Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Hi John, I realise this has made you cross, but I've also been responsible for keeping it in the Group here because I think it needs to be aired - for various reasons that I've explained before and won't rehash at length now. Lan has actually been the model of restraint and has not written much here about it, and has only written in response to questions by other people who also think it's something they want to discuss here. The price of the photograph is actually not really unfair, if you look into it. And it's not just the value of the photograph - there's an accepted premium element paid by someone who's used a photograph without permission, credit, payment. As for 1982 prices, they can't really be compared. Everything has shifted so much in the last 35 years, particularly in the media and in terms of cost of living and value of the dollar and a whole bunch of other things. Back then Heaven's Gate and Inchon were considered extravagantly expensive Hollywood movies, and cost $44 million and $50 million respectively, I think. Heaven's Gate brought down United Artists. Spiderman 3 (this year) cost about $260 million, I think. Plus then about the same again in marketing - making it a half billion dollar movie. Also, in 1982 a 2/3 bedroomed row house in a not-particularly-special street in West London where I live was worth somewhere between £40k and £60k ($80k and $120k). It's now worth between £550k and £650k ($1.1m and $1.3m). So a lot has changed. But anyway, the value of the photograph is not set by these things, it's set by the market - and in a situation like this, $1000 isn't, as you said, more than fair. Hope all this helps to explain :) Also, for context, read (the whole of - and comments on) Casey McKinnon's blog post here: http://www.caseymckinnon.com/blog/2007/07/10/podtech-needs-more-podtact/ Cheers, Rupert On 12 Jul 2007, at 01:53, John Coffey wrote: Back when 3 Mile Island happened I was in a photo class and the word on the street was that Time magazine paid $2000 for their cover shot (in 1982 dollars). Keep your ground Scoble! $1000 more than fair. John --- Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well it's been another week and a half since we've heard anything. Is this thing resolved yet? I'll check. Last I heard Furrier was willing to pay $1,000 and Bui wanted $3,000. Not sure if either of them have moved from those positions but it's very possible that this is headed to some sort of court unless one of them bends. For my part in it I'm sorry about the whole issue, it was caused by an employee who made a mistake and feels bad about it and was amplified by no follow through and making sure there was some sort of resolution to the issue. By the way, I've seen a few people say that PodTech is unresponsive on other issues, like sending out Vloggies. I have no idea who hasn't gotten Vloggies yet, but if anyone has any other issues with PodTech or me or still is owed a Vloggie my personal phone number is 425-205-1921 and you can call me anytime for any reason. Robert Scoble PodTech.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Jimmy CraicHead TVVideo Podcast about Sailing, Travel, Cocktails and other goodCraichttp://www.jchtv.com/ __ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Well, considering that it was used as an advertisement and not for criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research, I can't imagine a fair use argument could be made. - Verdi On 7/12/07, Laura Moncur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: After looking at the poster, I'm wondering if it doesn't fall into the fair use category. It was a faded background image and it wasn't the only photo on the poster. -- http://michaelverdi.com http://spinxpress.com http://freevlog.org Author of Secrets Of Videoblogging - http://tinyurl.com/me4vs
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Hi Daniel, I'm sorry to boringly stand up for the thread again, but I just feel that you're not quite on the money in what you say. Also, the way I read it, I found your tone was a little patronising. I know plenty of Old Business where things are hashed out in public by observers - the idea that we need to grow up instead of talking about the rights and wrongs of the issue has raised my hackles. And I'm sorry that this has been going on so long that people feel they need to be the voice of reason and try to stop it. I don't particularly think that people have been out of line or lynchmobbish in the way it's been discussed. I think almost everyone has handled it quite well. Lan is not the one bringing this up and keeping it bubbling. It's the rest of us, who are concerned about what Podtech did and the way they've behaved since. Rupert On 12 Jul 2007, at 19:52, danielmcvicar wrote: Hello Lan and everyone here on this thread. This sort of transparent hashing out of a business matter on line shows that there is some growing up to do with the new media. Lan, I appreciate your work, and am sorry that your photo was used without permission. It seems to me that Podtech had apologized and made a reasonable offer. I would accept it gracefully and move on. Your photo wasn't being used in a worldwide ad campaign. I understand that it was on a display at a convention attended by many of your peers. It wasn't your face plastered on a billboard, a redubbing of your video for a 900 sex number, your face on a lunchbox, or potato chips with your image on them. This happens too, by the way. I can tell you from personal experience. There is plenty of work for everyone to do without wasting energy on this. Settle, move on, make video, be happy. When you do that, you make me happy. I like your work as a media producer. Let's leave the lawyering to the lawyers, and get creative. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
danielmcvicar wrote: Your photo wasn't being used in a worldwide ad campaign. I understand that it was on a display at a convention attended by many of your peers. It wasn't your face plastered on a billboard, a redubbing of your video for a 900 sex number, your face on a lunchbox, or potato chips with your image on them. This happens too, by the way. I can tell you from personal experience. Daniel, It sounds like you are saying besides, your work was not that important. Are you suggesting that distribution numbers are the only factor in determining value? Markus -- Markus Sandy http://feeds.feedburner.com/apperceptions http://feeds.feedburner.com/digitaldojo http://feeds.feedburner.com/havemoneywillvlog http://feeds.feedburner.com/spinflow [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
On 7/12/07, Rupert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's the rest of us, who are concerned about what Podtech did and the way they've behaved since. Right. PodTech is a company that wants to work with independent / new-media producers ... its reasonable for a community of such producers to be concerned when such a company displays something less than full respect to OUR rights on OUR media. We're all eager to believe (I think) that this was a simple oversight on PodTechs part ... we're not (I don't think) trying to burn them at the stake for making a mistake ... but rather set some reasonable community expectations as to how such mistakes should be addressed/handled/settled going forward ... and having such issues drag out for SO LONG only to be left with a bottom line of look, Mr Independent producer, we're going to set the price for your media we already stole and used isn't really gonna cut it. You get to negotiate a price be if you do so BEFORE yo use it otherwise you (the guy who stole the content) SETTLE for a price. Pod tech needs to settle this and do right by Lan ... not the other way around. That doesn't mean they have to pay $3k (and Lan has already said he has been attempting to negotiate and sent multiple quotes) ... but they need to find a number that is MUTUALLY agreeable with the content producer. Hopefully they'll work it out and Lan will be able to report that behind the scenes they reached a settlement and he is happy with the result ... but until he can say that, a community that PodTech hopes to court has an understandable concern. And Lan has been pretty quiet on this all things considered. Its the rest of us that wont let it be :-P - Dave -- http://www.DavidMeade.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Well it's been another week and a half since we've heard anything. Is this thing resolved yet? I'll check. Last I heard Furrier was willing to pay $1,000 and Bui wanted $3,000. Not sure if either of them have moved from those positions but it's very possible that this is headed to some sort of court unless one of them bends. For my part in it I'm sorry about the whole issue, it was caused by an employee who made a mistake and feels bad about it and was amplified by no follow through and making sure there was some sort of resolution to the issue. By the way, I've seen a few people say that PodTech is unresponsive on other issues, like sending out Vloggies. I have no idea who hasn't gotten Vloggies yet, but if anyone has any other issues with PodTech or me or still is owed a Vloggie my personal phone number is 425-205-1921 and you can call me anytime for any reason. Robert Scoble PodTech.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
What is rude is you bringing this up into the group! --- Lan Bui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will be posting an update very soon (target is the end of the week). But, I do have to say my last post to this group must not have been clear. I did send an invoice for less than $3000. I'll also ask that we wait until I have posted my update to talk about it any more. I hope that doesn't sound rude. -Lan --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well it's been another week and a half since we've heard anything. Is this thing resolved yet? I'll check. Last I heard Furrier was willing to pay $1,000 and Bui wanted $3,000. Not sure if either of them have moved from those positions but it's very possible that this is headed to some sort of court unless one of them bends. For my part in it I'm sorry about the whole issue, it was caused by an employee who made a mistake and feels bad about it and was amplified by no follow through and making sure there was some sort of resolution to the issue. By the way, I've seen a few people say that PodTech is unresponsive on other issues, like sending out Vloggies. I have no idea who hasn't gotten Vloggies yet, but if anyone has any other issues with PodTech or me or still is owed a Vloggie my personal phone number is 425-205-1921 and you can call me anytime for any reason. Robert Scoble PodTech.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Jimmy CraicHead TVVideo Podcast about Sailing, Travel, Cocktails and other good Craichttp://www.jchtv.com/ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/
