Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
I agree, I have not read any post from anonymous Jojo for a while, but as I know, she has not contributed with much relevant information. As she is anonymous, I would recommend banning her, becuse she does not want to contribute with the high quality content. She does not even seem to know what here is off-topic and why it is off-topic. High quality content is always on-topic here. As she is continuos problem that is degrading the list quality, I would strongly recommend banning her. There should not be much tolerance for anonymous users, who are flooding the list with irrelevant content. Although Jojo is a girls name, I am not perfectly sure with her gender identity. —Jouni
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Just to clarify, Ruby is not referring to me. I have never joined cold fusion now, nor have posted there, as far as I can remember. Jojo - Original Message - From: Ruby To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity The avatar I believe you are referring to has also been banned from commenting on our website due to the exact same activity that has nothing to do with our focus of cold fusion. It is quite offensive and I believe the entity has a mental illness, so engaging it will do no good. On 12/22/12 9:21 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Here, after a long period simply ignoring this fellow's posts, when it became clear that he was using this list almost totally to troll, I started responding again, initially by documenting what he'd been doing, showing how he was lying about his own behavior. -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Yes, it would be good if Mr. Beaty took a long look at the situtation Vortex-L has become. Then maybe, he can see that I was discussing with civility on a thread I started before Lomax, SVJ and others started the insults. Yes, I am the troll for responding appropriately to insults. Maybe, he'll notice that my responses are with insults that are calibrated to the level of nastiness thrown my way. Maybe. he'll notice which people really start the insults around here. Very well, whichever twilight zone you live in, I'm the troll You know, the Bible does predict a time when people would twist facts so much that they would call evil, good and good, evil. Alas, that time is upon us. The victim is the aggressor that needs to be banned. While the aggressors, because there's a bunch of them, as in a mob, get their way. After all, there's a lot of them so they must be right. OK, whatever. I am fighting to keep a little sanity in Vortex-L and keep people like you from dragging down this fine fine forum with your incessant trolling of off-topic posts. We have lost fine fine great men with great ideas because of incessant off-topic posts and noise and you still maintain that it is your right to do so. May I remind you that this problem preceeded my joining Vortex-L, so I am not the problem. I am one fighting to highlight this problem and people like Lomax and SVJ and others just can't handle the fact that I am trying to fix this forum that has become dysfunctional. So, If Bill does what you want, I wouldn't care too much. After all, I am not really interested in joining a mob group. Jojo - Original Message - From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 11:42 PM Subject: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity I just sent off a brief message to Mr. Beaty asking if he could take a moment of his time to assess whether what I personally perceive to be an increase in trolling activity originating from certain anonymous individuals (whose names shall not be mentioned here to avoid email filters) might need to be addressed. It's generally not my policy to pester Mr. Beaty as we all have busy lives that need attending to. However, I am getting concerned. It was just my own personal opinion that I expressed to Mr. Beaty. As a single opinion I don't carry that much weight. It's more likely to be the collective opinions of the Collective that will carry the necessary weight. Therefore, others who might feel concerned about recent trolling activity might want to drop Bill a line. Be sure to express your own opinion. BE BRIEF!!! I did mention the fact that, IMHO, posting clearly marked Off Topic [OT] discussions is a perfectly healthy activity for Vortex-l participants, as long as the intention is not to incite undue aggravation among other members. Unfortunately, certain trolls have been abusing that privilege. IMHO, it might be time to address the matter, administratively. My 2 cents Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
how to shovel crap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYzPPY7IchY Harry
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
At 10:32 PM 12/22/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Then maybe, he can see that I was discussing with civility on a thread I started before Lomax, SVJ and others started the insults. Yes, I am the troll for responding appropriately to insults. Maybe, he'll notice that my responses are with insults that are calibrated to the level of nastiness thrown my way. Maybe. he'll notice which people really start the insults around here. He can see it by looking at the history of each thread. He can see that Jojo initiated the uncivil exchanges, converting civil disagreement into personal attacks. I've documented this in the past, and if Mr. Beatty wants some support in finding the documentation, if he actually needs that -- he may not --, I'll be happy to provide whatever he asks for, either on or off-list. He'll be able to tell that, in the most recent exchange, the discussion had gone cold, with Jojo having made the last comment, and other people just leaving it at that. He can then see that Jojo re-initiated it. [...] I am fighting to keep a little sanity in Vortex-L and keep people like you from dragging down this fine fine forum with your incessant trolling of off-topic posts. We have lost fine fine great men with great ideas because of incessant off-topic posts and noise and you still maintain that it is your right to do so. May I remind you that this problem preceeded my joining Vortex-L, so I am not the problem. I am one fighting to highlight this problem and people like Lomax and SVJ and others just can't handle the fact that I am trying to fix this forum that has become dysfunctional. So, If Bill does what you want, I wouldn't care too much. After all, I am not really