19.6% increase over 2006. The change was due in large part to efforts to oppose the enactment of higher fuel efficiency standards. General Motors was responsible for over $14 million in lobbying expenditures, while Ford spent $7.2 million, followed by Toyota with $5.9 million. But the auto industry was not the biggest spender. Trade groups like AARP and the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, or PhRMA, topped it. And GM came in fifth in spending by corporations, trailing General Electric, ExxonMobil, ATT and Amgen. Center for Responsive Politics executive director Sheila Krumholz said, At a time when our economy is contracting, Washington's lobbying industry has been expanding. Lobbying seems to be a recession-proof industry. In some respects, interests seek even more from our government when the economy slows. http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080501/AUTO01/805010347 Best Keith On 5/7/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chip Keith Addison wrote: Hi Chip, Chris and all This is the famous Mussolini quote: Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini But Public Eye reckons he never said it. See: http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html Mussolini on the Corporate State Play it again Benito. :-) Such was my understanding. Benito, from what I've read, was basically a strong man thug type. Government philosophy wasn't one of his strong points. No. (But did he play the piano?) So what to call it then, if fascism's just an empty word these days? Chomsky calls it polyarchy: It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party. with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Keith Addison wrote: Hi Chip, Chris and all This is the famous Mussolini quote: Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini But Public Eye reckons he never said it. See: http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html Mussolini on the Corporate State Play it again Benito. :-) Such was my understanding. Benito, from what I've read, was basically a strong man thug type. Government philosophy wasn't one of his strong points. So what to call it then, if fascism's just an empty word these days? Chomsky calls it polyarchy: It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party. with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business. Not a good soundbyte word though, polyarchy, needs work... I like plutocracy myself. Corporate Oligarchy is good as well. Franklin, Jefferson et al, warned against corporations, and tried to set the base law of the US (aka the constitution) up so that corporations would be shackled in such a away as to avoid the wholly predictable rise of a corporate oligarchy. Chomsky's spot on, of course, but I think he lends too much credence to the twin party system, I'm not sure another term is needed. But then again, he's the linguist, not me. :) -- Best Keith Chris Burck wrote: well, when terms like islamo-fascist get slung about, yeah, you bet the meaning has been degraded. that's precisely the purpose for which such terms have been coined. that extreme notwithstanding, and though the pejorative use of the word exists, it has been far less abused than the barbs typical of the right, such as communist and hippie. it remains a very relevant word, certainly more so than commie was even at the height of the cold war. Well said, however, in point, ask a thousand folks on the street to define fascism, and I expect you'd not find a broad scale comprehension of the concept. Again, in contemporary parlance, fascist has no meaning, it's a simple negative term. And yeah, I about fell out of my chair when I heard chief autocrat Bush fling the new-speak meme, islamo-fascist. what a world what a world. :) On 5/5/08, Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Burck wrote: the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a philosophy, though they do discuss corporatism, production/productivism, and strong government intervention in favor of the economic elites. im(not so -h)o that has to do with the fact that it's a pejorative term that gets tossed about rather than an apt description. wikipedia is correct to focus on fascism as an economic/governmental philosophy, as that is what it is. Where the fascists and the corporate autocracy cross paths, folks jump for joy and scream fascisti! fascisti! when in point, it's a term that no longer has meaning, rather like nazi, commie, hippie, etc, ad nausium. On 5/5/08, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good URL Andy. Everyone should look at it. Most politicians seem to be a sick breed of cat. Power mad sociopaths. How they can be so toxic and not even have a hint of their pathology is beyond me. Kirk Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK .The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Hi Chip Keith Addison wrote: Hi Chip, Chris and all This is the famous Mussolini quote: Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini But Public Eye reckons he never said it. See: http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html Mussolini on the Corporate State Play it again Benito. :-) Such was my understanding. Benito, from what I've read, was basically a strong man thug type. Government philosophy wasn't one of his strong points. No. (But did he play the piano?) So what to call it then, if fascism's just an empty word these days? Chomsky calls it polyarchy: It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party. with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business. Not