RE: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Back when 3 Mile Island happened I was in a photo class and the word on the street was that Time magazine paid $2000 for their cover shot (in 1982 dollars). Keep your ground Scoble! $1000 more than fair. John --- Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well it's been another week and a half since we've heard anything. Is this thing resolved yet? I'll check. Last I heard Furrier was willing to pay $1,000 and Bui wanted $3,000. Not sure if either of them have moved from those positions but it's very possible that this is headed to some sort of court unless one of them bends. For my part in it I'm sorry about the whole issue, it was caused by an employee who made a mistake and feels bad about it and was amplified by no follow through and making sure there was some sort of resolution to the issue. By the way, I've seen a few people say that PodTech is unresponsive on other issues, like sending out Vloggies. I have no idea who hasn't gotten Vloggies yet, but if anyone has any other issues with PodTech or me or still is owed a Vloggie my personal phone number is 425-205-1921 and you can call me anytime for any reason. Robert Scoble PodTech.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Jimmy CraicHead TVVideo Podcast about Sailing, Travel, Cocktails and other good Craichttp://www.jchtv.com/ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Hey John, It was me who started this thread and who has bumped it every couple of weeks. Others blogged about and twittered about it and got no response so I started a thread here. - Verdi
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Well it's been another week and a half since we've heard anything. Is this thing resolved yet? - Verdi
Vlogger Defense Fund * Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Hi, although not really set up to act as a slush fund to broker disputes between two parties within the community, I actually have established a fund for legal support for those independent media makers who find themselves in hot water, and I believe there is a tad over $3,000 in the account which will be overseen by the Free The Media Foundation which still needs to be established. But, yes, a legal fund for the collective good all of us is of crucial importance. When I was carted off to jail, I had no idea how I'd raise the funds for an appeal. Fortunately, my little pay-pal banner was rather productive and there was about $3,000 left-over to establish this fund for the next time such a situation strike. Josh On Jun 30, 2007, at 8:30 AM, bordercollieaustralianshepherd wrote: Make a mistake and own it? Priceless! My opinion and thoughts (for what that's worth) I missed a lot in this thread. Not likely I will be able to catch up either. So if I am repeating someone else's input it is truly a case of like minds thinking. Robert, you are a stand up guy. No doubt and big props to you. Lan, understand how you feel and do not find fault with your position. To quote Rodney King ... oh never mind. $300 is too low (considering this is after the fact) and $3000 is too high considering the limited use of the image and it's purpose. (Podtech may be a business, but we should lead by example too, we are suppose to be in this boat together). Solution (and certainly not the only): vlogger legal defense fund! How to do this? Podtech ponies up $1000.00 total which pays Lan $600.00 (double the lowest possible PRE use negotiated license fee) and opens a legal defense fund for video bloggers using the remaining $400 for the creation of this funds cost and a initial deposit. Lan can (if he chooses) donate any amount he sees fit to this fund. Seems like a nice way to make nice. I know that this means that guidelines, rules and a bunch of other stuff might need to be put into effect. Then again, this group seems to me at least, to be capable of expressing opinion that can be used to gauge under what circumstances funds would be disbursed. If a fund is set up, I would like to be the third person to contribute. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You told me on the phone that you did not want to negotiate. At least that's how I remember hearing it. Sorry if I heard wrong. You told me specifically that PodTech was not in position to negotiate. The problem is I'm getting in between you and John Furrier. John's mom died this week which is causing problems figuring out where things are. I'll get him to answer you. Regarding photo prices, I talked with photographers who work for Associated Press, Business Week and other magazines. I agree that we dropped the ball. No excuses there, but I wasn't involved back then and am trying to clean up a mess and having trouble getting it cleaned up because of John's mom's death. Robert Scoble ### From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lan Bui Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 10:51 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? Robert, thank you for finally coming out and saying something for PodTech to the community. First, I must say that your statement: He believes his work is worth that and believes that there isn't room for negotiation on this issue. Is a lie. One of the points in my blog post was that I wanted, at minimum, to be contacted to negotiate. In the last couple days I did negotiate down a lot less than $3000 and even sent an updated invoice for it. So how is this not negotiating on the issue? Remember we talked about this on the phone, so I'm not sure why you left that out. PodTech had the chance to ask to purchase a license to use the photograph before it was used, at which time they would be able to set the terms. That didn't happen. Now that they have used the photograph already, who should set the terms? I gave PodTech over a month to respond to my terms and they didn't. When it was just me that was involved PodTech didn't care. When others started to blog about it and it was giving them a bad name, then PodTech started to care. Remember, that blog post was up for about a month before others started take notice to it. So PodTech showed to me they don't care about me, they only care about their image in the public eye. Next, I am not Thomas Hawk. Wait... Thomas Hawk? I will be the professional and not discuss the prices that PodTech pays him. Remember Robert, you told me how much PodTech pays him and that reinforced my price even more! You also said: It was easy to see how a mistake was made
RE: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
You told me on the phone that you did not want to negotiate. At least that's how I remember hearing it. Sorry if I heard wrong. You told me specifically that PodTech was not in position to negotiate. The problem is I'm getting in between you and John Furrier. John's mom died this week which is causing problems figuring out where things are. I'll get him to answer you. Regarding photo prices, I talked with photographers who work for Associated Press, Business Week and other magazines. I agree that we dropped the ball. No excuses there, but I wasn't involved back then and am trying to clean up a mess and having trouble getting it cleaned up because of John's mom's death. Robert Scoble ### From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lan Bui Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 10:51 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? Robert, thank you for finally coming out and saying something for PodTech to the community. First, I must say that your statement: He believes his work is worth that and believes that there isn't room for negotiation on this issue. Is a lie. One of the points in my blog post was that I wanted, at minimum, to be contacted to negotiate. In the last couple days I did negotiate down a lot less than $3000 and even sent an updated invoice for it. So how is this not negotiating on the issue? Remember we talked about this on the phone, so I'm not sure why you left that out. PodTech had the chance to ask to purchase a license to use the photograph before it was used, at which time they would be able to set the terms. That didn't happen. Now that they have used the photograph already, who should set the terms? I gave PodTech over a month to respond to my terms and they didn't. When it was just me that was involved PodTech didn't care. When others started to blog about it and it was giving them a bad name, then PodTech started to care. Remember, that blog post was up for about a month before others started take notice to it. So PodTech showed to me they don't care about me, they only care about their image in the public eye. Next, I am not Thomas Hawk. Wait... Thomas Hawk? I will be the professional and not discuss the prices that PodTech pays him. Remember Robert, you told me how much PodTech pays him and that reinforced my price even more! You also said: It was easy to see how a mistake was made since usually people in the community who, when invited to an event we held usually give us photos that were snapped at our events for free I was not contacted... so how could there be a mistake regarding permission? I also never gave (if you meant sent in to PodTech) any photographs that this one could be mistaken for. You also said: it's easy to miss the copyright on Flickr Come on, that argument is weak. Putting something in the same place on every page on flickr makes it very easy to not miss. You said: I asked several professional photographers, the average fee was $300. and 3x what most professionals in the marketplace charge for this kind of work Please don't lie again. The $300 price point is for stock photography. I even asked John where you guys got $300 from and he said that is standard for a stock photograph. If there is a photograph with Casey McKinnon holding Vloggies in a stock photography book somewhere I would love to see it. The photograph that was chosen was chosen because it had great value. It is not stock photography and I am not a stock photographer. Ok, lastly. Lets say I accepted $1000. Wow that sounds like a lot of money to many people that aren't making money from their creative work. Well this issue is not about me making money. It is about setting a precedent. If we allow companies to steal work and only pay a standard small fee when they are discovered, what is the incentive for them not steal again? Is that what other companies should learn from this? Just take now and deal with it later if it ever comes up. And don't worry, it still won't cost more than if we paid up front. To anyone else reading this: I hope this clarifies and corrects Roberts post. -Lan www.LanBui.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com mailto:videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com , Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's what happened. An employee made a mistake. We recognize that a mistake was made. It was easy to see how a mistake was made since usually people in the community who, when invited to an event we held usually give us photos that were snapped at our events for free and it's easy to miss the copyright on Flickr. Thomas Hawk, for instance, takes lots of photos at our events and gives them to us for free since he's appreciative for the community work we do. We asked around what a photo like the one that we used by Lan Bui was worth. I asked several professional photographers, the average fee was $300. Lan was not commissioned
