Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Hi, Frederik Ramm wrote: we're thinking about importing post code areas in Germany. Are post code areas being mapped in other countries already, and if so, using what tagging schema? Thank you for the replies. I have one last question. I believe that Germany is not unique in sometimes using roads as post code boundaries, with houses on one side having post code A, and houses on the other side having post code B. Suppose that one were to create a multipolygon for such a post code area; how should it be done? Or turning the question around- if you looked at OSM data and you found that two neighbouring postcode areas were using a road as their boundary, would you automatically assume that houses on one side belong to one and houses on the other side belong to the other? (If *all* houses on the street belonged to one of the two post codes, then the boundary could not be the street but would have to be offset a bit.) Or is this something that would have to be tagged specially? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:52:47 +0200, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Frederik Ramm wrote: we're thinking about importing post code areas in Germany. Are post code areas being mapped in other countries already, and if so, using what tagging schema? Thank you for the replies. I have one last question. I believe that Germany is not unique in sometimes using roads as post code boundaries, with houses on one side having post code A, and houses on the other side having post code B. Suppose that one were to create a multipolygon for such a post code area; how should it be done? Or turning the question around- if you looked at OSM data and you found that two neighbouring postcode areas were using a road as their boundary, would you automatically assume that houses on one side belong to one and houses on the other side belong to the other? (If *all* houses on the street belonged to one of the two post codes, then the boundary could not be the street but would have to be offset a bit.) Or is this something that would have to be tagged specially? In the Netherlands, most roads have a different postcode on the two sides of the roads if you take the complete postcode. Suppose the postcode is 1234 AB then 1234 is (a part of) a town and AB is (a part of) a road. So the left side of the road (usually the odd numbers) has 1234 AB, the right side of the road has 1234 AC. I would assume that the boundary is just that: different postcode on either side of the boundary, wherever that boundary is situated. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, John Smith wrote: I meant about street/town/city/county... since some postcodes are half a state in size... but never smaller than a suburb... We also have some Au postcodes which are whatever is left over, and the link is that they are serviced from the same main sorting centre. These cross State boundaries if that is the way the mail is dispatched. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
I don't know if the process is still going on, but a couple of years ago I read about a small Mexican town, just south of the US/Mexico border, that was actually getting its mail through the US Postal Service, as well as all road access being via the USA. This was in a stretch where the border was along the Rio Grande River. The river shifted from the channel north of the town to another channel south of town, washing out the road that had led to the Mexican town. The national border still runs along the old river bed north of town. --Original Message-- From: Liz Sender: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org To: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas Sent: Apr 5, 2010 10:11 PM On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, John Smith wrote: I meant about street/town/city/county... since some postcodes are half a state in size... but never smaller than a suburb... We also have some Au postcodes which are whatever is left over, and the link is that they are serviced from the same main sorting centre. These cross State boundaries if that is the way the mail is dispatched. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Le 01/04/2010 22:45, Someoneelse a écrit : Frederik Ramm wrote: ... Surely you would create a boundary relation that *uses* the way representing the river to construct the boundary - rather than tracing the boundary line over the river line and having two separate ways? Er, you might - but it doesn't seem to be universal practice! My practice is drawing a way over the river and sharing the nodes and include it ine the boundary relation (France - Swissland border on the river Doubs). My thought is one is a natural element that can move, the other is on paper, conventionnal, even if the convention sais the border is the river. -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Anthony wrote: Hi Frederik, What are the sources for the post code areas? How often are they updated? How are they defined (by reference to houses, by reference to geographical features, by lat/lon, something else)? Will this data be integrated into other OSM data, or is it basically just a separate layer? Looking at the post code data that has just been 'open sourced' by the UK government I am beginning to realise part of the problem here. We are trying to create a generic solution when in reality there are distinct differences country to country. How are they defined ... In the UK by a list of house numbers and names which the Post Office still maintains copyright on, so the OSOpenData 'postcode' information only has a lat/lon reference (codepoint), and NO address data. One can draw areas around the group of houses that form a postcode, but that is not the right way of handling them. The OSOpenData list needs to be augmented with a lower layer of 'house' objects. ANY boundary drawn around that group will be arbitrary From what I am seeing Canada works a similar way? But many other countries DO define an area for 'postcodes' which in reality are simply fairly large post areas defined as such, and do not (as yet) go down to define postcodes for smaller groups