interested in joining a mob group. The list owner knows that some level of off-topic posting is useful socially. If it were true, however, that I were using this group for Muslim propaganda, to argue about Islam, that would be a problem, but Jojo introduced the whole issue of Islam. It appears to have been done to troll for my response. There was no relevance to ongoing discussions, which weren't about Islam. This was entirely introduced here by Jojo. The same is likely true about Jojo's attacks on President Obama. I first became involved in discussion with Jojo, as I recall, over his birther claims. I hadn't been familiar with the claims, generally trusting that if Obama really were not born in Hawaii, the truth would out -- and there might then be a constitutional problem, the resolution of which would be tough, and probably the Supreme Court would punt, i.e., consider that it would be an issue for Congress to resolve. But that's moot here. Jojo attacked me precisely because I researched his claims, and found them *preposterous*. And I reported that here. It's quite like the Moon God claims. I.e., if you search, you can find evidence for them. But we don't decide issues one-sidedly, only fanatics do that. We look at the balance of evidence. This is actually relevant to common Vortex discussions. For example, we can find evidence that Rossi is a fraud. We can find evidence that he's for real. What's the balance? Someone who is a fanatic only looks at one side. To actually come to sane conclusions -- or to recognize that no clear conclusion is yet possible -- one must consider *all the evidence.* Someone like Jojo, arguing about Vortex topics, will cloud the issues, taking only one side. That happens all the time, we accept it here, *when it's on topic.* We also allow people to express unpopular opinions about other topics here. It is only when this totally dominates participation that it starts to be a problem. I'll repeat my position: the list owner should warn anyone the list owner sees as having a problem with participation here, giving guidance on what is acceptable and what is not, and if the person neglects the warning, they should be banned. That's very simple, and the list owner is completely free to, for example, warn me or Steve or anyone. I'm not going to leave because of such a warning, if there is one. I'd respect it, to the degree possible. I survived on Wikipedia as long as I did because, until I concluded that due process was a waste of time, there, and because Wikipedia has a stated mission that causes a broader common law than owner rules to apply, I followed community process and heeded administrative warnings. -- and what ultimately happened was that I was pursued in spite of this, that bans were re-interpreted to include what they clearly had not originally been intended to include. The faction I'd confronted -- successfully! -- was *going to retaliate* no matter what I did, and enough members of ArbComm, from leaks from their private mailing list on Wikipediareview.com, were complicit that compliance became useless. My purpose on Wikipedia was to experiment with community process, and that mission had been accomplished, completed
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Speaking about civilty CMNS does not accept CV-less unidetinfiable members using nicknames saying what they want and not being accountable. Vortex used to be a nice place, it is not more. The Delete key is overused. Couldn't we discuss about the possible futures of LENR. I wrote a paper about this but only Gary Wright has sent a comment- not for the leading idea of the writing Peter On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 10:32 PM 12/22/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Then maybe, he can see that I was discussing with civility on a thread I started before Lomax, SVJ and others started the insults. Yes, I am the troll for responding appropriately to insults. Maybe, he'll notice that my responses are with insults that are calibrated to the level of nastiness thrown my way. Maybe. he'll notice which people really start the insults around here. He can see it by looking at the history of each thread. He can see that Jojo initiated the uncivil exchanges, converting civil disagreement into personal attacks. I've documented this in the past, and if Mr. Beatty wants some support in finding the documentation, if he actually needs that -- he may not --, I'll be happy to provide whatever he asks for, either on or off-list. He'll be able to tell that, in the most recent exchange, the discussion had gone cold, with Jojo having made the last comment, and other people just leaving it at that. He can then see that Jojo re-initiated it. [...] I am fighting to keep a little sanity in Vortex-L and keep people like you from dragging down this fine fine forum with your incessant trolling of off-topic posts. We have lost fine fine great men with great ideas because of incessant off-topic posts and noise and you still maintain that it is your right to do so. May I remind you that this problem preceeded my joining Vortex-L, so I am not the problem. I am one fighting to highlight this problem and people like Lomax and SVJ and others just can't handle the fact that I am trying to fix this forum that has become dysfunctional. So, If Bill does what you want, I wouldn't care too much. After all, I am not really interested in joining a mob group. The list owner knows that some level of off-topic posting is useful socially. If it were true, however, that I were using this group for Muslim propaganda, to argue about Islam, that would be a problem, but Jojo introduced the whole issue of Islam. It appears to have been done to troll for my response. There was no relevance to ongoing discussions, which weren't about Islam. This was entirely introduced here by Jojo. The same is likely true about Jojo's attacks on President Obama. I first became involved in discussion with Jojo, as I recall, over his birther claims. I hadn't been familiar with the claims, generally trusting that if Obama really were not born in Hawaii, the truth would out -- and there might then be a constitutional problem, the resolution of which would be tough, and probably the Supreme Court would punt, i.e., consider that it would be an issue for Congress to resolve. But that's moot here. Jojo attacked me precisely because I researched his claims, and found them *preposterous*. And I reported that here. It's quite like the Moon God claims. I.e., if you search, you can find evidence for them. But we don't decide issues one-sidedly, only fanatics do that. We look at the balance of evidence. This is actually relevant to common Vortex discussions. For example, we can find evidence that Rossi is a fraud. We can find evidence that he's for real. What's the balance? Someone who is a fanatic only looks at one side. To actually come to sane conclusions -- or to recognize that no clear conclusion is yet possible -- one must consider *all the evidence.