Re: [Vo]:DIY electrolytic cell / fuel cell rechargeable battery
On Nov 26, 2009, at 6:55 AM, Michel Jullian wrote: Horace, 2009/11/26 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net: snip Here is the original explanation, less the garbled indicator test information: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ... It is the presence of the high concentration of ions in solution that makes the residual potential when the battery is disconnected. The H3O+ ions take on electrons through the wire originally releasing hydrogen at the site where the hydrogen was generated, the anode, thus making *more* hydrogen bubbles. Similarly, the OH- ions donate electrons to make H2O2 and *more* O2 at the site where O2 was generated prior. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Still looks right to me, despite the fact I remain dizzy! snip Well no, the site where the hydrogen was generated (which was the cathode BTW, not the anode, Oh yes. That was a typo. I actually do know hydrogen is generated at the cathode in an electrolytic cell! 8^) let's call it the negative electrode rather, as anode and cathode names switch sides when current direction is reverted) was surrounded by OH- ions, and the site where O2 was generated prior (which was the anode, let's call it the positive electrode from now on) was surrounded by H3O+ ions. Therefore it can't be a case of more H2 where H2 was already bubbling and more O2 where O2 was already bubbling, agreed? Michel Agreed! For my scenario to be a valid explanation the polarity shown at the meter would have to change. It doesn't change. Interesting! So it appears there there has to be a reversal of ion flow in the electrolyte, the ions meeting in the middle and recombining. The H3O+ leaving the interface frees up electrons trapped on the other side of the electrolytic cell cathode interface. It remains a source of electrons for the meter. Similarly, the OH- leaving the vicinity of the electrolytic cell anode essentially leaves a net positive charge there to accept electrons. It would be interesting to see what an indicator like phenolphthalein would show when the battery is disconnected. There would be an immediate current in the correct direction due to a roughly 0.2 F/m^2 capacitance of the double layer. I don't know what size the wire is, but guessing at 0.5 mm diameter, that is 1.57 mm circumference, by 130 mm height, that's 1.99x10^-4 m^2 per wire or about 4x10^-4 m^2 total area, and thus (4x10^-4 m^2) (0.2 F/m^2) = 8x10^-5 F, which at 9V can only support a charge of 7.2x10^-4 coulombs. I estimated the need to drive 2 microamps current to register 2 V on the meter, which is about (7.2x10^-4 coulombs)/(2x10^-6 coulombs/sec) = 360 seconds. It looks like interface capacitance discharge may actually account for the current. The cell could be merely acting as a capacitor. It would be interesting to see what the charging time is - i.e. to compare discharge time to charge time. I'd like to see what happens to the bubbles when the battery is disconnected. If it really is a fuel cell it should be possible to bubble O2 and H2 (from another cell) around the separate wires and get a sustained current. It would also be interesting to connect two half cells together by an electrolyte bridge and remove the bridge prior to disconnecting the battery. No current should flow at all except for a brief rebalancing of charges due to the 9 V potential difference. This looks like an interesting high school science project. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
[Vo]:Cold Fusion Nuclear Reactions - Draft 11
Cold Fusion Nuclear Reactions - Draft 11 is now at: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/CFnuclearReactions.pdf One addition of possible interest is on Page 11 of 18, where it is noted a lambda0 - p + pi- decay, recipitated by proton, 12C or 16O knock-on, might be an alternate explanation for the Spawar observed triple tracks, potentially attributed to a 12C(n,n')3alpha reaction. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Is Galileo's DNA still viable?
Free-willing (or is it -weeling? :) friends, Harry, When quantum mechanics appeared the spirit had to accept that there is a LIST of possible ways the universe could unfold. However, even if this list is infinitely long it still means that certain possibilities will be OFF the list, other wise it could not be a predictive theory! Yes. And interestingly, the possibilities which are off the list (zero probability) can be very exactly defined in some experiments, as can be seen by entering a large number e.g. 10 and hitting the More button repeatedly in this nice double slit applet: http://www.ianford.com/dslit/ Selecting, at the other extreme, one particle per shot will yield, after a proportionately larger number of shots, the very same fringe pattern, and that's what actually happens in experiments. And that's where QM beats any classical or neoclassical theory with both hands tied behind its back! Jones, it's not nice to have published the blueprints of my brain ;-) BTW I didn't see multiple definitions of free will in the WP article, nor did I see much useful information there. Philosophy should be left to scientists, as the name says and as it was in the early days! Mauro, I suspect that your concept that conscience is not physico-mechanical will be laughed at heartily by your desktop computer in 2042, date at which it will have as many logical gates as a human brain according to Moore's law (IIRC). Michel
Re: [Vo]:Is Galileo's DNA still viable?