of buildings. The US ZIP code system has a nice hierarchy of AREA information? But even it's ZIP4 code is not 'defined' by reference to a simple list of house ID's Bottom line ... create 'areas' for information that is actually defined as an area, but keep finer detail in the format it is defined in? Returning to Frederik's original question ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_postal_codes_in_Germany on the whole covers it quite nicely. German post codes are defined by area - which do not match state boundaries. BUT a common aspect to all of this is the hierarchy of course detail, with - in the case of Germany - 10 areas each divided into 10 sub areas. Just like the UK has a number of large areas defined by letters or letter pairs, each of which is sub divide, BUT the 'areas' so defined only loosely enclose a number of individually identified properties. So we have a hierarchy of boundaries - which may or may not correspond to administrative boundaries - but which ARE as difficult to draw. Perhaps they do need their own 'layer' of data, the top rung of which is 'country' which then drills down through a set of larger and smaller post_boundary data. An 'international' post code would then be prefixed with the country code so that one knows exactly where in the world one is when adding a 'postcode' to a location? I have always maintained that we need hierarchic lists overlying the physical data so that one can search for locations in that tree, and postcode is just another fairly consistently defined tree? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Vincent Pottier wrote: Le 02/04/2010 09:01, Lester Caine a écrit : Looking at the post code data that has just been 'open sourced' by the UK government I am beginning to realise part of the problem here. We are trying to create a generic solution when in reality there are distinct differences country to country. How are they defined ... In the UK by a list of house numbers and names which the Post Office still maintains copyright on, so the OSOpenData 'postcode' information only has a lat/lon reference (codepoint), and NO address data. One can draw areas around the group of houses that form a postcode, but that is not the right way of handling them. The OSOpenData list needs to be augmented with a lower layer of 'house' objects. ANY boundary drawn around that group will be arbitrary In that case the postal_code_area relation would be a list of houses rather than a polygon. Actually that still needs to be agreed. Do you add the 'postcode' as a tag to each house, or just create a relation for a post code? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 2 April 2010 22:57, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Actually that still needs to be agreed. Do you add the 'postcode' as a tag to each house, or just create a relation for a post code? Depends how many houses I suppose, the more houses there are the efficient it would be to use a polygon as there will be less redundant information. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Do you add the 'postcode' as a tag to each house, or just create a relation for a post code? Neither. I let people look up postcodes using lookup tables, not maps. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 03:37:39AM +1000, John Smith wrote: From what I understand, in the UK postcodes refer to a street, at least in populated areas... More usually one side of a street. They can refer to a small residential area, one or both sides of a street, or a single large building. http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/content1?catId=400044mediaId=9200078 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcodes_in_the_United_Kingdom Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Anthony wrote: The actual areas are basically only useful for reverse geocoding (click a spot on the map and get the postal code). But whether or not that's even possible is highly dependent on whether or not the post office provides such information. For some post offices, such information is not meaningful. What is the postal code for the middle of a highway? Maybe there is one defined, which represents what the postal code would be if there were a post box there. But maybe there isn't. It depends on the post office. In the US, ZIP codes are really sets of points (addresses that get delivered to), not geographies. There are commercially available ZIP code boundaries that are made by a process of assigning plausible shapes that fit the points known to be in the ZIP codes. I suppose these are done with alpha shapes or maximum-margin or some similar algorithm. There's a lot of demand for ZIP code-indexed data in the US because everybody is familiar with them, and because they're roughly on the scale of marketing activities: you're likely to drive to stores that are in your ZIP code or nearby ZIP code. On the other hand, the more I learn about ZIP codes the more I learn how bad they are: for instance, ZIP codes are insufficient to determine a person's congressional district, commonly cross counties, and I'm aware of at least one ZIP code that spans two US states. ZIPs are also too big to do effective geodemographics: for instance, the ZIP code 14850 (most of Ithaca, NY) contains some very rich neighborhoods, some very white neighborhoods, and also some neighborhoods that are poor and minority. There are good commercial databases, however, that give geodemographic profiles at the census block or individual household level: enough that you could find out that the most of the 'rich' people in 14850 are college professors who don't spend ostentatiously so they wouldn't support a Nordstrom's or a Jaguar dealership. Personally I like the TIGER county shapes for spatial control in the US. These are accurate and tile nicely and, I find I that the union of several counties is generally a good proxy for the kind of 'semantic regions' that I work with... For instance, even if I'm targeting a city, the noosphere density falls off so much in the suburbs that the county is an effective boundary: and if something out in the 'burbs has that much 'interestingness' it's probably semantically associated with the city anyway. I'm currently establishing a spatial control system for the world and it's probably going to be based on second-level administrative divisions, though I've got good third-levels for a lot of interesting places. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Another thing to note. In the US, Zip Codes do change. In fact, due to closing post offices, the data is more volatile than it has been in a long time. David. On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 9:13 AM, Paul Houle p...@ontology2.com wrote: Anthony wrote: The actual areas are basically only useful for reverse geocoding (click a spot on the map and get the postal code). But whether or not that's even possible is highly dependent on whether or not the post office provides such information. For some post offices, such information is not meaningful. What is the postal code for the middle of a highway? Maybe there is one defined, which represents what the postal code would be if there were a post box there. But maybe there isn't. It depends on the post office. In the US, ZIP codes are really sets of points (addresses that get delivered to), not geographies. There are commercially available ZIP code boundaries that are made by a process of assigning plausible shapes that fit the points known to be in the ZIP codes. I suppose these are done with alpha shapes or maximum-margin or some similar algorithm. There's a lot of demand for ZIP code-indexed data in the US because everybody is familiar with them, and because they're roughly on the scale of marketing activities: you're likely to drive to stores that are in your ZIP code or nearby ZIP code. On the other hand, the more I learn about ZIP codes the more I learn how bad they are: for instance, ZIP codes are insufficient to determine a person's congressional district, commonly cross counties, and I'm aware of at least one ZIP code that spans two US states. ZIPs are also too big to do effective geodemographics: for instance, the ZIP code 14850 (most of Ithaca, NY) contains some very rich neighborhoods, some very white neighborhoods, and also some neighborhoods that are poor and minority. There are good commercial databases, however, that give geodemographic profiles at the census block or individual household level: enough that you could find out that the most of the 'rich' people in 14850 are college professors who don't spend ostentatiously so they wouldn't support a Nordstrom's or a Jaguar dealership. Personally I like the TIGER county shapes for spatial control in the US. These are accurate and tile nicely and, I find I that the union of several counties is generally a good proxy for the kind of 'semantic regions' that I work with... For instance, even if I'm targeting a city, the noosphere density falls off so much in the suburbs that the county is an effective boundary: and if something out in the 'burbs has that much 'interestingness' it's probably semantically associated with the city anyway. I'm currently establishing a spatial control system for the world and it's probably going to be based on second-level administrative divisions, though I've got good third-levels for a lot of interesting places. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Post code areas
Hi, we're thinking about importing post code areas in Germany. Are post code areas being mapped in other countries already, and if so, using what tagging schema? I was thinking of creating multipolygon boundary relations with boundary=post_code_area or so. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 1 April 2010 19:49, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: we're thinking about importing post code areas in Germany. Are post code areas being mapped in other countries already, and if so, using what tagging schema? We're using them in Australia, as for schema: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data and I created a style sheet to display progress and make it easy to see at a quick glance broken or not yet completed areas: http://maps.bigtincan.com/?z=4ll=-28.228,134.963layer=00BFF Also these are being imported manually to ensure good QA on the data, Franc who imported the suburb data produced .osm files and then using those in JOSM to compare existing boundaries that can be shared... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Hi, John Smith wrote: We're using them in Australia, as for schema: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data Hm. I'm somewhat reluctant to tag a post code boundary an administrative boundary. Our postal service is on its way to being a private enterprise now. Also these are being imported manually to ensure good QA on the data, Franc who imported the suburb data produced .osm files and then using those in JOSM to compare existing boundaries that can be shared... That's one thing we're contemplating. It is a bit difficult because of the relations involved (one boundary line is used by two neighouring relations, so anyone importing a region manually would have to check for already-imported regions around to share their boundary lines). But of course it also helps avoid problems. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Also hi Frederik Ramm schrieb: we're thinking about importing post code areas in Germany. Are post code areas being mapped in other countries already, and if so, using what tagging schema? +1 I was thinking of creating multipolygon boundary relations with boundary=post_code_area or so. In rural areas you often can use the administrative boundaries but in cities this often does not work, because the postcode boundaries differe to the suburb boundaries. I added the postcode to a associatedStreet relation using addr:postcode=* and split the relation in parts (one for each postcode) if there exists more then one. Cheers colliar -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEAREIAAYFAku0fQ0ACgkQalWTFLzqsCsScQCg3p3AMsqwqiKoC8phTgAIlHBf KAUAnjieRhrTGgKp0bJlwY9HHyF3ua30 =SsQ0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 1 April 2010 20:54, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hm. I'm somewhat reluctant to tag a post code boundary an administrative