Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

JD your dylexia has kicked in again. We who are 
born through procreation are created in the "image" of the
first Adam. They were here first already and 
the tree of life is what they were encouraged toeat from. to
say they were walking in death right then is pure 
unwarranted speculation; why would a God og life create them 
in death?

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like 
  us -- which includes the fact that they were created 
  "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. 
  
  
  jd-Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 
  00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
  

  
  
  
  So Cain and Abel were children # 1 
  and #2. and when Cain killed 
  Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where 
  did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve 
  were not the only people created. But that is not a popular 
  opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain 
  was afraid of his own people
  
  jd
  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: 
  Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
  

  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
But why did they not have children until they were 
1) changed into mortal beings

I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE 
Months AFTER the FACT!
  Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends 
  with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: 
  
  "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she 
  conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the 
  Lord."
  Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But 
  no timetable is given.
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  Blainerb:Ha! I agree, 
  it was a good commandment! But why did they not have 
  children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out 
  of the garden?
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Iwasn't there Blaine. If you 
don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, 
however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to 
keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 

  
  Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to 
  the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? 
  :)
  Blainerb
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  I think you might have missed 
something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would 
not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to 
"Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 
1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  Blainerb: You seem 
  to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, 
  Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us 
  including your wonderful self wouldeven be 
  here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect 
  little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even 
  caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good 
  righteous... Is that what you think the Lord really 
  wanted? 
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard 
  Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  

Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of 
wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of 
good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat 
from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - 
is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. 
One leads to life and the other to death.
 
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 
  2:4)
  
  
  
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:45:44 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  being over protective through fear is one 
  thingDAVEH: That seems to be a tactic of some 
  Christians. For instance, the whole commonly believed scenario about 
  hell being a literal punitive torturous form of punishment is an example that 
  I see driving some people away from Christianity. I'm sure there will be 
  some SPers who will point to their successes by using such methodology, but 
  that does not necessarily offset the numbers of those who are turned off by 
  such rhetoric.
  
  They may be turned off at that moment but who knows 
  whether or not a seed has been planted that God will
  water at a later date? That was John the 
  Baptists ministry ie "the axe will be layed to the root of the tree of 
  those
  who do not repent"This is what the wisdom of the world 
  teaches.DAVEH: Have you ever read of some of 
  the examples where groups of people were decimated by diseases brought into 
  their environment by outsiders? 
  
  Yes and usually these groups were already compromised 
  by sin. The American indians were pagan god
  worshippers and the Australian aborigines were 
  animists leaving both wide open.God has 
  given us an immune system which should be able to throw off anything that 
  comes our wayDAVEH: I tend to agree with you on this 
  to a point, Judy. Though I don't view it as an 
  immune system, but rather as inoculation. We aren't born with 
  a resistance to sin, but we achieve it as we become one with the Lord. I 
  think it was Paul who explained the analogy of putting on the armor of 
  God. We aren't born with that armor, but acquire it as we grow in 
  Christ. The tree of life is "pure, 
  peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His 
  creation to eat from.DAVEH: Then why do you think God 
  kept AE from partaking of it after they transgressed?
  
  Because they would have lived forever in their fallen 
  and demonized state and He will not haveany devils in heaven; but he did 
  make for them a way of escape planned before the foundation of the 
  world.The other tree - the one the 
  serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and 
  demonic.DAVEH:: You've lost me on that one, 
  Judy. Are you saying the tree of knowledge of good and evil is earthly, sensual, and 
  demonic? If so, it sounds like you are 
  implying that God planted something evil in the Garden of Eden in an effort to 
  tempt AE. If that is what you are suggesting, do you have Biblical 
  evidence to support your theory? 
  
  I am saying He allowed it -to test their faith 
  and they bit. It came in the form of the serpent who spoke to Eve 

  He was full of wisdom from the other tree. In 
  the gospels you will remember the parable of the sower who sows
  the good seed which is God's Word (Jesus explains) 
  and the enemy who sows another word making tares
  which will be separated from the wheat in the last 
  day. Same idea. FWIWI had the 
  impression that Gen 1 suggests exactly the opposite12] 
  And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and 
  the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw 
  that it was good..That the trees God created were 
  good. Reading Gen 2..
  
  We are not talking about "fruit" trees here DaveH; in 
  the garden there are two trees that have to do with
  different kinds of knowledge or 
  wisdom.[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to 
  grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of 
  life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree 
  of knowledge of good and evildoes not give me the 
  impression that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was in 
  itself evil. If you disagree, I'd like to understand why you think 
  such. 
  
  Because Jesus says that nothing that goes into the 
  mouth is of itself evil - it just goes in and comes out in the draught. It is 
  what comes out of the heart that defiles the man - and these two trees had 
  that kind of power.Judy Taylor wrote: 
  

DaveH writes:
 FWIW.While it may be noble to want to keep one's 
children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their 
children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the 
world. 

Not necessarily; being over protective through 
fear is one thing. Teaching children spiritual discernment in the 
fear of God is another because then the parent has His power and watchful 
eye on their side.

I see it similar to communicable illnesses. You could raise your 
kid in a bubble and he would live a germ/virus free life. But once he 
enters the real world, he would be extremely vulnerable to catching a slew 
of nasty bugs. Isn't it much better to allow your kid be exposed to 
such hazards so that he can become inoculated against the 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE

[Judy Taylor]

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:04:35 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  DAVEH: It is not that I disagree with what you said below, 
  Judy.But, I think you've gone off topic. We are discussing AE's 
  transgression, not our own. As soon as they were cast out of the Garden 
  for their transgression, I think they pretty well knew they had no grounds to 
  accuse Him of beingunloving or unjust. 
  To think that God put them through that test 
  just to prove to them the consequences of 
  disobedience seems a little illogical to me, Judy. 
  
  How is it illogical? When you being evil tell 
  your child if you do that I will spank you. When they do it and 
  you
  spank them - why is warning them 
  illogical?Just jumping on them out of the blue would be illogical 
  to me. Ponder that God foreordained Jesus to 
  be AE's Savior even before AE were created. He then created a 
  universe just for AE, and then a planet with all the goodies to keep 
  AE alive, and then a Garden full of everything they would need to live 
  forever in a very pure and comfortable environment. Then God plants one 
  evil tree (from your perspective) and turns Satan loose in paradise to have a 
  go at tempting AE just to test AE in an effort to prove to AE 
  that they will not have grounds toaccuse Him of 
  beingunloving or unjust. Whew!!!.To me that sure 
  seems like a lot of effort for minimal return, Judy.
  
  Makes sense to me DaveH but then I accept God's Word, 
  I don't try to second guess him or figure out a better
  way to do things. It is written already and sealed in 
  heaven so to me allspeculation is a big waste of time and
  does not lead to peace and 
  rest.. Please don't think that I am 
  trying to minimize the import of this topicnothing could be further from 
  the truth. To me, understanding the circumstances of the Fall is 
  extremely important. It just seems from my perspective that the commonly 
  believed Christian perspective regarding the Fall doesn't really explain why 
  it happened, which is why I find it interesting to learn what you believe 
  about it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
  
  Let me get this straight - you are saying that the 
  Christians have all been deceived about why the fall happened
  and you Mormons are the only ones who know the facts 
  of the matter?? Am I hearing correctly??Judy Taylor 
  wrote: 
  

When all of us stand before God at the great white 
throne judgment... we have to know where we failed. Noone 
will have grounds toaccuse Him of 
beingunloving or unjust because we will have condemned ourselves and 

we will know thiswithout anyone having to tell us... So the test 
is for us rather than for Him. judyt

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:36:28 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  To test them 
  DaveHDAVEH: ??? Do you not think 
  God knew their faith, Judy? Why do you think God would need to test 
  them, since he created themknowing they would transgress?Judy 
  Taylor wrote: 
  

To test them DaveH. Faith 
is ALWAYS tested.

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:24:10 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  He did not plan for them to fall.DAVEH: If 
  that is so, then why do you think he placed the tree of knowledge of 
  good and evil in the Garden of Eden, Terry? 
  Rather than go to all the trouble of preparing a remedy for the fall, 
  would it have not been immensely easier to simply not have put the 
  tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden? IOWthere 
  must have been a reason for God to put the tree there. 
  Seems like it would be important to understand for what the purpose 
  the Lord placed that tree there. Why do you think, 
  Terry?Terry Clifton wrote: 
  This seems so obvious that it should be hard to 
miss, but if you have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect 
it would be hard to accept.God is omnicient, He knew they 
would sin. He did not plan for them to fall. He 
planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.As to their 
descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can do is 
speculate, and speculation often leads to 
error.=Dave 
Hansen wrote: 
He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for 
  everyone?if they had not they 
  would have saved themselves and the rest of 
  humanity all of the heartache, 
  suffering, and misery that has been the human lot since 
  then.DAVEH: Thank you two for 
  your comments, both of which focus in one facet of the AE 
  situation of which I am most keen. One of my earliest 
  religious 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Taylor]

I think probably, John, that all humanity had to 
have come through Adam and Eve. This does not mean that Cain and then Abel had 
tohave beentheir first children (I guess), but in order for Christ 
to be the go'el or Kinsmen Redeemer of 
mankind,there has to have been a common ancestry, i.e., a common 
bloodline. That is the significance of Luke taking Jesus' genealogy all the way 
back to Adam: Christ therefore as the Second Man was qualified to represent 
everyone represented by the first man.

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:27 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  
  
  
  So Cain and Abel were children # 1 
  and #2. and when Cain killed 
  Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where 
  did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve 
  were not the only people created. But that is not a popular 
  opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain 
  was afraid of his own people
  
  jd
  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: 
  Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
  

  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
But why did they not have children until they were 
1) changed into mortal beings

I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE 
Months AFTER the FACT!
  Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends 
  with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: 
  
  "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she 
  conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the 
  Lord."
  Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But 
  no timetable is given.
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  Blainerb:Ha! I agree, 
  it was a good commandment! But why did they not have 
  children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out 
  of the garden?
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain 
to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a 
great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 

  
  Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to 
  the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? 
  :)
  Blainerb
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There 
is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there 
had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" 
came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 

  
  Blainerb: You seem 
  to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, 
  Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us 
  including your wonderful self wouldeven be 
  here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect 
  little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even 
  caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good 
  righteous.. Is that what you think the Lord really 
  wanted? 
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard 
  Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  

Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of 
wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of 
good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat 
from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - 
is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. 
One leads to life and the other to death.
 
