Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24:54AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: What you are describing is the web map to end all web maps. It is a natural tendency for many in the IT industry to always try and generalise (if I add this and make that configurable, then the same backend could be used to do all these things...). Yeah, it happens to me too all the time, that people say But on Google Maps I can do that and that, why not integrate it to the OSM main page. I think people are used to that right now, that they use just one portal for a lot of things. In contrast, I think that a lean main site has a better chance of encouraging individuals to create their own specialist maps just as we have it now. I always compare Free Software to an evolutionary process. As it's so easy to get the data and the source, people just start experimenting. It's bottom up. Mankind did not evolve because there was one super human who was that much greater ... no, the generations always learned from each other and evolved. I think that all these applications around OpenStreetMap should learn to interact with each other (more than they do now). We already have APIs from Cloudmade for Routing, you can choose between different kind of Tiles, etc. I still think that the main OpenStreetMap homepage should be more about community than it is right now. Links to all those great webpages, people build from OpenStreetMap. How do you find them now? Try it, it's not easy. Even on the Wiki-Main-Page there's no link. There's a pretty good page called http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Applications, but (according to 'What links here') there are no links to that page. People hear of the OpenStreetMap, look at the page, and for sure they are disappointed. Because there is no routing. There are no points of interest. There's a map which doesn't look too good (at least to continental Europeans who are not used to blue and green motorways). And the new frontpage design is not an improvement in my opinion. At least there should be a BIG link to that Applications page from above. An example for a better OSM homepage could be http://www.openstreetmap.de - This is about community. There are links to other applications. (If you don't speak german go to http://tinyurl.com/ylfhf8w (the same page translated by Google). The more of OSM is centrally run and maintained, the less diversity and creativity the project will offer. Exactly. That's why the main page should show this diversity and creativity by linking to those applications. greetings, Stephan PS: As I write to the list anyway, I can make a little announcement about my child, the OpenStreetBrowser. In future it will be possible to create own categories and there will be a HTTP-API to query those categories. Take a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetBrowser/API_Proposal and tell me what you think (e.g. on the discussion page). -- Seid unbequem, seid Sand, nicht Öl im Getriebe der Welt! - Günther Eich ,-. | Stephan Plepelits, | | Technische Universität Wien -Studien Informatik Raumplanung | | Projects: | | openstreetbrowser.org couchsurfing.org tubasis.at bl.mud.at | | Contact:| | Mail: sk...@xover.mud.at Blog: plepe.at Jabber: sk...@fsinf.at| | Twitter: twitter.com/plepe Wave: plepel...@googlewave.com | `-' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:19:12 +, Tom Hughes wrote: pointless little diatribe. I do help it made you feel better. What are you on about? -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:49:29 +, Chris Hill wrote: *really* good idea in OSM, but why do you want to piss off some of the I'm just a mapper but agree with SteveC on this, and I hope nobody gets offended but there is place for lts of improvements on www.osm.org website. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Hi, Tirkon wrote: Possibly I am too much in a science fiction. But I could imagine the OSM homepage as a kind of WMS-service with a user-configurable map. A menue will take control, which items are shown, highlighted, four color theoremed [1] i.e. urban quarters of a town (with one quarter highlighted). Thus the cycling-map, the public transport (ÖPNV Karte), the features of openstreetbrowser and all the other special maps could be integrated, configureable with much more precision as provided by these maps i.e. show only streets, motorways, motorways and rivers etc. What you are describing is the web map to end all web maps. It is a natural tendency for many in the IT industry to always try and generalise (if I add this and make that configurable, then the same backend could be used to do all these things...). In contrast, I think that a lean main site has a better chance of encouraging individuals to create their own specialist maps just as we have it now. The more of OSM is centrally run and maintained, the less diversity and creativity the project will offer. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Hi, Tirkon wrote: Here is an example, sadly in German. I do not know an English one. http://geoportal.geodaten.niedersachsen.de/navigator/? But they are far from perfect. On Google maps you can now view the map oriented towards any of the main compass directions ;-) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
2010/2/28 Tirkon tirko...@yahoo.de: But this is exactly rhat, what I am asked i.e. by Wikipedia users. At present they draw their maps for every geographical article (states, regions, districts, towns, municipality, urban quarters) and the sub-chapters of these (water, public transport, railway etc etc) and special interests (cycling, on horseback etc) by hand. This is over and over again the same work only with a different assortment. It would be really helpful, if it was possible to extract automaticly these informations nearly live from OSM. it is already possible, you can get these things through the XAPI or by selecting them locally from the complete data (or an excerpt). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Hi, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: But this is exactly rhat, what I am asked i.e. by Wikipedia users. At present they draw their maps for every geographical article (states, regions, districts, towns, municipality, urban quarters) and the sub-chapters of these (water, public transport, railway etc etc) and special interests (cycling, on horseback etc) by hand. This is over and over again the same work only with a different assortment. It would be really helpful, if it was possible to extract automaticly these informations nearly live from OSM. it is already possible, you can get these things through the XAPI or by selecting them locally from the complete data (or an excerpt). Yes but this is really not the focus of OpenStreetMap. Remember that our focus is mapping stuff that is visible on the ground. The kind of maps discussed here rely almost entirely on stuff that is not visible (administrative borders, mostly). These are not one of our strengths, and never will be - we can of course import them from somewhere but if they were freely available, so could Wikipedians drawing maps... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
