Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Good Morning, On Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:36:29 -0400 Mark Fink mpf...@gmail.com wrote: [...removed totally annoying article...] As I'm not a MONO Fanboy myself...and sometimes boycott novell does write good articles...but please... Mono gives us a good way into the MS front...this could also be a point of view. And regarding Canonical...I wonder if Mark or Jane hired a lot of MONO people...I do think they have more python devs on their payrole then other companies... anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in the first place. We can argue about MS doesn't give us any rights on using it patent wise (only to Novell) but this has really nothing to do with MONO...we have so many sources in our distros, which do have patent issues...why don't you scream about that? Oh, sorry, you want to watch videos, or listen to your MP3s...damn I forgot. So please, power up your brain first... Thx, \sh -- | Stephan '\sh' Hermann| OSS Dev / SysAdmin | | JID: s...@linux-server.org | http://www.sourcecode.de/ | | GPG ID: 0xC098EFA8 | http://leonov.tv/ | | FP: 3D8B 5138 0852 DA7A B83F DCCB C189 E733 C098 EFA8 | -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
as benfrank said yesterday on boycottnovell: The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who want them. Easy as falling over. Not wanting to even discuss such a simple solution makes it credible that Ubuntu is being corrupted by Mono fans. IMono is controversial, and who needs the bloated Mono runtime just to run a few marginal apps? The importance of Mono to Ubuntu is greatly overblown by a small but very determined minority. MONO /is/ controversial, so why are you guys even shipping it? it's only because MONO people have poisoned your minds and infiltrated ubuntu to get power to enforce their will. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 10:58 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 07 June 2009 7:48:45 pm Mark Fink wrote: this is what the MONO developers want you to believe, but no one really wants MONO. users still using MONO only do so because they've been tricked by miquel co who worship m$ and will do anything to help them destroy linux. Hi :) Mono-based application user here. Guess why I use Mono-based apps? It's not the reason you gave. It's because there happen to exist some very good Mono-based applications. In the case of Tomboy v. Gnote...well, my experience dealing with the developers of the two applications along with the existence of a LaTeX plugin for the Mono one keeps me using Tomboy. F-Spot? Well, the only thing close is iPhoto, and last I tried iPhoto, F-Spot was more featureful. Now, I'm all for the effort to write better applications in other languages-- really, better applications in any language. Diversity is good! Competition is good! Unfortunately, I don't really see anyone stepping up to the plate with a photo manager that can compete with F-Spot. And Gnote doesn't really compete with Tomboy--emulation (that misses out on many of the features) isn't exactly innovation. BasKet and Zim though, I've heard they're very good. BasKet is for KDE though, and Zim, while very featureful, is also harder to navigate and asks some rather daunting questions in its Preferences (for example, full path to preferred text editor)--a fine tool for hackers, but not something I'd tell my brother to use for taking notes in class. Simply: what works well? At the moment, there are a handful of Mono applications which are the Best of Breed in their respective categories. If you've got some applications up your sleeve that can seriously compete with-- and beat!--any of the applications in the default Ubuntu install on technical grounds such as number and quality of useful features and the software's usability, I'd like to see them. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: shameful censoring of mono opposition
you sound like a typical M$ appologist. do you sleep well at night? hope they are paying you well. Clearly Mark doesn't understand the meaning of the phrase personal attack... Physician, heal thyself. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:11 AM, Remcoremc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday 08 June 2009 7:49:32 am Mark Fink wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Stephan Hermanns...@sourcecode.de wrote: anyways...MONO is a technology and this technology belongs into Ubuntu or any other linux distribution. It helps people get rid of Windows in the first place. no it doesn't, it helps spred the infectious disease MONO. it also helps adict users to it. Without Mono, there is no Moonlight. Without Moonlight, you get users whinging that they can't watch the Democratic National Convention* on Linux therefore Linux is stupid and Windows is good. Moonlight works independently of Mono as far as I know. Oh well, I don't have it on my system. As soon as the major video sites move to video (and they are preparing!), Flash will be gone too. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Luke L. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 9:39:31 am Mark Fink wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Instead of whinging, why don't you write BETTER replacements for those applications in C, if it bothers you so much? Whinging is simply not constructive. people already have http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Mono_Applications Please. GThumb as a serious competitor to G-Spot? You've got to be joking. Gwenview DigiKam are both KDE apps, so they are not valid answers for a GNOME distro. Besides that, Gwenview isn't a photo album manager--it's the equivalent of Eye of GNOME, just a viewer. And I already mentioned the troubles with replacing Tomboy with any of those. Zim is suitable for hackers, not for people like my brother. KNotes BasKet are both KDE apps, unsuitable for GNOME distros. And Gnote is most certainly not better than Tomboy. It's an incomplete emulation of the original that breaks the formats used by Tomboy. And do you know how Hub responded to my bug report about him breaking the format's compatibility? He essentially said he was trying to lock users in. He doesn't want users to have the choice to go back to Tomboy. The Tomboy developer's response was to change Tomboy to accept Hub's broken notes for the sake of keeping users' choice in-tact. Now, which falls more into the category of freedom-loving? The developer who uses a patented technology which is no more a threat than MP3 to write software that doesn't bind the user, or the developer who uses unpatented technology to bind the user to him? -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Remcoremc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Luke Llukehasnon...@gmail.com wrote: This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. Who is trolling me? I think Mark Fink can use some communication skills, but he has a certain point somewhere deep down. Wine and Mono are great interoperability efforts, but if Ubuntu is going to be using it in the default install, then Microsoft can just say: They can't even create their own application framework! yes, this is one of the MANY reasons why MONO should be removed -- Only by destroying MONO can Linux be saved. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 10:00:27 am Mark Fink wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Remcoremc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Luke Llukehasnon...@gmail.com wrote: This guy is trolling you hard. REALLY hard. Who is trolling me? I think Mark Fink can use some communication skills, but he has a certain point somewhere deep down. Wine and Mono are great interoperability efforts, but if Ubuntu is going to be using it in the default install, then Microsoft can just say: They can't even create their own application framework! yes, this is one of the MANY reasons why MONO should be removed Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Mackenzie Morgan wrote: Jo is a nice fellow, met him at UDS. Didn't seem very much to be infiltrating...more like sitting around being cheerful and chatting with whatever folks sat down. Oh sure. That's what he _wants_ you to think -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. Ubuntu is supposed to be a collection of amazing free software, not a gratis Microsoft Windows. Consider that the Windows platform nowadays *is* .NET. Win32 is deprecated. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 10:55:32 am Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: And in using Flash, we're Adobe technology users (even if, like I do, you use swfdec instead of Adobe's plugin). Sometimes pragmatism is needed to gain enough users for the critical mass that would let us push back. That's different. Flash is ubiquitous on the internet. And it's not even installed by default. When video gets implemented by the major sites, Flash will get installed far less. IIRC, video is: 1) only in HTML5, not XHTML 2) no longer requiring OGG Theora #2 just gets us right back to the old problem where we need fifty billion codecs to play anything on the internet. And even if we were to use Flash technology, that's not the same as using Microsoft technology. Ubuntu's main competitor is Microsoft. Using someone else's dogfood (Mono) because your own dogfood (Java) is crap is not good advertising. I would argue that our main competitor is Apple. People jumping ship from Microsoft tend to go to Apple. We're here to show there's an alternative to that jump. Jumping from Apple to Microsoft is not as common. Mono is used for two applications: a photo manager and a note-taking program. Those programs are hardly a selling point of Ubuntu. And therefore, the use of Mono is unwarranted. Yet the desktop would be incomplete without them and they have no *good* replacements. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
This is clearly a not invented here syndrome. please read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here I'm a software engineer, I personally tried both java and .net (I don't like python very much because it's easy to get things out of control) I don't care where a technology is created, but what are the advantages I prefer .net because it has more language expressiveness than java (there are more constructs which can be used), and it runs faster (for instance in linux eclipse is really 10x slower than windows), and it's better integrated into gtk. I'm waiting for a new version of java with all the .net features and speed. In this case I would replace mono -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Boot Performance Targets for Karmic and +1
Hi Scott: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 10:07, Scott James Remnant sc...@canonical.comwrote: [0] sharp-eyed readers will know this has just been end-of-lifed; we have yet to decide whether to change the platform as a result - a possibility is to use the Dell Mini 10v which should give near-identical results, but we haven't verified that yet I believe the results should be near identical as well. The mini10v is practically the mini9 in a bigger shell with a nicer keyboard. The mini 10v would actually be quite useful in the sense that it's available with either SSD or HD, so you can literally see the differences that a hard drive makes on the system versus SSD too. -- Mario Limonciello supe...@gmail.com Sent from Manchester, New Hampshire, United States -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
a recent maxima / wxmaxima version