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 
  2:4)
  
  
  

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Taylor]

Agreed.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:33 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  
  
  
  Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like 
  us -- which includes the fact that they were created 
  "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. 
  
  
  jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: 
  Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  

  
  
  
  So Cain and Abel were children # 1 
  and #2. and when Cain killed 
  Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where 
  did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve 
  were not the only people created. But that is not a popular 
  opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain 
  was afraid of his own people
  
  jd
  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: 
  Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
  

  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
But why did they not have children until they were 
1) changed into mortal beings

I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE 
Months AFTER the FACT!
  Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends 
  with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: 
  
  "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she 
  conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the 
  Lord."
  Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But 
  no timetable is given.
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  Blainerb:Ha! I agree, 
  it was a good commandment! But why did they not have 
  children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out 
  of the garden?
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain 
to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a 
great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to 
  the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? 
  :)
  Blainerb
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There 
is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there 
had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" 
came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  Blainerb: You seem 
  to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, 
  Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us 
  including your wonderful self wouldeven be 
  here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect 
  little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even 
  caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good 
  righteous... Is that what you think the Lord really 
  wanted? 
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard 
  Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  

Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of 
wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of 
good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat 
from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - 
is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. 
One leads to life and the other to death.
 
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 
  2:4)
  
  
  

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

What is the evidence?

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:20:21 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Agreed.
  
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like 
us -- which includes the fact that they were created 
"mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the 
garden. 

jdFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





So Cain and Abel were children # 1 
and #2. and when Cain killed 
Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where 
did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and 
Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a 
popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin 
-- Cain was afraid of his own people

jd
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  But why did they not have children until they 
  were 1) changed into mortal beings
  
  I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE 
  Months AFTER the FACT!
Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends 
with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: 

"And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she 
conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the 
Lord."
Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden 
But no timetable is given.

  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Blainerb:Ha! I 
agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not 
have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) 
forced out of the garden?

In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, 
  complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, 
  think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. 
  ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  

Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to 
the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? 
:)
Blainerb

In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard 
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think you might have missed something, Blaine. 
  There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if 
  there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and 
  multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 
  1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  

Blainerb: You 
seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God 
are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us 
including your wonderful self wouldeven 
be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in 
their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and 
not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and 
goody-good righteous... Is that what you think the Lord 
really wanted? 

In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard 
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of 
  wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full 
  of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to 
  eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was 
  promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take 
  your pick. One leads to life and the other to 
  death.
   
  judyt 
  He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
  Commandments 
  is a liar (1 John 
2:4)



   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Taylor]

Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, Judy. 
Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not 
havedied, their mortality being the potential to die in the absence of the 
sustenance supplied by the tree of life: "'And now, lest he put out his hand and 
take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God 
banished him from the Garden . . ."

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 2:14 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  
  JD your dylexia has kicked in again. We who are 
  born through procreation are created in the "image" of the
  first Adam. They were here first already 
  and the tree of life is what they were encouraged toeat from. 
  to
  say they were walking in death right then is pure 
  unwarranted speculation; why would a God og life create them 
  in death?
  
  On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  


Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like 
us -- which includes the fact that they were created 
"mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the 
garden. 

jd-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 
2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE





So Cain and Abel were children # 1 
and #2. and when Cain killed 
Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where 
did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and 
Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a 
popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin 
-- Cain was afraid of his own people

jd
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 
ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE



In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  But why did they not have children until they 
  were 1) changed into mortal beings
  
  I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE 
  Months AFTER the FACT!
Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends 
with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: 

"And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she 
conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the 
Lord."
Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden 
But no timetable is given.

  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

Blainerb:Ha! I 
agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not 
have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) 
forced out of the garden?

In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Iwasn't there Blaine. If 
  you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. 
  I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest 
  commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote: 
  

Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to 
the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? 
:)
Blainerb

In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard 
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think you might have missed 
  something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy 
  would not have been here if there had been no fall. The 
  command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the 
  fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  

Blainerb: You 
seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God 
are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us 
including your wonderful self wouldeven 
be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in 
their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and 
not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and 
goody-good righteous... Is that what you think the Lord 
really wanted? 

In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard 
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of 
  wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full 
  of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to 
  eat from. 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

So they were created one of two ways. They were 
either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - 
OR they were created like us which is mortal 
and dying as we live with access to the tree of 
life?

Why would a God of life in whom there is no darkness or 
shadow of turning create a dying people? AE
chose death in disobedience.

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:33:36 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, 
  Judy. Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not 
  havedied, their mortality being the potential to die 
  in the absence of the sustenance supplied by the tree of life: "'And 
  now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and 
  live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him from the Garden . . 
  ."
  
  Bill
  
From: Judy Taylor 

JD your dylexia has kicked in again. We who 
are born through procreation are created in the "image" of the
first Adam. They were here first already 
and the tree of life is what they were encouraged toeat from. 
to
say they were walking in death right then is pure 
unwarranted speculation; why would a God og life create them 
in death?

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just 
  like us -- which includes the fact that they were created 
  "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the 
  garden. 
  
  jd-Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 
  2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
Subject-AE
  

  
  
  
  So Cain and Abel were children # 
  1 and #2. and when Cain 
  killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I 
  mean, where did those people come from? I personally 
  believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. 
  But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with 
  the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own 
  people
  
  jd
  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
  TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 
  ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
  

  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
But why did they not have children until they 
were 1) changed into mortal beings

I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE 
Months AFTER the FACT!
  Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis 
  ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: 
  
  "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she 
  conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the 
  Lord."
  Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden 
  But no timetable is given.
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  Blainerb:Ha! I 
  agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they 
  not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 
  2) forced out of the garden?
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Iwasn't there Blaine. If 
you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not 
me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the 
easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior 
  to the Fall?? What sacrilege is 
  this?? :)
  Blainerb
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard 
  Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  I think you might have missed 
something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy 
would not have been here if there had been no fall. The 
command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the 
fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  Blainerb: You 
  seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God 
  are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of 
  us including your wonderful self wouldeven 
  be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in 
  their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil 
  and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally 
  pure and goody-good righteous... Is that what you think 
  the Lord really wanted? 
  

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  From: Judy Taylor 
  

So they were created one of two ways. They 
were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - 

OR they were created like us which is mortal 
and dying as we live with access to the tree of 
life?

More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what 
has been said and see the distinction.

No strawman here 
Bill.

Why would a God of life in whom there is no 
darkness or shadow of turning create a dying people? 

He did not create a "dying people."

What is the meaning of the word "mortal"? 
It is"subject to death, or destined to die?" We who are 
procreated are born mortal because of the first Adam's disobedience. 
He fell from something Bill. So from whence did he 
fall? From mortal to 
mortal?

AE chose death by 
their disobedience.

Adam and Eve chose disobedience, death being the consequence of their 
actions: "The wages of sin is death ... " 

Exactly - and if they were mortal already, 
that is, if God created them mortal then He chose it for 
them
before they got the chance to 
disobey. jt



On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:33:36 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, 
  Judy. Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not 
  havedied, their mortality being the potential to 
  die in the absence of the sustenance supplied by the tree of life: 
  "'And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and 
  eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him from the Garden . . 
  ."
  
  Bill
  
From: Judy 
Taylor 

JD your dylexia has kicked in again. We 
who are born through procreation are created in the "image" of 
the
first Adam. They were here first 
already and the tree of life is what they were encouraged 
toeat from. to
say they were walking in death right then is 
pure unwarranted speculation; why would a God og life create them 

in death?

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just 
  like us -- which includes the fact that they were created 
  "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the 
  garden. 
  
  jd-Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 
  Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  

  
  
  
  So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and 
  #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who 
  was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people 
  come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not 
  the only people created. But that is not a popular 
  opinion.If we go with the standard opin 
  -- Cain was afraid of his own people
  
  jd
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 
  Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  

  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
But why did they not have children until 
they were 1) changed into mortal 
beings

I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come 
NINE Months AFTER the FACT!
  Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis 
  ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as 
  follows: 
  "And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she 
  conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from 
  the Lord."
  Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the 
  garden But no timetable is given.
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  Blainerb:Ha! 
  I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did 
  they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal 
  beings, and 2) forced out of the garden?
  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard 
  Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Iwasn't there 
Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He 
ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great 
idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Blainerb473]

Hmmm, bad water gets blamed for a lot. My neighbor's dog drank some 
ethylene glycol anti-freeze off my garage floor and died within 36 hours. 
Went into a coma. Tch tch. That will teach him to use my lawn for a 
pooping ground, huh? 
Blainerb

In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:30:53 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Probably 
  something in the water.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  


Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! 
But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed 
into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the 
garden?

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Blainerb473]

I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like 
Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was 
jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until 
Able was"removed,"at least.  

In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  So Cain and Abel were children # 1 
  and #2. and when Cain killed 
  Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where 
  did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve 
  were not the only people created. But that is not a popular 
  opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain 
  was afraid of his own people
  
  jd

Re: [TruthTalk] Mr. Cleo

[Kevin Deegan]

  temple stone!  Du 17 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded  Du 18 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.There are seven stars in the sign or constellation of the Big Dipper on the Salt Lake Temple,explained by President Harold B. Lee "to represent the great truth that through the
 priesthood of God the lost may find their way." Harold B.Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places, p. 251  Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.2 Kings 23:5,11 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven. And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the
 house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which [was] in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.  http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2000/mormastr2.html#fn12  Enoch, Abraham, and Moses all had revelations on astronomy, and Joseph Smith called the first newspaper of the Church The Evening and the Morning Star. Why this preoccupation with the heavens?  Just as the Savior was born and sacrificed on special Hebrew calendar days, so was the Prophet Joseph Smith. His birth on Monday, 23 December 1805 coincided with the Hebrew day marking the winter solstice, leading to the suggestion that it symbolized the return of the light of the gospel to a dark world.(Proctor, Scot Facer, Witness
 of the Light, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, p. 22) Moreover, Thursday, 27 June 1844, the day on which the Prophet went "like a lamb to the slaughter" (DC 135:4), was one of four Hebrew "days of atonement" ( the day of atonement on which joe was "martyed")The Law of Moses actually required priests to sacrifice two lambs every day: one in the morning and one in the afternoon (Num. 28:3-8). Because the Hebrew day begins about sunset, the morning sacrifice was near the meridian of the 24-hour Hebrew day, and the afternoon sacrifice was near the end of the day. The morning sacrifice appears to have represented Jesus Christ, who would come in the meridian of time, and the afternoon lamb might well have symbolized the Prophet Joseph Smith, who came in
 the latter days and did "more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it" (DC 135:3).  Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Blaine, the resident TT astrologer says, " and the sunstone with the round-faced image of god". Is god's face round like the sun? Does the sun have a face like god's? Does god have a literal face? Are god and the sun the same that anyone should combine them in an image? Can you say "Sun worship"? "Graven Images"?"When the suun is in the seventh house...and Ju-pi-ter aligns with Mars.Pce will guide the pla-a-nuts, and lve will guide the stars, this is the dawning of the age of aquarius, the age of aguarius...aquris...aquriiiuuus".Gee, that
 was fun. I haven't sung that since Pluto was in the doghouse.Blaine, can you explain what the age of aquarius is, if we are now in the age of aquarius, and how that squares with your mormon beliefs, or how it does not?Do you believe Nostradamus to be an authentic prognosticator of the future? What evidence do you have of the truth of his prophecies?Thanks,PerryFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaine Autumn equinox Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:44:19 ESTBlainerb: Sounds more like some of Joseph Smith's tom-foolery! He wasfamous for saying ridiculous things for a laugh! Once while the Nauvoo templewas being built, and the sunstone with the round-faced image of God carved onit was about to be put into place, someone asked if that was what God
 lookedlike. He replied that it was, except his nose was just a smidgeon wider!Both he and the man who asked the question got a good laugh! Where is yoursense of humor, Kevin?In a message dated 12/7/2005 9:14:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Joe was an Occultist who sacrificed animalsKevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:The angel appeared on September 22 every year four years in a row. None ofthe other dates corresponded to Trumpets.It had more to do with being a observer of SIGNS in the heavens. Jo was anAstrologer who did all his "work" on days of Occult and Astrologic significancePagans observe the "holy day" of the Autumn Equinox on the date in 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Blainerb473]

In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like 
  us -- which includes the fact that they were created 
  "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. 
  
  
  jd

They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the 
apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. 
Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. 
I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time 
asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you 
staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But 
steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :)
Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which 
indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the 
good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that 
time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them 
from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored 
their immortality. 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Kevin Deegan]

They had another brother called Ready[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least.  In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own peoplejd
	
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Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Taylor]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  
  
  
  On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
From: Judy Taylor 

  
  So they were created one of two ways. They 
  were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - 
  
  OR they were created like us which is mortal 
  and dying as we live with access to the tree of 
  life?
  