2010/2/22 SteveC st...@asklater.com: On Feb 21, 2010, at 18:57, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/2/21 SteveC st...@asklater.com: Sure. In Germany you have this amazing community where there's a stamptish around every corner. But out here it's much harder and we need these easier tools to build the map. thing is that you can't build a crowd-sourced map when missing the crowd. There is no easy shortcut. Was that meant to disagree or agree with what I said or what? I'd say it was pointing out, that IMHO your argumentation doesn't hold. Easier tools are certainly a good thing, but without a community it is all nothing. Whoever wants to push OSM should in the first place strengthen the community. The more mappers you have the better it is. Emphasis on _mappers_. Otherwise we will be in a situation like the proprietary map providers: even with loads of feedback they are not able to update their maps in time (it takes them years to check and correct already known errors). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
One idea is to leverage IRC power, by having an international channel, where any language is permitted. And people can respond live translate, and people can get their answer. Having this IRC weblink directly on the feedback box will help a great deal. Many have abandoned this talk@ list because IRC is more efficient. (kind of like twitter, but the useful version) and it could be better with more languages permitted. Imo, Sam On 2/20/10, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, SteveC wrote: Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) So you meant to integrate uservoice.com instead of integrating openstreetbugs? But can their system tie notes to map locations? Well I'll go further. openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. I think in an environment where every other map on the planet is trying to hide their bugs, we should expose ours and fix them quickly while showing everyone what they got wrong. As for your comments about people entering bugs and feature requests we can't handle... look. I understand it's a case of matching requests to people who can be bothered to do them. And I understand that people here today can't be bothered to fix most of the things that are wrong in OSM because we're all happy to work around them... but it's bonkers to be dismissive about 'granny' because it's all those grannies out there who are going to help us fix this map. If I think about all the people who can help today in OSM, I immediately think of my brothers and sister, my parents and so on... and the only way is if we go through a big complicated loop with walking papers. A bug system like the above should be where we're headed. It will make so many more people help us, and we will be able to fix so many more things. So as for features and software bugs... I think we should turn up the volume of the people who want things changed. One, we might learn something about what the users actually want (because trac is a poor, poor reflection) and two... look we should be the first people to welcome input on what people think we should do. We can't all hide in our basement and hack on Java any more. We have to help these people who are crying out for it. I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blog: http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans OpenStreetMap IRC: http://irc.openstreetmap.org @Acrosscanadatrails ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok ok and then? who will pick it up and fix it? look at openstreetbugs and most could be closed right away. the feedback from most people is useless. a comment footways are missing in this park doesn't help much if there is no experienced mapper willing to survey. And someone able to write a detailed and useful description will be able to Potlatch* in the same time the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. I think in an environment where every other map on the planet is trying to hide their bugs, we should expose ours and fix them quickly while showing everyone what they got wrong. As for your comments about people entering bugs and feature requests we can't handle... look. I understand it's a case of matching requests to people who can be bothered to do them. And I understand that people here today can't be bothered to fix most of the things that are wrong in OSM because we're all happy to work around them... but it's bonkers to be dismissive about 'granny' because it's all those grannies out there who are going to help us fix this map. the grannies are useless unless you sit down with them and talk to them finally and do the entry yourself. If I think about all the people who can help today in OSM, I immediately think of my brothers and sister, my parents and so on... and the only way is if we go through a big complicated loop with walking papers. A bug system like the above should be where we're headed. It will make so many more people help us, and we will be able to fix so many more things. something like walking papers is what non geeks understand because they know paper maps. or to repeat you have to sit down with them So as for features and software bugs... I think we should turn up the volume of the people who want things changed. One, we might learn something about what the users actually want (because trac is a poor, poor reflection) and two... look we should be the first people to welcome input on what people think we should do. We can't all hide in our basement and hack on Java any more. We have to help these people who are crying out for it. I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. without the German's you won't get a better map. back to footways are missing in this park it's sitting in openstreetbugs for many months (or years?) openstreetbugs or keepright are the perfect tools for German's with a large community look at US. even a 5+ mio area like the bay area has probably less than 100 active mappers. they can and will do cooler and more rewarding things first. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. Yours c. Steve ___ dev mailing list d...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On 21/02/10 07:16, SteveC wrote: On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:13 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: SteveC wrote: http://opengeodata.org/new-design-concept-for-openstreetmaporg Whatever merits the (external, commercial) uservoice.com service might have, I am extremely sceptical about using it for openstreetmap.org. Join companies organisations of all sizes that already depend on UserVoice for feedback (Sun, Nokia, Random House, Sony BMG, Myspace.com). I don't envisage OSM being like these in any way. Our problem is not that granny doesn't find the feedback button; if we have a problem then it is that we do not have the time and patience to deal with her suggestions. Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) As I believe I said last night, it was entirely unclear to me if you were only talking about using that for map bugs or for other bugs as well. So I'm not surprised Fred misunderstood as well. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On 21/02/10 07:38, SteveC wrote: On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: SteveC wrote: Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) So you meant to integrate uservoice.com instead of integrating openstreetbugs? But can their system tie notes to map locations? Well I'll go further. openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. I have been trying for several years now to get somebody to do a properly integrated version of openstreetbugs and obviously things like defaulting based on the current map view would be a perfectly sensible thing for such a tool to do. Like Fred I'm really not sure about using an external site like this in much the same way that I've resisted integrating an external tool like openstreetbugs into the main site. I will go and have a look at uservoice now though, assuming that it's back up... Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On 01/-10/-28163 08:59 PM, SteveC wrote: On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: ... openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be Fixing openstreetbugs crappy ui and integrating it into the main page seems like the better way to go in this case rather than replace it with a system that is not designed nor good at handling spacial suggestions. 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. Are you suggesting that it is a bad idea to specify a location of a map bug? Ok, so I will zoom into central london and tell you there is a turn restriction missing. How is anyone supposed to help fix this without the detailed location information? Even google with their report a problem link lets you place a marker to highlight where the problem actually is. And perhaps the UI of the bug reporting should say at the top something like Hey, you can report a map problem here, no problem, but even better would be if you click on the edit button and actually fix it your self. But if you feel uncomfortable to do that, just report it here and perhaps eventually someone else like you might come and fix it ... I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_.Horrendous. A total PITA. Actually, I am not that clear on why it is all that _awful_. I kind of like the design (of the main page). Yes, it has its issues and there are a few things I would like to see to improve the usability, that are better in your design. (The more prominent search bar, now that we have the technical capabilities to support larger use of search and the inclusion of some Quality Assurance tools) But most of those could be added incrementally too. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. Yes, a simple bug system can help. In particular in those regions that are already complete, are in maintanace mode and have sufficient established mappers that are actually looking for things to do. But in all other cases, which unfortunately at the moment are probably still the majority, just reporting problems won't actually get them fixed. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. I don't think this comment is fair, as Richard is doing a wonderful job, especially as a one man volunteer. But I will leave it at that. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. I think what we are (partly) missing out on here is people technically capable on actually implementing any of those suggestions and also some people who are technically skilled enough to realize what is feasible for volunteers to achieve and what not and are willing to work closely with the implementers to get the UI user friendly. People just throwing ideas over the wall, can occasionally be useful, but I don't think that is our main problem. Although the general attitude of Open source programmers of Oh the code is that way, so go and fix it your self is not always helpful either. Kai Yoursc. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Hi, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: ok and then? who will pick it up and fix it? look at openstreetbugs and most could be closed right away. the feedback from most people is useless. a comment footways are missing in this park doesn't help much if there is no experienced mapper willing to survey. While I am all in favour of enticing more people to lend their local knowledge to improve OSM (and I believe there is a *lot* we can harness), I must say that Apollinaris has a point here. Commentary on OSM from people who do not have a basic understanding of it tends to be worthless. It is not worthless all the time, but very often so. That's because if people cannot be made to understand that there is something like data behind the map, and the map will always show a selection of what's there, they are bound to mix up the following: * data missing * wrong data * things left out on purpose on a specific zoom level * properties of an object that have been mapped but are not shown * things that have not been mapped because nobody is interested * ... Now we can either adopt a free-for-all approach where we encourage everyone to leave their feedback without spending 10 seconds on understanding how this map is generated, and then have a lot of work in post-processing (explaining to people that if they only had zoomed in further, the restaurant they were looking for would've been shown etc.) - or we can crowd-source this work by trying to educate those who wish to help, at the possible cost of turning away those with too small attention spans or too little technical aptitude. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On 21 February 2010 21:35, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Now we can either adopt a free-for-all approach where we encourage everyone to leave their feedback without spending 10 seconds on understanding how this map is generated, and then have a lot of work in post-processing (explaining to people that if they only had zoomed in further, the restaurant they were looking for would've been shown etc.) - or we can crowd-source this work by trying to educate those who wish to help, at the possible cost of turning away those with too small attention spans or too little technical aptitude. Or we can try a third approach and find some middle ground between the two. This might be restricting the types of information they can enter, it might try to match near by POIs and see if something similar matches etc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
SteveC wrote: 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. I really think you've lost the plot here Steve. You dreamed up a *really* good idea in OSM, but why do you want to piss off some of the people who have done the most to make it happen? Chris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010, SteveC wrote: ... It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. ... This comment is so completely over the top that for me at least it completely invalidates anything else that SteveC might say. Potlatch is an excellent tool for many users, myself included. It has been improving steadily, and in my experience Richard Fairhurst is very thoughtful and receptive. I hope that OSM developers will forgive my butting in here - I'm just a mapper, but with perhaps enough software-development experience to appreciate Richard. - Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Sam Vekemans wrote: Many have abandoned this talk@ list because IRC is more efficient. Only if you want to talk to people either in your own time zone or are night workers. Talk@ communicates ideas with all people all over the globe. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Apollinaris Schoell wrote: ok and then? who will pick it up and fix it? look at openstreetbugs and most could be closed right away. the feedback from most people is useless. a comment footways are missing in this park doesn't help much if there is no experienced mapper willing to survey. And someone able to write a detailed and useful description will be able to Potlatch* in the same time +1 Streetbugs encourages people to 'get others to do it' when OSM should be encouraging them to 'do it yourself' Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