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
You see? Again. I'm sorry if you didn't read my last post - it was quite long, as usual. But for the good of your company, you *have* to stop this we're the wronged party and Lan is the bad guy, misleading you tack. And you have to stop saying things like it's easy to miss the copyright on Flickr. And generally stop putting yourselves in the position of the wronged party. It's not playing well. We've all been trying to tell you that and you're not listening. And saying Lan wants $3000 as if that's going to make everybody gasp in horror is not going to work, now, either. $300 is a stock image price. Not a price for an image as specific as that you used. And if Lan was somebody you did not know - a powerful industry photographer who had taken an image of a celebrity holding Oscars, which you'd used to advertise your commercial venture - you would pay a *MASSIVE* penalty for using it without permission. That's the accepted rules of the game. Find 'em and Read 'em. If I go onto Adobe Stock Images now, I can download a royalty free STOCK image at A4 (roughly US Letter) size for £339.00 - that's just under $700. That's for a stock image. I don't know who these photographers were that you spoke to, or how much they knew about the contents of the image you used... but as far as I'm concerned, they're just wrong. As for Lan being unwilling to negotiate... it doesn't sound like you've done much talking, frankly. We hear nothing from you, and all we hear from Lan is that he's been waiting 3 months. Have you really *tried* to negotiate. Or are you so convinced that his price is outrageous that you're just getting angry (wrongly, i think) and standing your ground? If you're offering $300 and no more, that's not really negotiating either. Think about it. Come on - I'll say it again: I like Podtech. You're good for the community and you're paying great people to make stuff. But just maybe try to see things from an outsider's perspective. This is costing you $$$ in PR. And not doing those people who produce vlogs for you much good either. They should be able to be very proud to be sponsored by Podtech. And the longer it goes on, the more expensive it gets for you. Rupert On 30 Jun 2007, at 04:25, Robert Scoble wrote: Here's what happened. An employee made a mistake. We recognize that a mistake was made. It was easy to see how a mistake was made since usually people in the community who, when invited to an event we held usually give us photos that were snapped at our events for free and it's easy to miss the copyright on Flickr. Thomas Hawk, for instance, takes lots of photos at our events and gives them to us for free since he's appreciative for the community work we do. We asked around what a photo like the one that we used by Lan Bui was worth. I asked several professional photographers, the average fee was $300. Lan was not commissioned to take photos and an employee made a mistake by using a photo and not making sure we had the rights to use it before using it. But Lan wants $3,000. We have offered Lan something between those two prices which we feel is fair ($1,000 is the price I saw offered by PodTech CEO John Furrier, which is more than 3x what most professionals in the marketplace charge for this kind of work). Lan wants $3,000. He believes his work is worth that and believes that there isn't room for negotiation on this issue. So we're at an impass. I'm personally sorry for the whole way this thing has been handled, though, and still would like to find a way to get the two parties to reach closure on this problem. I do want to make sure Lan gets compensated properly for his intellectual property, but we want to reach a fair price and one that's based on what professionals expect. Robert Scoble ### From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Meiser Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 1:58 P To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? Well... I'm glad people haven't resorted to name calling. Got to say, while I love podtech I'm a little disapointed at their response. The accussations about lan presenting a one sided story... is it his responsibility to present both sides? Is that even possible? And Scoble's negative conjecture about loosing money on the vloggies... is an unecissary and unwarranted resentful remark toward the whole community which reflects poorly on podtech. It is perhaps the thing that disturbs me most about this. Very disapointing. As for bringing up deaths in related people's families... very unforetunate remark. I don't know what other side to the story there is... The facts are this... Podtech used lan's photo... mistakes happen... noone here holds a grudge... but they've had more then enough time to resolve it and haven't. There's no need to drag the whole thing through
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
On 6/30/07, Lan Bui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PodTech had the chance to ask to purchase a license to use the photograph before it was used, at which time they would be able to set the terms. That didn't happen. Now that they have used the photograph already, who should set the terms? This to me is the bottom line. If a company wants to negotiate the price for a creative work, their only opportunity to do so is before they use it. Trying to say ah well we'll give you X after it's already been used without permission is not only unfair ... its probably not a very strong legal position. (IMNAL) If a company is going to use photos from flickr they should know how to look for the license icon on a flickr page. If they fail to do so its not the photograph owners fault. Lastly I'm having a hard time accepting the implied well anyone else would have just given us the photo because we're oh-so-loved and do so much for everyone angle .. even if thats true, saying it out loud kinda ruins it. :-P PodTech: Stop thinking of this as trying to pay what YOU feel the photo is worth (your opportunity to do that was before you used the photo), and start thinking of this as paying Lan for infringing on his copyright ... surely that is something you can understand is worth more than a stock photo (even if you cant for some reason understand that this photo is as well). - Dave -- http://www.DavidMeade.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Quirk, you an iconoclastic shitstirrer :) I haven't seen much vitriol. Given the occasional time this group's really lynched people (particularly corporations), I think everybody's been quite nice. Apart from one silly link to some shitty blog, everyone else has just been saying, 'Yo, What's going on? Why aren't you paying up? Why aren't you talking?'. And I think Lan's handled it really calmly, especially given that Podtech have appeared to imply that he's being dishonest with us somehow. Copyright is silly, yeah - IP is pretty silly, but at least it allows individuals to be paid for stuff they make. Since that's the way it has to be to avoid people being exploited (like having a Union for creativity), Creative Commons is just an attempt to do it all a bit more intelligently. And in my mind, your song being recorded and played by someone else is as different from someone composing and recording your face as a single image as it is from you being an actor in or director of a film or an author of text. Each have different authorship rights. Casey wasn't performing a creative work, and i assume she signed a release for Lan allowing him to use the image he took of her? Whether Podtech needed to contact or reward her somehow for being the face of their competition campaign is another matter. You wouldn't just be able to use, say, Kate Moss's face on an ad for a cosmetics product competition without her permission. But if you did, the photographer would also get paid. You said that if you put stuff online, you don't own it any more than you own the rainbow over your house... But this isn't really about ownership, is it? It's about someone getting someone else to do their work for them for free. Yeah, I don't particularly care about the copyright of my Twittervlog films, and I'm not using them to make a living - I'm happy for people to use them however - but if, say, Nokia used one of my films as a background for an N93 competition without asking, and i found out long after it was over, and i'd received no benefit from it in terms of links, attribution, new viewers and connecting with new people, i probably would not be totally cool with that. I'd say that they were cheeky c***s. (I hate starring out words, but I suppose I have to star out this one). If they'd used a *commercial* film of mine - something i'd created in order to be able to buy myself food, and not paid me for it, I'd feel even more strongly. I'd effectively be working for them for free, and even a small amount of money makes a much bigger difference to an individual than it does to a corporation. Anyway, that's what I think. Not that you'll ever read it, probably. Have a nice trip. Rupert http://twittervlog.blogspot.com/ http://www.twitter.com/ruperthowe/ http://feeds.feedburner.com/twittervlog/ On 29 Jun 2007, at 19:45, Adam Quirk, Wreck Salvage wrote: I've been surprised by all the vitriol. I'd have thought that Podtech would have built up a couple brownie points with y'all by now, what with their paying you real money, and hosting awards shows for us all to circle- jerk at. Maybe the lesson here is to get paid First? Once you put something online, you don't own it anymore than you can claim to own a rainbow hovering above your house. It's in the public consciousness, part of the firehose of experiences that we all consume, transitory experiences. I think especially in this case since it's a digital photo of Casey McKinnon, if anyone has a claim to some money it would be her. If someone else made a recording of a song I was playing, and royalties were to be paid for that recording, I'd likely be the one to receive them. But I wouldn't demand them. Something just sits wrong with me when I hear about people billing other people for services that they weren't hired to provide. Creative Commons is pretty silly, not as silly as traditional copyright, but pretty silly. I'm heading out of town now so I won't be able to respond to any shit slung my way for a while :) P.S. Lan, you're a badass photog, I'm glad I found your work via this mess. -Adam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
