Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
On 30/07/2014, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: I'd consider that a useful note, and certainly within the scope of what notes were intended for. ?! useful in what ? That the street names are missing in a town ? Then create a note for missing addresses, shops, pharmacies, etc. Such notes do not help contributors because it is so obvious and does not bring any information or error report helping the others. Especially for missing street names, where we have plenty of good tools to find unnamed highways worldwide. Any FOO needs fixing here note that just repeats what QA tools automatically point out is just wasting contributors' time. It's excusable if comming from an OSM newbie, but contributors ought to know better. There are (as always) exceptions. One I know of is a case of mapper-commenter collaboration in Northern Ireland where the mapper opened many notes of the type what is this called ? and a local commenter would answer, then the mapper would edit the map and close the notes. It's only advisable if you know a specific someone will read and answer your notes. I'd say notes as todo lists are ok in some circumstances, such as reminding about a recent/future construction end date, or as a quick survey note-taking tool (which you'll close youself asap). I'm not a big fan of either, but they are reasonable. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
Hello, good morning there, Some answers, and yes, I am JBacc1, closer of many notes in France. I also appreciate that this is (in my memory) the first time some interest is shown on the note feature (outside perhaps dev, that I do not read but was pointed to some interesting messages there). /Well I was surveying some area in France earlier this year and found a spot with missing street names so I marked it/ Well, once again, QA tools exist in France for spotting them, for example: http://layers.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=17lat=48.2973lon=4.07614layers=BTF http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?zoom=14lat=48.95231lon=4.37761layers=B000TFF Had the name of the street been added, I would have been grateful. (And as I like the bad faith: is armchair mapping worst than armchair note opening?) /Do we need a a note etiquette?/ Some of it is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Notes, in the Do's and don'ts section, but could be expanded or be more precise. /But Notes are neither personal notes nor commands to the crowd (go survey). IMO./ Sure, just read the don'ts section: Don't use it to put your personal notes. /I'd consider that a useful note, and certainly within the scope of what notes were intended for./ Bof, just go back to the previous links and add a note on all no-name streets. And for citing the Dos: « for instance the name of a street or an address » /I've been mapping Botswana remotely and many of the villages don't even have proper streets but different sized paths and the smaller ones don't have street names. I'm not posting Notes there about missing street names because quite probably there aren't any or we are unable to get the information until we get a local mapper onboard./ So you agree on different actions depending on the place you map. In France, it seems we have more QA tools, then we may consider notes as « street name missing » as low added value considering this info is already available elsewhere. /Experienced mappers posting specifically worded Notes, for themselves to fix later if possible or for others more knowledgable to work on, sounds like good project management to me./ As long as they are not « personal notes ». And sure, personal notes have been asked for several times, or notes classifications, but to me, it seems that notes have just been added to the main page then forgotten, for example: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2014-February/027728.html (though I've just read this is changing now) JB. Le 30/07/2014 01:26, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson a écrit : Þann 29.7.2014 22:05, skrifaði Andreas Labres: On 29.07.14 22:32, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: Map Notes are in my mind a to-do list obvious problems that require surveying on the ground I disagree with this (principle idea). I disagree with your disagreement. But if the names exist and are really missing because nobody ever looked there any closer, a Note expressing this doesn't help anything. On the contrary. I'm grateful when a Note appears in Iceland stating something similar in a region already with street names (as is the case around this note I posted) because it is usually easy to find out - sometimes its a new road and sometimes we just forgot to map it. It points out an obvious thing, an unnamed street amongst streets with names. I've been mapping Botswana remotely and many of the villages don't even have proper streets but different sized paths and the smaller ones don't have street names. I'm not posting Notes there about missing street names because quite probably there aren't any or we are unable to get the information until we get a local mapper onboard. Experienced mappers posting specifically worded Notes, for themselves to fix later if possible or for others more knowledgable to work on, sounds like good project management to me. If the note doesn't get attended to for a couple of years it still doesn't lose its validity, the streets will still be unnamed until we know better. I've posted Notes at rivers saying Continue drawing upstream and a couple of weeks later the note is resolved by a mapper who was looking for something to do. Notes make people have something to do, whether locally or remotely. A person eager to help opens the editor and then thinks now what?. Notes help us in keeping casual mappers interested. To quote the Notes feature Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so we can fix it. This is verbatim. -Jói ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
