Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
I can tell you who wouldn't notice in any case: that guy driving the SUV in front me this morning, whose kids were using the rear seat for a trampoline. And also my neighbor down the street who drives her SUV with her baby variously seated or standing in her lap. You are right, Keith, about there being no direct connection between vehicle size and safety. It has a lot more to do with the number of functioning neurons in the driver's brain. Some heavier cars are so stiff that they transfer the force of a collision to the occupants; a well-designed lighter vehicle will crumple (by design) to absorb the force of impact without transferring it so directly it to the occupants. Features such as low center of gravity and optimum weight balance, along with anti-lock brakes, redundant brake lines, full-time all-wheel drive, etc., are probably better indicators of safety than sheer mass. These active safety features are no substitute for passive safety features but there isn't a driver on the road who wouldn't prefer avoiding an accident to surviving one. I used to do a lot of writing for Subaru and remember how their vehicles became safer, quieter, more powerful and more fuel-efficient as they shed weight. I'm sure it is pretty much the same with most other manufacturers as well. Perhaps people fixated on mass as a safety enhancer only need to put on a few hundred pounds of fat to be better protected in any auto . . . Christopher Witmer Tokyo Keith Addison wrote: Quite a large proportion of Japanese cars are REALLY small (not exported). I've driven a couple of them, they're pretty cool. Nippy, you can get away. But, on the roads, here as elsewhere, you also get a lot of big cars, a lot of vans, delivery vehicles, trucks, big heavies. If this BS about small cars were true, if it had any reality at all, the Japanese would most definitely have noticed it some while back. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
This 4X4 enthusiast/nutcase's $0.02: aaarrgh!! When I hear about these kids using the backseat of an SUV or baby standing of her lap in a SUV ... it makes me puke. Here these people are ... making a total idiot of themselves ... when all along, calling themselves (by their vehicle choice) ... an SUV'er. Giving the whole concept of SUV or worse ... 4X4'ing ... an image of stupidity ... or ignorance. To me, it would be the same as though (on the news) there were these stupid lawsuits about it's McDonald's fault that I'm fat -n- overweight ... and then having the gall to reveal his last (family) name to be Witmer ... or Addison. The whole world laughs and redicules this guy ... and then proceeds to say ... ALL these Witmer's ... or ALL these Addison's ... they're ALL so STUPID. Now when Keith and Christopher go to the grocery store .. and sign their name on a check ... the store clerk (who recently saw the news last night) LOOKS A THEM FUNNY (or gives them a funny look). Just cause of their name!!! I really hate that!! People, in my opinion, need to realize that whatever they do, reflects ... not only on themselves .. but also on their family's last name ... on their friends ... on groups they belong to ... on their church they attend ... on their company ... and on their country as a whole. Btw, on the issue on automobile crumpling ... I understand what it's for. However, I feel it to be such a waste. 'Cause now you've gotta throw the car away. Too bad there wasn't a way to make the Car as a whole SOLID AS A ROCK ... but yet have some cheap, throw away liner on the inside that one removes after a collision ... throws away ... and replaces with a new one ... for $5.00. That way, the majority of the car can be saved. Just a thought. my $0.02, Curtis --- Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can tell you who wouldn't notice in any case: that guy driving the SUV in front me this morning, whose kids were using the rear seat for a trampoline. And also my neighbor down the street who drives her SUV with her baby variously seated or standing in her lap. You are right, Keith, about there being no direct connection between vehicle size and safety. It has a lot more to do with the number of functioning neurons in the driver's brain. Some heavier cars are so stiff that they transfer the force of a collision to the occupants; a well-designed lighter vehicle will crumple (by design) to absorb the force of impact without transferring it so directly it to the occupants. = Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
SUV [lack of] mindsets was Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