hi everybody, I've been lurking on this thread and watching this whole thing develop. I thought I might add my 2¢... Is US$3k unreasonable for this photo? We on this list don't know. I'm not in the field, but my wife is a commercial illustrator and I assume the markets work similarly. The price for usage is based on many factors that we don't have the specifics for. Mr. Bui isn't selling the photo, he's selling usage rights. Generally prices are negotiated around size of reproduction, exclusivity, distribution (how many eyeballs will see it), how many times it can be used, it what regions it can be used, etc, etc. We don't have any of these specifics so it's very hard to make a judgment on whether or not the price is reasonable. IMHO if what Mr. Bui is selling is the right to use this photo 1 time non-exclusively on this printed banner at the conference then 3k seems high to me. But, as he said, it's been used so he is now in the more powerful negotiating position. Having said that it would probably be best for everyone to resolve it using a mediator that knows the market and have both parties agree to abide by whatever price this mediator comes up with. Good luck to everyone involved :) On 6/30/07, Lan Bui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, I'm sorry about the miscommunication on negotiation. I only come to you now because you offered yourself, I never thought you were one to make executive decisions at PodTech (correct me if I'm wrong). I know John is someone that can make executive decisions. I know how hard it must be for him to deal with his mother death. It is a horrible time for me to be asking anything of him. I keep posting to the group in reply to posts, but I want to talk to John when he is ready; or talk to someone else that can make decisions for PodTech. -Lan www.LanBui.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You told me on the phone that you did not want to negotiate. At least that's how I remember hearing it. Sorry if I heard wrong. You told me specifically that PodTech was not in position to negotiate. The problem is I'm getting in between you and John Furrier. John's mom died this week which is causing problems figuring out where things are. I'll get him to answer you. Regarding photo prices, I talked with photographers who work for Associated Press, Business Week and other magazines. I agree that we dropped the ball. No excuses there, but I wasn't involved back then and am trying to clean up a mess and having trouble getting it cleaned up because of John's mom's death. Robert Scoble ### From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lan Bui Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 10:51 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? Robert, thank you for finally coming out and saying something for PodTech to the community. First, I must say that your statement: He believes his work is worth that and believes that there isn't room for negotiation on this issue. Is a lie. One of the points in my blog post was that I wanted, at minimum, to be contacted to negotiate. In the last couple days I did negotiate down a lot less than $3000 and even sent an updated invoice for it. So how is this not negotiating on the issue? Remember we talked about this on the phone, so I'm not sure why you left that out. PodTech had the chance to ask to purchase a license to use the photograph before it was used, at which time they would be able to set the terms. That didn't happen. Now that they have used the photograph already, who should set the terms? I gave PodTech over a month to respond to my terms and they didn't. When it was just me that was involved PodTech didn't care. When others started to blog about it and it was giving them a bad name, then PodTech started to care. Remember, that blog post was up for about a month before others started take notice to it. So PodTech showed to me they don't care about me, they only care about their image in the public eye. Next, I am not Thomas Hawk. Wait... Thomas Hawk? I will be the professional and not discuss the prices that PodTech pays him. Remember Robert, you told me how much PodTech pays him and that reinforced my price even more! You also said: It was easy to see how a mistake was made since usually people in the community who, when invited to an event we held usually give us photos that were snapped at our events for free I was not contacted... so how could there be a mistake regarding permission? I also never gave (if you meant sent in to PodTech) any photographs that this one could be mistaken for. You also said: it's easy to miss the copyright on Flickr Come on, that argument is weak. Putting something in the same place
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Howdy T. Whild, $3k isn't absurd, especially not for a professional photographer. Mostly it depends on what the photo is being licensced for, and what the photog has historically charged. In this case it looks like it was for a one-off or atleast very limited run banner... and I personally agree with you that it seems a little high. Unforetuneatly when the photo is used without permission then I think it's the photog's call. There fundamentally can't be negotiation after the fact. This is why maybe if Podtech and Lan can't agree what I would suggest is they both agree to have some party they both trust be the arbitrater. There's plenty of great people in this space they both know and can trust. -Mike On 6/30/07, T. Whid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi everybody, I've been lurking on this thread and watching this whole thing develop. I thought I might add my 2¢... Is US$3k unreasonable for this photo? We on this list don't know. I'm not in the field, but my wife is a commercial illustrator and I assume the markets work similarly. The price for usage is based on many factors that we don't have the specifics for. Mr. Bui isn't selling the photo, he's selling usage rights. Generally prices are negotiated around size of reproduction, exclusivity, distribution (how many eyeballs will see it), how many times it can be used, it what regions it can be used, etc, etc. We don't have any of these specifics so it's very hard to make a judgment on whether or not the price is reasonable. IMHO if what Mr. Bui is selling is the right to use this photo 1 time non-exclusively on this printed banner at the conference then 3k seems high to me. But, as he said, it's been used so he is now in the more powerful negotiating position. Having said that it would probably be best for everyone to resolve it using a mediator that knows the market and have both parties agree to abide by whatever price this mediator comes up with. Good luck to everyone involved :) On 6/30/07, Lan Bui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert, I'm sorry about the miscommunication on negotiation. I only come to you now because you offered yourself, I never thought you were one to make executive decisions at PodTech (correct me if I'm wrong). I know John is someone that can make executive decisions. I know how hard it must be for him to deal with his mother death. It is a horrible time for me to be asking anything of him. I keep posting to the group in reply to posts, but I want to talk to John when he is ready; or talk to someone else that can make decisions for PodTech. -Lan www.LanBui.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You told me on the phone that you did not want to negotiate. At least that's how I remember hearing it. Sorry if I heard wrong. You told me specifically that PodTech was not in position to negotiate. The problem is I'm getting in between you and John Furrier. John's mom died this week which is causing problems figuring out where things are. I'll get him to answer you. Regarding photo prices, I talked with photographers who work for Associated Press, Business Week and other magazines. I agree that we dropped the ball. No excuses there, but I wasn't involved back then and am trying to clean up a mess and having trouble getting it cleaned up because of John's mom's death. Robert Scoble ### From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lan Bui Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 10:51 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? Robert, thank you for finally coming out and saying something for PodTech to the community. First, I must say that your statement: He believes his work is worth that and believes that there isn't room for negotiation on this issue. Is a lie. One of the points in my blog post was that I wanted, at minimum, to be contacted to negotiate. In the last couple days I did negotiate down a lot less than $3000 and even sent an updated invoice for it. So how is this not negotiating on the issue? Remember we talked about this on the phone, so I'm not sure why you left that out. PodTech had the chance to ask to purchase a license to use the photograph before it was used, at which time they would be able to set the terms. That didn't happen. Now that they have used the photograph already, who should set the terms? I gave PodTech over a month to respond to my terms and they didn't. When it was just me that was involved PodTech didn't care. When others started to blog about it and it was giving them a bad name, then PodTech started to care. Remember, that blog post was up for about a month before others started take notice to it. So
RE: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