hi, I would like to see a recent maxima/wxmaxima version to be added to a (still open) repo the latest maxima version is 5.17: http://maxima.sourceforge.net/ the latest in ANY of the repos is 5.13 http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=maxima the Debian package of 5.17 installs and runs fine: http://packages.debian.org/sid/maxima my favourite GUI wxmaxima has plenty of improvements that need maxima at least 5.17: http://wxmaxima.sourceforge.net/ there are wxmaxima versions available for maxima 5.17 on http://zeus.nyf.hu/~blahota/linux/ * the version (0.8.2) for ubuntu 9.04 does not run on my hardy with 5.17 maxima from debian * the version (0.8.1) for ubuntu 8.10 DOES RUN on my hardy with 5.17 maxima from debian Thus I would like to see an ubuntu version of maxima 5.17 in Jaunty or Karmic (the earliest possible) and a corresponding wxmaxima (0.8.1 or 0.8.2) as well. After that I'll be happy to help its backporting to hardy. thanks for your work Viktor -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Monday 08 June 2009 11:35:15 am Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: IIRC, video is: 1) only in HTML5, not XHTML Which is irrelevant. Nobody uses XHTML. The kind of fake XHTML that some web designers use can use video without problem. XHTML 1.0 Strict can use video? Microsoft is the market leader. Ergo, main competitor. And if Apple were the market leader, we're still free Windows, which is not something an Apple user cares about. But which two OSes are gaining users and which is losing them? We get to squabble with Apple over who gets the users that leave Microsoft. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: The awesome software sources adding feature
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Vincenzo Cianciacian...@di.unipi.it wrote: That was awesome. Why haven't I seen the functionality used before? Install directions with repositories involved look completely hostile right now, but this resolves the issue perfectly. The functionality of saving the apt sources and of saving the full package selection from synaptic should be merged: it takes a very small effort to clone an ubuntu system that way. Are there hurdles that I don't see? Speaking of things that should be in Synaptic, the functionality of gui-apt-key springs to mind; rather than importing key files, we should just be able to look them up or type in the number, e.g. if you wanted to add the Wine HQ repository, when adding the apt line: deb http://wine.budgetdedicated.com/apt/ jaunty main that there could be a spot to add the key (387EE263) or better yet have it automatically extracted from the repo with some confirmation that it is the key for Scott Ritchie, do you want to add it? CK (who was highly annoyed to discover that the official Miro repository is unsigned ): -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Nicolò Chieffo wrote: This is clearly a not invented here syndrome. please read wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here I'm a software engineer, I personally tried both java and .net (I don't like python very much because it's easy to get things out of control) I don't care where a technology is created, but what are the advantages I prefer .net because it has more language expressiveness than java (there are more constructs which can be used), and it runs faster (for instance in linux eclipse is really 10x slower than windows), It might be slower. 10x? No way... I'm waiting for a new version of java with all the .net features and speed. In this case I would replace mono LOL. I've been waiting for a Java like that for almost 15 years. It keeps getting _bigger_ not faster. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages -- derek Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You can find those in the repositories as well. Maybe we should call MPEG-LA that there is big patent infringement going on here... Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, and should not be treated as such. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Remco remc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Mackenzie Morganmaco...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand why the term application framework is any better than a pile of libraries and languages that work together, but I think it'd be extremely difficult for Microsoft to try to argue that .NET is older than GTK+, Qt, C, C++, and Python. We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages -- derek Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You can find those in the repositories as well. Maybe we should call MPEG-LA that there is big patent infringement going on here... Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, and should not be treated as such. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
well _sir_, I just cant help _but_ notice _that_ you are all_acting douchebags--_and_ I thought _I_ might _make_ that obser_vation_. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:22 PM, David Schlesinger david.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Someone from Access chimed in on this one, glad he's getting paid to dick around like this. Er, _what_? I'm afraid I'm unable to work out the relevance of this comment to that message. Not to put too fine a point on it, I'm actually still on sabbatical this week, so to be technical, I'm getting paid to _relax_. Watching my inbox filling up with the same nonsensical Mono is a Microsoft plot to take over Linux, and Miguel and the gang are actually undercover shills for Steve Ballmer flamewar, instigated yet _again_ on this list by Mark Fink, is harshing my mellow... Personally, I think you have to bend over backwards to suggest that Miguel (and the rest of the folks) have not contributed _immeasurably_ over the years to free software. As for Mono apps, as a photographer, I like F-Stop and I use it. Nautilus might work for some folks, but with literally hundred and thousands of photos to sort through, that won't work for me. If someone wants to come up with a credible non-Mono replacement for that, and _then_ argue that F-Stop should be removed, fine. But please don't tell