Used to be that an SUV was completely synonymous with a Chevy Suburban (a misnomer back then, but completely appropo today) and a crew of 8-10 oilfield workers, fire fighters or surveyors going out to or coming in from the field. Now an SUV is synonymous with anything from a 1st year college student needing room for multiple frat boys and kegs to a Lacrosse Mom (Cricket Moms in other countries). Here's the really funny part. One can fold up the rear seats of a VW Golf and achieve more cargo room than most SUVs. Put a diesel in with the front wheel drive and it can travel 90% of the places a 2 wheel drive pickup can with double or better the fuel economy. Personal opiniion? Keep the sport in automotive confined to the race tracks, take the S out of SUV and put the vehicle back into perspective and its intended use. When Lexus and Mercedes start market UVs you know the auto industry took a wrong turn. (Odd how you don't see too many a Lexus out rutting it through the mud on the farm or hauling firewood to the cabin.) $25,000 - $45,000 - the cost of 25-50 acres, an old farmhouse and a mule - is a bit of a sacrificial exchange for quick trips to the corner mart for disposable diapers. It's also a primary indicator of how foolish and/or ignorant most consumers are as to their own economic picture and future security. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer This 4X4 enthusiast/nutcase's $0.02: aaarrgh!! When I hear about these kids using the backseat of an SUV or baby standing of her lap in a SUV ... it makes me puke. Here these people are ... making a total idiot of themselves ... when all along, calling themselves (by their vehicle choice) ... an SUV'er. Giving the whole concept of SUV or worse ... 4X4'ing ... an image of stupidity ... or ignorance. To me, it would be the same as though (on the news) there were these stupid lawsuits about it's McDonald's fault that I'm fat -n- overweight ... and then having the gall to reveal his last (family) name to be Witmer ... or Addison. The whole world laughs and redicules this guy ... and then proceeds to say ... ALL these Witmer's ... or ALL these Addison's ... they're ALL so STUPID. Now when Keith and Christopher go to the grocery store .. and sign their name on a check ... the store clerk (who recently saw the news last night) LOOKS A THEM FUNNY (or gives them a funny look). Just cause of their name!!! I really hate that!! People, in my opinion, need to realize that whatever they do, reflects ... not only on themselves .. but also on their family's last name ... on their friends ... on groups they belong to ... on their church they attend ... on their company ... and on their country as a whole. Btw, on the issue on automobile crumpling ... I understand what it's for. However, I feel it to be such a waste. 'Cause now you've gotta throw the car away. Too bad there wasn't a way to make the Car as a whole SOLID AS A ROCK ... but yet have some cheap, throw away liner on the inside that one removes after a collision ... throws away ... and replaces with a new one ... for $5.00. That way, the majority of the car can be saved. Just a thought. my $0.02, Curtis --- Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can tell you who wouldn't notice in any case: that guy driving the SUV in front me this morning, whose kids were using the rear seat for a trampoline. And also my neighbor down the street who drives her SUV with her baby variously seated or standing in her lap. You are right, Keith, about there being no direct connection between vehicle size and safety. It has a lot more to do with the number of functioning neurons in the driver's brain. Some heavier cars are so stiff that they transfer the force of a collision to the occupants; a well-designed lighter vehicle will crumple (by design) to absorb the force of impact without transferring it so directly it to the occupants. = Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Click here to find your contact lenses! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey
Re: SUV [lack of] mindsets was Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
I've always thought this way, but, try and find a UV without leather seats, is almost impossable. You should be able to open the door, take out the seat ( with out to much fuss ), then take a hose and wash out the inside. that is a real UV. Forget the bucket seats, give me a good old fashion bench seat with belts and a heavy cloth cover, any day. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 10:09 Subject: SUV [lack of] mindsets was Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer Used to be that an SUV was completely synonymous with a Chevy Suburban (a misnomer back then, but completely appropo today) and a crew of 8-10 oilfield workers, fire fighters or surveyors going out to or coming in from the field. Now an SUV is synonymous with anything from a 1st year college student needing room for multiple frat boys and kegs to a Lacrosse Mom (Cricket Moms in other countries). Here's the really funny part. One can fold up the rear seats of a VW Golf and achieve more cargo room than most SUVs. Put a diesel in with the front wheel drive and it can travel 90% of the places a 2 wheel drive pickup can with double or better the fuel economy. Personal opiniion? Keep the sport in automotive confined to the race tracks, take the S out of SUV and put the vehicle back into perspective and its intended use. When Lexus and Mercedes start market UVs you know the auto industry took a wrong turn. (Odd how you don't see too many a Lexus out rutting it through the mud on the farm or hauling firewood to the cabin.) $25,000 - $45,000 - the cost of 25-50 acres, an old farmhouse and a mule - is a bit of a sacrificial exchange for quick trips to the corner mart for disposable diapers. It's also a primary indicator of how foolish and/or ignorant most consumers are as to their own economic picture and future security. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Curtis Sakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer This 4X4 enthusiast/nutcase's $0.02: aaarrgh!! When I hear about these kids using the backseat of an SUV or baby standing of her lap in a SUV ... it makes me puke. Here these people are ... making a total idiot of themselves ... when all along, calling themselves (by their vehicle choice) ... an SUV'er. Giving the whole concept of SUV or worse ... 4X4'ing ... an image of stupidity ... or ignorance. To me, it would be the same as though (on the news) there were these stupid lawsuits about it's McDonald's fault that I'm fat -n- overweight ... and then having the gall to reveal his last (family) name to be Witmer ... or Addison. The whole world laughs and redicules this guy ... and then proceeds to say ... ALL these Witmer's ... or ALL these Addison's ... they're ALL so STUPID. Now when Keith and Christopher go to the grocery store .. and sign their name on a check ... the store clerk (who recently saw the news last night) LOOKS A THEM FUNNY (or gives them a funny look). Just cause of their name!!! I really hate that!! People, in my opinion, need to realize that whatever they do, reflects ... not only on themselves .. but also on their family's last name ... on their friends ... on groups they belong to ... on their church they attend ... on their company ... and on their country as a whole. Btw, on the issue on automobile crumpling ... I understand what it's for. However, I feel it to be such a waste. 'Cause now you've gotta throw the car away. Too bad there wasn't a way to make the Car as a whole SOLID AS A ROCK ... but yet have some cheap, throw away liner on the inside that one removes after a collision ... throws away ... and replaces with a new one ... for $5.00. That way, the majority of the car can be saved. Just a thought. my $0.02, Curtis --- Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can tell you who wouldn't notice in any case: that guy driving the SUV in front me this morning, whose kids were using the rear seat for a trampoline. And also my neighbor down the street who drives her SUV with her baby variously seated or standing in her lap. You are right, Keith, about there being no direct connection between vehicle size and safety. It has a lot more to do with the number of functioning neurons in the driver's brain. Some heavier cars are so stiff that they transfer the force of a collision to the occupants; a well-designed lighter vehicle will crumple (by design) to absorb the force of impact without transferring it so directly it to the occupants. = Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands
Re: SUV [lack of] mindsets was Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 03:07, you wrote: I've always thought this way, but, try and find a UV without leather seats, is almost impossable. You should be able to open the door, take out the seat ( with out to much fuss ), then take a hose and wash out the inside. that is a real UV. Forget the bucket seats, give me a good old fashion bench seat with belts and a heavy cloth cover, any day. Greg H. Long way from Bd, but here goes: I think one of the underrated vehicles is the fastback hatch. They made a model Holden in the 70's that had a sloping rear, the rear hinged up. It was possible to put a good sized refrigerator in the back. (Unfortunately not diesel) There was a vehicle designed like this in the 50's in the US (I remember an article in Popular Mechanics I think) regards Doug PS Buy a French car to see the max use of space. (I have a Peugeot 405SRDT) Second Gripe: Could we please institute a policy to edit the previous emails to only reflect the pertinent points. When you keep the adds in as well - then we are talking real wasted bandwith! (Doug getting off soapbox) - do you understand what this means in Amerispeak?? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
Curtis, I can't speak for others, but for me, the mere fact of SUV ownership doesn't send any signals about the individual behind the wheel, at least none that I'm consciously aware of. Lots of people own all sorts of cars for what seem to me to be the wrong reasons, but just about every car on the road also seems to me to have its legitimate application (and I am well aware that roughly 100% of other drivers couldn't care less whether I approve their car choice in any case). I gave examples of idiot SUV drivers, but I could have given similar examples for just about any category of car out there. Every day on the road in Tokyo I see candidates for the Darwin awards. (The Japanese drivers' saving grace is their courtesy and relative lack of road rage. A little bit of gentility covers a multitude