SteveC wrote: Well I'll go further. openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. How is zooming all the way in repeatedly panning around to centre up, quicker than one click to _accurately_ locate the problem? 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. You really are a grade A tosser. When most people here treat others with respect, why do you have to degenerate it into a juvenile, Youtube style slanging match? What do you think Granny's reaction will be when she reads this? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On 22 February 2010 01:37, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Streetbugs encourages people to 'get others to do it' when OSM should be encouraging them to 'do it yourself' While it'd be nice if people would fix any problems themselves, I don't think OSM's website is at the point where some granny can just quickly/easily sign up and tweak a few things, there is simply too many alien concepts for most people to grasp quickly and easily. Find some random non-technical family member and try and explain it to them some time. In the mean time if they can quickly explain the problem people could explain to the person reporting it how to fix it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 12:55 AM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok ok and then? who will pick it up and fix it? I will. look at openstreetbugs and most could be closed right away. the feedback from most people is useless. a comment footways are missing in this park doesn't help much if there is no experienced mapper willing to survey. And someone able to write a detailed and useful description will be able to Potlatch* in the same time I don't think that's the issue - I think that most people aren't aware of OSB or keepright etc because they're not front ant center. the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. I think in an environment where every other map on the planet is trying to hide their bugs, we should expose ours and fix them quickly while showing everyone what they got wrong. As for your comments about people entering bugs and feature requests we can't handle... look. I understand it's a case of matching requests to people who can be bothered to do them. And I understand that people here today can't be bothered to fix most of the things that are wrong in OSM because we're all happy to work around them... but it's bonkers to be dismissive about 'granny' because it's all those grannies out there who are going to help us fix this map. the grannies are useless unless you sit down with them and talk to them finally and do the entry yourself. I'm trying to make the point that a simple OSB -like interface means you don't have to. If I think about all the people who can help today in OSM, I immediately think of my brothers and sister, my parents and so on... and the only way is if we go through a big complicated loop with walking papers. A bug system like the above should be where we're headed. It will make so many more people help us, and we will be able to fix so many more things. something like walking papers is what non geeks understand because they know paper maps. or to repeat you have to sit down with them Right... but OSB is even simpler because you don't have to print it out etc. So as for features and software bugs... I think we should turn up the volume of the people who want things changed. One, we might learn something about what the users actually want (because trac is a poor, poor reflection) and two... look we should be the first people to welcome input on what people think we should do. We can't all hide in our basement and hack on Java any more. We have to help these people who are crying out for it. I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. without the German's you won't get a better map. back to footways are missing in this park it's sitting in openstreetbugs for many months (or years?) openstreetbugs or keepright are the perfect tools for German's with a large community look at US. even a 5+ mio area like the bay area has probably less than 100 active mappers. they can and will do cooler and more rewarding things first. Sure. In Germany you have this amazing community where there's a stamptish around every corner. But out here it's much harder and we need these easier tools to build the map. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 1:05 AM, Tom Hughes wrote: On 21/02/10 07:16, SteveC wrote: On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:13 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: SteveC wrote: http://opengeodata.org/new-design-concept-for-openstreetmaporg Whatever merits the (external, commercial) uservoice.com service might have, I am extremely sceptical about using it for openstreetmap.org. Join companies organisations of all sizes that already depend on UserVoice for feedback (Sun, Nokia, Random House, Sony BMG, Myspace.com). I don't envisage OSM being like these in any way. Our problem is not that granny doesn't find the feedback button; if we have a problem then it is that we do not have the time and patience to deal with her suggestions. Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) As I believe I said last night, it was entirely unclear to me if you were only talking about using that for map bugs or for other bugs as well. So I'm not surprised Fred misunderstood as well. I spent three paragraphs in my post on OGD about it, I think it's entirely open ended. I know lots of people hate companies that make money and so on, but, I thought putting a feedback tab would be a good straw man. I didn't think we'd all hate feedback so much. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 1:08 AM, Tom Hughes wrote: On 21/02/10 07:38, SteveC wrote: On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: SteveC wrote: Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) So you meant to integrate uservoice.com instead of integrating openstreetbugs? But can their system tie notes to map locations? Well I'll go further. openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. I have been trying for several years now to get somebody to do a properly integrated version of openstreetbugs and obviously things like defaulting based on the current map view would be a perfectly sensible thing for such a tool to do. Go to oDesk.com and pay someone to do it? That's what I did. I think the community is great at many things, but for those you spend years on not convincing anybody, you can just pay them. Like Fred I'm really not sure about using an external site like this in much the same way that I've resisted integrating an external tool like openstreetbugs into the main site. I will go and have a look at uservoice now though, assuming that it's back up... I don't care if it's uservoice or whatever. The thing about uservoice is though that it's working today and they have free plans for open source projects. If there's a better solution, lets use it. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
John Smith wrote: On 22 February 2010 01:37, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Streetbugs encourages people to 'get others to do it' when OSM should be encouraging them to 'do it yourself' While it'd be nice if people would fix any problems themselves, I don't think OSM's website is at the point where some granny can just quickly/easily sign up and tweak a few things, there is simply too many alien concepts for most people to grasp quickly and easily. Find some random non-technical family member and try and explain it to them some time. Yes, I fully understand the problems, but I think that, in principle, OSM should be encouraging community participation. Streetbugs, as it stands, doesn't do this. In the mean time if they can quickly explain the problem people could explain to the person reporting it how to fix it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