me, in effect, that I should use LaTex instead of Open Office to do all my documents because a) OO can save things in MS Word format, and that's evil, or patented, or something, and b) that LaTex works fine for _you_... The solution I see here is that Mark Fink and Remco and others who feel similarly find some other distribution more to their tastes than Ubuntu. And if Mark Shuttleworth wants or doesn't want something in Ubuntu, he's more than capable of saying so, he doesn't need folks attempting to channel him here... -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: We're still being a Microsoft technology user, which is what Mark Shuttleworth didn't want, and is the reason why Wine is not included in Ubuntu. It's not? When did that happen? $ apt-cache policy wine wine: Installed: (none) Candidate: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 Version table: 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 0 500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/universe Packages Oh, so now Ubuntu also comes with Windows Media, H.264 and DivX? You can find those in the repositories as well. Where? See, I demonstrated how exactly wine _is_ in Ubuntu, and you counter by throwing out some vague concepts without a single package name. Wine is in _universe_. That's an Ubuntu repository. Windows media codecs have a package that allows _you_ to download from an another source. It's a pretty huge distinction. Of course not. The repositories are not part of the default install, and should not be treated as such. The repositories are part of a default install - they get added to your default sources. Things like wine aren't omitted from the CD for _policy_ reasons, they're omitted for _space_. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, I was wrong, not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. Are you really just fink using different nym? and I'm *not* Mark Fink. OK, I guess you're sure, but that doesn't make your argument valid. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: sorry stephan for getting this twice, didn't hit reply-to-mailinglist Oh well...in the 80ties/90ties when Java was invented and was used by more people then Turbo Pascal in no time, I said the same...It was closed source, and had too much of Sun in it.. KDE/Qt we should start a wall of fame =D Probably not on anybody's radar but let's add: Firebirdsql/Interbase (is this about closed software going opensource? :-D) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:17 AM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: Basically, it just needs the same love as Mono. One thing I think I can state with certainty about free and open source software development is that demanding that a bunch of other folks drop what they're doing and give love to something else on your behalf never works. Maybe your time, and Mark's, would be better spent writing a credible F-Spot replacement if you think that's something that needs to be done; certainly don't expect anyone else to do it because F-Spot happens to upset you. And see what I wrote half a day ago: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Remcoremc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Mark Finkmpf...@gmail.com wrote: I see you are shooting the messenger, steve. the MONO camp has infiltrated canonical and now they are going around censoring anything that proves MONO to be the poison that it is. this is not a laughing matter and the fact that you slandering roy schestowitz only goes to show you are probably part of the problem. These accusations are not helping your case. If you want to really solve the problem you need to: * improve the Gnome-Java bindings and get them in Ubuntu * make a Java equivalent of F-Spot and Tomboy * push for replacement of these apps and the framework I'm all for replacing Mono with Java, but the problems need to be fixed. Complaining is not going to do that. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Remco wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, I was wrong, not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. On second thoughts, don't bother. You're clearly just a troll, after all. and you can install them through Add/Remove. The codecs aren't installed because of patent problems. The codecs aren't even in the repositories _because of patent problems_. Wine isn't installed because Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of knowledge of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for that matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says that Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one says that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. You've now pushed me to the extreme, because I really don't have a Nobody pushed you - we rebutted poorly thought arguments and you accused us of arguing semantics (which is not quite the insult you seem to think). If you continue this ridiculous rant, you'll be shouting into the bit bucket...plonk -- derek -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, I was wrong, not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. What's your argument against my position? That I maybe made a semantic cock-up in a throwaway comparison? That's a great one... How does that relate to Mono? The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. If the codecs are not in the repos, then I'm amazed as to how they got onto my system. Clearly, the ffmpeg project (yeah, universe) doesn't exist. Besides, how is the exact location of the codecs relevant? I can install them in the same way as I install Wine. Wine isn't installed because Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of knowledge of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for that matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says that Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one says that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. Slashdot is not the source. Look one click further and you'll find the actual source. You just fell in the same trap as the Wikipedia naysayers. It's just easy reference. And if you don't want to see this as the motivation for not including Wine, then so be it. I think it's pretty clear why Wine is not supposed to be on the default install. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