useful in what ? That the street names are missing in a town ? Then create a note for missing addresses, shops, pharmacies, etc. Such notes do not help contributors because it is so obvious and does not bring any information or error report helping the others. It just a bit arrongant or coming from people thinking that contributions have to be prioritized like street names before buildings, etc. Hopefully, n otes did not exist at the beginning of OSM when whole countries were blank and someone adds a note here is the capital missing . omg. I cringed a little. Arrogant? You take it WAY too seriously. From my experience in Poland, while some such notes (no X here) DO carry no information (like the ones about turns) even though they're pointing true facts, most of them are useful as it's only a matter of seconds to do the research. As for anonymous people leaving a note and running away, everyone is more than welcome to make this happen: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/776 Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
create a note for missing addresses, shops, pharmacies, etc. Such notes do not help contributors because it is so obvious and does not bring any information or error report helping the others. Missing POIs are not obvious at all. I can't look at openstreetmap.org and see Oh there is a shop or pharmacy missing here. In Germany those notes are very common and mappers usually gladly impelent them. Usually it is also easy to confirm them with a qick google search and some people even post a URL. (The last carto update also made those mappers really happy, because we get a lot of notes for stuff that is in the DB, but not shown on the map) For addresses it depends. A lot of addresses missing in the area? I agree no point in creating notes. A single address missing when everything around is covered? Certaily valid to point that out. It just a bit arrongant or coming from people thinking that contributions have to be prioritized like street names before buildings, etc. Considering I mainly use street names for navigation and to find stuff on the map I don't see how it is arrogant. Dozen of houses missing in an area usually does not make a big difference, a few street names missing on the other hand are much more likely to result in a bad user experiance. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
Hey, I think you are loosing the point. It is different to say « Here is a pharmacy missing » (carry an information) than to say « here is the street name missing » (IMO carry no information). While I like the first one (and even prefer it wher the name is added), I don't like the second, that looks too much as remote note opening, and adds no information (IMO) to the contributor. JB. Le 30/07/2014 10:10, Andreas Goss a écrit : create a note for missing addresses, shops, pharmacies, etc. Such notes do not help contributors because it is so obvious and does not bring any information or error report helping the others. Missing POIs are not obvious at all. I can't look at openstreetmap.org and see Oh there is a shop or pharmacy missing here. In Germany those notes are very common and mappers usually gladly impelent them. Usually it is also easy to confirm them with a qick google search and some people even post a URL. (The last carto update also made those mappers really happy, because we get a lot of notes for stuff that is in the DB, but not shown on the map) For addresses it depends. A lot of addresses missing in the area? I agree no point in creating notes. A single address missing when everything around is covered? Certaily valid to point that out. It just a bit arrongant or coming from people thinking that contributions have to be prioritized like street names before buildings, etc. Considering I mainly use street names for navigation and to find stuff on the map I don't see how it is arrogant. Dozen of houses missing in an area usually does not make a big difference, a few street names missing on the other hand are much more likely to result in a bad user experiance. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
I have used http://regio-osm.de/ and would have been glad if it was the other way round: People pointing out the few places where streets are missing opposed to knowing, well somewhere in the city there is supposed to be a street named xyz, but you have no idea where it is. Obviously here it's the same as I pointed out for addresses it should only be done if almost all of the streetnames in the area are mapped. Am 7/30/14 10:32 , schrieb JB: Hey, I think you are loosing the point. It is different to say « Here is a pharmacy missing » (carry an information) than to say « here is the street name missing » (IMO carry no information). While I like the first one (and even prefer it wher the name is added), I don't like the second, that looks too much as remote note opening, and adds no information (IMO) to the contributor. JB. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:32 AM, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hey, I think you are loosing the point. It is different to say « Here is a pharmacy missing » (carry an information) than to say « here is the street name missing » (IMO carry no information). Well, a note saying here is THIS street or group of street names missing is still helpful. But a note saying ALL street names or ALL buildings or ALL addresses are missing in this town is not helpful at all because everyone can observe this and write such remarks. Notes have to bring some information or point out mistakes, not general comments about how slow the crowd is filling the geodata in a big area. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