boundary. Our postal service is on its way to being a private enterprise now. It was like that before I came along, I don't know how much this was discussed before hand, I've just been adding missing postcodes etc. That's one thing we're contemplating. It is a bit difficult because of the relations involved (one boundary line is used by two neighouring relations, so anyone importing a region manually would have to check for already-imported regions around to share their boundary lines). But of course it also helps avoid problems. I believe some people have scripts that could possibly merge duplicate ways, but in the end we decided to do things manually since by the time we did extensive testing on scripts etc it would probably be just as quick to do things manually, especially since people have incorrectly merged boundaries and broken polygons etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 1 April 2010 21:13, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 April 2010 20:54, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hm. I'm somewhat reluctant to tag a post code boundary an administrative boundary. Our postal service is on its way to being a private enterprise now. It was like that before I came along, I don't know how much this was discussed before hand, I've just been adding missing postcodes etc. Forgot to mention that postcode boundaries share ways with suburb and even state boundaries so it can be useful in that respect... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:31 AM, colliar colliar4e...@aol.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Also hi Frederik Ramm schrieb: we're thinking about importing post code areas in Germany. Are post code areas being mapped in other countries already, and if so, using what tagging schema? +1 I was thinking of creating multipolygon boundary relations with boundary=post_code_area or so. In rural areas you often can use the administrative boundaries but in cities this often does not work, because the postcode boundaries differe to the suburb boundaries. I added the postcode to a associatedStreet relation using addr:postcode=* and split the relation in parts (one for each postcode) if there exists more then one. Canadian Postal Codes can indicate an entire small town, or a portion of a very large building. Suburban Postal Codes often refer to a dozen or so houses on one side of the street. Neighbours on the other side of the street, or across the back yard have a different postal code. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_codes_in_Canada#Components_of_a_postal_code ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
In the USA, postal-code (Zip code) boundaries don't necessarily correspond to other administrative boundaries, and are frequently adjusted by the Post Office to balance out the load on different local post offices. Also, real-estate developers sometimes get the Post Office to shift a Zip-code boundary so that a particular street or neighborhood will be in a more-prestigious Zip code. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:17:45 To: Frederik Rammfrede...@remote.org Cc: OSMtalk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas On 1 April 2010 21:13, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 April 2010 20:54, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hm. I'm somewhat reluctant to tag a post code boundary an administrative boundary. Our postal service is on its way to being a private enterprise now. It was like that before I came along, I don't know how much this was discussed before hand, I've just been adding missing postcodes etc. Forgot to mention that postcode boundaries share ways with suburb and even state boundaries so it can be useful in that respect... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:36 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In the USA, postal-code (Zip code) boundaries don't necessarily correspond to other administrative boundaries, and are frequently adjusted by the Post Office to balance out the load on different local post offices. Also, real-estate developers sometimes get the Post Office to shift a Zip-code boundary so that a particular street or neighborhood will be in a more-prestigious Zip code. Why are US Zip codes being dragged into a discussion of German postal codes? -- Jeff Ollie ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 1 April 2010 23:56, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: Why are US Zip codes being dragged into a discussion of German postal codes? Because Frederik asked if someone else was mapping post codes? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: Why are US Zip codes being dragged into a discussion of German postal codes? I think the discussion is about unifying the post_code tagging. If we could avoid so many different tags like postal_code, addr:postcode, zip_code, boudary=post_code, etc for the same thing... Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:26 AM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: Why are US Zip codes being dragged into a discussion of German postal codes? Did you know that the US calls their postal codes, Zip Codes? Considering post code usage in multiple countries is a good idea before developing a post code schema for a global map. Frederik started this thread by asking what schema others were using. I hope that we can trick him into creating another really useful schema for all of us. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: we're thinking about importing post code areas in Germany. Are post code areas being mapped in other countries already, and if so, using what tagging schema? I was thinking of creating multipolygon boundary relations with boundary=post_code_area or so. I don't think there is much consistency on anything postcode related (beyond addr:postcode postal_code nodes) so my feeling would be that implementing a nice solid spec would help everyone. Can I ask you to take into account that postcodes/zipcodes apply at different levels of details in different countries, and in some cases there are multiple levels of details even within the same country. As such perhaps something like either: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 or boundary = postal_code postal_code = 425253 postal_code_level = street | town | city | county or even boundary = postal_code street_postal_code = B35 1RT Otherwise data users have to guess the level of detail based on the content of the postcode and the country. -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 2 April 2010 01:51, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 or boundary = postal_code postal_code = 425253 postal_code_level = street | town | city | county That doesn't make sense for Australian postcodes, check out the links I posted... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:06 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 April 2010 01:51, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 or boundary = postal_code postal_code = 425253 postal_code_level = street | town | city | county That doesn't make sense for Australian postcodes, check out the links I posted... From the wiki link you posted Australian postcodes are approx. suburb level / admin_level 8 The data you are importing already includes an admin_level = 8 tag which is exactly the same concept as the above. -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 2 April 2010 02:13, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:06 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 April 2010 01:51, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 or boundary = postal_code postal_code = 425253 postal_code_level = street | town | city | county That doesn't make sense for Australian postcodes, check out the links I posted... From the wiki link you posted Australian postcodes are approx. suburb level / admin_level 8 The data you are importing already includes an admin_level = 8 tag which is exactly the same concept as the above. I meant about street/town/city/county... since some postcodes are half a state in size... but never smaller than a suburb... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:16 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 April 2010 02:13, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:06 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 2 April 2010 01:51, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 or boundary = postal_code postal_code = 425253 postal_code_level = street | town | city | county That doesn't make sense for Australian postcodes, check out the links I posted... From the wiki link you posted Australian postcodes are approx. suburb level / admin_level 8 The data you are importing already includes an admin_level = 8 tag which is exactly the same concept as the above. I meant about street/town/city/county... since some postcodes are half a state in size... but never smaller than a suburb... Well, yes. But full UK postcodes can cover either all, or part of a street, or a single building - I'd still naturally call them a street level postcode (as opposed to a building or suburb level). I'd assume that the preferred usage would be defined per country in the same way that admin_level and road to highway types are. -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 2 April 2010 02:23, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: I'd assume that the preferred usage would be defined per country in the same way that admin_level and road to highway types are. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Hi, Brian Quinion wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 I'm having difficulties in grasping this concept. In Germany we have 5-digit post codes, and the associated regions vary in size depending on how densely populated an area is. So a five-digit code might sometimes encompass a whole region, sometimes a town, sometimes just a quarter. That doesn't technically make them different kinds of post codes, and any labeling like street/district/city would be purely the mapper's guess. Are there really countries where if you ask someone for their post code they will reply do you mean my street post code or my district post code? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 2 April 2010 03:31, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Brian Quinion wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 I'm having difficulties in grasping this concept. In Germany we have From what I understand, in the UK postcodes refer to a street, at least in populated areas... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
In the USA, also, postal codes in low-population areas tend to be much larger than those in densely-populated areas. In addition, we have both five-digit postal codes and nine-digit postal codes; the latter divide up the five-digit zones into sub-zones, typically containing only a few buildings each. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:31:41 To: Brian Quinionopenstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk Cc: OSMtalk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas Hi, Brian Quinion wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 I'm having difficulties in grasping this concept. In Germany we have 5-digit post codes, and the associated regions vary in size depending on how densely populated an area is. So a five-digit code might sometimes encompass a whole region, sometimes a town, sometimes just a quarter. That doesn't technically make them different kinds of post codes, and any labeling like street/district/city would be purely the mapper's guess. Are there really countries where if you ask someone for their post code they will reply do you mean my street post code or my district post code? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Brian Quinion wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 I'm having difficulties in grasping this concept. In Germany we have 5-digit post codes, and the associated regions vary in size depending on how densely populated an area is. So a five-digit code might sometimes encompass a whole region, sometimes a town, sometimes just a quarter. That doesn't technically make them different kinds of post codes, and any labeling like street/district/city would be purely the mapper's guess. Wikipedia tells me that partial Canadian Postal codes are useful to the post office[1]. In K1A 0B1 - K is the postal district, K1A is the Forward Sortation Area and 0B1 is the Local Delivery Unit. Sounds like internal use only to me. Are there really countries where if you ask someone for their post code they will reply do you mean my street post code or my district post code? In my experience, in Canada folks will only answer with their complete 6-digit postal code (If they know it at all.) In the US, Zip Codes changed from 5 numeric digits to 9 numeric digits in 1983[2]. In my experience I am much more likely to hear just the old 5-digit Zip Code rather than the Zip+four that could be considered the official zip code in conversation. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_codes_in_Canada [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_codes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Brian Quinion wrote: boundary=street_postal_code | district_postal_code | city_postal_code street_postal_code = 425253 I'm having difficulties in grasping this concept. In Germany we have 5-digit post codes, and the associated regions vary in size depending on how densely populated an area is. So a five-digit code might sometimes encompass a whole region, sometimes a town, sometimes just a quarter. That doesn't technically make them different kinds of post codes, and any labeling like street/district/city would be purely the mapper's guess. I've not explained well. My point is that different countries have postcodes that work at different scales. Some countries have multiple sets of postcodes for different levels of detail. When trying to process data on a world wide basis it would make life easier for data processors if boundary=post_code did not to refer to a completely different level of detail depending on the country. Effectively at the moment the postal_code tag can mean something very different in two different countries despite being the same tag. -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 9:49 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, we're thinking about importing post code areas in Germany. Are post code areas being mapped in other countries already, and if so, using what tagging schema? I was thinking of creating multipolygon boundary relations with boundary=post_code_area or so. Do we really want to import these kinds of administrative boundaries? If a regular old mapper can't go out with a GPS and verify that a border actually exists, does this sort of data belong in OSM? It seems like someone that wants to use the data should go get it from the authoritative source and overlay it on top of OSM what's on the ground data. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Hi, Ian Dees wrote: Do we really want to import these kinds of administrative boundaries? If a regular old mapper can't go out with a GPS and verify that a border actually exists, does this sort of data belong in OSM? A question that applies to all administrative boundaries, even most national boundaries in Europe nowadays. Like you, I am skeptical about them and would prefer them being kept in a separate database. Post code areas are tremendously useful in Germany because they are commonly used as a cheap machine readable form of location descriptor (enter your post code to find the nearest band branch etc). That alone doesn't justify importing them. My main reasoning is 1. there is no free data set of municipal boundaries in Germany 2. therefore I'd like to use OSM to crowd-source that data 3. postcode boundaries will often run alongside municipal boundaries 4. so importing post codes is a good start to achive 2. In our case, in addition to the above, the only free post code dataset available is a bit aged, and unmaintained, and will need to be corrected by the crowd. It seems like someone that wants to use the data should go get it from the authoritative source and overlay it on top of OSM what's on the ground data. Generally that would be my idea too if (a) the data is free, (b) being well maintained by a third party and (c) not all that useful for us to derive anything from. If these conditions are all met then it makes very little sense to import the data. In our postcode case, only (a) is true and (b) and (c) are false, that's what lets me want to make an exception. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 2 April 2010 03:59, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Do we really want to import these kinds of administrative boundaries? If a regular old mapper can't go out with a GPS and verify that a border actually exists, does this sort of data belong in OSM? How many admin boundaries, except country boundaries, can be actually verified with a GPS? Unless the boundary follows a geographical feature, such as a river, these boundaries exist only on paper ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
John Smith wrote: On 2 April 2010 03:59, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Do we really want to import these kinds of administrative boundaries? If a regular old mapper can't go out with a GPS and verify that a border actually exists, does this sort of data belong in OSM? How many admin boundaries, except country boundaries, can be actually verified with a GPS? Unless the boundary follows a geographical feature, such as a river, these boundaries exist only on paper Even country boundaries can be problematic, for example the land border between Ireland and the UK. I don't believe it is fully marked on the ground. Andy -- Andy PGP Key ID: 0xDC1B5864 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
