Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Asmus Freytag via Unicode]

  
  
On 5/28/2018 6:30 AM, Hans Åberg via
  Unicode wrote:


  
Unifying these would make a real mess of lower casing!

  
  German has a special sign ß for "ss", without upper capital version.



You may want to retract the second part of
that sentence.
An uppercase exists and it has formally been
ruled as acceptable way to write this letter (mostly an issue
for ALL CAPS as ß does not occur in word-initial
  position). 

A./

  

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Richard Wordingham via Unicode]

On Mon, 28 May 2018 10:08:30 +0200
Hans Åberg via Unicode  wrote:

> > On 28 May 2018, at 03:39, Garth Wallace  wrote:
> > The fact that they do not denote the same width in cents in Arabic
> > music as they do in Western modern classical does not matter. That
> > sort of precision is not inherent to the written symbols.  
> 
> It is not about precision, but concepts. Like B, Β, and В, which
> could have been unified, but are not.

Unifying these would make a real mess of lower casing!

What is the context in which the Arab use would benefit from having a
different encoding?

Richard.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Hans Åberg via Unicode]

> On 28 May 2018, at 11:05, Julian Bradfield via Unicode  
> wrote:
> 
> On 2018-05-28, Hans Åberg via Unicode  wrote:
>>> On 28 May 2018, at 03:39, Garth Wallace  wrote:
 On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Hans Åberg  wrote:
 The flats and sharps of Arabic music are semantically the same as in 
 Western music, departing from Pythagorean tuning, then, but the microtonal 
 accidentals are different: they simply reused some that were available.
> ...
>>> The fact that they do not denote the same width in cents in Arabic music as 
>>> they do in Western modern classical does not matter. That sort of precision 
>>> is not inherent to the written symbols.
>> 
>> It is not about precision, but concepts. Like B, Β, and В, which could have 
>> been unified, but are not.
> 
> Latin, Greek, Cyrillic etc. could not have been unified, because of the
> requirement to have round-trip compatibility with previous encodings.

Indeed, in Unicode because of that, which I pointed out.

> It is also, of course, convenient for many reasons to have the notion
> of "script" hard-coded into unicode code-points, instead of in
> higher-level mark-up where it arguably belongs - just as, when
> copyright finally expires, it will be convenient to have Tolkien's
> runes disunified from historical runes (which is the line taken by the
> proposal waiting for that day). Whether it is so convenient to have a
> "music script" notion hard-coded is presumably what this argument is
> about. It's not obvious to me that musical notation is something that
> carries the "script" baggage in the same way that writing systems do.

Indeed, that is what I also pointed out. So I suggested to contact the SMuFL 
people which might inform about the underlying reasoning, and then make a 
decision about what might be suitable for Unicode. They probably have them 
separate for the same reason as for scripts: originally different fonts 
encodings, but those are not official, and in addition it is for music 
engraving, and not writing in text files.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Hans Åberg via Unicode]

> On 28 May 2018, at 03:39, Garth Wallace  wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Hans Åberg  wrote:
>> The flats and sharps of Arabic music are semantically the same as in Western 
>> music, departing from Pythagorean tuning, then, but the microtonal 
>> accidentals are different: they simply reused some that were available.
>> 
> But they aren't different! They are the same symbols. They are, as you 
> yourself say, reused.

Historically, yes, but not necessarily now.

> The fact that they do not denote the same width in cents in Arabic music as 
> they do in Western modern classical does not matter. That sort of precision 
> is not inherent to the written symbols.

It is not about precision, but concepts. Like B, Β, and В, which could have 
been unified, but are not.

> By contrast, Persian music notation invented new microtonal accidentals, 
> called the koron and sori, and my impression is that their average value, as 
> measured by Hormoz Farhat in his thesis, is also usable in Arabic music. For 
> comparison, I have posted the Arabic maqam in Helmholtz-Ellis notation [1] 
> using this value; note that one actually needs two extra microtonal 
> accidentals—Arabic microtonal notation is in fact not complete.
> 
> The E24 exact quarter-tones are suitable for making a piano sound badly out 
> of tune. Compare that with the accordion in [2], Farid El Atrache - 
> "Noura-Noura".
> 
> 1. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-02/msg00607.html
> 2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvp6fo7tfpk
> > 
> 
> I don't really see how this is relevant. Nobody is claiming that the koron 
> and sori accidentals are the same symbols as the Arabic half-sharp and flat 
> with crossbar. They look entirely different. 