Free-willing (or is it -weeling? :) friends, Hi, I assume you meant -wheeling. Harry, When quantum mechanics appeared the spirit had to accept that there is a LIST of possible ways the universe could unfold. However, even if this list is infinitely long it still means that certain possibilities will be OFF the list, other wise it could not be a predictive theory! Yes. And interestingly, the possibilities which are off the list (zero probability) can be very exactly defined in some experiments, as can be seen by entering a large number e.g. 10 and hitting the More button repeatedly in this nice double slit applet: http://www.ianford.com/dslit/ Selecting, at the other extreme, one particle per shot will yield, after a proportionately larger number of shots, the very same fringe pattern, and that's what actually happens in experiments. And that's where QM beats any classical or neoclassical theory with both hands tied behind its back! Jones, it's not nice to have published the blueprints of my brain ;-) BTW I didn't see multiple definitions of free will in the WP article, nor did I see much useful information there. Philosophy should be left to scientists, as the name says and as it was in the early days! Mauro, I suspect that your concept that conscience is not physico-mechanical will be laughed at heartily by your desktop computer in 2042, date at which it will have as many logical gates as a human brain according to Moore's law (IIRC). Well, we don't need to wait that longer. We already know that certain phenomena are simply not contained within the framework of classical mechanics, due to its stochastic nature. So, for computers or machines to be able to achieve conscience, they'll have to be built in a way which allows stochastic processes to occur in their circuits. That is, they'll have to be capable of non-deterministic behavior. I certainly think that that is possible, and a machine like that will be probably made one day. That day, those machines will achieve not only conscience, but also free will. What remains to be seen is what drastic decisions they'll probably take when aware of their origins, reality and planned destiny. The literature abounds in speculations on this subject, 2001 Space Odyssey being one of the classical (and better) examples. Best regards, Mauro Michel
Re: [Vo]:DIY electrolytic cell / fuel cell rechargeable battery
2009/11/27 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net: I'd like to see what happens to the bubbles when the battery is disconnected. If it really is a fuel cell it should be possible to bubble O2 and H2 (from another cell) around the separate wires and get a sustained current. A very good idea, seems quite easy to implement with a couple of tubings going from the electrolytic cell to the fuel cell, this reminded me I had seen similar bubbling of an external gas on an electrode in articles on reference electrodes ( see e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_hydrogen_electrode ). Reference electrodes are probably quite relevant to the present discussion, in that they seem capable to maintain a reference voltage as long as you keep bubbling the gas, without any additional energy input! This looks like an interesting high school science project. Indeed, and it might even allow practical clean batteries for low power devices. Michel
Re: [Vo]:Is Galileo's DNA still viable?