  More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to 
  what has been said and see the distinction.
  
  No strawman here 
  Bill.
  
  When you add the word "dying" to our 
  words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying 
  people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW 
  were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. 
  Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a 
  people with the potential to die. If you will accept this distinction, I 
  will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to 
  discuss.
  
  Bill

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Kevin Deegan]

Are you willing to BET your Life on this?  They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :)  Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to
 prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jdThey did not
 seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :)  Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality.   
	
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Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject--AE

[Lance Muir]

This IS the sort of thing I was looking for. YES 
I'd like for you to post the 'newer' material.

thanks,

Lance

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Dave Hansen 
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 09, 2005 02:34
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject--AE
  DAVEH: Sorry to take so long getting back to you on this, 
  Lance. While I can give you a longer version than before, I 
  certainly can't give you all the details, as I have neither the time (I do 
  need some sleep!) nor the knowledge. 
  But... As you must know, I believe God created 
  us spiritually prior to the creation of the world. IOWwe were spirit 
  beings in a pre-mortal existence. It is my belief that God the Father 
  consists of a spirit housed in a physical body. He created us as spirit 
  beings, with the intent that we could (if we desire and are obedient) become 
  not only one with him, but also perfect (complete, as Perry would suggest) as 
  he is perfect. That basic process is known by LDS 
  folks as eternal progressioneffectively progressing from a created 
  spirit being to one who is like God. As has been often quoted, one LDS 
  authority said...As man is, God once was. As God is, man 
  may become..which is a catchy phrase that tends to excite 
  many Christians, yet it implies the thinking of many LDS folks who believe we 
  have the potential to become like GodIFF we so desire to fulfill our 
  potential to become one with the Lord by being obedient to him. Those 
  who do so, bring glory to the Lord. Those who don't will suffer 
  damnation (hell) to some extent, by impeding their eternal 
  progression. In order that the spirit beings in the 
  pre-mortal existence can progress to the point of gaining a glorified 
  resurrected body of flesh and bone, as the Savior now has, it was necessary 
  for us to be born into a world created perfectly, so to speak. Adam and 
  Eve were created as immortals, and as such were incapable of death. Not 
  only that, but they were incapable of understanding the difference between 
  good and evilthey were innocent. Yes, they were pure and undefiled, 
  but yet they were also naive in their innocence.quite unlike God who knows 
  the difference between good and evil. By placing the 
  tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, and then commanding them not 
  to eat of that tree, explaining that they would die IF they partook of the 
  forbidden fruit, God made it possible for them to not only gain the knowledge 
  needed to become like him, but he also provided a way they could shed their 
  bodies of flesh and bloodby dying, which separates the spirit from the 
  body. In partaking of the forbidden fruit, not only 
  did AE subject themselves to the possibility of physical death (which we 
  define as the separation of the spirit from the physical body), but they also 
  were separated from God.which we define as spiritual 
  death. In essence, this resulted in AE experiencing two 
  forms of hellfirst the separation from God, and second being returned to 
  the state of a spirit being, without the ability to overcome that 
  deficit. Hence, they would remain in that eternal state of damnation 
  forever, if it were not for God's plan of 
  salvation. That plan of salvation was prepared 
  before the foundation of the world, and Jesus was chosen to implement 
  it. God prepared his Son to be a perfect sacrifice to atone for 
  AE's (and all of mankind's) transgressions. Not only that, but the 
  Son he foreordained to save us from our (specifically, AE's in this 
  instance) sins also was able to overcome physical death in a process we know 
  as the resurrection. Neither of these impediments to our progression 
  were things we could overcome on our own though. We had to have a Savior 
  do that for us. Due to his resurrection, all will be resurrected and 
  gain an immortal physical body. Due to his atonement, all will have the 
  opportunity to have their sins remitted and return to heaven IF they so desire 
  and are willing to be obedient to the Lord's commandments. That is why 
  it is through his grace that we are saved...nothing we could do on our own 
  could accomplish that salvation. Once Jesus fulfilled that mantle of 
  salvation (both physical and spiritual), the only thing standing between us 
  and God is ourselves. Effectively...We can either keep the 
  commandments, and return to the Lord in heaven, or we can eschew them and 
  suffer damnation (impedance) to our eternal 
  progression. I hope that answers your query, 
  Lance. If you want a slightly deeper (and different) view of the Fall, I 
  can post an interesting perspective of the Fall that was recently posted to an 
  LDS Forum.just let me know if that appeals to you.Lance Muir 
  wrote: 
  

PLEASE DAVE,

I would appreciate the longer explanation so as 
not to confuse those less 

Re: [TruthTalk] The Triune God, Holy Scripture Interpretation - Why diverse...

[Lance Muir]

Blainerb:

Thanks for taking the time to read/respond to these. I'll read and respond 
to you as time permits.

Lance

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 08, 2005 18:51
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Triune God, 
  Holy Scripture  Interpretation - Why diverse...
  
  
  Blainerb: These are great questions, Lance, I 
  don't usually bother, but I even took time to look up some of your words in my 
  dictionary to be sure I understood them. :) See my comments in blue 
  below:
  
  In a message dated 12/7/2005 5:16:02 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Are we promised any more than 'enough' 
understanding to facilitate salvation?
  I think you may not expect more than you are willing 
  to receive, Lance. Joseph Smith was not allowed to open the sealed 
  portion of the golden plates, due to the pride and unbelief that was 
  projected among the Gentile population. Even the parts he did translate 
  are usually rejected by those who pretend to beteachers of the 
  gospel. 
  

Does 'study' matter when it comes to 
Scripture? What's entailed in this 
  'study'?
  
  Study is productive, assuming the Holy Spirit is 
  taken as one's guide. Without it, studyresults in "ever 
  learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."
  

What is the role of the Holy Spirit 
inapprehending the 'gospel', the act of exegesis, the act of 
exposition (either spoken or written), office/sign 
  gifts?
  
  I'd say it is critical. See the parable of the 
  Ten Virgins. Those who took the Holy Spirit for their guides were 
  prepared to enter into the covenant relationship as the "Bride" to the 
  Bridegroom. Those who were not prepared by the Spirit were not 
  spiritually prepared for the marriage. 
  

Is there even the possibility of the 
entire believing community, globally, coming to a unitary understanding of 
the entire corpus of Scripture?
  
  Ideally, there is no reason why not. But 
  practically speaking, I see little or no hope. Human pride is the reason 
  it will never happen. Every man does his own thing, becomes egoistically 
  married to his position, and that leads to strife, wherein the devil may then 
  play his games amongst us. 
  

Do even the most mature (godly/holy/sanctified) 
believers possess only a partial/limited understanding of the Holy 
Scriptures?
   Ifwe put our foot 
  downagainstnew truth when it is introduced, we can hardly claim to 
  be Godly/Holy/Sanctified, despite your most carefully constructed facade 
  of being otherwise.We can, of course, always resort to being 
  sanctimonious, as did the Jews who prayed in public to be heard of men, 
  etc. :) 
  
  Do all believers err, at some points, in their 
  understanding and therefore, teaching of the Holy Scriptures? Does this 
  necessarily represent sin? When as a believer something of your teaching is 
  errant relative to ontological truth and, you discover this to be so then, 
  what steps ought you to take to rectify the matter vis a vis those who 
  received this teaching?
  
  I am not sure I understand what you are getting at, but I refer you 
  to 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants, verses 5-10--I hope this 
  might be something of an answer for you:
  
  5"For thus saith the Lord--I the Lord am merciful and 
  gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who 
  serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.
  6 "Great shall be their reward, and 
  eternal shall be their glory.
  7 "And to them will I reveal all 
  mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make 
  known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining 
  to my kingdom.
  8 "Yea, and even the wonders 
  of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the 
  things of many generations.
  9 "And their wisdom shall be 
  great, and their understanding reach to heaven, and before them the wisdom of 
  the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to 
  naught.
  10 "For by my spirit will I 
  enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my 
  will--yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet 
  entered into the heart of man."
  
  

Just 
  musing..
  
  

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

Blaine do you read the Bible?
It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why 
not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 

  
  


I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines 
like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He 
was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than 
Cain--until Able was"removed,"at 
least.  

In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  So Cain and Abel were children # 
  1 and #2. and when Cain 
  killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I 
  mean, where did those people come from? I personally 
  believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. 
  But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with 
  the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own 
  people
  
  jd


  
  
  Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! 
  Shopping 
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

[TruthTalk] Audio Course-'The World History of Christianity 1900-2005-Mark Noll

[Lance Muir]

The UNIT of Salvation:

Individual? Family? Family + 
Ancestors?

The LENS through which we SEE Scripture: What's the 
BIBLICAL NORM through which all the rest of the Bible is READ? (Normed 
Hermeneutic)

ESCHATOLOGICAL:Daniel, Mt 24, 
Revelation

Mt 1-GENEALOGY:

New groups around the globe adopt new 
norms

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  From: Judy Taylor 
  

  
So they 
were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the 
ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were 
created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with 

access to 
the tree of life?

More added words: you are setting up a 
strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and 
see the distinction.

No strawman here 
Bill.

When you add the word "dying" to our 
words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman.

If anyone set up a strawman it was JD; 
he is the one who said they were created 
"like us" which is mortal and the word 
"mortal" well I already gave the dictionary
definition. They were created "in 
God's image" which is both holy and eternal. 

God did not create a dying people 
-- John did not say that, and neither did I. 

JD said created "like us" in 
which case they would be a "dying people"

As long as AW were eating of the 
tree of life, there was no death in them 
whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying 
-- or at least I am -- is that God created 
a people with the potential to die. 