Arabic music simply happens to use Western style accidentals for concepts 
similar to Persian music rather than Western music.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Hans Åberg via Unicode]

The flats and sharps of Arabic music are semantically the same as in Western 
music, departing from Pythagorean tuning, then, but the microtonal accidentals 
are different: they simply reused some that were available. By contrast, 
Persian music notation invented new microtonal accidentals, called the koron 
and sori, and my impression is that their average value, as measured by Hormoz 
Farhat in his thesis, is also usable in Arabic music. For comparison, I have 
posted the Arabic maqam in Helmholtz-Ellis notation [1] using this value; note 
that one actually needs two extra microtonal accidentals—Arabic microtonal 
notation is in fact not complete.

The E24 exact quarter-tones are suitable for making a piano sound badly out of 
tune. Compare that with the accordion in [2], Farid El Atrache - "Noura-Noura".

1. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-02/msg00607.html
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvp6fo7tfpk


> On 27 May 2018, at 22:33, Philippe Verdy  wrote:
> 
> Thanks! 
> 
> Le dim. 27 mai 2018 22:18, Garth Wallace  a écrit :
> Philippe is entirely correct here. The fact that a symbol has somewhat 
> different meanings in different contexts does not mean that it is actually 
> multiple visually identical symbols. Otherwise Unicode would be re-encoding 
> the Latin alphabet many, many times over.
> 
> During most of Bach's career, the prevailing tuning system was meantone. He 
> wrote the Well-Tempered Clavier to explore the possibilities afforded by a 
> new tuning system called well temperament. In the modern era, his work has 
> typically been played in 12-tone equal temperament. That does not mean that 
> the ♯ that Bach used in his score for the Well-Tempered Clavier was not the 
> same symbol as the ♯ in his other scores, or that they somehow invisibly 
> became yet another symbol when the score is opened on the music desk of a 
> modern Steinway.
> 
> On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Philippe Verdy  wrote:
> Even flat notes or rythmic and pause symbols in Western musical notations 
> have different contextual meaning depending on musical keys at start of 
> scores, and other notations or symbols added above the score. So their 
> interpretation are also variable according to context, just like tuning in a 
> Arabic musical score, which is also keyed and annotated differently. These 
> keys can also change within the same partition score.
> So both the E12 vs. E24 systems (which are not incompatible) may also be used 
> in Western and Arabic music notations. The score keys will give the 
> interpretation.
> Tone marks taken isolately mean absolutely nothing in both systems outside 
> the keyed scores in which they are inserted, except that they are just 
> glyphs, which may be used to mean something else (e.g. a note in a comics 
> artwork could be used to denote someone whistling, without actually encoding 
> any specific tone, or rythmic).
> 
> 
> 2018-05-17 17:48 GMT+02:00 Hans Åberg via Unicode :
> 
> 
> > On 17 May 2018, at 16:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:41 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
> > 
> > > On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode  
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode 
> > >>  wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather 
> > >> comprehensive and include those:
> > >>  https://www.smufl what should be unified.org
> > >>  http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/
> > >> ...
> > >> 
> > >> These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So 
> > >> whether to unify them or having them separate might be best to see what 
> > >> SMuFL does, as they are experts on the issue.
> > >> 
> > > SMuFL's standards on unification are not the same as Unicode's. For one 
> > > thing, they re-encode Latin letters and Arabic digits multiple times for 
> > > various different uses (such as numbers used in tuplets and those used in 
> > > time signatures).
> > 
> > The reason is probably because it is intended for use with music engraving, 
> > and they should then be rendered differently.
> > 
> > Exactly. But Unicode would consider these a matter for font switching in 
> > rich text.
> 
> One original principle was ensure different encodings, so if the practise in 
> music engraving is to keep them different, they might be encoded differently.
> 
> > > There are duplicates all over the place, like how the half-sharp symbol 
> > > is encoded at U+E282 as "accidentalQuarterToneSharpStein", at U+E422 as 
> > > "accidentalWyschnegradsky3TwelfthsSharp", at U+ED35 as 
> > > "accidentalQuarterToneSharpArabic", and at U+E444 as 
> > > "accidentalKomaSharp". They are graphically identical, and the first 
> > > three even all mean the same thing, a quarter tone sharp!
> > 
> > But the 

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Garth Wallace via Unicode]

Philippe is entirely correct here. The fact that a symbol has somewhat
different meanings in different contexts does not mean that it is actually
multiple visually identical symbols. Otherwise Unicode would be re-encoding
the Latin alphabet many, many times over.