Am 30.07.2014 11:05, schrieb Pieren: On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 10:32 AM, JB jb...@mailoo.org wrote: Hey, I think you are loosing the point. It is different to say « Here is a pharmacy missing » (carry an information) than to say « here is the street name missing » (IMO carry no information). Well, a note saying here is THIS street or group of street names missing is still helpful. But a note saying ALL street names or ALL buildings or ALL addresses are missing in this town is not helpful at all because everyone can observe this and write such remarks. Notes have to bring some information or point out mistakes, not general comments about how slow the crowd is filling the geodata in a big area. +1 Well, I had to train my local anonymous note creators, but now I get really useful information and, yes, I usually get answers from them quite fast, if I add a comment. If the information is missing important parts or even if I like to know more than only the name of the street, I often add questions as comment. I thought street names are included in cadastre-fr, e.g. you should be able to get the name with little investigation, other wise a comment about a missing name in cadastra-fr and a needed survey would be nice. Cheers colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
Akward moment, I though my French escaped my brain somehow but it didn't. so what (in French Oui. Quels sont-ils ?) 'Oui, Quels sont-ils?' means: Yes, which ones are they? ! So he's asking if you know the names of the missing street. Glenn On 29-07-14 22:32, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: The previous discussion about apparent automated Notes spam in various places about speed limits brought one comment I found interesting, where JB said but in France, I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note. Well I was surveying some area in France earlier this year and found a spot with missing street names so I marked it in and a JBacc1 (same JB?) commented so what (in French Oui. Quels sont-ils ?) and resolved it thus. I reopened it with a comment of my own, I found this approach very strange because Map Notes are in my mind a to-do list obvious problems that require surveying on the ground. The note in question is this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/182123 Do we need a a note etiquette? I watch over Notes created and closed in Iceland and delete obvious spam (two notes yesterday with dfasfasdfafsd) but keep them open if they are genuine. --Jói ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Everything is going to be 200 OK. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
Am 30.07.2014 15:58, schrieb Glenn Plas: Akward moment, I though my French escaped my brain somehow but it didn't. so what (in French Oui. Quels sont-ils ?) 'Oui, Quels sont-ils?' means: Yes, which ones are they? ! So he's asking if you know the names of the missing street. and closing the note. Therefor you need to have a login to reopen in order to be able to comment and it will disappear after one week. Not the best way to get an answer. cu co signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
On Jul 29, 2014 3:35 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson j...@betra.is wrote: I reopened it with a comment of my own, I found this approach very strange because Map Notes are in my mind a to-do list obvious problems that require surveying on the ground. Speaking as someone who currently accounts for probably around 40% of the open notes, I use notes for this as well as on the ground observations. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
On 30/07/2014 15:08, colliar wrote: Am 30.07.2014 15:58, schrieb Glenn Plas: ... So he's asking if you know the names of the missing street. and closing the note. Therefor you need to have a login to reopen in order to be able to comment and it will disappear after one week. Not the best way to get an answer. ... which is exactly the problem here - closing notes in this way just seems downright rude. I'm sure that it's done with the best of intentions, but put yourself in the shoes of the person who didn't have a login but took the time to contribute e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/208292 . There's actually nothing on the page that a non-logged-in person sees that tells a user that if they create an account they'll be able to supply the name of the shop as requested. Closing notes prematurely has another effect too - it stops other people who happen to be passing from contributing the information. For example, if I'm going walking on an evening anywhere I'll always do an Garmin extract of notes for the area first, so that if I happen to be going past somewhere that someone's asked about I may be able to answer the question (even if I wasn't the person who added the original note). Obviously some notes are of the we're all meeting at this place at 10am variety and add no value, so closing them does no harm, but most open notes (even perhaps none of the streets here have names) are useful. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
Þann 30.7.2014 19:50, skrifaði SomeoneElse: On 30/07/2014 15:08, colliar wrote: Am 30.07.2014 15:58, schrieb Glenn Plas: ... So he's asking if you know the names of the missing street. and closing the note. Therefor you need to have a login to reopen in order to be able to comment and it will disappear after one week. Not the best way to get an answer. ... which is exactly the problem here - closing notes in this way just seems downright rude. I'm sure that it's done with the best of intentions I think this might be an important point, I myself who have not accessed the OSM-tools the French have which show all missing names etc (I use similar tools for Iceland granted) and am unaware of all the OSM-related datasets and procedures found this to be a tad rude to close it thus. But I completely understand the viewpoint of JB who looks at all the tools he has bookmarked. However he might consider that others do not have those bookmarks, do not have all that information, procedures, know-how and it is them that contribute to Notes, both by opening and commenting and resolving them. I've had random people close Notes I created because they happened to be there or knew the place or contributed via remote mapping (like when I say continue this road or continue this river). We need to have faith in the good intentions of others, my Note was made in sincerity since I noticed adjacent streets had names, others contribute Notes in that same good faith. Whether or not there are other tools available that make some of the Notes surplus to requirements is besides the point there in my mind. --Jói ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