As there are two sorts of problems - 'easy fix' ones (There is a bank here, This road is Clifton Road, not Clifton Avenue etc.) and the 'hard' ones (this road is also part of NCN Route 17 or there is a road missing here), maybe we need two solutions? OpenStreetBugs is pretty good for the harder ones, but I think we should encourage casual users to fix the easy ones. This would mean providing a simple editor with a very limited feature set, that concentrates on being easy to use (probably following Microsoft UI style of single click, double click, right click etc. to make it intuitive for most users). I have seen a javascript application to allow users to add POIs (can't remember the web address though) - I would suggest that we work up a specification for what a non technical user would need to be able to work on these simple things and look at producing something similar under the 'Edit' tab, with an 'Advanced' option that opens Potlatch. Thoughts? Graham. On 21 February 2010 16:04, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 February 2010 01:37, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: Streetbugs encourages people to 'get others to do it' when OSM should be encouraging them to 'do it yourself' While it'd be nice if people would fix any problems themselves, I don't think OSM's website is at the point where some granny can just quickly/easily sign up and tweak a few things, there is simply too many alien concepts for most people to grasp quickly and easily. Find some random non-technical family member and try and explain it to them some time. In the mean time if they can quickly explain the problem people could explain to the person reporting it how to fix it. ___ dev mailing list d...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev -- Dr. Graham Jones Hartlepool, UK email: grahamjones...@gmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 1:15 AM, Kai Krueger wrote: the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. Are you suggesting that it is a bad idea to specify a location of a map bug? Ok, so I will zoom into central london and tell you there is a turn restriction missing. How is anyone supposed to help fix this without the detailed location information? Even google with their report a problem link lets you place a marker to highlight where the problem actually is. And perhaps the UI of the bug reporting should say at the top something like Hey, you can report a map problem here, no problem, but even better would be if you click on the edit button and actually fix it your self. But if you feel uncomfortable to do that, just report it here and perhaps eventually someone else like you might come and fix it I like the latter, reporting the *exact* location as a extra feature. I think you'll get more bugs if you allow people to type descriptively the location rather than force a click on the location. It seems simple to all of us, but it isn't to the vast majority of people. ... I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_.Horrendous. A total PITA. Actually, I am not that clear on why it is all that _awful_. I kind of like the design (of the main page). Yes, it has its issues and there are a few things I would like to see to improve the usability, that are better in your design. (The more prominent search bar, now that we have the technical capabilities to support larger use of search and the inclusion of some Quality Assurance tools) But most of those could be added incrementally too. It's the number one complaint I hear when I fly all over the world talking to people about OSM. Bad design, hard to learn editor tools (just go and look at Google/Waze stuff for comparison) and then the dreaded when will you guys get your act together and change license... We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. Yes, a simple bug system can help. In particular in those regions that are already complete, are in maintanace mode and have sufficient established mappers that are actually looking for things to do. But in all other cases, which unfortunately at the moment are probably still the majority, just reporting problems won't actually get them fixed. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. I don't think this comment is fair, as Richard is doing a wonderful job, especially as a one man volunteer. But I will leave it at that. I'm sorry I disagree. I think it's great Richard volunteers of course, and puts all the effort in, but it has to be said that that effort would be 100x more useful in finishing potlatch 2 than more time on potlatch 1. I think what we are (partly) missing out on here is people technically capable on actually implementing any of those suggestions and also some people who are technically skilled enough to realize what is feasible for volunteers to achieve and what not and are willing to work closely with the implementers to get the UI user friendly. People just throwing ideas over the wall, can occasionally be useful, but I don't think that is our main problem. Although the general attitude of Open source programmers of Oh the code is that way, so go and fix it your self is not always helpful either. That's exactly it - and why I made that point on the OGD post. Some projects have a 'design dictator' because nobody can ever agree web design issues. That's a bit harsh but it's one way to do it. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 4:54 AM, Robert Funnell wrote: On Sun, 21 Feb 2010, SteveC wrote: ... It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. ... This comment is so completely over the top that for me at least it completely invalidates anything else that SteveC might say. Potlatch is an excellent tool for many users, myself included. It mostly works for me too, but we have a lot of patience. If you look at the bigger picture beyond us though it's very hard to use and there's a much better codebase waiting in the wings. It doesn't look like that will be finished. Now, you can dance around that and talk about how receptive Richard is: It has been improving steadily, and in my experience Richard Fairhurst is very thoughtful and receptive. And that's fine, and he is thoughtful... but at the end of the day that doesn't make PL any easier to use. The simple fact is that PL2 needs to get finished and PL1 needs to be put in to an end-of-life freeze. I don't see that happening, but I do see hundreds of frustrated people at conferences (like I did yesterday) who give up on it when really we should be welcoming them. So I'd prefer not to pretend there isn't a problem, there is, it's big, and we should try to do something about it. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Dave F. wrote: How is zooming all the way in repeatedly panning around to centre up, quicker than one click to _accurately_ locate the problem? Hi, you've never done a UI review. http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/UX_and_Usability_Study Money quote: Every user in this study struggled to get a basic grasp of the editing interface. Despite users’ overall excitement about Wikipedia, their willingness to spend up to an hour on the site, and varying levels of computer expertise, they largely failed to make edits correctly without repeated attempts and efforts. It would be worse for OSM. Ir shouldn't be. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. You really are a grade A tosser. When most people here treat others with respect, why do you have to degenerate it into a juvenile, Youtube style slanging match? What do you think Granny's reaction will be when she reads this? Sorry, do you disagree with any specific point I made? Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 3:49 AM, Chris Hill wrote: SteveC wrote: 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. I really think you've lost the plot here Steve. You dreamed up a *really* good idea in OSM, but why do you want to piss off some of the people who have done the most to make it happen? Fair point, I shouldn't have been that harsh and I apologise Richard, but I don't dissent from the basic points I'm making. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