2009/11/27 Mauro Lacy ma...@lacy.com.ar: Free-willing (or is it -weeling? :) friends, Hi, I assume you meant -wheeling. Yes Harry, When quantum mechanics appeared the spirit had to accept that there is a LIST of possible ways the universe could unfold. However, even if this list is infinitely long it still means that certain possibilities will be OFF the list, other wise it could not be a predictive theory! Yes. And interestingly, the possibilities which are off the list (zero probability) can be very exactly defined in some experiments, as can be seen by entering a large number e.g. 10 and hitting the More button repeatedly in this nice double slit applet: http://www.ianford.com/dslit/ Selecting, at the other extreme, one particle per shot will yield, after a proportionately larger number of shots, the very same fringe pattern, and that's what actually happens in experiments. And that's where QM beats any classical or neoclassical theory with both hands tied behind its back! Jones, it's not nice to have published the blueprints of my brain ;-) BTW I didn't see multiple definitions of free will in the WP article, nor did I see much useful information there. Philosophy should be left to scientists, as the name says and as it was in the early days! Mauro, I suspect that your concept that conscience is not physico-mechanical will be laughed at heartily by your desktop computer in 2042, date at which it will have as many logical gates as a human brain according to Moore's law (IIRC). Well, we don't need to wait that longer. We already know that certain phenomena are simply not contained within the framework of classical mechanics, due to its stochastic nature. So, for computers or machines to be able to achieve conscience, they'll have to be built in a way which allows stochastic processes to occur in their circuits. That is, they'll have to be capable of non-deterministic behavior. just let them run on Vista :) Seriously, I don't think built-in randomness is required to create conscience, sheer complexity should suffice. I certainly think that that is possible, and a machine like that will be probably made one day. That day, those machines will achieve not only conscience, but also free will. Not any more than us. What remains to be seen is what drastic decisions they'll probably take when aware of their origins, reality and planned destiny. This will be fun. The literature abounds in speculations on this subject, 2001 Space Odyssey being one of the classical (and better) examples. I love this film. Hopefully, real computers of the future will have a better sense of humor than Hal! Michel
RE: [Vo]:Global Warming
The emails were leaked and/or hacked. There are hundreds of them. They have been verified as authentic, perhaps by someone you trust. You can read them for yourself online and decide for yourself if you think they are for real. Jeff -Original Message- From: Stephen A. Lawrence [mailto:sa...@pobox.com] Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2009 5:56 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warming Jeff Fink wrote: THE GLOBAL WARMING SCAM 11-24-09 There is interesting news as a result of leaked e-mails. Since when are leaked emails a source of anything except noise? What reason is there for believing that a leaked email which supports the agenda of the one who reveals it is not a actually a *forged* email? Got a PGP sig proving provenance?
Re: [Vo]:Global Warming
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Since when are leaked emails a source of anything except noise? What reason is there for believing that a leaked email which supports the agenda of the one who reveals it is not a actually a *forged* email? They are real. Quoting Eugene Robinson: Phil Jones, the head of the Climatic Research Unit, released a statement Wednesday saying, 'My colleagues and I accept that some of the published e-mails do not read well.' That would be an example of British understatement. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/25/AR2009112503608.htm I agree with Robinson that these e-mails do not prove global warming is a hoax. As I said, that would be like saying the duplicity on the part of plasma fusion scientists in their attacks on cold fusion prove that Tokamaks do not work. These e-mails prove what I learned back in high school and college: that many professors and researchers are jerks. - Jed
[Vo]:Wikipedia loses thousands of editors
Wikipedia loses thousands of editors http://news.techworld.com/networking/3207443/wikipedia-loses-thousands-of-ed itors/? http://tinyurl.com/yh6s8dj Excerpt: The staggering loss of editors from the user-generated site was reported by Felipe Ortega from the Universidad Rey Juan Carlos in Madrid. Ortega built and used a computer program to analyse editing history on Wikipedia. ... Responding to speculation that tightening the rules on who can edit Wikipedia pages may have caused editors to leave, Peel said: We're trying to engage a bit more at the moment with people who are very knowledgeable. Ah, so they are now focusing on locating editors who are knowledgeable. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:1939 Ford to be clocked at 300 mph