a good soundbyte word though, polyarchy, needs work... I like plutocracy myself. Corporate Oligarchy is good as well. Franklin, Jefferson et al, warned against corporations, and tried to set the base law of the US (aka the constitution) up so that corporations would be shackled in such a away as to avoid the wholly predictable rise of a corporate oligarchy. Indeed. Similar warnings from Adam Smith. Et al. The constitution didn't seem to stop them much though did it, from Rockefeller-J.P. Morgan etc up to now. I guess in the end it was for sale, like everything else - the 4th estate, for instance, owned by the interests it's supposed to be defending the public against (though, arguably, not any more). It's difficult or impossible to protect something like the American constitution these days, IMHO, or any of the rights and protections we're supposed to have. Very threadbare security blankets, cold comfort, as with everything decreed from on high. We have to start again, from the ground up, at the local level, making it stick where we live, networking to carry it further and beyond. Chomsky's spot on, of course, but I think he lends too much credence to the twin party system, Twins, yes - that's better than the two-party system. I'm not sure another term is needed. Polyarchy, plutocracy, corporate oligarchy are all jolly fine terms, but they're not built to roll easily and mindlessly from the tongue of an anchor at FauxTV. Fascist is much better, but they killed it with overuse. I'm sure they say Islamo-fascist easily and mindlessly enough. What a world, as you say. Corporateers is quite a good word, it sounds predatory, but it leaves out the government merger bit. Disaster capitalist is also quite good. Nah, needs work. But then again, he's the linguist, not me. :-) You don't do too badly. We Are The Ones We Have Been Waiting For; Find Your Work And Do It, It's Time. Verily. Regards Keith :) -- Best Keith Chris Burck wrote: well, when terms like islamo-fascist get slung about, yeah, you bet the meaning has been degraded. that's precisely the purpose for which such terms have been coined. that extreme notwithstanding, and though the pejorative use of the word exists, it has been far less abused than the barbs typical of the right, such as communist and hippie. it remains a very relevant word, certainly more so than commie was even at the height of the cold war. Well said, however, in point, ask a thousand folks on the street to define fascism, and I expect you'd not find a broad scale comprehension of the concept. Again, in contemporary parlance, fascist has no meaning, it's a simple negative term. And yeah, I about fell out of my chair when I heard chief autocrat Bush fling the new-speak meme, islamo-fascist. what a world what a world. :) On 5/5/08, Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Burck wrote: the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a philosophy, though they do discuss corporatism, production/productivism, and strong government intervention in favor of the economic elites. im(not so -h)o that has to do with the fact that it's a pejorative term that gets tossed about rather than an apt description. wikipedia is correct to focus on fascism as an economic/governmental philosophy, as that is what it is. Where the fascists and the
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
(oh, dear, you got me started. . .)how about corpiracy (inflicted on us by the neoprivateers-nice little double entendre)? probably not. too cutesy. if a new word emerges, it'll most likely come from the street. meanwhile, oligarchy works for me, too. that, or babylon. On 5/7/08, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Chip Keith Addison wrote: Hi Chip, Chris and all This is the famous Mussolini quote: Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini But Public Eye reckons he never said it. See: http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html Mussolini on the Corporate State Play it again Benito. :-) Such was my understanding. Benito, from what I've read, was basically a strong man thug type. Government philosophy wasn't one of his strong points. No. (But did he play the piano?) So what to call it then, if fascism's just an empty word these days? Chomsky calls it polyarchy: It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party. with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business. Not a good soundbyte word though, polyarchy, needs work... I like plutocracy myself. Corporate Oligarchy is good as well. Franklin, Jefferson et al, warned against corporations, and tried to set the base law of the US (aka the constitution) up so that corporations would be shackled in such a away as to avoid the wholly predictable rise of a corporate oligarchy. Indeed. Similar warnings from Adam Smith. Et al. The constitution didn't seem to stop them much though did it, from Rockefeller-J.P. Morgan etc up to now. I guess in the end it was for sale, like everything else - the 4th estate, for instance, owned by the interests it's supposed to be defending the public against (though, arguably, not any more). It's difficult or impossible to protect something like the American constitution these days, IMHO, or any of the rights and protections we're supposed to have. Very threadbare security blankets, cold comfort, as with everything decreed from on high. We have to start again, from the ground up, at the local level, making it stick where we live, networking to carry it further and beyond. Chomsky's spot