On 29.07.14 22:32, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: Map Notes are in my mind a to-do list obvious problems that require surveying on the ground I disagree with this (principle idea). Notes were created as an easy means for non-mappers (or less experienced mappers) to give some kind of hint where they don't know how to fix the problem themselves. For instance, you (as a non-mapper) look at the map, see the street has no name, but you know for sure that this street is named bla. You have no clue how to edit OSM, but you can put a note saying this street here is named bla, there is a sign there saying this, I saw it yesterday. Then some mapper will fix it for you. The comment feature is a nice idea to ask back if something is unclear. But it is broken by idea, as the original - anonymous - poster will never ever come back and see it. OTOH it is misused (IMO) by experienced mappers for discussions that should take place somewhere else (ML, forum, e-mail, Stammtisch,...). But Notes are neither personal notes nor commands to the crowd (go survey). IMO. Coming back to I was surveying some area in France earlier this year and found a spot with missing street names I don't know about France, but here in Austria there are residential roads (especially in rural areas) that don't have names. I tend to put a noname=yes tag but where comes the idea from that there is something *missing*? Of course, a foreign mapper could stumble upon this and ask - via Notes - why there are no name tags. And the answer should be that there are no street names there (and perhaps tagging a noname=yes). But if the names exist and are really missing because nobody ever looked there any closer, a Note expressing this doesn't help anything. /al ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
On 7/29/2014 1:32 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: Well I was surveying some area in France earlier this year and found a spot with missing street names so I marked it in and a JBacc1 (same JB?) commented so what (in French Oui. Quels sont-ils ?) and resolved it thus. I reopened it with a comment of my own, I found this approach very strange because Map Notes are in my mind a to-do list obvious problems that require surveying on the ground. The note in question is this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/182123 I'd consider that a useful note, and certainly within the scope of what notes were intended for. On the other hand, if there were an entire region with no street names in the data, I'd be less inclined to consider a note pointing out a neighborhood missing names as useful. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: I'd consider that a useful note, and certainly within the scope of what notes were intended for. ?! useful in what ? That the street names are missing in a town ? Then create a note for missing addresses, shops, pharmacies, etc. Such notes do not help contributors because it is so obvious and does not bring any information or error report helping the others. It just a bit arrongant or coming from people thinking that contributions have to be prioritized like street names before buildings, etc. Hopefully, notes did not exist at the beginning of OSM when whole countries were blank and someone adds a note here is the capital missing . omg. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Using Notes in France
Þann 29.7.2014 22:05, skrifaði Andreas Labres: On 29.07.14 22:32, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: Map Notes are in my mind a to-do list obvious problems that require surveying on the ground I disagree with this (principle idea). I disagree with your disagreement. But if the names exist and are really missing because nobody ever looked there any closer, a Note expressing this doesn't help anything. On the contrary. I'm grateful when a Note appears in Iceland stating something similar in a region already with street names (as is the case around this note I posted) because it is usually easy to find out - sometimes its a new road and sometimes we just forgot to map it. It points out an obvious thing, an unnamed street amongst streets with names. I've been mapping Botswana remotely and many of the villages don't even have proper streets but different sized paths and the smaller ones don't have street names. I'm not posting Notes there about missing street names because quite probably there aren't any or we are unable to get the information until we get a local mapper onboard. Experienced mappers posting specifically worded Notes, for themselves to fix later if possible or for others more knowledgable to work on, sounds like good project management to me. If the note doesn't get attended to for a couple of years it still doesn't lose its validity, the streets will still be unnamed until we know better. I've posted Notes at rivers saying Continue drawing upstream and a couple of weeks later the note is resolved by a mapper who was looking for something to do. Notes make people have something to do, whether locally or remotely. A person eager to help opens the editor and then thinks now what?. Notes help us in keeping casual mappers interested. To quote the Notes feature Spotted a mistake or something missing? Let other mappers know so we can fix it. This is verbatim. -Jói ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