SteveC wrote: On Feb 21, 2010, at 8:03 AM, Dave F. wrote: How is zooming all the way in repeatedly panning around to centre up, quicker than one click to _accurately_ locate the problem? Hi, you've never done a UI review. http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/UX_and_Usability_Study Money quote: Every user in this study struggled to get a basic grasp of the editing interface. Despite users’ overall excitement about Wikipedia, their willingness to spend up to an hour on the site, and varying levels of computer expertise, they largely failed to make edits correctly without repeated attempts and efforts. It would be worse for OSM. Ir shouldn't be. What proof do you have for that? You're comparing oranges with apples. With OSM being vector graphics icons, it's much easier to get to grips with than a scripting language. (As a side point, I think all references to XML format data should be banned from the wiki. It's too confusing not relevant for newbies.) Initial points after skimming your link: 15 is not a big enough set for accurate conclusions. Even worse it was vetted down, removing users who were willing editors. This gives a distorted view on how user friendly it is. And they were just from SF. Environment plays a big part in opinion surveys like this. Going on the photo' for the remote sessions it's results are hardly surprising - uncomfortable seats, broom cupboard room (I bet it got hot in there) poor posture positions. Most OSM users will learn at their own pace in the comfort of their own homes. I got to grips with OSM fairly quickly, yet I've still not worked out how to edit a wiki properly. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. You really are a grade A tosser. When most people here treat others with respect, why do you have to degenerate it into a juvenile, Youtube style slanging match? What do you think Granny's reaction will be when she reads this? Sorry, And so you should be. do you disagree with any specific point I made? I disagree with you general attitude. Regards Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Dave F. wrote: Hi, you've never done a UI review. http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/UX_and_Usability_Study Money quote: Every user in this study struggled to get a basic grasp of the editing interface. Despite users’ overall excitement about Wikipedia, their willingness to spend up to an hour on the site, and varying levels of computer expertise, they largely failed to make edits correctly without repeated attempts and efforts. It would be worse for OSM. Ir shouldn't be. What proof do you have for that? Oh, please. do you disagree with any specific point I made? I disagree with you general attitude. Yawn. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
SteveC wrote: Oh, please... ...Yawn. That kind of sums you up. Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Dave F. wrote: SteveC wrote: Oh, please... ...Yawn. That kind of sums you up. /me prods the troll Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Anyone on the outside seeing this won't be inspired to learn to fix any errors people are trying to get fixed... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
SteveC wrote: On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Dave F. wrote: SteveC wrote: Oh, please... ...Yawn. That kind of sums you up. /me prods the troll I'm a troll because I disagree with you? You're weird. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:56 AM, Dave F. wrote: SteveC wrote: On Feb 21, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Dave F. wrote: SteveC wrote: Oh, please... ...Yawn. That kind of sums you up. /me prods the troll I'm a troll because I disagree with you? No, because you live under a bridge with your forest friends You're weird. Thanks! :-) Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 16:36, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: ... It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. ... This comment is so completely over the top that for me at least it completely invalidates anything else that SteveC might say. Potlatch is an excellent tool for many users, myself included. It mostly works for me too, but we have a lot of patience. If you look at the bigger picture beyond us though it's very hard to use and there's a much better codebase waiting in the wings. It doesn't look like that will be finished. Now, you can dance around that and talk about how receptive Richard is: It has been improving steadily, and in my experience Richard Fairhurst is very thoughtful and receptive. And that's fine, and he is thoughtful... but at the end of the day that doesn't make PL any easier to use. The simple fact is that PL2 needs to get finished and PL1 needs to be put in to an end-of-life freeze. I don't see that happening, but I do see hundreds of frustrated people at conferences (like I did yesterday) who give up on it when really we should be welcoming them. So I'd prefer not to pretend there isn't a problem, there is, it's big, and we should try to do something about it. I know you don't personify CloudMade but if you think Potlatch 2 is such a high priority perhaps CM could have helped with its development instead of striking out on its own with Mapzen - an editor that's also written in AS3. Aside from that I don't know how closely you follow Potlatch 1 development but most of the changes in the last half year have been purely bugfixes: i18n fixes, Haiti / nearmap imagery support etc. But as we can't change the past work on making it an alternative to Potlatch on the main site (as well as offering JOSM as another alternative). This is something I brought up on IRC yesterday. I think it would be nice to change the Edit tab so that when the first time you use it you don't get Potlatch but a short page showing screenshots a short explanation for the most popular editors, with an emphasis on the Potlatch/Mapzen icon explaining that you can edit right now if you go that route. Then after that when editing you'd get a short message somewhere on the page saying You're editing with Potlatch [linkconfigure another editor/link]. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 11:49 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 16:36, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: ... It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. ... This comment is so completely over the top that for me at least it completely invalidates anything else that SteveC might say. Potlatch is an excellent tool for many users, myself included. It mostly works for me too, but we have a lot of patience. If you look at the bigger picture beyond us though it's very hard to use and there's a much better codebase waiting in the wings. It doesn't look like that will be finished. Now, you can dance around that and talk about how receptive Richard is: It has been improving steadily, and in my experience Richard Fairhurst is very thoughtful and receptive. And that's fine, and he is thoughtful... but at the end of the day that doesn't make PL any easier to use. The simple fact is that PL2 needs to get finished and PL1 needs to be put in to an end-of-life freeze. I don't see that happening, but I do see hundreds of frustrated people at conferences (like I did yesterday) who give up on it when really we should be welcoming them. So I'd prefer not to pretend there isn't a problem, there is, it's big, and we should try to do something about it. I know you don't personify CloudMade but if you think Potlatch 2 is such a high priority perhaps CM could have helped with its development