The above is a little different from 
what JD stated ... How about the potential to
fall as Lucifer did. Angels are 
spirits - they don't die. Humans I believe are 
also
created spiritual beings and tho our 
body is perishing our inner man is either
being renewed or beingentrenched 
in even more darkness daily.

If you will accept this distinction, I 
will be happy to continue our discussion. 
If not, then there is nothing to 
discuss.

Bill
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

Yeah! Innocence turned to lust and caring 
and love turned into pride, selfishness, and shame.

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:52:03 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like 
us -- which includes the fact that they were created 
"mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the 
garden. 

jd
  
  They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the 
  apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. 
  Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the 
  apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the 
  first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, 
  why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks 
  away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. 
  :)
  Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which 
  indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate 
  the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at 
  that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent 
  them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently 
  restored their immortality. 
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

[TruthTalk] DID GOD SAY? (anything of value through JRRTolkien CSLewis?) HE DOES!!

[Lance Muir]

God's meaning through God's Words is SUPPOSED TO BE 
WHAT TT IS ABOUT, IS IT NOT? There's a whole lot of rather cocky assumin' goin' 
on here!

Please allow the Spirit of Christ that indwells you 
to break through those errant understandings so as to draw us closer to John 17. 


I understand that David is busy (He may even have a 
life) but, I do wish he'd participate just a bit more when tangents spring 
up.

CSL provides for the believing community (at least 
that are not luddites) to engage the culture with the gospel. This sniping is 
both ill-founded and silly. 

Re: [TruthTalk] Strawmen

[Judy Taylor]

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that 
  they were created 
  "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the 
  garden. jd
  
  Above is the strawman that needs to be kicked 
  down 
  
  And look at this, even the Mormon boys know 
  better:
  Satanassured Eve she would not die by 
  eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time 
  immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the 
  tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time 
  immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from 
  eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored 
  their immortality. 
  
  So both God and Satan agree that the first two 
  ppl are immortal ...
  which is not "like us" - that is outside of 
  Christ.
  

Re: [TruthTalk] Mr. Cleo

[Terry Clifton]

Kevin Deegan wrote:

  
  temple stone!

I had kinda pictured God in my mind as having a
little different hair do. Are you certain this is Him?
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Mr. Cleo

[Judy Taylor]

I thought the same thing - this looks like what we used 
to call in Australia a golliwog. jt

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:53:46 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Kevin Deegan wrote: 
  

temple stone!I had kinda pictured God in my mind as having a little different 
  hair do. Are you certain this is Him?Terry
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[knpraise]

So, Adam and Eve were having children while ithe garden .A possiblility. 

jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:41:09 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE






I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least.  

In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people

jd

[TruthTalk] For DaveH

[Judy Taylor]

When a woman wears leather clothing, . A man's 
  heart beats quicker, his throat gets dry, he goes weak in the knees, 
  and he begins to think irrationally. Ever wonder why? Because she 
  smells like a new truck. 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[knpraise]

But why would we assume tht the "cahnge" was anything other than a conscieousness of good and evil in association with the violation of law? Why does this "change" include their mortality? I see no reason for this.

jjd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:52:03 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE




In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. 

jd

They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple. Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness. Sounds like they were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple. I can see it all now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time asbeing desirable. She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me? He blushes--for the first time--and looks away. But steals a glance now and then when she's not looking. :)
Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[knpraise]

Amen.-Original Message-From: Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE







- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE



On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

From: Judy Taylor 


So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - 
OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with access to the tree of life?

More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and see the distinction.

No strawman here Bill.

When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a people with the potential to die. If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing to discuss.

Bill

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Lance Muir]

Bill speaks of 'AW'?? Hm...Freudian slip? 
Bill's favourite FF place? A hidden agenda?
Good root beer? (as close as Bill gets to 'beer'?) 
We had all best ponder this encrypted message from our vaunted 
theologian!

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 09, 2005 09:13
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  
  
  
  Amen.-Original Message-From: Taylor 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: 
  Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  

  
  

  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Judy Taylor 

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
Subject-AE



On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  From: Judy 
  Taylor 
  

So they were created one of two ways. 
They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - 

OR they were created like us which is mortal 
and dying as we live with access to the tree 
of life?

More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to 
what has been said and see the distinction.

No strawman here 
Bill.

When you add the word "dying" to our 
words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying 
people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW 
were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them whatsoever. 
Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created a 
people with the potential to die. If you will accept this distinction, I 
will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, then there is nothing 
to discuss.

Bill

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[knpraise]

I love it. Judy interprets John !!! If this is an example of your "spirit discernment," you have a long long way to go. 

In the account of A  E, they are mortal beings just like you and I with two exceptions in terms of circumstance: they had the Tree of Life and continued access to that tree was the only stated reason for their dismissal from the garden, and , they had not yet violated the expressly stated will of God. The EFFECT of the fall presents the reader with consequences that are much more involved than we might have expected -- at least for me. 

"In the image of God" is not a reference to the essence of God's existence. Holy and eternal are but two considerations of God. He is omnipresent. He is all wise and has all knowledge. He is all powerful. He is a triune being. Give us a rule of some sort, a path of season, for accepting two of His qualities and not the others. 

The fact of the matter is this - I believe that I can come closer to a biblical consideration for saying the "image" is the need for community than you can for "holy and eternal" 

jd


-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:09:18 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE







On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700 "Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes:

From: Judy Taylor 



So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with 
access to the tree of life?

More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and 
see the distinction.

No strawman here Bill.

When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman.

If anyone set up a strawman it was JD; he is the one who said they were created 
"like us" which is mortal and the word "mortal" well I already gave the dictionary
definition. They were created "in God's image" which is both holy and eternal. 

God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. 

JD said created "like us" in which case they would be a "dying people"

As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them 
whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created 
a people with the potential to die. 

The above is a little different from what JD stated ... How about the potential to
fall as Lucifer did. Angels are spirits - they don't die. Humans I believe are also
created spiritual beings and tho our body is perishing our inner man is either
being renewed or beingentrenched in even more darkness daily.

If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. 
If not, then there is nothing to discuss.

Bill
 judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

Why? The apostle Paul is good enough for me - He 
used "great plainness of speech"
with no hidden agendas. Nothing was done in a 
corner.

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 09:21:34 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Bill speaks of 'AW'?? Hm...Freudian 
  slip? Bill's favourite FF place? A hidden agenda?
  Good root beer? (as close as Bill gets to 
  'beer'?) We had all best ponder this encrypted message 
  from our vaunted theologian!
  
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



Amen.-Original Message-From: Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: 
Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
Subject-AE







  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 5:20 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  
  
  
  On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
From: Judy 
Taylor 

  
  So they were created one of two ways. 
  They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience 
  - 
  OR they were created like us which is mortal 
  and dying as we live with access to the 
  tree of life?
  
  More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to 
  what has been said and see the distinction.
  
  No strawman here 
  Bill.
  
  When you add the word "dying" to our 
  words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a dying 
  people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as AW 
  were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them 
  whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that 
  God created a people with the potential to die. If you will accept 
  this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If not, 
  then there is nothing to discuss.
  
  Bill
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Strawmen

[knpraise]

So, you decided to ignore my comment about the Tree of Life?Adam and Eve were not given any restrictions concerningeating from this tree. What do you suppose would be the result of eating from such fruit? I say "continued life." 

jd -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:26:46 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Strawmen





On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd

Above is the strawman that needs to be kicked down 

And look at this, even the Mormon boys know better:
Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. 

So both God and Satan agree that the first two ppl are immortal ...
which is not "like us" - that is outside of Christ.

Re: [TruthTalk] DID GOD SAY? (anything of value through JRRTolkien CSLewis?) HE DOES!!

[knpraise]

-Original Message-From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:26:28 -0500Subject: [TruthTalk] DID GOD SAY? (anything of value through JRRTolkien  CSLewis?) HE DOES!!





God's meaning through God's Words is SUPPOSED TO BE WHAT TT IS ABOUT, IS IT NOT? There's a whole lot of rather cocky assumin' goin' on here!

Please allow the Spirit of Christ that indwells you to break through those errant understandings so as to draw us closer to John 17. 

I understand that David is busy (He may even have a life) but, I do wish he'd participate just a bit more when tangents spring up.

CSL provides for the believing community (at least that are not luddites) to engage the culture with the gospel. This sniping is both ill-founded and silly. 

Re: [TruthTalk] Strawmen

[Judy Taylor]

God's wisdom is a tree of life JD
AE rejected it in favor of the tree of 
death

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:38:42 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  So, you decided to ignore my comment about the Tree of 
  Life?Adam and Eve were not given any restrictions 
  concerningeating from this tree. What do you suppose would 
  be the result of eating from such fruit? I say "continued 
  life." jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  

  
  
  On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  


Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact 
that they were created 
"mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the 
garden. jd

Above is the strawman that needs to be 
kicked down 

And look at this, even the Mormon boys know 
better:
Satanassured Eve she would not die by 
eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time 
immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the 
tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time 
immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them 
from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently 
restored their immortality. 

So both God and Satan agree that the first 
two ppl are immortal ...
which is not "like us" - that is outside of 
Christ.

   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[knpraise]

Think "Tree of Life" for starters.-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 06:23:29 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE



What is the evidence?

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:20:21 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Agreed.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. 

jdFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people

jd
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings

I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT!
Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: 
"And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord."
Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden?

In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 


Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :)
Blainerb

In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 


Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. Butthey would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous Is that what you think the Lord really wanted? 

In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Thetrees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death.
 judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)



 judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Lance Muir]

JUDY:Did you see that this was an attempt at 
humour? Please say that you did. You do laugh do you not?

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: December 09, 2005 09:29
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  
  Why? The apostle Paul is good enough for me - 
  He used "great plainness of speech"
  with no hidden agendas. Nothing was done in a 
  corner.
  
  On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 09:21:34 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  
Bill speaks of 'AW'?? Hm...Freudian 
slip? Bill's favourite FF place? A hidden agenda?
Good root beer? (as close as Bill gets to 
'beer'?) We had all best ponder this encrypted message 
from our vaunted theologian!

  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  
  
  Amen.-Original Message-From: Taylor 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: 
  Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
  Subject-AE
  

  
  

  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Judy 
Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 
5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New 
Subject-AE



On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:01:44 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  From: Judy 
  Taylor 
  

So they were created one of two ways. 
They were either eternal with the ability to fall through 
disobedience - 
OR they were created like us which is 
mortal and dying as we live with access 
to the tree of life?

More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back 
to what has been said and see the distinction.

No strawman here 
Bill.

When you add the word "dying" to 
our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman. God did not create a 
dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. As long as 
AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them 
whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that 
God created a people with the potential to die. If you will accept 
this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion. If 
not, then there is nothing to discuss.

Bill
 
  judyt 
  He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
  Commandments 
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Judy Taylor]

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:33:15 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  
  I love it. Judy interprets John !!! If this is an 
  example of your "spirit discernment," you have a long long way to 
  go. 
  