During most of Bach's career, the prevailing tuning system was meantone. He
wrote the Well-Tempered Clavier to explore the possibilities afforded by a
new tuning system called well temperament. In the modern era, his work has
typically been played in 12-tone equal temperament. That does not mean that
the ♯ that Bach used in his score for the Well-Tempered Clavier was not the
same symbol as the ♯ in his other scores, or that they somehow invisibly
became yet another symbol when the score is opened on the music desk of a
modern Steinway.

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Philippe Verdy  wrote:

> Even flat notes or rythmic and pause symbols in Western musical notations
> have different contextual meaning depending on musical keys at start of
> scores, and other notations or symbols added above the score. So their
> interpretation are also variable according to context, just like tuning in
> a Arabic musical score, which is also keyed and annotated differently.
> These keys can also change within the same partition score.
> So both the E12 vs. E24 systems (which are not incompatible) may also be
> used in Western and Arabic music notations. The score keys will give the
> interpretation.
> Tone marks taken isolately mean absolutely nothing in both systems outside
> the keyed scores in which they are inserted, except that they are just
> glyphs, which may be used to mean something else (e.g. a note in a comics
> artwork could be used to denote someone whistling, without actually
> encoding any specific tone, or rythmic).
>
>
> 2018-05-17 17:48 GMT+02:00 Hans Åberg via Unicode :
>
>>
>>
>> > On 17 May 2018, at 16:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode <
>> unicode@unicode.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:41 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
>> >
>> > > On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode <
>> unicode@unicode.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode <
>> unicode@unicode.org> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather
>> comprehensive and include those:
>> > >>  https://www.smufl what should be unified.org
>> > >>  http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/
>> > >> ...
>> > >>
>> > >> These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So
>> whether to unify them or having them separate might be best to see what
>> SMuFL does, as they are experts on the issue.
>> > >>
>> > > SMuFL's standards on unification are not the same as Unicode's. For
>> one thing, they re-encode Latin letters and Arabic digits multiple times
>> for various different uses (such as numbers used in tuplets and those used
>> in time signatures).
>> >
>> > The reason is probably because it is intended for use with music
>> engraving, and they should then be rendered differently.
>> >
>> > Exactly. But Unicode would consider these a matter for font switching
>> in rich text.
>>
>> One original principle was ensure different encodings, so if the practise
>> in music engraving is to keep them different, they might be encoded
>> differently.
>>
>> > > There are duplicates all over the place, like how the half-sharp
>> symbol is encoded at U+E282 as "accidentalQuarterToneSharpStein", at
>> U+E422 as "accidentalWyschnegradsky3TwelfthsSharp", at U+ED35 as
>> "accidentalQuarterToneSharpArabic", and at U+E444 as
>> "accidentalKomaSharp". They are graphically identical, and the first three
>> even all mean the same thing, a quarter tone sharp!
>> >
>> > But the tuning system is different, E24 and Pythagorean. Some Latin and
>> Greek uppercase letters are exactly the same but have different encodings.
>> >
>> > Tuning systems are not scripts.
>>
>> That seems obvious. As I pointed out above, the Arabic glyphs were
>> originally taken from Western ones, but have a different musical meaning,
>> also when played using E12, as some do.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Philippe Verdy via Unicode]

Even flat notes or rythmic and pause symbols in Western musical notations
have different contextual meaning depending on musical keys at start of
scores, and other notations or symbols added above the score. So their
interpretation are also variable according to context, just like tuning in
a Arabic musical score, which is also keyed and annotated differently.
These keys can also change within the same partition score.
So both the E12 vs. E24 systems (which are not incompatible) may also be
used in Western and Arabic music notations. The score keys will give the
interpretation.
Tone marks taken isolately mean absolutely nothing in both systems outside
the keyed scores in which they are inserted, except that they are just
glyphs, which may be used to mean something else (e.g. a note in a comics
artwork could be used to denote someone whistling, without actually
encoding any specific tone, or rythmic).