instead of striking out on its own with Mapzen - an editor that's also written in AS3. I think you're forgetting just how hard it was to convince Richard that AS3 was a good idea in the first place :-) Aside from that I don't know how closely you follow Potlatch 1 development but most of the changes in the last half year have been purely bugfixes: i18n fixes, Haiti / nearmap imagery support etc. Sure, sure, but the point is that if you spent those same man hours on PL2, it would be here by now. But as we can't change the past work on making it an alternative to Potlatch on the main site (as well as offering JOSM as another alternative). This is something I brought up on IRC yesterday. I think it would be nice to change the Edit tab so that when the first time you use it you don't get Potlatch but a short page showing screenshots a short explanation for the most popular editors, with an emphasis on the Potlatch/Mapzen icon explaining that you can edit right now if you go that route. Then after that when editing you'd get a short message somewhere on the page saying You're editing with Potlatch [linkconfigure another editor/link] I think this is a cool idea. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Hi folks, On Dom 21 Feb 2010, SteveC wrote: 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok I think an easy feedback system is great. And I like the idea of exposing bugs. For this I think it would be essential to coordinate a bit and prepare in an explicit manner workflows (and make them fun, light and non-bureaucratic). I know, these workflows exist already, but they are not mapped (not documented) I think, as usual in an OpenSource project or other common team structures, where workflows establish themselves over time, and mostly perform quite well. Basically I think of creating a tree of bug categories, and in the end of that tree should be supporters who feel it their job to fix the incoming bugs. This bug tree should be easy and fun to use. For me, i.e. bugzilla is an example of a highly functional but difficult bug tracking system. The first supporters we need are the ones who decide the category of a bug, to assign bugs to the right category/ supporting people. Oviously, bug categories correlate with skill profile, interest and free time of supporters (and for mapping fixes, geographic activity). I think it would be helpful as well to make a survey about skill profiles of the supporters (us), to find in some emergency perhaps another supporter who could help out, without depending always on optimal communications. So this would expose as well the skill and power of human resources (or the lack of it) of an important part of the OSM project. So your kind of provocative post could have a very good impact on OSM I think, in establishing better-organized workflows. Of course the whole process should be fun, and no boring bug-fixing slavery. Even more challenging than that kind of system to organize collaborative work would be establishing an organized system of decision-making (but I think this is perhaps just fully utopic democratic geekery). Chances are that an external feedback system will not fit our needs. Cheers! Jochen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
The problem with your analysis is pretty simple - maybe those people left because the site was crap, not because they inherently don't like adding more than 10 things. Maybe if we make it better, they will add a lot more. On Feb 21, 2010, at 3:01 PM, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: Instead of whining about the good and and and the ugly of osm.org and Potlatch and speculating some stats who is contributing to osm # Planet + daily diff from 2010-02-20 total users, with 0 objects in a planet file: 66949 total users, with 10 objects in a planet file: 42450 # North America extract from Nov 2009 total users, with 0 objects: 8043 total users, with 10 objects: 4723 # Germany from Geofabrik total users, with 0 objects: 24172 total users, with 10 objects: 16421 users with less than 10 objects are probably not active anymore and their contributions have been reworked or they haven't done anything useful at all. an even stricter user count quoted from recent talk 8173 as of the beginning of the month, I think. See http://www.flickr.com/photos/itoworld/4360166105 Don't have the total number of users but remember it was 130k long time back Now my speculations. 1/3 -1/2 of users with an account are present in planet 2/3 of active users contributed more than the Potlatch live mode error in their first and last edits the stricter definition of active users reduces these numbers to 1/8 +1/3 of active users in germany Except for germany I would say Osm contributions is still a project for geeks and this will not change anytime soon. That's totally moronic. OSB or other bug entry systems for non mappers are pointless until the experienced user base is big enough to be willing to work on bugs rather their own interests. No, we need to keep innovating not living in 1991. OSB is really cool idea but definitely lacks 2 features - add pictures, now all smart-phones have gps and camera. a pic will tell more than any description. this is easy for anyone to take pics of turn restrictions, speed limits, all kinds of POI. I use Josm with geotagged pics and this is better than anything else and much faster than notebooks, walking papers … - no contact info. as a mapper it's not possible to verify and ask for more details. sure anonymous bugs should be allowed but many people are willing to share their contact email and will love the idea to get points for a certain number of bugs, or a voting system ala amazon reviews might attract non mappers. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 00:09, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: The problem with your analysis is pretty simple - maybe those people left because the site was crap, not because they inherently don't like adding more than 10 things. Maybe if we make it better, they will add a lot more. OSM, the website, the tools, the interface has to be made easier to use, both for mapmakers and mapusers. I really welcome tools like the wonderful mapbox.com (for devs) and cloudmade poi collector (for mapusers). This is the way to go. And surely a simplification of UX for the main site is a good thing. And goes along with the others. -- -S ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On 21 Feb 2010, at 15:09 , SteveC wrote: The problem with your analysis is pretty simple - maybe those people left because the site was crap, not because they inherently don't like adding more than 10 things. Maybe if we make it better, they will add a lot more. I can't agree or disagree here. It's just numbers. I am sure other opensource projects and especially wikipedia will have similar patterns. though their numbers might be completely different. until someone contacts a statistical sample of users and ask why this is pure speculation. some interesting questions - how many users have a GIS, Software background? - which tool, osm.org, wiki, lack of documentation, lack of support, … stopped them this could be done when we move to the new license and all active users have to be contacted anyway and might shed some light on the motivation just in case you forgot. Tom said it many times. fix it, send patches. I am sure Richard will say the same for Potlatch. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