of evils . . . but no amount of courtesy is going to help those unrestrained little kids in an accident. And any driver so thoughtless or stupid as to allow his kids to become crash test dummies probably doesn't care how his actions reflect on any larger category of people to which he belongs.) In my opinion, a bigger problem than vehicle type per se is poor maintenance. I feel like donning a gas mask when I drive behind vehicles spewing streams of black or grey smoke. (The Japanese have a solution to that problem too: junk the car and buy a new one.) In the end, the biggest motor vehicle safety and pollution problem lies between the ears of the owner/driver. Christopher Witmer Tokyo Curtis Sakima wrote: This 4X4 enthusiast/nutcase's $0.02: aaarrgh!! When I hear about these kids using the backseat of an SUV or baby standing of her lap in a SUV ... it makes me puke. Here these people are ... making a total idiot of themselves ... when all along, calling themselves (by their vehicle choice) ... an SUV'er. Giving the whole concept of SUV or worse ... 4X4'ing ... an image of stupidity ... or ignorance. People, in my opinion, need to realize that whatever they do, reflects ... not only on themselves .. but also on their family's last name ... on their friends ... on groups they belong to ... on their church they attend ... on their company ... and on their country as a whole. Btw, on the issue on automobile crumpling ... I understand what it's for. However, I feel it to be such a waste. 'Cause now you've gotta throw the car away. Too bad there wasn't a way to make the Car as a whole SOLID AS A ROCK ... but yet have some cheap, throw away liner on the inside that one removes after a collision ... throws away ... and replaces with a new one ... for $5.00. That way, the majority of the car can be saved. Just a thought. my $0.02, Curtis --- Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can tell you who wouldn't notice in any case: that guy driving the SUV in front me this morning, whose kids were using the rear seat for a trampoline. And also my neighbor down the street who drives her SUV with her baby variously seated or standing in her lap. You are right, Keith, about there being no direct connection between vehicle size and safety. It has a lot more to do with the number of functioning neurons in the driver's brain. Some heavier cars are so stiff that they transfer the force of a collision to the occupants; a well-designed lighter vehicle will crumple (by design) to absorb the force of impact without transferring it so directly it to the occupants. = Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
Christopher: I can't speak for others, but for me, the mere fact of SUV ownership doesn't send any signals about the individual behind the wheel, at least none that I'm consciously aware of. Curtis: You're probably right ... but (to me anyways), it seems like (sometimes) comments get made on this list that imply that (to some people anyways) ... it does. And when that happens, I react by simply commenting, NOT ALL SUV'er/4X4'er ... mind you ... not ALL!! Cause remember ... ALL include's me now .. the 4X4 nutcase!! And I do try very hard!! To be safe/economical/fuel efficient by not always grabbin' the SUV as the first vehicle to reverse out of the driveway. Only when I need to for some reason. I do try. Christopher: Lots of people own all sorts of cars for what seem to me to be the wrong reasons,. Curtis: yeah (sigh) .. Christopher: I gave examples of idiot SUV drivers, but I could have given similar examples for just about any category of car out there. -snip- In the end, the biggest motor vehicle safety and pollution problem lies between the ears of the owner/driver. Curtis: INDEED!! Curtis = Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL __ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
Hello M Is anyone else bothered by their insistence on the validity of counting other drivers' deaths? I think the folks who were claiming SUV's were safer for themselves and their families clearly were not talking about any concern for the other car. Right or wrong, it's clearly different from what they were saying, IMO. Other drivers' lives and deaths are certainly valid, IMO. But that's not all they say, they cover the SUV drivers' concern for themselves too: The first major result Ross and Wenzel found is that SUVs are no safer for their drivers than cars. I think this study is moving in the right direction, in an area that's seen a lot of spin and sheer BS up to now. Round about the time of the CAFE standards debacle, someone posted a couple of links offered as proof that small cars are dangerous. I thought the argument might be because US cars are generally big and the little guys would stand less chance in a collision with a bigger car, which does make some sort of inverted sense I suppose. But: Fact: In 1997, latest-available government data, 56% of small-car fatalities involved only small cars: 46% from single-car crashes, 10% from small cars running into each other. Just 1% of small-car deaths in 1997 involved collisions