2018-05-17 17:48 GMT+02:00 Hans Åberg via Unicode :

>
>
> > On 17 May 2018, at 16:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:41 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
> >
> > > On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode <
> unicode@unicode.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode <
> unicode@unicode.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather
> comprehensive and include those:
> > >>  https://www.smufl what should be unified.org
> > >>  http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/
> > >> ...
> > >>
> > >> These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So
> whether to unify them or having them separate might be best to see what
> SMuFL does, as they are experts on the issue.
> > >>
> > > SMuFL's standards on unification are not the same as Unicode's. For
> one thing, they re-encode Latin letters and Arabic digits multiple times
> for various different uses (such as numbers used in tuplets and those used
> in time signatures).
> >
> > The reason is probably because it is intended for use with music
> engraving, and they should then be rendered differently.
> >
> > Exactly. But Unicode would consider these a matter for font switching in
> rich text.
>
> One original principle was ensure different encodings, so if the practise
> in music engraving is to keep them different, they might be encoded
> differently.
>
> > > There are duplicates all over the place, like how the half-sharp
> symbol is encoded at U+E282 as "accidentalQuarterToneSharpStein", at
> U+E422 as "accidentalWyschnegradsky3TwelfthsSharp", at U+ED35 as "
> accidentalQuarterToneSharpArabic", and at U+E444 as
> "accidentalKomaSharp". They are graphically identical, and the first three
> even all mean the same thing, a quarter tone sharp!
> >
> > But the tuning system is different, E24 and Pythagorean. Some Latin and
> Greek uppercase letters are exactly the same but have different encodings.
> >
> > Tuning systems are not scripts.
>
> That seems obvious. As I pointed out above, the Arabic glyphs were
> originally taken from Western ones, but have a different musical meaning,
> also when played using E12, as some do.
>
>
>
>

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Hans Åberg via Unicode]

> On 17 May 2018, at 16:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode  
> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:41 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
> 
> > On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode  
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather 
> >> comprehensive and include those:
> >>  https://www.smufl what should be unified.org
> >>  http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/
> >> ...
> >> 
> >> These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So whether 
> >> to unify them or having them separate might be best to see what SMuFL 
> >> does, as they are experts on the issue.
> >> 
> > SMuFL's standards on unification are not the same as Unicode's. For one 
> > thing, they re-encode Latin letters and Arabic digits multiple times for 
> > various different uses (such as numbers used in tuplets and those used in 
> > time signatures).
> 
> The reason is probably because it is intended for use with music engraving, 
> and they should then be rendered differently.
> 
> Exactly. But Unicode would consider these a matter for font switching in rich 
> text.

One original principle was ensure different encodings, so if the practise in 
music engraving is to keep them different, they might be encoded differently.

> > There are duplicates all over the place, like how the half-sharp symbol is 
> > encoded at U+E282 as "accidentalQuarterToneSharpStein", at U+E422 as 
> > "accidentalWyschnegradsky3TwelfthsSharp", at U+ED35 as 
> > "accidentalQuarterToneSharpArabic", and at U+E444 as "accidentalKomaSharp". 
> > They are graphically identical, and the first three even all mean the same 
> > thing, a quarter tone sharp!
> 
> But the tuning system is different, E24 and Pythagorean. Some Latin and Greek 
> uppercase letters are exactly the same but have different encodings.
> 
> Tuning systems are not scripts.

That seems obvious. As I pointed out above, the Arabic glyphs were originally 
taken from Western ones, but have a different musical meaning, also when played 
using E12, as some do.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Garth Wallace via Unicode]

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:41 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:

>
> > On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode <
> unicode@unicode.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather
> comprehensive and include those:
> >>  https://www.smufl what should be unified.org
> >>  http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/
> >> ...
> >>
> >> These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So
> whether to unify them or having them separate might be best to see what
> SMuFL does, as they are experts on the issue.
> >>
> > SMuFL's standards on unification are not the same as Unicode's. For one
> thing, they re-encode Latin letters and Arabic digits multiple times for
> various different uses (such as numbers used in tuplets and those used in
> time signatures).
>
> The reason is probably because it is intended for use with music
> engraving, and they should then be rendered differently.


Exactly. But Unicode would consider these a matter for font switching in
rich text.