I'm with Carl. If we want to use crowd 'weight' wouldn't an email/blog/pr frenzy be more effective? also, just saying :) -- -Devlon http://devlonduthie.com | http://mefeedia.com | http://node-64.com/blog MSN: du.th.ied AIM: devlond -Original Message- From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl Weaver Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:02 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? I have a problem with raising money for Lan on the list. Yes, Lan deserves his fees (and 3 times that because of the infringement) but to raise it ourselves lets Podtech off the hook a little bit. Okay, so Lan is paid - why should Podtech cough up the dough then? I'm just sayin'... Carl Carl Weaver Photographer http://www.carlweaver.com http://www.camerasamurai.com - Photography education, news, tips and more http://dcmetrostories.com - DC Metro Stories: Stories about the people, places and events in the DC Metro area http://nextlifeintheafternoon.com - A Journey Through Thailand Michael Sullivan wrote: no comment except that i bet we could organize a little crowdfunding effort to pay lan before podtech does. care for some competition, podtech? lan, how much do we need to raise? Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Can we give this a rest for a week or two and see what happens? This group does some very cool things and discovers news worthy information all the time and this has the two side talking. It sounds like something is going to happen and that this will come to a settlement but I don't think that will happen untill after the 4th of July so can we pause for a little while, bring it back up later if we need to and move on to some fun stuff like What iPhone line is Steve Garfield standing in? or Why is Ask a Ninja going to Israel ? Tim Tim Street Creator/Executive Producer French Maid TV The Viral Video of How Tos by French Maids http://frenchmaidtv.com Subscribe for FREE on ahref=http://www.frenchmaidtv.com/itunes; target=_blankiTunes/a On Jun 29, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Devlon Duthie wrote: I'm with Carl. If we want to use crowd 'weight' wouldn't an email/blog/pr frenzy be more effective? also, just saying :) -- -Devlon http://devlonduthie.com | http://mefeedia.com | http://node-64.com/ blog MSN: du.th.ied AIM: devlond -Original Message- From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl Weaver Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:02 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? I have a problem with raising money for Lan on the list. Yes, Lan deserves his fees (and 3 times that because of the infringement) but to raise it ourselves lets Podtech off the hook a little bit. Okay, so Lan is paid - why should Podtech cough up the dough then? I'm just sayin'... Carl Carl Weaver Photographer http://www.carlweaver.com http://www.camerasamurai.com - Photography education, news, tips and more http://dcmetrostories.com - DC Metro Stories: Stories about the people, places and events in the DC Metro area http://nextlifeintheafternoon.com - A Journey Through Thailand Michael Sullivan wrote: no comment except that i bet we could organize a little crowdfunding effort to pay lan before podtech does. care for some competition, podtech? lan, how much do we need to raise? Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
I've been surprised by all the vitriol. I'd have thought that Podtech would have built up a couple brownie points with y'all by now, what with their paying you real money, and hosting awards shows for us all to circle-jerk at. Maybe the lesson here is to get paid First? Once you put something online, you don't own it anymore than you can claim to own a rainbow hovering above your house. It's in the public consciousness, part of the firehose of experiences that we all consume, transitory experiences. I think especially in this case since it's a digital photo of Casey McKinnon, if anyone has a claim to some money it would be her. If someone else made a recording of a song I was playing, and royalties were to be paid for that recording, I'd likely be the one to receive them. But I wouldn't demand them. Something just sits wrong with me when I hear about people billing other people for services that they weren't hired to provide. Creative Commons is pretty silly, not as silly as traditional copyright, but pretty silly. I'm heading out of town now so I won't be able to respond to any shit slung my way for a while :) P.S. Lan, you're a badass photog, I'm glad I found your work via this mess. -Adam On 6/29/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can we give this a rest for a week or two and see what happens? This group does some very cool things and discovers news worthy information all the time and this has the two side talking. It sounds like something is going to happen and that this will come to a settlement but I don't think that will happen untill after the 4th of July so can we pause for a little while, bring it back up later if we need to and move on to some fun stuff like What iPhone line is Steve Garfield standing in? or Why is Ask a Ninja going to Israel ? Tim Tim Street Creator/Executive Producer French Maid TV The Viral Video of How To's by French Maids http://frenchmaidtv.com Subscribe for FREE on ahref=http://www.frenchmaidtv.com/itunes target=_blankiTunes/a On Jun 29, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Devlon Duthie wrote: I'm with Carl. If we want to use crowd 'weight' wouldn't an email/blog/pr frenzy be more effective? also, just saying :) -- -Devlon http://devlonduthie.com | http://mefeedia.com | http://node-64.com/ blog MSN: du.th.ied AIM: devlond -Original Message- From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl Weaver Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:02 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? I have a problem with raising money for Lan on the list. Yes, Lan deserves his fees (and 3 times that because of the infringement) but to raise it ourselves lets Podtech off the hook a little bit. Okay, so Lan is paid - why should Podtech cough up the dough then? I'm just sayin'... Carl Carl Weaver Photographer http://www.carlweaver.com http://www.camerasamurai.com - Photography education, news, tips and more http://dcmetrostories.com - DC Metro Stories: Stories about the people, places and events in the DC Metro area http://nextlifeintheafternoon.com - A Journey Through Thailand Michael Sullivan wrote: no comment except that i bet we could organize a little crowdfunding effort to pay lan before podtech does. care for some competition, podtech? lan, how much do we need to raise? Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links -- Adam Quirk Wreck Salvage 551.208.4644 Brooklyn, NY http://wreckandsalvage.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Well... I'm glad people haven't resorted to name calling. Got to say, while I love podtech I'm a little disapointed at their response. The accussations about lan presenting a one sided story... is it his responsibility to present both sides? Is that even possible? And Scoble's negative conjecture about loosing money on the vloggies... is an unecissary and unwarranted resentful remark toward the whole community which reflects poorly on podtech. It is perhaps the thing that disturbs me most about this. Very disapointing. As for bringing up deaths in related people's families... very unforetunate remark. I don't know what other side to the story there is... The facts are this... Podtech used lan's photo... mistakes happen... noone here holds a grudge... but they've had more then enough time to resolve it and haven't. There's no need to drag the whole thing through the mud on either side... I just hope podtech and lan can resolve the issue so we can leave it quickly and quietly behind. I don't believe it's indicative of any larger issue... it's not like some printing company is selling prints of dozens of Lan's photos for hundreds of dollars each. It was an event to promote videobloggers. I'd hope because of that context Lan would accept an appology from Podtech but that's up to Lan. On a related note, perhaps this will provide some perspective. Some kids from Maryland got their yearbooks recently to find a slew of their facebook pictures in them. How's that for intellectual property theft? How would you have liked to recieve a yearbook only to find a bunch of your pictures from your blog in it? Makes a somewhat subtle duotone photo in the background of a banner seem like a relatively minor incident by comparison. Not to diminish the injustice to Lan, but there are worse things that could have happened. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070627/012707.shtml I hope the matter gets resolved quickly. The only shame here is that it hasn't been resolved already and was allowed to drag out. Group hug? :) -Mike mmeiser.com/blog mefeedia.com On 6/29/07, Adam Quirk, Wreck Salvage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been surprised by all the vitriol. I'd have thought that Podtech would have built up a couple brownie points with y'all by now, what with their paying you real money, and hosting awards shows for us all to circle-jerk at. Maybe the lesson here is to get paid First? Once you put something online, you don't own it anymore than you can claim to own a rainbow hovering above your house. It's in the public consciousness, part of the firehose of experiences that we all consume, transitory experiences. I think especially in this case since it's a digital photo of Casey McKinnon, if anyone has a claim to some money it would be her. If someone else made a recording of a song I was playing, and royalties were to be paid for that recording, I'd likely be the one to receive them. But I wouldn't demand them. Something just sits wrong with me when I hear about people billing other people for services that they weren't hired to provide. Creative Commons is pretty silly, not as silly as traditional copyright, but pretty silly. I'm heading out of town now so I won't be able to respond to any shit slung my way for a while :) P.S. Lan, you're a badass photog, I'm glad I found your work via this mess. -Adam On 6/29/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can we give this a rest for a week or two and see what happens? This group does some very cool things and discovers news worthy information all the time and this has the two side talking. It sounds like something is going to happen and that this will come to a settlement but I don't think that will happen untill after the 4th of July so can we pause for a little while, bring it back up later if we need to and move on to some fun stuff like What iPhone line is Steve Garfield standing in? or Why is Ask a Ninja going to Israel ? Tim Tim Street Creator/Executive Producer French Maid TV The Viral Video of How To's by French Maids http://frenchmaidtv.com Subscribe for FREE on ahref=http://www.frenchmaidtv.com/itunes target=_blankiTunes/a On Jun 29, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Devlon Duthie wrote: I'm with Carl. If we want to use crowd 'weight' wouldn't an email/blog/pr frenzy be more effective? also, just saying :) -- -Devlon http://devlonduthie.com | http://mefeedia.com | http://node-64.com/ blog MSN: du.th.ied AIM: devlond -Original Message- From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carl Weaver Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:02 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? I have a problem with raising money for Lan on the list. Yes, Lan deserves his fees (and 3 times that because