on, of course, but I think he lends too much credence to the twin party system, Twins, yes - that's better than the two-party system. I'm not sure another term is needed. Polyarchy, plutocracy, corporate oligarchy are all jolly fine terms, but they're not built to roll easily and mindlessly from the tongue of an anchor at FauxTV. Fascist is much better, but they killed it with overuse. I'm sure they say Islamo-fascist easily and mindlessly enough. What a world, as you say. Corporateers is quite a good word, it sounds predatory, but it leaves out the government merger bit. Disaster capitalist is also quite good. Nah, needs work. But then again, he's the linguist, not me. :-) You don't do too badly. We Are The Ones We Have Been Waiting For; Find Your Work And Do It, It's Time. Verily. Regards Keith :) -- Best Keith Chris Burck wrote: well, when terms like islamo-fascist get slung about, yeah, you bet the meaning has been degraded. that's precisely the purpose for which such terms have been coined. that extreme notwithstanding, and though the pejorative use of the word exists, it has been far less abused than the barbs typical of the right, such as communist and hippie. it remains a very relevant word, certainly more so than commie was even at the height of the cold war. Well said, however, in point, ask a thousand folks on the street to define fascism, and I expect you'd not find a broad scale comprehension of the concept. Again, in contemporary parlance, fascist has no meaning, it's a simple negative term. And yeah, I about fell out of my chair when I heard chief autocrat Bush fling the new-speak meme, islamo-fascist. what a world what a world. :) On 5/5/08, Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Burck wrote: the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Chris Burck wrote: well, when terms like islamo-fascist get slung about, yeah, you bet the meaning has been degraded. that's precisely the purpose for which such terms have been coined. that extreme notwithstanding, and though the pejorative use of the word exists, it has been far less abused than the barbs typical of the right, such as communist and hippie. it remains a very relevant word, certainly more so than commie was even at the height of the cold war. Well said, however, in point, ask a thousand folks on the street to define fascism, and I expect you'd not find a broad scale comprehension of the concept. Again, in contemporary parlance, fascist has no meaning, it's a simple negative term. And yeah, I about fell out of my chair when I heard chief autocrat Bush fling the new-speak meme, islamo-fascist. what a world what a world. :) On 5/5/08, Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Burck wrote: the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a philosophy, though they do discuss corporatism, production/productivism, and strong government intervention in favor of the economic elites. im(not so -h)o that has to do with the fact that it's a pejorative term that gets tossed about rather than an apt description. wikipedia is correct to focus on fascism as an economic/governmental philosophy, as that is what it is. Where the fascists and the corporate autocracy cross paths, folks jump for joy and scream fascisti! fascisti! when in point, it's a term that no longer has meaning, rather like nazi, commie, hippie, etc, ad nausium. On 5/5/08, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good URL Andy. Everyone should look at it. Most politicians seem to be a sick breed of cat. Power mad sociopaths. How they can be so toxic and not even have a hint of their pathology is beyond me. Kirk Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK .The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080504/4f7b3e4d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080505/c91b4ff9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Hi Chip, Chris and all This is the famous Mussolini quote: Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini But Public Eye reckons he never said it. See: http://www.publiceye.org/fascist/corporatism.html Mussolini on the Corporate State Play it again Benito. :-) So what to call it then, if fascism's just an empty word these days? Chomsky calls it polyarchy: It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party. with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business. Not a good soundbyte word though, polyarchy, needs work... Best Keith Chris Burck wrote: well, when terms like islamo-fascist get slung about, yeah, you bet the meaning has been degraded. that's precisely the purpose for which such terms have been coined. that extreme notwithstanding, and though the pejorative use of the word exists, it has been far less abused than the barbs typical of the right, such as communist and hippie. it remains a very relevant word, certainly more so than commie was even at the height of the cold war. Well said, however, in point, ask a thousand folks on the street to define fascism, and I expect you'd not find a broad scale comprehension of the concept. Again, in contemporary parlance, fascist has no meaning, it's a simple negative term. And yeah, I about fell out of my chair when I heard chief autocrat Bush fling the new-speak meme, islamo-fascist. what a world what a world. :) On 5/5/08, Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Burck wrote: the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a philosophy, though they do discuss corporatism, production/productivism, and strong government intervention in favor of the economic