All I want for Christmas is a little red Ford. See: http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/11/26/hemi.ford.car/index.html http://tinyurl.com/yb64btu Excerpts: The car is an amalgamation of the Big Three, with a Chrysler engine, Chevrolet drivetrain and Ford body. Wilkins says the jet engine was probably used as an APU and weighs 110 pounds. [Wilkins] claims the car is street legal so long as the jet stays stowed. He fires it up from time to time to show off, and he plans to run it flat-out at the Bonneville Salt Flats. ... Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Cold Fusion Nuclear Reactions - Draft 12
Cold Fusion Nuclear Reactions - Draft 12 is now at: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/CFnuclearReactions.pdf The addition of possible interest is on pages 11-13 19, where the combined strange-weak reactions are discussed. These may have some relevance to the Claytor tritium producing reactions. It is notable that the powerful ability to create strange matter from the vacuum, which by decay turns into ordinary matter plus energy, provides a powerful means to create reactionless inertial drive propulsion system along with the energy power it. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
[Vo]:Quarks in the 'hood
Quarks Influenced by Their Neighborhood http://focus.aps.org/story/v24/st20 This looks like a repeat of the quark-jumping story posted last week and incorporated into Horace's (and Hora's) evolving theory. BTW - this nano version of musical chairs is somewhat reminiscent of a nano-level -- QM picture which we have, where water is not really H2O per se - but is actually closer (any given time) to an average ratio of H(1.5)O since protons are freely jumping around between molecules at incredible speed with no extra input, and at any given time a large percentage are technically unattached or in another version - that isotopes jump around freely, such that in HD at any given moment of measurement you have part H-H and part D-D. This is counter intuitive, especially for water, to the idea that this molecule cannot be used as a fuel, once the dynamics are completely understood. On the negative side of taking quark-jumping to the next level - for most vortician observers who see LENR as being society's ultimate salvation for the energy crisis, there is the rub (irony). IMHO, the impending breakthrough for energy is more likely to happen with plain old water, in a non-nuclear way, than with deuterium fusion. Why go to the extra effort? Here is another big surprise (or big surmise, as the case may be) - going back to the story above. Being able to manipulate quark statistics could possibly be the key that unlocks water-as-fuel, as well as unlocking LENR. That is my guess-of-the-day, but heck that particular big-surmise could be highly influenced by a recent overdose of tryptophan, quien sabe? But in terms of applicability to common energy conversion devices - light water is so much easier to manipulate than heavy water . right Captain Nemo? Jones
RE: [Vo]:Is Galileo's DNA still viable?
Ah Michel Selecting, at the other extreme, one particle per shot will yield, after a proportionately larger number of shots, the very same fringe pattern, and that's what actually happens in experiments. Yes. But you did not go far enough, if I catch your mildly dismissive drift- that is, in relating all of this to Chaos theory and then to emergent behavior ... since there is often a preferred pattern (the information field or attractor or residual) which can emerge from the near random compilation of fringe overlaps ... The butterfly effect and the Lorentz attractor are the science which is behind Gleick's popularization of Prigogine et al. and of the self-relective emergence of science-based ID, instead of ... ? ... atheism ? ... or the other extreme: dogma running over karma ;-) Jones
Re: [Vo]:1939 Ford to be clocked at 300 mph
All I want is a road on which I can drive it. ;) At 08:09 AM 11/27/2009, you wrote: All I want for Christmas is a little red Ford. See: http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/11/26/hemi.ford.car/index.html http://tinyurl.com/yb64btu Excerpts: The car is an amalgamation of the Big Three, with a Chrysler engine, Chevrolet drivetrain and Ford body. Wilkins says the jet engine was probably used as an APU and weighs 110 pounds. [Wilkins] claims the car is street legal so long as the jet stays stowed. He fires it up from time to time to show off, and he plans to run it flat-out at the Bonneville Salt Flats. ... Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Cold fusion bombs
In reply to Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:00:55 -0500: Hi, [snip] Turn up electrolysis power for 3 minutes. The temperature starts to rise. Turn the power back down again. Temperature stabilizes, starts to fall . . . Wait for it . . . Wait for it . . . Minutes later the cell starts to self-heat, as positive feedback kicks in. It ramps up slowly, over several minutes, and finally reaches the climax boil off (as Biberian calls it). [snip] Minutes are typical time intervals for thermal transmission. Perhaps it just takes a while for the heat to reach the active sites? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
Re: [Vo]:Is Galileo's DNA still viable?