with midsize and large SUVs -- 136 out of 12,144 total small-car deaths that year. 46% from single-car crashes - they just up and crash on you all of sudden, go mad and hit a tree or something. Nothing to do with collisions with heavies - they're INHERENTLY more dangerous. And indeed, that's what was claimed. I don't much care what the US statistics say, if that's what they say, but that idea would be met with derision in most places, especially Europe or Japan. If that were true, the Europeans and the Japanese wouldn't maybe have noticed it by now? They're not exactly thick. Quite a large proportion of Japanese cars are REALLY small (not exported). I've driven a couple of them, they're pretty cool. Nippy, you can get away. But, on the roads, here as elsewhere, you also get a lot of big cars, a lot of vans, delivery vehicles, trucks, big heavies. If this BS about small cars were true, if it had any reality at all, the Japanese would most definitely have noticed it some while back. Someone else on the list said: The actuarial statistics are quite clear: bigger IS safer. Actually it's not quite clear at all, it's as fuzzy as hell. I suppose you can read the numbers that way, and it seems some insurance folks have done that, but you can read them the other way too, and what emerges is that it's not clear, it needs more research. These are very sweeping statements. Sure, cars need to be safer, and you need some measurements to assess that. But that hasn't been the purpose with this stuff, it's spin - seek whence it stems and you find the guilty party/parties. There are many factors involved in safety, and I think this new study begins to address that at last. I looked at a couple of crash test sites and so on, and found that more and more small cars are getting high safety ratings - but the same applies to medium and large cars. It looked like CARS, never mind what size, are dangerous but getting less so. So what they say about quality rings true. Best Keith On Wed, 7 Aug 2002 04:21:33 +0900, you wrote: http://ens-news.com/ens/jul2002/2002-07-29-09.asp ens Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer ANN ARBOR, Michigan, July 29, 2002 (ENS) - More quality, not more weight, may make vehicles safer, say researchers from the University of Michigan and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL). The study counters car industry warnings that tighter emissions and fuel efficiency requirements would force the production of smaller, lighter - and less safe - vehicles. Physicist Marc Ross and LBML scientist Tom Wenzel have released a report showing that vehicle quality is a better predictor of safety - both for the driver and for other drivers - than vehicle size and weight. Recent Senate hearings on Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards focused on the increased risk Americans would face if they had to give up their sport utility vehicles (SUVs) for vehicles that weigh less. We set out to see whether that risk is real, whether SUVs really are safer than cars. The answer, by and large, is no, Ross said. The first major result Ross and Wenzel found is that SUVs are no safer for their drivers than cars. Popular midsize cars, minivans and import luxury cars have the safest records, while SUVs are about as risky as the average midsize or large car, and are no safer than many compact and subcompact models. The researchers defined risk as the number of deaths per year per million vehicles. Other studies have not considered combined risk, which looks at both risk to the driver of the model in question and risk to the drivers of all other vehicles involved in crashes with that model. The study found
Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
Well, I'm the 4X4 nutcase of the group (as everyone unfortunately knows!!) and I'll be the first to argue against the bigger is safer mentality!! Safety (to me anyways) is first and foremost the factor of the driver. In my opinion, the same idiot who was caught speeding around the turn and flipped over his SUV is the SAME PERSON who last week banged up his economy sedan trying to take it off roading. It's due to a person not understanding the physics involved in ANY vehicle that he (or she) owns .. and as a result, uses the vehicle (unfortunately) inappropriately. regrettfully, Curtis --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone else on the list said: The actuarial statistics are quite clear: bigger IS safer. -snip--- These are very sweeping statements. Sure, cars need to be safer, and you need some measurements to assess that. But that hasn't been the purpose with this stuff, it's spin - seek whence it stems and you find the guilty party/parties. There are many factors involved in safety, and I think this new study begins to address that at last. = Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Access your PC just like Web Mail http://us.click.yahoo.com/r5uw2C/zncEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