elites. im(not so -h)o that has to do with the fact that it's a pejorative term that gets tossed about rather than an apt description. wikipedia is correct to focus on fascism as an economic/governmental philosophy, as that is what it is. Where the fascists and the corporate autocracy cross paths, folks jump for joy and scream fascisti! fascisti! when in point, it's a term that no longer has meaning, rather like nazi, commie, hippie, etc, ad nausium. On 5/5/08, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good URL Andy. Everyone should look at it. Most politicians seem to be a sick breed of cat. Power mad sociopaths. How they can be so toxic and not even have a hint of their pathology is beyond me. Kirk Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK .The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? -- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Hello Kurt I am too lazy to double check myself! Lazier than that I think, totally fast asleep maybe. You honestly think (?) Islam is an idea that's in a moral decline? LOL! How else could you define a government that recognizes, and enforces, Sharia Law? Wise? http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19818.htm Islamic Finance, by Loretta Napoleoni, 26/04/08 ICH -- -- Islamic finance has become the fastest-growing, most dynamic sector of global finance. Every Western-style financial product has its sharia, i.e. Islamic law, compliant instrument: microfinance, mortgages, oil and gas exploration, bridge building, even sponsorship of sporting events. Islamic finance is innovative, flexible, and potentially very profitable. Operating in 70 countries with about $500bn in assets, it is poised to expand geometrically. With more than one billion Muslims eager to support it, analysts project that this system will soon manage approximately 4 percent of the world economy, equivalent to $1 trillion in assets. Such figures explain the eagerness of Western banks to tap into sharia financial services. Citigroup, along with many other Western banking retailers, have opened Islamic branches in Muslim countries. [more] How would you define a government that's married to militarism and violence on the one hand and chasing the End Times Armageddon on the other? Laziness and sloppy, blinkered thinking is not welcome here. If you can't do better than this blind and prejudiced crap then go away. Keith Fascism is repeatedly defined as mass movements concerned with ideas of religious, cultural, ethnic, or national implications. Fascism is founded in the idea that one or more of these ideas is in a moral decline, and therefore the state needs to usurp individual power in order to right the ship. This seems to me to be exactly what is occurring in Saudia Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Indonesia, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan, to name a few. The term islamo-fascism seems to me to be extraordinarily appropriate. Hitler and Mussolini created a nationalistic version of fascism. Ahmadinejad, for instance, in Iran is actively creating a religious version. How else could you define a government that recognizes, and enforces, Sharia Law? I agree that few people on the street truly understand the definiton of fascism, and therefore the term is typically used as a default perjorative to describe those governments in opposition to the US government. However, just because the term is not well understood does not make its correct use inappropriate. As a side note, I am not sure if the countries I listed all enforce Sharia Law. I apologize if I got that information incorrect. I am too lazy to double check myself! I do agree that the US is slipping into a nationalistic version of fascism. This is why it is important to celebrate other country's successes, to show that the US way is not always the best, or right way. Kurt Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 21:28:30 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080504/4f7b3e4d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Good URL Andy. Everyone should look at it. Most politicians seem to be a sick breed of cat. Power mad sociopaths. How they can be so toxic and not even have a hint of their pathology is beyond me. Kirk Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK .The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080504/4f7b3e4d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080505/c91b4ff9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a philosophy, though they do discuss corporatism, production/productivism, and strong government intervention in favor of the economic elites. On 5/5/08, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good URL Andy. Everyone should look at it. Most politicians seem to be a sick breed of cat. Power mad sociopaths. How they can be so toxic and not even have a hint of their pathology is beyond me. Kirk Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK .The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080504/4f7b3e4d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080505/c91b4ff9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Chris Burck wrote: the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a philosophy, though they do discuss corporatism, production/productivism, and strong government intervention in favor of the economic elites. im(not so -h)o that has to do with the fact that it's a pejorative term that gets tossed about rather than an apt description. wikipedia is correct to focus on fascism as an