John Smith wrote: How many admin boundaries, except country boundaries, can be actually verified with a GPS? Unless the boundary follows a geographical feature, such as a river, these boundaries exist only on paper That's a very good point and it leads on to something that I've been meaning to mention for a while: Where boundaries are traced from out-of-copyright sources (e.g. NPE in the UK), and they're actually following another feature (such as a river) it would be extremely useful if the bit of the boundary that follows the river could have a note added to say so. Then, when someone who's actually been there corrects the river or other feature they know to correct the boundary too. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Frederik Ramm wrote: ... Surely you would create a boundary relation that *uses* the way representing the river to construct the boundary - rather than tracing the boundary line over the river line and having two separate ways? Er, you might - but it doesn't seem to be universal practice! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 1 April 2010 10:55, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: Wikipedia tells me that partial Canadian Postal codes are useful to the post office[1]. In K1A 0B1 - K is the postal district, K1A is the Forward Sortation Area and 0B1 is the Local Delivery Unit. Sounds like internal use only to me. Are there really countries where if you ask someone for their post code they will reply do you mean my street post code or my district post code? In my experience, in Canada folks will only answer with their complete 6-digit postal code (If they know it at all.) In the US, Zip Codes changed from 5 numeric digits to 9 numeric digits in 1983[2]. In my experience I am much more likely to hear just the old 5-digit Zip Code rather than the Zip+four that could be considered the official zip code in conversation. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_codes_in_Canada [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_codes In the UK it is a similar post code structure as Canada of AB12 3CD. Everyone would give the full postal code as their address. But some websites and surveys ask for just the first half, as this is good for statistics but keeps enough privacy. A few times I have written letters (to friends as a kid) where I forgot the postcode and put AB12 ???, but they should get it from the full address, Royal Mail is just anal that you put the post code on. If you're clever (or find it fun), you can recognise the place from the first two letters. TW = near the Twickenham sorting office. DH = Durham City (possibly covers the whole county actually). This map is interesting, especially with changing the layers to see different crowd sourced data sources. http://random.dev.openstreetmap.org/postcodes/ -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Post code areas are tremendously useful in Germany because they are commonly used as a cheap machine readable form of location descriptor (enter your post code to find the nearest band branch etc). That's a good use for post code centroids, not post code areas. And post code centroids are best stored in a simple lookup table, not OSM. The actual areas are basically only useful for reverse geocoding (click a spot on the map and get the postal code). But whether or not that's even possible is highly dependent on whether or not the post office provides such information. For some post offices, such information is not meaningful. What is the postal code for the middle of a highway? Maybe there is one defined, which represents what the postal code would be if there were a post box there. But maybe there isn't. It depends on the post office. I have no idea where Germany fits in that classification, which is why I asked the questions above. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
Hi, Anthony wrote: What are the sources for the post code areas? How often are they updated? How are they defined (by reference to houses, by reference to geographical features, by lat/lon, something else)? Will this data be integrated into other OSM data, or is it basically just a separate layer? We do have post code boundaries running together with administrative boundaries sometimes, or running along a road. In these cases I'd expect the post code area multipolygon to use these existing OSM features (provided they exist). It is unclear to me how the areas have been defined; my guess is that in innner-city areas, mostly roads have been used, and in the countryside they probably said something like village A has this post code, village B has that, so let's draw a line in between. My guess is that someone, at some time, literally drew a line and lat/lon coordinates have been derived from that later. There is a post code database that is officially maintained but it is not free. The data we have is a few years old. Post codes in Germany don't change that often, however. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: There is a post code database that is officially maintained but it is not free. That's...interesting. Wouldn't any accurate description of the post codes necessarily be a derivative of that official database? If you're not sure of the answer maybe this is a question for the legal list, but what methods, if any, are allowed to create a free database from an officially defined (non-physical) non-free one? Basically, you just launder the data through a bunch of different others until it can no longer be traced to the original source? In the end, the source is always necessarily that officially maintained database. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 2 April 2010 08:34, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: We do have post code boundaries running together with administrative boundaries sometimes, or running along a road. In these cases I'd expect the post code area multipolygon to use these existing OSM features (provided they exist). After creating thousands of postcode relations I've come to realise why it's such a bad idea to share meta information like boundaries and phsyical information, especially when one or the other or both change as it's a lot more work updating things if they aren't independent of each other. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Post code areas
On 2 April 2010 08:45, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: That's...interesting. Wouldn't any accurate description of the post codes necessarily be a derivative of that official database? Not necessarily, it could be you have postcode information for various places and you are just generating an area that encompasses them. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