  Correction! Judy has no interest in 
  interpreting John. Judy reads and understands scripture.
  
  In the account of A  E, they are mortal beings just like you 
  and I with two exceptions in terms of circumstance: they had the Tree of 
  Life and continued access to that tree was the only stated reason for their 
  dismissal from the garden, and , they had not yet 
  violated the expressly stated will of God. 
  
  Then why the warning that if they ate of the 
  wrong tree they would die if they were already mortal (like us) temporal ie passing away? God said they would die, 
  Satan said they wouldn't
  
  The EFFECT of the fall presents the reader with consequences that are 
  much more involved than we might have expected -- at least for 
  me. 
  
  Maybe you are making it a figment of your own 
  imagination JD. If they were like us they
  would have no place to fall to.
  
  "In the image of God" is not a reference to the essence of God's 
  existence. Holy and eternal are but two considerations of 
  God. He is omnipresent. He is all wise and has all 
  knowledge. He is all powerful. He is a triune 
  being.
  
  Image and likeness does not make 
  themCreator rather than Created; but they would have his nature and 
  character and would be spirit 
  beingswith a flesh body just as He is a Spirit. 
  
  Give us a rule of some sort, a path of season, for accepting two of 
  His qualities and not the others. The fact of the matter is 
  this - I believe that I can come closer to a biblical 
  consideration for saying the "image" is the need for community than you can 
  for "holy and eternal" jd
  
  Oh I know JD - here we 
  go again with the "procession and the perichoresis - and the trinity all 
  dancing with each other" Some things never change.
  
  
  From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com
  

  
  

  
  On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700 "Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes:
  
From: Judy Taylor 


  

  So they 
  were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the 
  ability to fall through disobedience - OR they 
  were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with 
  
  access 
  to the tree of life?
  
  More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what 
  has been said and 
  see the distinction.
  
  No strawman here Bill.
  
  When you add the word "dying" to our 
  words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman.
  
  If anyone set up a strawman it was JD; he is the one who said they were created 
  
  "like us" which is mortal and the 
  word "mortal" well I already gave the dictionary
  definition. They were created 
  "in God's image" which is both holy and eternal. 

  
  God did not create a dying 
  people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. 
  
  
  JD said created "like us" in which case they would 
  be a "dying people"
  
  As long as AW were eating of the 
  tree of life, there was no death in them 
  whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying 
  -- or at least I am -- is that God created 
  a people with the potential to die. 
  
  
  The above is a little different from 
  what JD stated ... How about the 
  potential to
  fall as Lucifer did. Angels are 
  spirits - they don't die. Humans I believe are 
  also
  created spiritual beings and tho our body is perishing our inner man 
  is either
  being renewed or 
  beingentrenched in even more darkness 
  daily.
  
  If you will accept this distinction, 
  I will be happy to continue our discussion. 
  If not, then there is nothing to 
  discuss.
  
  Bill
 
  judyt 
  He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
  Commandments 
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[knpraise]

I have to get to the shop. But , quickly, ( you are probably already on the road to work, as well) , it seems to me that man(kind) is first created and then, Adam (as it turns out) is placed into the garden (2:7,8). I would tie 1:26-28 to verse 7 and treat Adam and Eve as a second story. Eve was created in the garden. I think the story of Adam and Eve is the account of the first of the chosen people of God (the Jews). So, I guess I would have to say that only A  E had access to the Tree of Life. 

My conversation with Blaine is somewhat deceiving. I do believe that Adam and Eve could have been having children while in the garden - but I also believe that God madea good number of humans ... Adam and Eve being the first of the chosen. 

Goofy?



jd -Original Message-From: Taylor wmtaylor@plains.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:47:39 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE



Oh and, hey John, this brings me to a second thought. You said that perhaps God had created other peoples as well as AE. Were they eating also from the tree of life in the garden at the time of Adam's banishment? They had been created mortal as well, right? They would have needed the same sustenance: is thatcorrect? And if so, why must they have been banished with him? Had they also transgressed?

Bill

- Original Message - 
From: Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, Judy. Had they have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not havedied, their mortality being the potential to die in the absence of the sustenance supplied by the tree of life: "'And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him from the Garden . . ."

Bill

- Original 

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Charles Perry Locke]

My 2c worth:

  I have always though of Adam and Eve as created mortal, and that that 
perhaps the eventual plan (before the fall) was for them to partake of the 
Tree of Life and become immortal.


  What would have happened if they had partaken of the Tree of Life after 
sinning and while in the fallen state? Perhaps they would have eternally 
been in a fallen state...literally unredeemable.


  Most likely they were have been banished from the garden as an act of 
mercy to protect them from partaking of the tree of life in the fallen 
state. Then, through God's redemptve plan, they could still gain 
immortality.  Imagine if we all were immortal, and lived eternally in a 
fallen state.


  I do not buy for one moment that god EVER wanted AE to sin. He created 
them with free will ( a necessary trait to give love any real meaning). 
Eve was beguiled by Satan and chose to sin. Did He know they would sin? 
Probably. Did he want them to, or design it so they would? No. Did God have 
a redemptive plan ready, should they choose to sin? Definitely. Had satan 
chosen not to decieve Eve, or had she chosen not to sin, would things have 
been different? Definitely.


  The lie that Satan perpetrated in the garden of Eden to deceive Eve is 
still alive today in some cults...and ye shall be as gods.


Perry



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:11:18 -0500

But why would we assume tht the cahnge was anything other than a 
conscieousness of good and evil in association with the violation of law?  
Why does this change include their mortality?   I see no reason for this.


jjd

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:52:03 EST
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE


In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:34:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Also,  there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us  --  
which includes the fact that they were created mortal,  hence, the The 
Tree of Life , in the garden.


jd
They did not seem to be aware of their nakedness until they ate the apple.  
Then they made fig leaf aprons to cover their nakedness.  Sounds like they 
were changed in some mysterious way by eating the apple.  I can see it all 
now--Adam looks at Eve, and sees her for the first time as being desirable. 
 She feels uncomfortable, and asks, why are you staring at me?  He 
blushes--for the first time--and looks away.  But steals a glance now and 
then when she's not looking.  :)
Satan assured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates 
she was at that time immortal.  Also, God told her if she ate the good 
stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that 
time immortal.  They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them 
from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently 
restored their immortality.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Strawmen

[knpraise]

Huh ??? If you are saying that Adam and Eve made a choice betweenknowledge and life -- well, I would agree. But, if they were immortal, that was not a choice they had to make -- they didn't need the Tree of Life. Or, are you saying that the Tree of Life is allegory?

jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 09:52:41 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Strawmen




God's wisdom is a tree of life JD
AE rejected it in favor of the tree of death

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 09:38:42 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



So, you decided to ignore my comment about the Tree of Life?Adam and Eve were not given any restrictions concerningeating from this tree. What do you suppose would be the result of eating from such fruit? I say "continued life." jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]




On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden. jd

Above is the strawman that needs to be kicked down 

And look at this, even the Mormon boys know better:
Satanassured Eve she would not die by eating the fruit, which indicates she was at that time immortal. Also, God told her if she ate the good stuff on the tree, she would surely die--another evidence she was at that time immortal. They were then kicked out of the garden, to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life, which would have apparently restored their immortality. 

So both God and Satan agree that the first two ppl are immortal ...
which is not "like us" - that is outside of Christ.

 judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] CSL comparable to Elvis??

[Kevin Deegan]

  http://www.theage.com.au/news/film/nearer-my-narnia-to-thee/2005/12/08/1133829717953.html  Nearer my Narnia to thee  Disney is deliberately promoting this film to the religious - it has appointed Outreach, an evangelical publisher, to promote the Christian message behind the movie in British churches, for example. The British Christian radio station Premier is urging churches to hold services on the theme of The Gospel According to Narnia. Even the Methodists have written a special Narnia-themed service. And a parish in south-east England is giving away ££10,000 ($A23,150) worth of film tickets to single-parent families. (Are the children of single mothers in special need of the word?)  US born-agains are using the movie. The Mission America Coalition is "inviting church leaders around the country to consider the
 fantastic ministry opportunity presented by the release of this film". The president's brother, Jeb Bush, the Governor of Florida, is organising a scheme for every child in his state to read the book. Walden Media, co-producer of the movie, offers a "17-week Narnia Bible study for children". The owner of Walden Media is both a big Republican donor and a donor to the Florida governor's book promotion - a neat synergy of politics, religion and product placement. It has aroused protests from Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which complains that "a governmental endorsement of the book's religious message is in violation of the First Amendment to the US Constitution".  Most children will be utterly clueless about any message beyond the age-old mythic battle between good and evil. Most of the fairy story works as well as any Norse saga, pagan legend or modern fantasy, so only those familiar with Christian iconography will see Jesus in the lion. After
 all, 43 per cent of people in Britain in a recent poll couldn't say what Easter celebrated. But so far, so good. The story makes sense. The lion exchanging his life for Edmund's is the sort of thing Arthurian legends are made of. Parfait knights and heroes in prisoner-of-war camps do it all the time. But what's this? After a long, dark night of the soul and women's weeping, the lion is suddenly alive again. Why? How? my children used to ask. Well, it is hard to say why. It does not make any more sense in C.S. Lewis's tale than in the gospels. Ah, Aslan explains, it is the "deep magic", where pure sacrifice alone vanquishes death.Of all the elements of Christianity, the most repugnant is the notion of the Christ who took our sins upon himself and sacrificed his body in agony to save our souls. Did we ask him to? Poor child Edmund, to blame for
 everything, must bear the full weight of a guilt only Christians know how to inflict, with a twisted knife to the heart. Every one of those thorns, the nuns used to tell my mother, is hammered into Jesus' holy head every day that you don't eat your greens or say your prayers when you are told. So the resurrected Aslan gives Edmund a long, life-changing talking-to high up on the rocks out of our earshot. When the poor boy comes back down with the sacred lion's breath upon him, he is transformed unrecognisably into a Stepford brother, well and truly purged.
	