2010/2/21 SteveC st...@asklater.com: Sure. In Germany you have this amazing community where there's a stamptish around every corner. But out here it's much harder and we need these easier tools to build the map. thing is that you can't build a crowd-sourced map when missing the crowd. There is no easy shortcut. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Even within your own time zone, IRC only allows you to communicate with people who are online right now, not someone who might log in an hour from now. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:29:24 Cc: Talk Openstreetmaptalk@openstreetmap.org; dev listd...@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept Sam Vekemans wrote: Many have abandoned this talk@ list because IRC is more efficient. Only if you want to talk to people either in your own time zone or are night workers. Talk@ communicates ideas with all people all over the globe. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 21, 2010, at 18:57, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/2/21 SteveC st...@asklater.com: Sure. In Germany you have this amazing community where there's a stamptish around every corner. But out here it's much harder and we need these easier tools to build the map. thing is that you can't build a crowd-sourced map when missing the crowd. There is no easy shortcut. Was that meant to disagree or agree with what I said or what? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On 22 February 2010 13:17, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Was that meant to disagree or agree with what I said or what? Everyone keeps complaining that OSB is the wrong approach, it will create too much work, but no one has any proof of what will happen, and current bugs listed aren't much of a guide because those finding OSM probably won't stumble upon OSB unless they start mapping. I don't see any harm in integrating something into OSM, like OSB, but if it ends up being too much work, then just disable it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Hi, SteveC wrote: http://opengeodata.org/new-design-concept-for-openstreetmaporg Whatever merits the (external, commercial) uservoice.com service might have, I am extremely sceptical about using it for openstreetmap.org. Join companies organisations of all sizes that already depend on UserVoice for feedback (Sun, Nokia, Random House, Sony BMG, Myspace.com). I don't envisage OSM being like these in any way. Our problem is not that granny doesn't find the feedback button; if we have a problem then it is that we do not have the time and patience to deal with her suggestions. What this external service (where people can write up ideas and others can vote them up or down) would do is create another league of Wiki fiddlers, only with less understanding of OSM. It would give a nice outward impression, but it wouldn't change the amount of resources we have available to deal with suggestions from outsiders. In the end, it would only frustrate people when they see that their suggestions don't get implemented. We do not suffer from a lack of ideas regarding cool things that could be improved about OSM. If we suffer from a lack of ideas at all then it might be ideas on how to implement something without breaking things or overloading servers, i.e. well-founded technical ideas that require intricate knowledge of how OSM works. uservoice.com will not help there. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:13 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, SteveC wrote: http://opengeodata.org/new-design-concept-for-openstreetmaporg Whatever merits the (external, commercial) uservoice.com service might have, I am extremely sceptical about using it for openstreetmap.org. Join companies organisations of all sizes that already depend on UserVoice for feedback (Sun, Nokia, Random House, Sony BMG, Myspace.com). I don't envisage OSM being like these in any way. Our problem is not that granny doesn't find the feedback button; if we have a problem then it is that we do not have the time and patience to deal with her suggestions. Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
Hi, SteveC wrote: Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) So you meant to integrate uservoice.com instead of integrating openstreetbugs? But can their system tie notes to map locations? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] OSM front page design concept
On Feb 20, 2010, at 11:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, SteveC wrote: Wrong. Map bugs. Did you read my post Fred ? :-) So you meant to integrate uservoice.com instead of integrating openstreetbugs? But can their system tie notes to map locations? Well I'll go further. openstreetbugs is basically there but has a crappy UI. It needs to be 1) click 'feedback' or 'problem' 2) enter problem 3) click ok the extra step of clicking where the problem is should not happen, we should get that from the bbox or center point plus zoom. So with some changes I think we can integrate OSB and expose it front and center to help fix up the bugs. I think in an environment where every other map on the planet is trying to hide their bugs, we should expose ours and fix them quickly while showing everyone what they got wrong. As for your comments about people entering bugs and feature requests we can't handle... look. I understand it's a case of matching requests to people who can be bothered to do them. And I understand that people here today can't be bothered to fix most of the things that are wrong in OSM because we're all happy to work around them... but it's bonkers to be dismissive about 'granny' because it's all those grannies out there who are going to help us fix this map. If I think about all the people who can help today in OSM, I immediately think of my brothers and sister, my parents and so on... and the only way is if we go through a big complicated loop with walking papers. A bug system like the above should be where we're headed. It will make so many more people help us, and we will be able to fix so many more things. So as for features and software bugs... I think we should turn up the volume of the people who want things changed. One, we might learn something about what the users actually want (because trac is a poor, poor reflection) and two... look we should be the first people to welcome input on what people think we should do. We can't all hide in our basement and hack on Java any more. We have to help these people who are crying out for it. I'll add two more things 1) Using google insight (bing for it) and many other tools it's very very clear that the german community is by far and away huge. That's wonderful, but we don't have Germans all over Europe and the US - we need these tools out here Frederik to help us fix the map. 2) We have to be very clear that the openstreetmap.org website is _awful_. Horrendous. A total PITA. We're all here because we're persistent with it. But the wonderful thing is - we don't have to make the tools and site easy to use if we can expose a simple bug system. It's very clear that nobody can convince Richard to actually write something any muggle would really want to use, you can scream at him to finish the mythical Potlatch 2 all you want, but he doesn't give a shit and lives on a boat in bliss. That's his choice, and it's totally fine, but if we all feel that way then we have to deal with the downside that every single day we lose tens of thousands of edits because of that monopoly on bad UI. All I'm suggesting is we sidestep the problem and connect people who can report a map bug but can't be bothered to deal with pain and suffering of potlatch with the people who can deal with it, at least until Richard gets his act together and stops fixing every stupid thing in the old codebase. You have to take a step back here and realise what we're missing out on. Yours c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