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
On 6/29/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can we give this a rest for a week or two and see what happens? H... This is from Lan's post on May 14th: After I returned home from SXSW I contacted Robert Scoble, hoping he could put me on touch with the right person to talk about this. He did; he forwarded my email to this person. After a couple emails back and forth with her I sent her an invoice for licensed use of the photograph. That was on March 20th. There was no reply for one week; I called and emailed again. No reply again, so again I both called and sent an email... and it has now been over a month and a half without a single reply since the invoice was sent. Seems like it's already been over 3 months. Shouldn't that be long enough to figure things out? - Verdi
RE: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Here's what happened. An employee made a mistake. We recognize that a mistake was made. It was easy to see how a mistake was made since usually people in the community who, when invited to an event we held usually give us photos that were snapped at our events for free and it's easy to miss the copyright on Flickr. Thomas Hawk, for instance, takes lots of photos at our events and gives them to us for free since he's appreciative for the community work we do. We asked around what a photo like the one that we used by Lan Bui was worth. I asked several professional photographers, the average fee was $300. Lan was not commissioned to take photos and an employee made a mistake by using a photo and not making sure we had the rights to use it before using it. But Lan wants $3,000. We have offered Lan something between those two prices which we feel is fair ($1,000 is the price I saw offered by PodTech CEO John Furrier, which is more than 3x what most professionals in the marketplace charge for this kind of work). Lan wants $3,000. He believes his work is worth that and believes that there isn't room for negotiation on this issue. So we're at an impass. I'm personally sorry for the whole way this thing has been handled, though, and still would like to find a way to get the two parties to reach closure on this problem. I do want to make sure Lan gets compensated properly for his intellectual property, but we want to reach a fair price and one that's based on what professionals expect. Robert Scoble ### From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Meiser Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 1:58 P To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? Well... I'm glad people haven't resorted to name calling. Got to say, while I love podtech I'm a little disapointed at their response. The accussations about lan presenting a one sided story... is it his responsibility to present both sides? Is that even possible? And Scoble's negative conjecture about loosing money on the vloggies... is an unecissary and unwarranted resentful remark toward the whole community which reflects poorly on podtech. It is perhaps the thing that disturbs me most about this. Very disapointing. As for bringing up deaths in related people's families... very unforetunate remark. I don't know what other side to the story there is... The facts are this... Podtech used lan's photo... mistakes happen... noone here holds a grudge... but they've had more then enough time to resolve it and haven't. There's no need to drag the whole thing through the mud on either side... I just hope podtech and lan can resolve the issue so we can leave it quickly and quietly behind. I don't believe it's indicative of any larger issue... it's not like some printing company is selling prints of dozens of Lan's photos for hundreds of dollars each. It was an event to promote videobloggers. I'd hope because of that context Lan would accept an appology from Podtech but that's up to Lan. On a related note, perhaps this will provide some perspective. Some kids from Maryland got their yearbooks recently to find a slew of their facebook pictures in them. How's that for intellectual property theft? How would you have liked to recieve a yearbook only to find a bunch of your pictures from your blog in it? Makes a somewhat subtle duotone photo in the background of a banner seem like a relatively minor incident by comparison. Not to diminish the injustice to Lan, but there are worse things that could have happened. http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070627/012707.shtml I hope the matter gets resolved quickly. The only shame here is that it hasn't been resolved already and was allowed to drag out. Group hug? :) -Mike mmeiser.com/blog mefeedia.com On 6/29/07, Adam Quirk, Wreck Salvage [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:quirk%40wreckandsalvage.com wrote: I've been surprised by all the vitriol. I'd have thought that Podtech would have built up a couple brownie points with y'all by now, what with their paying you real money, and hosting awards shows for us all to circle-jerk at. Maybe the lesson here is to get paid First? Once you put something online, you don't own it anymore than you can claim to own a rainbow hovering above your house. It's in the public consciousness, part of the firehose of experiences that we all consume, transitory experiences. I think especially in this case since it's a digital photo of Casey McKinnon, if anyone has a claim to some money it would be her. If someone else made a recording of a song I was playing, and royalties were to be paid for that recording, I'd likely be the one to receive them. But I wouldn't demand them. Something just sits wrong with me when I hear about people billing other people for services that they weren't hired to provide. Creative Commons is pretty silly, not as silly as traditional
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Any word on this yet? I'd love to hear PodTech say, yes, we made a mistake and are working on fixing it or we didn't do anything wrong and here's why or something at all. They've been pretty quiet about the whole thing. Which seems odd as I look up from what I'm typing and notice my copy of Naked Conversations on the bookshelf not 12 inches away. - Verdi
RE: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Lan, I saw the email that John sent to you. I thought it was fair - it's pretty obvious you're only presenting one side of the story to everyone. I wish I could be more transparent, but when it comes to legal issues I've learned that you've gotta be quiet and take whatever public abuse is going to come your way. But I haven't talked with John. His mom died and that complicated things cause he's been focused on family stuff this week. In our defense, we're paying tons of content providers all over the world and we lost a TON of money on Vloggies. We invested in the community and now are negotiating with you. Robert From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lan Bui Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:31 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? I am trying to be patient. Maybe while I wait for them I can read Naked Conversations, the back cover alone has very interesting ideas on it. -Lan www.LanBui.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com mailto:videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com , Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any word on this yet? I'd love to hear PodTech say, yes, we made a mistake and are working on fixing it or we didn't do anything wrong and here's why or something at all. They've been pretty quiet about the whole thing. Which seems odd as I look up from what I'm typing and notice my copy of Naked Conversations on the bookshelf not 12 inches away. - Verdi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Robert, Like I said before, I like Podtech and I think it's great that you're paying great people and spending (losing? is that what sponsorship is, now - a loss? ;) ) lots of money on the Vloggies. Which is why I'm amazed that Podtech hasn't communicated better here, to play nice with the community. You say that it's pretty obvious that Lan is only presenting one side of the story. That's not obvious to me, or to any of the other people i've seen who've commented on this. You say that you have to keep quiet and take abuse when it comes to legal issues. That's not absolutely true. You can tell the community that you can't speak about it for legal reasons but that it's more complicated than it appears, if that's true. You can even say, Hey, we're nice guys really - we didn't mean to use a picture without asking and we realise how bad that looks - but we're sorting it out privately with Lan. But you haven't done that. You've maintained silence, except for one email from John, directed just to Jay, which (as I wrote at the time) felt like it was saying Lan's a liar. We did what we do. I will not discuss it in public. Mind your own business. That's not keeping quiet and accepting abuse because you have to. That's just a weird approach to damage limitation and PR. Rupert On 28 Jun 2007, at 16:07, Robert Scoble wrote: Lan, I saw the email that John sent to you. I thought it was fair - it's pretty obvious you're only presenting one side of the story to everyone. I wish I could be more transparent, but when it comes to legal issues I've learned that you've gotta be quiet and take whatever public abuse is going to come your way. But I haven't talked with John. His mom died and that complicated things cause he's been focused on family stuff this week. In our defense, we're paying tons of content providers all over the world and we lost a TON of money on Vloggies. We invested in the community and now are negotiating with you. Robert From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lan Bui Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:31 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? I am trying to be patient. Maybe while I wait for them I can read Naked Conversations, the back cover alone has very interesting ideas on it. -Lan www.LanBui.