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Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Kevin Deegan]

those who are turned off by such rhetoric.They are already "TURNED OFF"  What will happen to them are you afraid we will "TURN THEM" into HELL NUMBER TWO?Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:45:44 -0800 Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:being over protective through fear is one thingDAVEH: That seems to be a tactic of some Christians. For instance, the whole commonly believed scenario about hell being a literal punitive torturous form of
 punishment is an example that I see driving some people away from Christianity. I'm sure there will be some SPers who will point to their successes by using such methodology, but that does not necessarily offset the numbers of those who are turned off by such rhetoric.They may be turned off at that moment but who knows whether or not a seed has been planted that God will  water at a later date? That was John the Baptists ministry ie "the axe will be layed to the root of the tree of those  who do not repent"This is what the wisdom of the world teaches.DAVEH: Have you ever read of some of the examples where groups of people were decimated by diseases brought into their environment by outsiders? Yes and usually these groups
 were already compromised by sin. The American indians were pagan god  worshippers and the Australian aborigines were animists leaving both wide open.God has given us an immune system which should be able to throw off anything that comes our wayDAVEH: I tend to agree with you on this to a point, Judy. Though I don't view it as an immune system, but rather as inoculation. We aren't born with a resistance to sin, but we achieve it as we become one with the Lord. I think it was Paul who explained the analogy of putting on the armor of God. We aren't born with that armor, but acquire it as we grow in Christ. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from.DAVEH: Then why do you think God kept AE
 from partaking of it after they transgressed?Because they would have lived forever in their fallen and demonized state and He will not haveany devils in heaven; but he did make for them a way of escape planned before the foundation of the world.The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic.DAVEH:: You've lost me on that one, Judy. Are you saying the tree of knowledge of good and evil is earthly, sensual, and demonic? If so, it sounds like you are implying that God planted something evil in the Garden of Eden in an effort to tempt AE. If that is what you are suggesting, do you have Biblical evidence to support your theory? I am saying He allowed it -to test their faith and
 they bit. It came in the form of the serpent who spoke to Eve   He was full of wisdom from the other tree. In the gospels you will remember the parable of the sower who sows  the good seed which is God's Word (Jesus explains) and the enemy who sows another word making tares  which will be separated from the wheat in the last day. Same idea. FWIW.I had the impression that Gen 1 suggests exactly the opposite12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good..That the trees God created were good. Reading Gen 2..We are not talking about "fruit" trees here DaveH; in the garden there are
 two trees that have to do with  different kinds of knowledge or wisdom.[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evildoes not give me the impression that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was in itself evil. If you disagree, I'd like to understand why you think such. Because Jesus says that nothing that goes into the mouth is of itself evil - it just goes in and comes out in the draught. It is what comes out of the heart that defiles the man - and these two trees had that kind of power.Judy Taylor wrote:   DaveH writes:   FWIW.While it may be noble to want to keep one's children pure and innocent, a loving parent who overly protects their children will end up with kids acutely susceptible to the ills of the world. Not necessarily; being over protective through fear is one thing. Teaching children spiritual discernment in the fear of God is another because then the parent has His power and watchful eye on their side.I see it similar to communicable illnesses. You could raise your kid in a bubble and he would live a germ/virus free life. But once he enters the real world, he would be extremely vulnerable to catching a slew of nasty bugs. Isn't it much better to allow your kid be exposed to such hazards so that he can become inoculated against the ravages in the strength of his youth
 than allow such 

[TruthTalk] FREE?? will?? Then vs Now

[Lance Muir]

My but I'd love to hear from folks on 
this!!

I believe that we NOW are born with a will that is 
FREE to do but one thing and, that would be, IMO, flee from God and behave 
consistently with our fallen nature.

Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Restoration - BAAL Worship

[Kevin Deegan]

Looks like the LDS have actually suceeded in ressurecting the old Canaanite BAAL Worship!  Notice Antons Satanic STAR on the temple below!Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  temple stone!  Du 17 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded  Du 18 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.There are seven stars in the sign or constellation of the Big Dipper on the Salt Lake Temple,explained by President Harold
 B. Lee "to represent the great truth that through the priesthood of God the lost may find their way." Harold B.Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places, p. 251   Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.2 Kings 23:5,11 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven. And he took away the horses that the kings of
 Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which [was] in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.  http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2000/mormastr2.html#fn12  Enoch, Abraham, and Moses all had revelations on astronomy, and Joseph Smith called the first newspaper of the Church The Evening and the Morning Star. Why this preoccupation with the heavens?  Just as the Savior was born and sacrificed on special Hebrew calendar days, so was the Prophet Joseph Smith. His birth on Monday, 23 December 1805 coincided with the Hebrew day marking the winter solstice, leading to the suggestion that it symbolized the return of the light of the gospel to a dark
 world.(Proctor, Scot Facer, Witness of the Light, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, p. 22) Moreover, Thursday, 27 June 1844, the day on which the Prophet went "like a lamb to the slaughter" (DC 135:4), was one of four Hebrew "days of atonement" ( the day of atonement on which joe was "martyed")The Law of Moses actually required priests to sacrifice two lambs every day: one in the morning and one in the afternoon (Num. 28:3-8). Because the Hebrew day begins about sunset, the morning sacrifice was near the meridian of the 24-hour Hebrew day, and the afternoon sacrifice was near the end of the day. The morning sacrifice appears to have represented Jesus Christ, who would come in the meridian of time, and the afternoon lamb might well have symbolized the Prophet Joseph Smith, who came in the latter days and did "more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it" (DC 135:3).  Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Blaine, the resident TT astrologer says, " and the sunstone with the round-faced image of god". Is god's face round like the sun? Does the sun have a face like god's? Does god have a literal face? Are god and the sun the same that anyone should combine them in an image? Can you say "Sun worship"? "Graven Images"?"When the suun is in the seventh house...and Ju-pi-ter aligns with Mars.Pce will guide the pla-a-nuts, and lve will guide the stars, this is the dawning of the age of aquarius, the age of
 aguarius...aquris...aquriiiuuus".Gee, that was fun. I haven't sung that since Pluto was in the doghouse.Blaine, can you explain what the age of aquarius is, if we are now in the age of aquarius, and how that squares with your mormon beliefs, or how it does not?Do you believe Nostradamus to be an authentic prognosticator of the future? What evidence do you have of the truth of his prophecies?Thanks,PerryFrom: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaine Autumn equinox Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:44:19 ESTBlainerb: Sounds more like some of Joseph Smith's tom-foolery! He wasfamous for saying ridiculous things for a laugh! Once while the Nauvoo templewas being built, and the sunstone with the round-faced image of God carved onit was
 about to be put into place, someone asked if that was what God lookedlike. He replied that it was, except his nose was just a smidgeon wider!Both he and the man who asked the question got a good laugh! Where is yoursense of humor, Kevin?In a message dated 12/7/2005 9:14:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Joe was an Occultist who sacrificed animalsKevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:The angel appeared on September 22 every year four years in a row. None ofthe other dates corresponded to Trumpets.It had more to do with being a 

Re: [TruthTalk] DID GOD SAY? (anything of value through JRRTolkien CSLewis?) HE DOES!!

[Kevin Deegan]

CSL provides for the believing community (at least that are not luddites) to engage the culture with the gospel.Funny how some need a special invite and someone else to do the talking for them. I some perverted way they think they are going out in the deep taking a chance being Evangels by GOing to the THEATRE!GO ye into ALL the World and preach the Gospel (God's Holy Word)  Todays modern version GO see the gospel!  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:-Original Message-From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:26:28
 -0500Subject: [TruthTalk] DID GOD SAY? (anything of value through JRRTolkien  CSLewis?) HE DOES!!God's meaning through God's Words is SUPPOSED TO BE WHAT TT IS ABOUT, IS IT NOT? There's a whole lot of rather cocky assumin' goin' on here!Please allow the Spirit of Christ that indwells you to break through those errant understandings so as to draw us closer to John 17. I understand that David is busy (He may even have a life) but, I do wish he'd participate just a bit more when tangents spring up.CSL provides for the believing community (at least that are not luddites) to engage the culture with the gospel. This sniping is both ill-founded and silly.   
	
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Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Kevin Deegan]

Here is the REAL intent of the LDS question on questionable surmisings about which the Bible is silent! They sit back  ENJOY the FIREWORKS![EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I love it. Judy interprets John !!! If this is an example of your "spirit discernment," you have a long long way to go. In the account of A  E, they are mortal beings just like you and I with two exceptions in terms of circumstance: they had the Tree of Life and continued access to that tree was the only stated reason for their dismissal from the garden, and , they had not yet violated the expressly stated will of God. The EFFECT of the fall presents the reader
 with consequences that are much more involved than we might have expected -- at least for me. "In the image of God" is not a reference to the essence of God's existence. Holy and eternal are but two considerations of God. He is omnipresent. He is all wise and has all knowledge. He is all powerful. He is a triune being. Give us a rule of some sort, a path of season, for accepting two of His qualities and not the others. The fact of the matter is this - I believe that I can come closer to a biblical consideration for saying the "image" is the need for community than you can for "holy and eternal" jd  -Original
 Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:09:18 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEOn Fri, 9 Dec 2005 05:57:00 -0700 "Taylor" wmtaylor@plains.net writes:From: Judy Taylor So they were created one of two ways. They were either eternal with the ability to fall through disobedience - OR they were created like us which is mortal and dying as we live with   access to the tree of life?More added words: you are setting up a strawman, Judy. Go back to what has been said and   see the distinction.No strawman here Bill.When you add the word "dying" to our words, Judy, you are setting up a strawman.If anyone set up a strawman it was JD; he is the one who said they were created   "like us" which is mortal and the word "mortal" well I already gave the dictionary  definition. They were created "in God's image" which is both holy and eternal. God did not create a dying people -- John did not say that, and neither did I. JD said created "like us" in which case they would be a "dying
 people"As long as AW were eating of the tree of life, there was no death in them   whatsoever. Hence, what we are saying -- or at least I am -- is that God created   a people with the potential to die. The above is a little different from what JD stated ... How about the potential to  fall as Lucifer did. Angels are spirits - they don't die. Humans I believe are also  created spiritual beings and tho our body is perishing our inner man is
 either  being renewed or beingentrenched in even more darkness daily.If you will accept this distinction, I will be happy to continue our discussion.   If not, then there is nothing to discuss.Bill   judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com 

Re: [TruthTalk] Mr. Cleo

[Kevin Deegan]

Joe Smith said HIS NOSE was a little wider!Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I thought the same thing - this looks like what we used to call in Australia a golliwog. jtOn Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:53:46 -0600 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Kevin Deegan wrote:   temple stone!I had kinda pictured God in my mind as having a little different hair do. Are you certain this is Him?Terry   judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
 Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
	
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Re: [TruthTalk] Audio Course-'The World History of Christianity 1900-2005-Mark Noll

[Kevin Deegan]

  New groups around the globe adopt new normsNew GospelLance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  The UNIT of Salvation:Individual? Family? Family + Ancestors?The LENS through which we SEE Scripture: What's the BIBLICAL NORM through which all the rest of the Bible is READ? (Normed Hermeneutic)ESCHATOLOGICAL:Daniel, Mt 24, RevelationMt 1-GENEALOGY:New groups around the globe adopt new norms
	
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Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[Kevin Deegan]

Must be it ALL revolves around SEX Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Blaine do you read the Bible?  It was not a coveted sister Cain was jealous of - why not go back and refresh .[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Eve had a passal of children, they just didn't make headlines like Cain. Cain married his sister, according to
 one account. He was jealous of Able because the coveted sister liked Able better than Cain--until Able was"removed,"at least.  In a message dated 12/8/2005 10:28:04 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own peoplejd  Yahoo! ShoppingFind Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shoppingjudyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His
 Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)
	
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[TruthTalk] Angel in disguise

[ShieldsFamily]

 This was written by a Hospice of Metro Denver physician .