economic/governmental philosophy, as that is what it is. Where the fascists and the corporate autocracy cross paths, folks jump for joy and scream fascisti! fascisti! when in point, it's a term that no longer has meaning, rather like nazi, commie, hippie, etc, ad nausium. On 5/5/08, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good URL Andy. Everyone should look at it. Most politicians seem to be a sick breed of cat. Power mad sociopaths. How they can be so toxic and not even have a hint of their pathology is beyond me. Kirk Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK .The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080504/4f7b3e4d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080505/c91b4ff9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water - Public Key http://www.well.com/user/cpm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
well, when terms like islamo-fascist get slung about, yeah, you bet the meaning has been degraded. that's precisely the purpose for which such terms have been coined. that extreme notwithstanding, and though the pejorative use of the word exists, it has been far less abused than the barbs typical of the right, such as communist and hippie. it remains a very relevant word, certainly more so than commie was even at the height of the cold war. On 5/5/08, Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Burck wrote: the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a philosophy, though they do discuss corporatism, production/productivism, and strong government intervention in favor of the economic elites. im(not so -h)o that has to do with the fact that it's a pejorative term that gets tossed about rather than an apt description. wikipedia is correct to focus on fascism as an economic/governmental philosophy, as that is what it is. Where the fascists and the corporate autocracy cross paths, folks jump for joy and scream fascisti! fascisti! when in point, it's a term that no longer has meaning, rather like nazi, commie, hippie, etc, ad nausium. On 5/5/08, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good URL Andy. Everyone should look at it. Most politicians seem to be a sick breed of cat. Power mad sociopaths. How they can be so toxic and not even have a hint of their pathology is beyond me. Kirk Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK .The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080504/4f7b3e4d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080505/c91b4ff9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Chip Mefford Before Enlightenment; chop wood carry water After Enlightenment; chop wood carry water
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Just to make a point, I was reading the ask Umbra column at Grist magazine. She was re-answering a question about lead in container grown (urban) gardens. She goes on talking about the (U.S.) government's knowledge that lead was unhealthy used in gasoline (and paint) but was allowed because it was good for commerce. That, is corporatism mixed with government. Making profits at the expense of the general population. And who pays for any sickness from this? The public. http://grist.org/advice/ask/2008/05/05/?source=ask -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chip Mefford Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 3:52 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again Chris Burck wrote: the wiki articles place too much emphasis imho on fascism as a philosophy, though they do discuss corporatism, production/productivism, and strong government intervention in favor of the economic elites. im(not so -h)o that has to do with the fact that it's a pejorative term that gets tossed about rather than an apt description. wikipedia is correct to focus on fascism as an economic/governmental philosophy, as that is what it is. Where the fascists and the corporate autocracy cross paths, folks jump for joy and scream fascisti! fascisti! when in point, it's a term that no longer has meaning, rather like nazi, commie, hippie, etc, ad nausium. On 5/5/08, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good URL Andy. Everyone should look at it. Most politicians seem to be a sick breed of cat. Power mad sociopaths. How they can be so toxic and not even have a hint of their pathology is beyond me. Kirk Andy Karpay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason Wikipedia definition of fascism has lost its references to merging corporatism with the state (it's what I don't like about Wikipedia). However, some common threads can be seen here. 14 Points of fascism: The warning signs http://oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm AK .The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080504/4f7b3e4d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080505/c91b4ff9/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fascists at it again
The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone --- Benito Mussolini The fascist rat bags who think themselves our betters are now promoting their pharma income. The state is a myth. Mussolini got what all good fascists deserve. Basically these people will rule you into the ground if you let them Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was that fascist as in /extreme/ nationalism? Or is that fascist as in pejorative label applied to things we don't like, without any real definition or meaning? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080504/4f7b3e4d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