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com mailto:videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com , Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any word on this yet? I'd love to hear PodTech say, yes, we made a mistake and are working on fixing it or we didn't do anything wrong and here's why or something at all. They've been pretty quiet about the whole thing. Which seems odd as I look up from what I'm typing and notice my copy of Naked Conversations on the bookshelf not 12 inches away. - Verdi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Oh my, Robert, you are not guilting this list with this are you? It's a business; if you didnt see some sort of value in paying these content providers, you guys wouldn't pay them! Don't turn it into altruism. Same with the Vloggies; if there wasn't some buzz for Podtech created around the Vloggies, you guys wouldn't have done it. The fact that you folks lost a ton of money is probably from bad planning and budgeting more than anything else. I like you Robert, but your point here just hit me the wrong way. It's smarmy and misguided. Do you blame Lan that Podtech burned through millions of dollars? Should we blame him for the Middle East conflict as well? You know how these things play out: Someone at Podtech screwed up with using the photo without permission, so company should pay for it somehow. Call it the Oops, I Screwed Up Tax. You either pay in the court of Public Opinion, or you just quietly pay Lan his due. At the end of the day, it's typical business! You know that. Schlomo http://schlomolog.blogspot.com http://weknowhow.tv http://winkshow.com http://hatfactory.net On 6/28/07, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In our defense, we're paying tons of content providers all over the world and we lost a TON of money on Vloggies. We invested in the community and now are negotiating with you. Robert From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com[mailto: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lan Bui Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:31 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? I am trying to be patient. Maybe while I wait for them I can read Naked Conversations, the back cover alone has very interesting ideas on it. -Lan www.LanBui.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com mailto:videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com , Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any word on this yet? I'd love to hear PodTech say, yes, we made a mistake and are working on fixing it or we didn't do anything wrong and here's why or something at all. They've been pretty quiet about the whole thing. Which seems odd as I look up from what I'm typing and notice my copy of Naked Conversations on the bookshelf not 12 inches away. - Verdi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Den 28.06.2007 kl. 23:06 skrev Roxanne Darling [EMAIL PROTECTED]: To infer all sorts of legal complications only confuses things, and keeps PodTech in the one down position publicly speaking. I think your point about the Vloggies being cash-negative might be relevant internally but came across just plain silly to me here on this list. Do you know what this is: Its the world's smallest violin playing just for PodTech. Loosing money on the Vloggies doesn't make PodTech into videoblog philanthropists. It just makes them really bad at budgetting. Want me to kiss you on the cheek and give you some milk and cookies? Oh, please. Regardless the amount of money you are throwing at other vloggers are totally irrelevant. You are still not paying Lan. He's trying to run a business, you like you. (so am I and I have never encountered behavious as insane as this) Unless PodTech is inferring Lan did not take the photograph in question (are you?) I fail to see what legal issues there could be. Be a man, PodTech. Just admit you fucked up and pay the man. If you had done this right away noone would have thought any less of you. It doesn't even make sense from a financial standpoint. You have already spent more money in man-hours trying to weasel yourself out of this situation (and it ain't working, yo). - Andreas -- Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen URL: http://www.solitude.dk/
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
. We invested in the community and now are negotiating with you. Robert From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com[mailto: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lan Bui Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 7:31 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? I am trying to be patient. Maybe while I wait for them I can read Naked Conversations, the back cover alone has very interesting ideas on it. -Lan www.LanBui.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com mailto:videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com , Michael Verdi michaelverdi@ wrote: Any word on this yet? I'd love to hear PodTech say, yes, we made a mistake and are working on fixing it or we didn't do anything wrong and here's why or something at all. They've been pretty quiet about the whole thing. Which seems odd as I look up from what I'm typing and notice my copy of Naked Conversations on the bookshelf not 12 inches away. - Verdi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -- Roxanne Darling o ke kai means of the sea in hawaiian 808-384-5554 http://www.twitter.com/roxannedarling http://www.beachwalks.tv http://www.barefeetshop.com http://www.barefeetstudios.com
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
finally decided to read this thread through. no comment except that i bet we could organize a little crowdfunding effort to pay lan before podtech does. care for some competition, podtech? lan, how much do we need to raise? in cc we hail, sull On 6/28/07, Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Den 28.06.2007 kl. 23:06 skrev Roxanne Darling [EMAIL PROTECTED]okekai%40gmail.com : To infer all sorts of legal complications only confuses things, and keeps PodTech in the one down position publicly speaking. I think your point about the Vloggies being cash-negative might be relevant internally but came across just plain silly to me here on this list. Do you know what this is: Its the world's smallest violin playing just for PodTech. Loosing money on the Vloggies doesn't make PodTech into videoblog philanthropists. It just makes them really bad at budgetting. Want me to kiss you on the cheek and give you some milk and cookies? Oh, please. Regardless the amount of money you are throwing at other vloggers are totally irrelevant. You are still not paying Lan. He's trying to run a business, you like you. (so am I and I have never encountered behavious as insane as this) Unless PodTech is inferring Lan did not take the photograph in question (are you?) I fail to see what legal issues there could be. Be a man, PodTech. Just admit you fucked up and pay the man. If you had done this right away noone would have thought any less of you. It doesn't even make sense from a financial standpoint. You have already spent more money in man-hours trying to weasel yourself out of this situation (and it ain't working, yo). - Andreas -- Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen URL: http://www.solitude.dk/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Jay, Lan portrays a completely different picture in public. We have been in communication with him since he contacted us months ago. Lan has had access to PodTech in many different ways from 1 degree of separation to having our direct phone numbers and emails. He has not been treated badly but in fact we have been in contact with him from the beginning. John From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay dedman Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 8:53 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? This smells like so much Business As Usual, that its a perfect news piece for a Monday at the office all the way down to the typical buck-passing to Podtech's accounting dept. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There are a bunch of people on this list who get funding from Podtech-- is this a typical reflection of how they work? ryanishungry.com content partners for Podtech where we've license our videos to them for a year. our experience with Podtech has been totally hands off. we make the video, they keep up their end of the bargain. No problems at all. Ive talked to Lan about Podtech using his photo without permission, and the treatment he's received since. It's superbad way to treat people, especially really noisy bloggers in a tight community. And the money involved is minuscule compared to what they have. The lack of communication is a real problem. podtech needs to join the conversation. Jay -- Here I am http://jaydedman.com Check out the latest project: http://politicalvideo.org 500 hours of George Bush speeches!! Search, download, remix!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
John, There is nothing to talk about. Just pay the bill Lan sent you. This sort of stuff happens routinely at every media house in the world and they have policies in place to deal with it (i.e. pay up). You guys made a mistake, we all do from time to time. Just pay the man what you owe him and move on with your life. If this has been going on for months it's a disgrace. - Andreas Den 19.06.2007 kl. 15:23 skrev John Furrier [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jay, Lan portrays a completely different picture in public. We have been in communication with him since he contacted us months ago. Lan has had access to PodTech in many different ways from 1 degree of separation to having our direct phone numbers and emails. He has not been treated badly but in fact we have been in contact with him from the beginning. John From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay dedman Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 8:53 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? This smells like so much Business As Usual, that its a perfect news piece for a Monday at the office all the way down to the typical buck-passing to Podtech's accounting dept. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There are a bunch of people on this list who get funding from Podtech-- is this a typical reflection of how they work? ryanishungry.com content partners for Podtech where we've license our videos to them for a year. our experience with Podtech has been totally hands off. we make the video, they keep up their end of the bargain. No problems at all. Ive talked to Lan about Podtech using his photo without permission, and the treatment he's received since. It's superbad way to treat people, especially really noisy bloggers in a tight community. And the money involved is minuscule compared to what they have. The lack of communication is a real problem. podtech needs to join the conversation. Jay -- Here I am http://jaydedman.com Check out the latest project: http://politicalvideo.org 500 hours of George Bush speeches!! Search, download, remix!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -- Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen URL: http://www.solitude.dk/