 I just had one of the most amazing experiences of my life, and wanted to

 share
 it with my family and dearest friends:
 I was driving home from a meeting this evening about 5, stuck in traffic
 on
 Colorado Blvd., and the car started to choke and splutter and die - I
 barely
 managed to coast, cursing, into a gas station, glad only that I would
 not be
 blocking traffic and would have a somewhat warm spot to wait for the tow

 truck.
 It wouldn't even turn over.  Before I could make the call, I saw a woman

 walking
 out of the quickie mart building, and it looked like she slipped on
 some
 ice
 and fell into a Gas pump, so I got out to see if she was okay.

 When I got there, it looked more like she had been overcome by sobs than

 that
 she had fallen; she was a young woman who looked really haggard with
 dark
 circles under her eyes. She dropped something as I helped her up, and I
 picked
 it up to give it to her. It was a nickel.

 At that moment, everything came into focus for me: the crying woman, the

 ancient
 Suburban crammed full of stuff with 3 kids in the back (1 in a car
 seat),
 and
 the gas pump reading  $4.95.

 I asked her if she was okay and if she needed help, and she just kept
 saying
 I
 don't want my kids to see me crying, so we stood on the other side of
 the
 pump
 from her car.  She said she was driving to California and that things
 were
 very
 hard for her right now.  So I asked, And you were praying? That made
 her
 back
 away from me a little, but I assured her I was not a crazy person and
 said,
 He
 heard you, and He sent me.

 I took out my card and swiped it through the card reader on the pump so
 she
 could fill up her car completely, and while it  was fueling, walked to
 the
 next
 door McDonald's and bought 2 big bags of food, some gift certificates
 for
 more,
 and a big cup of coffee. She gave the food to the kids in the car, who
 attacked
 it like wolves, and we stood by the pump eating fries and talking a
 little.

 She told me her name, and that she lived in Kansas City.  Her boyfriend
 left
 2
 months ago and she had not been able to make ends meet.  She knew she
 wouldn't
 have money to pay
 rent Jan 1, and finally in desperation had finally called her parents,
 with
 whom
 she had not spoken in about 5 years.  They lived in California and said
 she
 could come live with them and try to get on her feet there.


 So she packed up everything she owned in the car  She told the kids they

 were
 going to California for Christmas, but not that they were going to live
 there.

 I gave her my gloves, a little hug and said a quick prayer with her for
 safety
 on the road.  As I was walking over to my car, she said, So, are you
 like
 an
 angel or something?

 This definitely made me cry.  I said, Sweetie, at this time of year
 angels
 are
 really busy, so sometimes God uses regular people.

 It was so incredible to be a part of someone else's miracle.  And of
 course,
 you
 guessed it, when I got in my car it started right away and got me home
 with
 no
 problem.  I'll put it in the shop tomorrow to check, but I suspect the
 mechanic
 won't find anything wrong.

 Sometimes the angels fly close enough to you that you can hear the
 flutter
 of
 their wings...
 

 My instructions were to pick four people that I wanted God to bless,
 especially
 for the months in 2005, and I picked you.




--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] FREE?? will?? Then vs Now

[ShieldsFamily]

Thats only half the story, Lance.
The other half is that we are free to worship and serve the LordAFTER we
are filled with the Holy Spirit, that is. The Holy Spirit gives us the same
freedom that AE had, to obey OR disobey. izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005
9:36 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: [TruthTalk] FREE?? will??
Then vs Now







My but I'd love to hear from folks on this!!











I believe that we NOW are born with a will that is FREE to
do but one thing and, that would be, IMO, flee from God and behave
consistently with our fallen nature.

RE: [TruthTalk] LDS Restoration - BAAL Worship

[ShieldsFamily]

It’s well known that the 5 pointed pentagram
is a satanic star.  DaVinci used it in his famous drawing of a man; it
represents for form of man; one point for his head, arms and legs.  It is the
antithesis to the 6 pointed Star of David.  iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005
9:40 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS
Restoration - BAAL Worship







Looks like the LDS have actually suceeded in
ressurecting the old Canaanite BAAL Worship!

















Notice Antons
Satanic STAR on the temple below!













Kevin Deegan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:













temple stone!





Du 17 And hath gone and served other
gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the
host of heaven, which I have not commanded













Du 18 There shall not be found among you
any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that
useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.













There are seven stars
in the sign or constellation of the Big Dipper on the Salt Lake Temple,explained by President
Harold B. Lee to represent the great truth that through the priesthood of God the lost may find their way. Harold
B.Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places,
p. 251















Amos 5:26 But ye have borne the
tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god,
which ye made to yourselves.











2 Kings 23:5,11 And he put down the idolatrous priests,
whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the
cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned
incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets,
and to all the host of heaven. And he took away the horses that the
kings of Judah
had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by
the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which [was] in the suburbs, and
burned the chariots of the sun with fire.







http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2000/mormastr2.html#fn12





Enoch, Abraham, and Moses all had
revelations on astronomy, and Joseph Smith called the first newspaper of the
Church The
Evening and the Morning Star. Why this
preoccupation with the heavens?





Just as the Savior was born and sacrificed on special Hebrew calendar
days, so was the Prophet Joseph Smith. His
birth on Monday, 23 December 1805 coincided with the Hebrew day marking the winter solstice,
leading to the suggestion that it symbolized the return of the light of the
gospel to a dark world.(Proctor, Scot Facer, Witness of the Light,
Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, p. 22)
Moreover, Thursday, 27 June 1844, the day on which the Prophet went like
a lamb to the slaughter (DC 135:4), was one of four Hebrew
days of atonement ( the day of atonement on which joe was
martyed)The Law of Moses actually required priests to sacrifice
two lambs every day: one in the morning and one in the afternoon (Num. 28:3-8).
Because the Hebrew day begins about sunset, the morning sacrifice was near the
meridian of the 24-hour Hebrew day, and the afternoon sacrifice was near the
end of the day. The morning sacrifice
appears to have represented Jesus Christ, who would come in the meridian of
time, and the afternoon lamb
might well have symbolized the Prophet Joseph Smith, who came
in the latter days and did more,
save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man
that ever lived in it (DC 135:3).







Charles Perry Locke
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:






Blaine, the resident TT astrologer says,  and the sunstone with the 
round-faced image of god. Is god's face round like the sun? Does the sun 
have a face like god's? Does god have a literal face? Are god and the sun 
the same that anyone should combine them in an image? Can you say Sun 
worship? Graven Images?

When the suun is in the seventh house...and Ju-pi-ter aligns with

Mars.Pce will guide the pla-a-nuts, and lve will guide the 
stars, this is the dawning of the age of aquarius, the age of 
aguarius...aquris...aquriiiuuus.

Gee, that was fun. I haven't sung that since Pluto was in the doghouse.

Blaine, can you
explain what the age of aquarius is, if we are now in the 
age of aquarius, and how that squares with your mormon beliefs, or how it 
does not?

Do you believe Nostradamus to be an authentic prognosticator of the future? 
What evidence do you have of the truth of his prophecies?

Thanks,
Perry

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Blaine Autumn equinox Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 
21:44:19 EST



Blainerb: Sounds more like some of Joseph Smith's tom-foolery! He was
famous for saying ridiculous things for a laugh! Once while the Nauvoo 
temple
was being built, and the sunstone with the round-faced image of God 

RE: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[ShieldsFamily]

Interesting thought, jd. Not likely,
but interesting. Maybe the other people were Neanderthals? iz











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005
9:10 AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New
Subject-AE











I have to get to the shop. But ,
quickly, ( you are probably already on the road to work, as well) ,
it seems to me that man(kind) is first created and then, Adam (as it
turns out) is placed into the garden (2:7,8). I would tie
1:26-28 to verse 7 and treat Adam and Eve as a second story.
Eve was created in the
garden. I think the story of Adam and Eve is the account of the
first of the chosen people of God (the Jews). So, I
guess I would have to say that only A  E had access to the Tree of
Life. 











My conversation with Blaine
is somewhat deceiving. I do believe that Adam and Eve could have been
having children while in the garden - but I also believe that
God madea good number of humans ... Adam and Eve being
the first of the chosen. 











Goofy?























jd 




-Original Message-
From: Taylor wmtaylor@plains.net
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:47:39 -0700
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE





Oh and, hey John, this brings me to a second thought. You
said that perhaps God had created other peoples as well as AE. Were they
eating also from the tree of life in the garden at the time of Adam's banishment? They had been
created mortal as well, right? They would have needed the same sustenance: is
thatcorrect? And if so, why must they have been banished with him? Had
they also transgressed?











Bill







- Original Message - 





From: Taylor 





To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 





Sent: Friday, December
09, 2005 4:33 AM





Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
New Subject-AE











Me thinks you are putting words in his mouth, Judy. Had they
have continued to eat of the tree of life, they would not havedied, their
mortality being the potential to die in the absence of the sustenance supplied
by the tree of life: 'And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of
the tree of life, and eat, and live forever' -- so the LORD God banished him
from the Garden . . .











Bill







- Original 

Re: [TruthTalk] Angel in disguise

[Lance Muir]

THIS is quite wonderful, Iz!


- Original Message - 
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: December 09, 2005 11:04
Subject: [TruthTalk] Angel in disguise



This was written by a Hospice of Metro Denver physician .

I just had one of the most amazing experiences of my life, and wanted to

share
it with my family and dearest friends:
I was driving home from a meeting this evening about 5, stuck in traffic
on
Colorado Blvd., and the car started to choke and splutter and die - I
barely
managed to coast, cursing, into a gas station, glad only that I would
not be
blocking traffic and would have a somewhat warm spot to wait for the tow

truck.
It wouldn't even turn over.  Before I could make the call, I saw a woman

walking
out of the quickie mart building, and it looked like she slipped on
some
ice
and fell into a Gas pump, so I got out to see if she was okay.

When I got there, it looked more like she had been overcome by sobs than

that
she had fallen; she was a young woman who looked really haggard with
dark
circles under her eyes. She dropped something as I helped her up, and I
picked
it up to give it to her. It was a nickel.

At that moment, everything came into focus for me: the crying woman, the

ancient
Suburban crammed full of stuff with 3 kids in the back (1 in a car
seat),
and
the gas pump reading  $4.95.

I asked her if she was okay and if she needed help, and she just kept
saying
I
don't want my kids to see me crying, so we stood on the other side of
the
pump
from her car.  She said she was driving to California and that things
were
very
hard for her right now.  So I asked, And you were praying? That made
her
back
away from me a little, but I assured her I was not a crazy person and
said,
He
heard you, and He sent me.

I took out my card and swiped it through the card reader on the pump so
she
could fill up her car completely, and while it  was fueling, walked to
the
next
door McDonald's and bought 2 big bags of food, some gift certificates
for
more,
and a big cup of coffee. She gave the food to the kids in the car, who
attacked
it like wolves, and we stood by the pump eating fries and talking a
little.