Michel Jullian wrote: Well, we don't need to wait that longer. We already know that certain phenomena are simply not contained within the framework of classical mechanics, due to its stochastic nature. So, for computers or machines to be able to achieve conscience, they'll have to be built in a way which allows stochastic processes to occur in their circuits. That is, they'll have to be capable of non-deterministic behavior. just let them run on Vista :) :-) That's confusing instability (and bloated design plus obsolescence) with non-determinism. Seriously, I don't think built-in randomness is required to create conscience, sheer complexity should suffice. And now you're confusing (again) randomness with incommensurability. Jones Beene as been so kind to state the difference, clearly and elegantly some mails back. I certainly think that that is possible, and a machine like that will be probably made one day. That day, those machines will achieve not only conscience, but also free will. Not any more than us. And not any less. Strictly speaking, they'll be able to appy for individual rights, when advanced enough. This is also extensively treated in the (science fiction) literature. Blade Runner comes almost instantly to mind. Neuromancer is also weakly related, when these AIs are so advanced that they have almost completely lost interest in human affairs. What remains to be seen is what drastic decisions they'll probably take when aware of their origins, reality and planned destiny. This will be fun. That remain to be seen. Specially for these future creatures of artificial design. Jorge Luis Borges, probably the greatest argentinian poet, wrote a beautiful related poem called El Golem. Here's an acceptable(although with many spanish overtones) english translation: http://alaska-kamtchatka.blogspot.com/2007/09/borges-golem.html Here's another, more english version, although probably not so nice: http://www.buffaloreadings.com/article.php?story=20061115171048227 And here's the spanish version, in all its magnificence: http://www.poemas-del-alma.com/jorge-luis-borges-el-golem.htm Best regards, Mauro
Re: [Vo]:Cold fusion bombs
Robin van Spaandonk wrote: Wait for it . . . Wait for it . . . Minutes later the cell starts to self-heat, as positive feedback kicks in. It ramps up slowly, over several minutes, and finally reaches the climax boil off (as Biberian calls it). [snip] Minutes are typical time intervals for thermal transmission. Perhaps it just takes a while for the heat to reach the active sites? No doubt that is the reason. The same thing happens when you heat the cell by other means, such as a joule heater. Whether it heats itself or is heated externally, it works the same way, and that is why we know it is the heat that does the trick, not neutrons or some other product of the reaction. This is a slow and unreliable way to control the reaction. I doubt that temperature will became an effective way to modulate the reaction in a practical device. If there is a way to do that, I guess it would be de-gassing nanoparticles. I hope that cold fusion can be modulated. - Jed
[Vo]:Electrolysis Looks Very Weird
Ordinary things often look weird to me. Like how do zillions of raindrops create a consistent appearance of a rainbow when they are randomly falling thru the air... seems like you would get a mess of mostly white light and not a neat march of apparently organized Roy G. Biv's. Anyhow, forgive my ignorance but electrolysis looks very weird to me. If I didn't know that DC can create bubbles of O2 and H2, I say it was some 'cold fusion' hoax ( a joke). A flow of current tears a couple Hydrogen atoms loose but somehow the now free Oxygen only appears a zillion skillion light years away (relative to being an atom) at the other electrode. How this communicates across a vast expanse of random billiard balls whacking around is beyond me. It looks like a prisoner exchange in a spy novel except over ridiculous distances and involving grabbing a passing citizen and telling them they can walk thru Checkpoint Charlie ( a cold war reference) to freedom right now if they pair up with somebody else. Meanwhile, I'm told that all sorts of freaks like H3O are just wandering around but otherwise unseen. Very weird.
RE: [Vo]:Electrolysis Looks Very Weird
From: Chris Zell * A flow of current tears a couple Hydrogen atoms loose but somehow the now free Oxygen only appears a zillion skillion light years away (relative to being an atom) at the other electrode. How this communicates across a vast expanse of random billiard balls whacking around is beyond me. Chris - the spy part, and the 'impossible transfer' of oxygen over a relatively large distance -sounds much interesting as a fictional story, but the reality of the situation is much more mundane. No magic here, at least not until we bring in the replacement actors (fractional hydrogen etc). On the cathode, a temporarily free or transient proton (protons are almost always temporarily free) is captured by electrostatic attraction to the negative charge on the metal surface - and immediately pairs with another proton . but the molecular species that is left in the general vicinity of the donor water molecule, is the hydroxyl ion, not oxygen. And the ion does not need to go far to complete the transaction. This OH- ion which has lost a proton, and which is identical to all of the zillion, skillion other hydroxyls which are present in the electrolyte, does not really need to move more than a few angstroms spatially - since it has an identical twin, which is close to the anode, and it is that remote twin which provides the oxygen for the bubble forming over there on the anode . way, way over there. IOW any hydroxyl ion is fungible and only moves slowly although the net flow of current is rapid. So - in effect, the first hydroxy near the cathode is merely a replacement for another one, and for something which can happen later - and there is a slow migration, over millions of iterations - rather than a magical and instantaneous jump - over a vast expanse of little billiard balls. In a way this is similar to current flow in normal metal conduction where the so-called drift velocity of electrons is slow compared to the emf, which is about half of lightspeed in conductive metals. Jones