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
So everything's all right, then, is it? Lan's been paid, his copyright respected and an apology given for the unintentional oversight? Pity we didn't hear that in Podtech's public announcement there. I guess John was responding just to Jay's comment that The lack of communication is a real problem. For me, the real problem is that Lan - an individual artist - has been kept waiting for payment by a company that apparently has money in the bank, after they apparently used his image without permission. Being a freelancer waiting on an invoice from someone who can easily pay it is bad enough - and typical business practice for many big companies, unfortunately - but waiting on payment after the company has already wronged you, is about as annoying as it gets. Perhaps there's a reason they're not paying - maybe since they first agreed to pay, Podtech has decided they have legal issues with Lan's claim and are working these out with their lawyers. But not to say that here, and just to say There's not a problem - we've been talking since the beginning. is a bit naive, to put it politely. This was their PR opportunity to say, We didn't intend to... blah blah blah... we will pay as soon as... blah blah blah... we are sorry for our... blah blah blah... we share your values and are good guys, yours in internet love, blah. - or, if they're not intending to pay, to say There are legal reasons we haven't paid that I can't go into here, but I'm sorry if it appears blah blah blah I mean, not everybody would immediately believe that they're knights in shining armor - but that's what you say, right? It shows you want to mean well, even if your corporate policy is sometimes in conflict with that. But to me, what he just wrote felt more like, Lan's a liar. We did what we do. I will not discuss it in public. Mind your own business. I just edited out the bad language from that sentence. The sad thing is, I like Podtech - I think they're all right, generally. Maybe they just need to smarten up their awareness of public perception online and pay their bills a bit quicker. That's the great advantage of the internet for both sides. Individuals get to air their grievances if they feel badly treated, and the other side gets to answer back. Contrast with your options in the old days: Steve, the CFO at my last company told me a story about when he was working for Philip Morris (i think) as head of credit control. A small businessman that they owed money for months and months turned up, got through security somehow, walked up to Steve's desk and put his baby on it. There, he said, you fuckin' feed her - 'cause I can't. He said he's never written a cheque so fast in his life :) Rupert http://twittervlog.blogspot.com/ http://www.twitter.com/ruperthowe/ http://feeds.feedburner.com/twittervlog/ On 19 Jun 2007, at 14:23, John Furrier wrote: Jay, Lan portrays a completely different picture in public. We have been in communication with him since he contacted us months ago. Lan has had access to PodTech in many different ways from 1 degree of separation to having our direct phone numbers and emails. He has not been treated badly but in fact we have been in contact with him from the beginning. John From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay dedman Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 8:53 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? This smells like so much Business As Usual, that its a perfect news piece for a Monday at the office all the way down to the typical buck-passing to Podtech's accounting dept. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There are a bunch of people on this list who get funding from Podtech-- is this a typical reflection of how they work? ryanishungry.com content partners for Podtech where we've license our videos to them for a year. our experience with Podtech has been totally hands off. we make the video, they keep up their end of the bargain. No problems at all. Ive talked to Lan about Podtech using his photo without permission, and the treatment he's received since. It's superbad way to treat people, especially really noisy bloggers in a tight community. And the money involved is minuscule compared to what they have. The lack of communication is a real problem. podtech needs to join the conversation. Jay -- Here I am http://jaydedman.com Check out the latest project: http://politicalvideo.org 500 hours of George Bush speeches!! Search, download, remix!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
On 6/19/07, John Furrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have been in communication with him since he contacted us months ago. Lan has had access to PodTech in many different ways from 1 degree of separation to having our direct phone numbers and emails. He has not been treated badly but in fact we have been in contact with him from the beginning. John John, This concerns us because it seems to be part of our larger struggle to have our Creative Commons licenses respected. So far, I've seen two short notes by PodTech people on this, yours, and a line from Scoble that there is more to the story. Neither address the questions, did you use the image without permission and if so, what are you doing about it? It would be really helpful if you could just answer those points. - Verdi
RE: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Even better, my cell phone is on my blog. 425-205-1921. Robert Scoble ### From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of bordercollieaustralianshepherd Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:43 AM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image? How to Contact Podcast. http://www.podtech.net/home/about#contact PodTech Network is located at: 1801 Page Mill Rd - Suite 400 Palo Alto, CA 94304 Tel: 650-543-5200 Media Speaking Opportunities: Please contact Valerie Cunningham at Valerie at [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:media%40podtech.net . Use the directory option when calling. To enter the last name use this handy decoder: C=2, U=8, N=6, N=6, No answer? Leave a polite message. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com mailto:videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com , Michael Verdi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.lanbui.com/blog/2007/05/creative-commons-podtechnet-doesnt.html -- http://michaelverdi.com http://spinxpress.com http://freevlog.org Author of Secrets Of Videoblogging - http://tinyurl.com/me4vs [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
Den 19.06.2007 kl. 19:07 skrev Mike Moon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My question is... What was the value of the invoice? The reason I think it's important to know, is that if it's for stupid money, I would have cut ties too. It's one thing to send them an invoice for a couple hundred bucks and yet another to send them one for $38gabillion. I assume it was for a reasonable amount, but it helps make a level headed decision on what the outcome should be. Lan is a professional photographer, I think you can safely assume that the price he charged is reasonable. -- Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen URL: http://www.solitude.dk/
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
yes, scoble knows On 6/18/07, David Howell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I assume that Scoble knows what's going on with this however he is refusing to say anything online about it... http://blogumentary.typepad.com/chuck/2007/06/podtech_please_.html#comments Ah what a wicked web we weave... I'm a gittin some popcorn to watch this one play out! David http://www.davidhowellstudios.com --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com, schlomo rabinowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This smells like so much Business As Usual, that its a perfect news piece for a Monday at the office all the way down to the typical buck-passing to Podtech's accounting dept. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There are a bunch of people on this list who get funding from Podtech-- is this a typical reflection of how they work? Schlomo http://schlomolog.blogspot.com http://weknowhow.tv http://winkshow.com http://hatfactory.net --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.comvideoblogging%40yahoogroups.com, Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen solitude@ wrote: Den 18.06.2007 kl. 19:58 skrev Michael Verdi michaelverdi@: http://www.lanbui.com/blog/2007/05/creative-commons-podtechnet-doesnt.html Collections agency then Small claims court Fucking morons. Lan, I hoped you marked up your regular prices to account for them being assholes when you sent your invoice. As Tim points out in the comments PodTech needs permission for Casey as well (this isn't a news story, but regular advertising). -- Andreas Haugstrup Pedersen URL: http://www.solitude.dk/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] -- http://geekentertainment.tv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: Hey PodTech - What's up with Lan's image?
This smells like so much Business As Usual, that its a perfect news piece for a Monday at the office all the way down to the typical buck-passing to Podtech's accounting dept. The more things change, the more they stay the same. There are a bunch of people on this list who get funding from Podtech-- is this a typical reflection of how they work? ryanishungry.com content partners for Podtech where we've license our videos to them for a year. our experience with Podtech has been totally hands off. we make the video, they keep up their end of the bargain. No problems at all. Ive talked to Lan about Podtech using his photo without permission, and the treatment he's received since. It's superbad way to treat people, especially really noisy bloggers in a tight community. And the money involved is minuscule compared to what they have. The lack of communication is a real problem. podtech needs to join the conversation. Jay -- Here I am http://jaydedman.com Check out the latest project: http://politicalvideo.org 500 hours of George Bush speeches!! Search, download, remix!!