> There are duplicates all over the place, like how the half-sharp symbol
> is encoded at U+E282 as "accidentalQuarterToneSharpStein", at U+E422 as
> "accidentalWyschnegradsky3TwelfthsSharp", at U+ED35 as
> "accidentalQuarterToneSharpArabic", and at U+E444 as "accidentalKomaSharp".
> They are graphically identical, and the first three even all mean the same
> thing, a quarter tone sharp!
>
> But the tuning system is different, E24 and Pythagorean. Some Latin and
> Greek uppercase letters are exactly the same but have different encodings.


Tuning systems are not scripts.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Hans Åberg via Unicode]

> On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode  
> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather comprehensive 
>> and include those:
>>  https://www.smufl what should be unified.org
>>  http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/
>> ...
>> 
>> These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So whether 
>> to unify them or having them separate might be best to see what SMuFL does, 
>> as they are experts on the issue.
>> 
> SMuFL's standards on unification are not the same as Unicode's. For one 
> thing, they re-encode Latin letters and Arabic digits multiple times for 
> various different uses (such as numbers used in tuplets and those used in 
> time signatures).

The reason is probably because it is intended for use with music engraving, and 
they should then be rendered differently.

> There are duplicates all over the place, like how the half-sharp symbol is 
> encoded at U+E282 as "accidentalQuarterToneSharpStein", at U+E422 as 
> "accidentalWyschnegradsky3TwelfthsSharp", at U+ED35 as 
> "accidentalQuarterToneSharpArabic", and at U+E444 as "accidentalKomaSharp". 
> They are graphically identical, and the first three even all mean the same 
> thing, a quarter tone sharp!

But the tuning system is different, E24 and Pythagorean. Some Latin and Greek 
uppercase letters are exactly the same but have different encodings.

> The last, though meaning something different in Turkish context (Turkish 
> theory divides tones into 1/9-tones), is still clearly the same symbol. The 
> "Arabic accidentals" section even re-encodes all of the non-microtonal 
> accidentals (basic sharp, flat, natural, etc.) for no reason that I can 
> determine.

In Turkish AEU (Arel-Ezgi-Uzdilek) notation the sharp # is a microtonal symbol, 
not the ordinary sharp, so it should be different. In Arabic music, they are 
the same though, so they can be unified.

> There are definitely many things in SMuFL where you could make a claim that 
> they should be in Unicode proper. But not all, and the standard itself is a 
> bit of a mess.

You need to work through those little details to see what fits. Should it help 
with music engraving, or merely be used in plain text? Should symbols that that 
look alike but have different musical meaning be unified?

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Garth Wallace via Unicode]

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode <
unicode@unicode.org> wrote:

>
> > On 16 May 2018, at 00:48, Ken Whistler via Unicode 
> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/15/2018 2:46 PM, Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote:
> >> I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols
> table:
> >>
> >> - the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone)
> >> - the half-sharp sign (raises a note by a quarter tone)
> >>
> >> In an actual proposal, I would expect a discussion of whether you are
> proposing to encode established symbols, or whether you are proposing new
> symbols to be adopted by the community (in which case Unicode would
> probably wait & see if they get established).
> >>
> >> A proposal should also show evidence of usage and glyph variations.
> >
> > And should probably refer to the relationship between these signs and
> the existing:
>
> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather
> comprehensive and include those:
>  https://www.smufl what should be unified.org 
>  http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/


If you want to write up a proposal for that entire set of characters,
godspeed and good luck.

> U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
> > U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT
> >
> > which are also half-sharp or half-flat accidentals.
> >
> > The wiki on flat signs shows this flat with a crossbar, as well as a
> reversed flat symbol, to represent the half-flat.
> >
> > And the wiki on sharp signs shows this sharp minus one vertical bar to
> represent the half-sharp.
> >
> > So there may be some use of these signs in microtonal notation, outside
> of an Arabic context, as well. See:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_(music)#Microtonal_notation
>
> These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So whether
> to unify them or having them separate might be best to see what SMuFL does,
> as they are experts on the issue.
>

SMuFL's standards on unification are not the same as Unicode's. For one
thing, they re-encode Latin letters and Arabic digits multiple times for
various different uses (such as numbers used in tuplets and those used in
time signatures). There are duplicates all over the place, like how the
half-sharp symbol is encoded at U+E282 as
"accidentalQuarterToneSharpStein", at U+E422 as
"accidentalWyschnegradsky3TwelfthsSharp", at U+ED35 as
"accidentalQuarterToneSharpArabic", and at U+E444 as "accidentalKomaSharp".
They are graphically identical, and the first three even all mean the same
thing, a quarter tone sharp! The last, though meaning something different
in Turkish context (Turkish theory divides tones into 1/9-tones), is still
clearly the same symbol. The "Arabic accidentals" section even re-encodes
all of the non-microtonal accidentals (basic sharp, flat, natural, etc.)
for no reason that I can determine.