I sorry, just wanted to be a part of the lols On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:48 PM, Remco remc...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 1:50 AM, Derek Broughtonde...@pointerstop.ca wrote: Remco wrote: On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:52 PM, David Schlesingerdavid.schlesin...@access-company.com wrote: As Derek pointed out, Wine is indeed in the universal repository. You were completely mistaken about it, rendering your argument meaningless. The appropriate response at that point is to say, I was wrong, not to try to switch to a completely different argument in mid-stream. Nobody's come within a parsec of suggesting that the codecs you mention should be part of the default install. I guess you're really not getting my point. I was actually trying to let you work that one out by comparing it to the codecs. That's not an argument, it's a complete misdirection. The non-free Codecs _aren't_ in Ubuntu repositories, Wine is. You're arguing semantics. I don't care about semantics. Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. What's your argument against my position? That I maybe made a semantic cock-up in a throwaway comparison? That's a great one... How does that relate to Mono? The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. If the codecs are not in the repos, then I'm amazed as to how they got onto my system. Clearly, the ffmpeg project (yeah, universe) doesn't exist. Besides, how is the exact location of the codecs relevant? I can install them in the same way as I install Wine. Wine isn't installed because Mark Shuttleworth doesn't want Ubuntu to be cheap Windows: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/11/1220219 http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/05/1546230 Excuse me, but when did slashdot become an authoritative source of knowledge of the workings of Mark Shuttleworth's mind (or of anything else, for that matter). In any case, the first of those simply says Wine won't be preinstalled on Dell minis, and the second is even more vague - it says that Shuttleworth isn't staking the future of Ubuntu on Wine. Neither one says that Ubuntu will ever _not_ include Wine. Slashdot is not the source. Look one click further and you'll find the actual source. You just fell in the same trap as the Wikipedia naysayers. It's just easy reference. And if you don't want to see this as the motivation for not including Wine, then so be it. I think it's pretty clear why Wine is not supposed to be on the default install. Remco -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Paige Adele Thompson Mobile: 206-446-630 E-mail/GTalk: erra...@devel.ws -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
As a reader of this list I have to confess that the tone of the emails being sent appear to have degenerated into name calling and I have to confess that I'm not particularly interested to spend my voluntary spare time reading messages between people abusing one another. Perhaps I'm naive in thinking that a technical argument can be had in a civilised tone. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Bigpond NextG at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - o...@itmaze.com.au -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
2009/6/9 Derek Broughton de...@pointerstop.ca Sorry, but no. You are pretending to have a rational discussion, while dismissing perfectly valid arguments. The codecs are not-in-Ubuntu the same way as Wine, because they are not installed, No, they are not. The codecs are NOT in Ubuntu at all. Show me where they exist in the repositories. Wine is in the repos. I don't have strong feelings about Mono, but the OP suggests: The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who want them... Sounds much like the current policy of Restricted drivers. So from the POV of the OP getting rid of mono means removing it from the default install. A number of people have interpreted it to mean removing it from the repos, but doesn't appear to be what the OP wants, indeed AFAICT noone here has /specifically/ suggested removing Mono from the repos. To put things in perspective, mono requires 15MiB in .deb form and 44MiB installed. Thats about 2% of the space on the CD. If, hypothetically, Ubuntu was prevented from distributing wine, at least we wouldn't have to rebuild 'stable' CD-images. -- John C. McCabe-Dansted total=0 dpkg -l | grep mono | sed 's/[[:alnum:]]* //' | sed 's/ .*$//' | sed s/[[:space:]]//g | while read f do grep Package: $f /var/lib/apt/lists/*_pub_ubuntu_dists_jaunty_main_binary-amd64_Packages -A20 #done | grep ^Size: | sed 's/[^[:digit:]]//g' | while read size ; do total=$(($total+$size)) ; echo $size $total $(($total/1024/1024))MiB done | grep ^Installed-Size: | sed 's/[^[:digit:]]//g' | while read size ; do total=$(($total+$size)) ; echo $size $total $(($total/1024))MiB done -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: shameful censoring of mono opposition
Perhaps I'm naive in thinking that a technical argument can be had in a civilised tone. Ah, but you see...these are NOT technical arguments. These are about 'standards'. Can there really be a technical argument between using say the metric system versus the foot/yard or the ounce/pound? That is why it is easy for flamewars to start when it comes to bash vs c-shell vs korn or c vs c++ or whatever combination you wish because in the end...it is about 'standards'. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