Curtis Sakima wrote: Well, I'm the 4X4 nutcase of the group (as everyone unfortunately knows!!) and I'll be the first to argue against the bigger is safer mentality!! MH wrote: Before I slam 4x4s -- first a story. With fewer farmers and tractors in these parts a 4x4 pulled the ecomobile out of a wet, slippery ditch when the front wheel drive was unable to backup but had no problem seeking lower ground when given the gas. The college kids with their 4x4s immediately offered to pull my little bitty car right out. 15-20 years ago I'd walk to the nearest farm for a tractor pull but that little old Toyota 4x4 pickup truck did the trick nicely. This was last year when I found out when backing up the shoulder wasn't wide enough but since then the highway department widened the road and included a dual purpose tarmac pedestrian, bicycle lane. It sure is a pleasure to cycle on rather then gravel when the big rigs go by. Safety (to me anyways) is first and foremost the factor of the driver. In my opinion, the same idiot who was caught speeding around the turn and flipped over his SUV is the SAME PERSON who last week banged up his economy sedan trying to take it off roading. It's due to a person not understanding the physics involved in ANY vehicle that he (or she) owns .. and as a result, uses the vehicle (unfortunately) inappropriately. regrettfully, Curtis Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/it_ffB/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer
Is anyone else bothered by their insistence on the validity of counting other drivers' deaths? I think the folks who were claiming SUV's were safer for themselves and their families clearly were not talking about any concern for the other car. Right or wrong, it's clearly different from what they were saying, IMO. On Wed, 7 Aug 2002 04:21:33 +0900, you wrote: http://ens-news.com/ens/jul2002/2002-07-29-09.asp ens Heavier Vehicles Not Always Safer ANN ARBOR, Michigan, July 29, 2002 (ENS) - More quality, not more weight, may make vehicles safer, say researchers from the University of Michigan and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (LBNL). The study counters car industry warnings that tighter emissions and fuel efficiency requirements would force the production of smaller, lighter - and less safe - vehicles. Physicist Marc Ross and LBML scientist Tom Wenzel have released a report showing that vehicle quality is a better predictor of safety - both for the driver and for other drivers - than vehicle size and weight. Recent Senate hearings on Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards focused on the increased risk Americans would face if they had to give up their sport utility vehicles (SUVs) for vehicles that weigh less. We set out to see whether that risk is real, whether SUVs really are safer than cars. The answer, by and large, is no, Ross said. The first major result Ross and Wenzel found is that SUVs are no safer for their drivers than cars. Popular midsize cars, minivans and import luxury cars have the safest records, while SUVs are about as risky as the average midsize or large car, and are no safer than many compact and subcompact models. The researchers defined risk as the number of deaths per year per million vehicles. Other studies have not considered combined risk, which looks at both risk to the driver of the model in question and risk to the drivers of all other vehicles involved in crashes with that model. The study found that, when measuring the combined risk, most cars are safer than SUVs, while pickup trucks are much less safe than all other types of vehicle. Clearly the characteristics of the drivers of certain types of vehicles also have a strong effect on their safety, Ross said. However, it is not clear exactly what that effect is, and the age and sex of drivers do not fully explain these results. Some of the safest subcompacts also have a high fraction of young male drivers. At the other extreme, elderly drivers dominate certain large cars but there is no clear pattern suggesting that those cars pose higher risk to drivers of other cars as a result. To determine quality, Ross and Wenzel used quantifiable parameters such as new car price, used car price, Consumer Reports safety ratings, and country of origin. It is extremely difficult to determine the inherent safety of a vehicle type or model because it is too hard to separate the contribution of driver characteristics and behavior from the contribution of vehicle design. We can say, however, that quality is a much better predictor of safety than weight, Ross said. It turns out that relatively inexpensive light cars do tend to be unsafe, but more expensive light cars are much safer, and are as safe as heavier cars and SUV models, Ross explained. In any event, the argument that lowering the weight of cars to achieve high fuel economy has resulted in excess deaths is unfounded. If designers pay careful attention to safety in vehicle design, smaller cars can be, and indeed have been, made as safe as larger ones. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Access your PC just like Web Mail http://us.click.yahoo.com/r5uw2C/zncEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