There are definitely many things in SMuFL where you could make a claim that
they should be in Unicode proper. But not all, and the standard itself is a
bit of a mess.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Hans Åberg via Unicode]

> On 16 May 2018, at 09:42, Hans Åberg via Unicode  wrote:
> 
>> On 16 May 2018, at 00:48, Ken Whistler via Unicode  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> A proposal should also show evidence of usage and glyph variations.
>> 
>> And should probably refer to the relationship between these signs and the 
>> existing:
> 
> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather comprehensive 
> and include those:
> https://www.smufl.org
> http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/
> 
>> U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
>> U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT
>> 
>> which are also half-sharp or half-flat accidentals.
>> 
>> The wiki on flat signs shows this flat with a crossbar, as well as a 
>> reversed flat symbol, to represent the half-flat.
>> 
>> And the wiki on sharp signs shows this sharp minus one vertical bar to 
>> represent the half-sharp.
>> 
>> So there may be some use of these signs in microtonal notation, outside of 
>> an Arabic context, as well. See:
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_(music)#Microtonal_notation
> 
> These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So whether to 
> unify them or having them separate might be best to see what SMuFL does, as 
> they are experts on the issue.

Clarification: The Arabic accidentals, listed here as separate entities
  http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/range/arabicAccidentals/
appear in LilyPond as ordinary microtonal accidentals:
  
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/the-feta-font#accidental-glyphs

So what I meant above is that originally, they were the same, i.e., when 
starting to use them in Arabic music, one took some Western microtonal 
accidentals. Now they mean microtones in the style of Arabic music, and the 
musical interpretation varies.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Johnny Farraj via Unicode]

Hi Garth,

You are right, I sent a similar posting to the list 3 years ago. at that
time I was hoping get help from some of the more experienced members on the
list to write a proposal. this is a very specialized job and it could take
me months to figure out the process and learn the language. But no one was
able to help. so I'm trying again.

My motivation is being able to type these symbols directly into a MS-Word
document or HTML page, just like you would type a Western flat or sharp
accidental symbol today. My motivation is NOT to make these symbols
available in sheet music notation software; there are solutions for that
today and it's a whole different problem domain.

About the existing symbols

U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT

I don't know what musical tradition these belong to, as far as I know no
one uses them in real life.

I need to make the case for new symbols called Arabic Half Flat / Sharp. I
don't see my proposal really as a duplication of existing symbols for the
following reason: there is no universal way to notate such accidentals, and
every musical tradition with concepts such as half-flat and half-sharp has
its own standard. I am not an expert in any tradition other than Arabic.
therefore all I'm trying to do is add the Arabic version of these symbols.

the Arabic symbols I'm proposing are established, and have been the
standard for a good 75 years. Any Arabic notation (except for a few
remnants from the 1930s before this standard in use) uses the symbols I'm
proposing to add. I do not foresee any disagreement over what the
half-sharp/half-flat Arabic symbols look like, and I can include tons of
evidence in my proposal.

Can someone on the list volunteer to guide with writing a proposal?

I'm willing to do all the work, I just don't know how to start. I need a
template, and I will be happy to complete it with all the required
information.

thanks

Johnny Farraj




On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:32 AM, Garth Wallace  wrote:

> What happened to the previous proposal? As I recall, there was some good
> discussion after an email from you back in 2015 <
> http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2015-m03/0118.html> and
> Michael Everson offered assistance, but no formal proposal has been
> submitted to the Documents Register since then.
>
> These symbols are also used in Turkish notation and Western microtonal
> notation. They are far more common than MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
> and MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT, which AFAICT only appear in the
> Unicode code charts and nowhere else.
>
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Johnny Farraj via Unicode <
> unicode@unicode.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Unicode list members,
>>
>> I wish to get feedback about a new symbol submission proposal.
>>
>> Currently the Miscellaneous Symbols table (2600-26FF) includes the
>> following characters:
>>
>> 266D ♭ MUSIC FLAT SIGN
>> 266F ♯ MUSIC SHARP SIGN
>>
>> while the Musical Symbols table (1D100 - 1D1FF) includes the following
>> characters:
>>
>> 1D12A 턪 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP
>> 1D12B 턫 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE FLAT
>> 1D12C 턬 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT UP
>> 1D12D 턭 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT DOWN
>> 1D130 터 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP UP
>> 1D131 턱 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP DOWN
>> 1D132 턲 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
>> 1D133 턳 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT
>>
>> None of these matches what's used in Arabic music notation.
>>
>> I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols
>> table:
>>
>> - the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone)
>> - the half-sharp sign (raises a note by a quarter tone)
>>
>> [image: Inline image]
>> [image: Inline image]
>>
>>
>> These are the correct symbols for Arabic music notation, and they express
>> intervals that are multiples of quarter tones. it would be really nice to
>> be able to include them directly in an HTML page or rich text document
>> using a native code rather than an image.
>>
>> I am the primary sponsor of this proposal. As far as my credentials, I am
>> the owner of http://maqamworld.com, the most widely used online resource
>> on Arabic music theory, in English.
>>
>> My co-sponsor is Sami Abu Shumays, author of http://maqamlessons.com,
>> another important online reference for Arabic music theory.
>>
>> Together, we are in the process of publishing a book on Arabic music
>> theory and performance with Oxford University Press, coming out late 2018.
>>
>> I can also enlist the support of many academics in the music theory field
>> who specialize in Arabic music.
>>
>> I welcome any feedback on this proposal.
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> Johnny Farraj
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


-- 

Johnny

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Hans Åberg via Unicode]

> On 16 May 2018, at 00:48, Ken Whistler via Unicode  
> wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/2018 2:46 PM, Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote:
>> I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols table:
>> 
>> - the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone) 
>> - the half-sharp sign (raises a note by a quarter tone)
>> 
>> In an actual proposal, I would expect a discussion of whether you are 
>> proposing to encode established symbols, or whether you are proposing new 
>> symbols to be adopted by the community (in which case Unicode would probably 
>> wait & see if they get established).
>> 
>> A proposal should also show evidence of usage and glyph variations.
> 
> And should probably refer to the relationship between these signs and the 
> existing:

It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather comprehensive and 
include those:
 https://www.smufl.org
 http://www.smufl.org/version/latest/

> U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
> U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT
> 
> which are also half-sharp or half-flat accidentals.
> 
> The wiki on flat signs shows this flat with a crossbar, as well as a reversed 
> flat symbol, to represent the half-flat.
> 
> And the wiki on sharp signs shows this sharp minus one vertical bar to 
> represent the half-sharp.
> 
> So there may be some use of these signs in microtonal notation, outside of an 
> Arabic context, as well. See:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_(music)#Microtonal_notation

These are otherwise originally the same, but has since drifted. So whether to 
unify them or having them separate might be best to see what SMuFL does, as 
they are experts on the issue.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Garth Wallace via Unicode]

What happened to the previous proposal? As I recall, there was some good
discussion after an email from you back in 2015 <
http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2015-m03/0118.html> and
Michael Everson offered assistance, but no formal proposal has been
submitted to the Documents Register since then.

These symbols are also used in Turkish notation and Western microtonal
notation. They are far more common than MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
and MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT, which AFAICT only appear in the
Unicode code charts and nowhere else.

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Johnny Farraj via Unicode <
unicode@unicode.org> wrote:

>
> Dear Unicode list members,
>
> I wish to get feedback about a new symbol submission proposal.
>
> Currently the Miscellaneous Symbols table (2600-26FF) includes the
> following characters:
>
> 266D ♭ MUSIC FLAT SIGN
> 266F ♯ MUSIC SHARP SIGN
>
> while the Musical Symbols table (1D100 - 1D1FF) includes the following
> characters:
>
> 1D12A 턪 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP
> 1D12B 턫 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE FLAT
> 1D12C 턬 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT UP
> 1D12D 턭 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT DOWN
> 1D130 터 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP UP
> 1D131 턱 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP DOWN
> 1D132 턲 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
> 1D133 턳 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT
>
> None of these matches what's used in Arabic music notation.
>
> I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols
> table:
>
> - the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone)
> - the half-sharp sign (raises a note by a quarter tone)
>
> [image: Inline image]
> [image: Inline image]
>
>
> These are the correct symbols for Arabic music notation, and they express
> intervals that are multiples of quarter tones. it would be really nice to
> be able to include them directly in an HTML page or rich text document
> using a native code rather than an image.
>
> I am the primary sponsor of this proposal. As far as my credentials, I am
> the owner of http://maqamworld.com, the most widely used online resource
> on Arabic music theory, in English.
>
> My co-sponsor is Sami Abu Shumays, author of http://maqamlessons.com,
> another important online reference for Arabic music theory.
>
> Together, we are in the process of publishing a book on Arabic music
> theory and performance with Oxford University Press, coming out late 2018.
>
> I can also enlist the support of many academics in the music theory field
> who specialize in Arabic music.
>
> I welcome any feedback on this proposal.
>
> thanks
>
> Johnny Farraj
>
>
>
>
>

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Ken Whistler via Unicode]

On 5/15/2018 2:46 PM, Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote:


I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical
Symbols table:

- the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone)
- the half-sharp sign (raises a note by a quarter tone)


In an actual proposal, I would expect a discussion of whether you are 
proposing to encode established symbols, or whether you are proposing 
new symbols to be adopted by the community (in which case Unicode 
would probably wait & see if they get established).


A proposal should also show evidence of usage and glyph variations.



And should probably refer to the relationship between these signs and 
the existing:


U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT

which are also half-sharp or half-flat accidentals.

The wiki on flat signs shows this flat with a crossbar, as well as a 
reversed flat symbol, to represent the half-flat.


And the wiki on sharp signs shows this sharp minus one vertical bar to 
represent the half-sharp.


So there may be some use of these signs in microtonal notation, outside 
of an Arabic context, as well. See:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_(music)#Microtonal_notation

--Ken

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Markus Scherer via Unicode]

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Johnny Farraj via Unicode <
unicode@unicode.org> wrote:

> Dear Unicode list members,
>
> I wish to get feedback about a new symbol submission proposal.
>

Just to clarify, this is a discussion list where you may get some useful
feedback. This is not where you would submit an actual proposal.

See https://www.unicode.org/pending/proposals.html

I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols
> table:
>
> - the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone)
> - the half-sharp sign (raises a note by a quarter tone)
>

In an actual proposal, I would expect a discussion of whether you are
proposing to encode established symbols, or whether you are proposing new
symbols to be adopted by the community (in which case Unicode would
probably wait & see if they get established).

A proposal should also show evidence of usage and glyph variations.

Best regards,
markus

preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

[Johnny Farraj via Unicode]

Dear Unicode list members,

I wish to get feedback about a new symbol submission proposal.

Currently the Miscellaneous Symbols table (2600-26FF) includes the
following characters:

266D ♭ MUSIC FLAT SIGN
266F ♯ MUSIC SHARP SIGN

while the Musical Symbols table (1D100 - 1D1FF) includes the following
characters:

1D12A 턪 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE SHARP
1D12B 턫 MUSICAL SYMBOL DOUBLE FLAT
1D12C 턬 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT UP
1D12D 턭 MUSICAL SYMBOL FLAT DOWN
1D130 터 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP UP
1D131 턱 MUSICAL SYMBOL SHARP DOWN
1D132 턲 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP
1D133 턳 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT

None of these matches what's used in Arabic music notation.

I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols
table:

- the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone)
- the half-sharp sign (raises a note by a quarter tone)

[image: Inline image]
[image: Inline image]


These are the correct symbols for Arabic music notation, and they express
intervals that are multiples of quarter tones. it would be really nice to
be able to include them directly in an HTML page or rich text document
using a native code rather than an image.

I am the primary sponsor of this proposal. As far as my credentials, I am
the owner of http://maqamworld.com, the most widely used online resource on
Arabic music theory, in English.

My co-sponsor is Sami Abu Shumays, author of http://maqamlessons.com,
another important online reference for Arabic music theory.

Together, we are in the process of publishing a book on Arabic music theory
and performance with Oxford University Press, coming out late 2018.

I can also enlist the support of many academics in the music theory field
who specialize in Arabic music.

I welcome any feedback on this proposal.

thanks

Johnny Farraj