She told me her name, and that she lived in Kansas City.  Her boyfriend
left
2
months ago and she had not been able to make ends meet.  She knew she
wouldn't
have money to pay
rent Jan 1, and finally in desperation had finally called her parents,
with
whom
she had not spoken in about 5 years.  They lived in California and said
she
could come live with them and try to get on her feet there.


So she packed up everything she owned in the car  She told the kids they

were
going to California for Christmas, but not that they were going to live
there.

I gave her my gloves, a little hug and said a quick prayer with her for
safety
on the road.  As I was walking over to my car, she said, So, are you
like
an
angel or something?

This definitely made me cry.  I said, Sweetie, at this time of year
angels
are
really busy, so sometimes God uses regular people.

It was so incredible to be a part of someone else's miracle.  And of
course,
you
guessed it, when I got in my car it started right away and got me home
with
no
problem.  I'll put it in the shop tomorrow to check, but I suspect the
mechanic
won't find anything wrong.

Sometimes the angels fly close enough to you that you can hear the
flutter
of
their wings...


My instructions were to pick four people that I wanted God to bless,
especially
for the months in 2005, and I picked you.





--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org


If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.





--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[knpraise]

No -- "nave"l in their day referred only to an orange.

jd-Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:54:06 -0800Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE


Did they have navels like we have?From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEDate: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:33:40 -0500Also, there is evidence that Adam and Eve were created just like us -- which includes the fact that they were created "mortal," hence, the The Tree of Life , in the garden.jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 00:27:22 -0500Subject: R
e: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AESo Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion. If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own peoplejd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AEIn a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed 
into mortal beingsI hate to tell you this B but the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT!Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows:"And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord."Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Blainerb: Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden?In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I wasn't there Blain
e. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall??  What sacrilege is this?? :)BlainerbIn a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. 
Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self would even be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. But they would be eternally pure and goody-good righteous.. Is that what you think the Lord really wanted?In a message dated 12/8/2005 3:41:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:The trees in the garden DaveH are the two kinds of wisdom. The tree of life is "pure, peaceable, and full of good fruit" and this is the tree God wanted His creation to eat from. The other tree - the one the serpent was promoting - is earthly, sensual, and demonic. So take your pick. One leads to life and the other to death. judytHe that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandment
s is a liar (1 John 2:4)--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE

[knpraise]

Questions (and admittedly, I am more of a novice on this point of doctrine than most): 

1. At what point in Luke's genealogy does the list cease to be Jewish? 
2. If redemption of the world is through the Chosen People of God and Christ, for a number of reasons, was the embodiment of the Chosen - it seems to my way of thinking that this reasoning would support 
the idea that the People of God (Jews) were never anything other than the Chosen and that would include Adam and Eve.
3. so, I guess I would be saying that Christ's lineage includes all of the Chosen through Adam to God - and that Christ is tied to the rest of the creation (all of mankind) as the Creator.He is the common tie, not the blood line.It is in Him that Jew and Gentile, male and female vanish. 
4. Biblical considerations include this thought: I believe that the "mystery" of the gospel is identified as the inclusion of all of mankind - that this was hidden from the Chosen until revealed in Christ. It seems to me that Mark 4:11 ff has Christ speaking ofthe salvation of all( in several parables)  - not just the salvation of the Jew AND the blindness of the Jew to this notion with Romans 11:25 making this commentary specific and, even, irresistible reaffirmed in Ro 16:25-26 and, again in Eph 3:4-6. 

Such a belief finds you and I accepting the same premise - Christ dying for the world , as a representative of mankind ( as the Creator - jd) and , at the same time, fulfilling this purpose as the Israel of God [hence his blood line through Adam to God (as God) ]

Your friend,
John

If I am wrong on this, I really need someone (esp Bill) to hang in there with me, let me make my points, and deal with my argumentation empathetically. I can handle being disagreed by friends. So -- sock it to me !!









-Original Message-From: Taylor wmtaylor@plains.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 04:19:48 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE



I think probably, John, that all humanity had to have come through Adam and Eve. This does not mean that Cain and then Abel had tohave beentheir first children (I guess), but in order for Christ to be the go'el or Kinsmen Redeemer of mankind,there has to have been a common ancestry, i.e., a common bloodline. That is the significance of Luke taking Jesus' genealogy all the way back to Adam: Christ therefore as the Second Man was qualified to represent everyone represented by the first man.

Bill

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE



So Cain and Abel were children # 1 and #2. and when Cain killed Able -- who was he afraid of -- I mean, where did those people come from? I personally believe that Adam and Eve were not the only people created. But that is not a popular opinion.If we go with the standard opin -- Cain was afraid of his own people

jd
-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 00:20:07 ESTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] New Subject-AE



In a message dated 12/8/2005 8:27:46 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings

I hate to tell you this Bbut the children generally come NINE Months AFTER the FACT!
Blainerb: Hmm, let's see, chapter three of Genesis ends with the couple being driven out of the paradisiacal garden, then chapter 4 begins as follows: 
"And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord."
Sounds like the fun began AFTER leaving the garden But no timetable is given.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Blainerb:Ha! I agree, it was a good commandment! But why did they not have children until they were 1) changed into mortal beings, and 2) forced out of the garden?

In a message dated 12/8/2005 7:46:18 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Iwasn't there Blaine. If you don't like it, complain to God. He ordered it, not me. I do, however, think it was a great idea. One of the easiest commands to keep. ;-)[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 


Are you saying Adam and Eve were capable of having sex prior to the Fall?? What sacrilege is this?? :)
Blainerb

In a message dated 12/8/2005 6:48:37 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think you might have missed something, Blaine. There is no reason to think that Judy would not have been here if there had been no fall. The command to "Be fruitful and multiply" came prior to the fall. See Genesis 1:28.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 


Blainerb: You seem to be forgetting how wonderful you as a daughter of God are, Judy. Without Adam and Eve's partaking of the forbidden fruit, none of us including your wonderful self wouldeven be here--Adam and Eve would just be lounging around in their perfect little paradise, never knowing good from evil and not even caring. 

Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit

[knpraise]

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:15:16 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven?





You speak as if the Holy Sprit indwelling and the "..law written on their hearts" are two different things. What exactly do you mean when you, Judy Taylor, speak of the law written on your heart? Memorization or what? What ever it means, we do know that it cannot be the same experienceas those under theMosaical Law. Is it the Holy Spirit 's influence - but you make a difference between the two. If this "law" has to do with various and multiple commandments, how are they written on our hearts in a way different from the Old Law? I honestly have no idea how you might answer this question. I have no answer and that is why I reject (up to this point in time) the notion that the "law written on our hearts" is talking about law as opposed to the rule of the Spirit. 

jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 20:46:30 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven?



In OT days they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them, nor did they have
God's Law written on their hearts. They lived in a theocracy and Moses had to 
gather the ppl, men, women, and children and read God's Law to them every
seven years. jt


On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:21:12 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



 
How is this different from OT days  
Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ???

jd

-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:11:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven?






How is this different from OT days  
Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ???

jd



-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 05:09:54 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven?



Why do we need scripture? 
Yes the born again/spirit filled believer is given the measure of faith - 
Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts 
But let's look at our example, the Head of the Church, the one we are to follow 
During His earthly ministry Jesus walked in all this too; in fact He walked in the fulness of the Spirit 
When confronted by the adversary - What was His defense? It is written, It is written, It is written.
No wonder the professing church is so weak. You would rather do it any way but learn from Him.

If anyone speaks not according to THIS WORD there is no light of day for him (Isa 8:20)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 





You haven't read the book either !!! This is what is so great about you and Judy. First -- you twodisagree on a number of points --but, like you, I willignore that for timebeing.In addition to the Inspired Version doctrine, and theInerrant Understanding didache, you two also believe that you can condemn a book without having read it , not to mention that you know of the personal judgments of God.With those qualifications, why do we even need the Bible? We certainly don't need preachers, pastors and teacher -- I mean the Holy Spirit will take care of all that - right? But ignore these questions, as well. Your peace of mind just migh
 t be at stake.  

jd -
 judyt He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His Commandments is a liar (1 John 2:4)

Re: [TruthTalk] Law and Spirit

[Judy Taylor]

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:44:07 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  

  
  
  
  You speak as if the Holy Sprit indwelling and the "..law written on their 
  hearts" are two different things. 
  What exactly do you mean when you, Judy Taylor, speak of the law 
  written on your heart? Memorization or what?
  
  No JD, it's too much for the old unregenerated 
  mind - the law is spiritual - When we are in Christ and indwelt by 
  the Spirit of Christ we like the ppl in 
  Romans 1:14,15 do by nature the thingsrequired by God's 
Law.
  
  What ever it means, we do know that it cannot be the same 
  experienceas those under theMosaical Law. Is it the Holy Spirit 's 
  influence - but you make a difference between the 
  two. If this "law" has to do with various and multiple 
  commandments, how are they written on our hearts in a way different from 
  the Old Law? I honestly have no idea how you might answer this 
  question. I have no answer and that is why I 
  reject (up to this point in time) the notion that the "law written on our 
  hearts" is talking about law as opposed to the rule of the 
  Spirit. jd
  
  Careful JD, if you 
  reject everything in scripture that you don't comprehend mentally then pretty 
  soon you will have to throw out the whole Book. 
  jtFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com
  

  
  In OT days they 
  did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling 
  them, nor did they have
  God's Law written on their hearts. They lived 
  in a theocracy and Moses had to 
  gather the ppl, 
  men, women, and children and read God's Law to them 
  every
  seven years. jt
  
  
  On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:21:12 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  


 
How is this different from OT 
days  
Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ???

jd

-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 08 Dec 
2005 11:11:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to 
Heaven?






How is this different from OT 
days  
Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts ???

jd



-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 05:09:54 
-0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Is Judas going to Heaven?



Why do we need scripture? 
Yes the born again/spirit filled believer is given 
the measure of faith - 
Yes we now have God's Law written on our hearts 
But let's look at our example, the Head of the 
Church, the one we are to follow 
During His earthly ministry Jesus walked in all 
this too; in fact He walked in the fulness of the Spirit 
When confronted by the adversary - What was His 
defense? It is written, It is written, It is written.
No wonder the professing church is so weak. 
You would rather do it any way but learn from Him.

If anyone speaks not according to 
THIS WORD there is no light of day for him (Isa 8:20)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  


You haven't read the book either !!! This is what is so 
great about you and Judy. First -- 
you twodisagree on a number of 
points --but, like you, I willignore that for 
timebeing.In addition to the Inspired Version 
doctrine, and theInerrant Understanding didache, you two also believe that 
you can condemn a book without having read it , not to mention that you 
know of the personal judgments of God.With those 
qualifications, why do we even need the 
Bible? We certainly don't need preachers, pastors and 
teacher -- I mean the Holy Spirit will take care of all that 
- right? But ignore these questions, as well. Your peace of mind just 
migh t be at stake.  

jd 
  -
 
  judyt 
  He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
  Commandments 
  is a liar (1 John 2:4)
   
judyt 
He that says "I know Him" and doesn't keep His 
Commandments 
is a liar (1 John 2:4)