* Someone like Jojo, arguing about Vortex topics, will cloud the issues, taking only one side. That happens all the time, we accept it here, *when it's on topic.* We also allow people to express unpopular opinions about other topics here. It is only when this totally dominates participation that it starts to be a problem. I'll repeat my position: the list owner should warn anyone the list owner sees as having a problem with participation here, giving guidance on what is acceptable and what is not, and if the person neglects the warning, they should be banned. That's very simple, and the list owner is completely free to, for example, warn me or Steve or anyone. I'm not going to leave because of such a warning, if there is one. I'd respect it, to the degree possible. I survived on Wikipedia as long as I did because, until I concluded that due process was a waste of time, there, and because Wikipedia has a stated mission that causes a broader common law than owner rules to apply, I followed community process and heeded administrative warnings. -- and what ultimately happened was that I was pursued in spite of
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking about civilty CMNS does not accept CV-less unidetinfiable members using nicknames saying what they want and not being accountable. Vortex used to be a nice place, it is not more. I agree. The sock puppets can go somewhere else. As can those who insist on religious trolling (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). I say ban the offenders, unsentimentally, without skipping a beat. They will have received far too many warnings already in my opinion and are simply trying to see how much they can get away with. Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That you consider that trolling? Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said? Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought, molested a 9 year old little girl. It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert. LOL Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walker To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Jojo, I've never added anyone to a killfile in my lilfe, but I'm doing it now. I hope Bill Beatty will ban you at some point, as you appear to have no desire to get in tune with the wishes of the people on this list and would prefer instead to try to steer the threads towards your own purposes. Until you are banned, as I hope you will be, blocking you will have to be adequate for now. All the best, Eric On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That you consider that trolling? Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said? Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought, molested a 9 year old little girl. It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert. LOL Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.comwrote: (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Excellent spin Lomax. Gotta admit, I did not forsee this spin. So, it's about Balance now, right? OK, if I am understanding you correctly, we should look at muhammed's life in Balance. On the one hand, he is a child molester who forced sex on a 9 year old little girl barely out of diapers; BUT BUT BUT on the other hand, he is a such such such great leader and allah's apostle (the HOLEY prophet) he is worth following and killing and going to jihad for. Is this what you want people to swallow? OK whatever. Goodness creepers, everyone who follow this child molester and fight for him and commit murder for him should have their heads examined. Have I not told that truth that muhammed had a 9 year old concubine that HE HAD SEX WITH? If you consider it insulting when people tell the truth about your religion islam, how do you think I would feel when people told lies about the Bible? The Bible written by goat herders? Nothing could be more moronic. Well, I guess, a book written by honest hard working goat herders has got to be infinitely better than a book written by a child molester. LOL Jojo PS. So, how about apologizing for calling me a liar about A'isha. You said that I was lying about muhammed's 9 year old concubine and that there were only evangelical sources. I have provided sources from muslim scholars (2 of them.) Are you honest enough to acknowledge that I did not lie about what I am saying. How about learning how to study and research correctly, ha? My goodness, you were a muslim chaplain? No wonder muslims are confused. They have you as the chaplain. So, who's the liar now. I provided proof from muslim scholars. (Salih Muslim and Salih Bukhari are 2 of the most respected and venerated muslim works.) You provided proof from wikipedia. Yet I am the liar? In case people don't see it. Here's the proof of A'isha (muhammed's 9 year old sexual toy) again. Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. Here is how the Prophet used to have fun and sex with his child bride. Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 298: Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in Itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses). Sahih Muslim Book 3, Number 0629: 'A'isha reported: I and the Messenger (may peace be upon him) took a bath from the same vessel and our hands alternated into it in the state that we had had sexual intercourse. Can we ever imagine how an over fifty years old man could fondle his pre-teen wife during her menstrual cycle! By the way, the meaning of Junub is sexual defilement, that is, the state after having sex. - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity At 10:32 PM 12/22/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Then maybe, he can see that I was discussing with civility on a thread I started before Lomax, SVJ and others started the insults. Yes, I am the troll for responding appropriately to insults. Maybe, he'll notice that my responses are with insults that are calibrated to the level of nastiness thrown my way. Maybe. he'll notice which people really start the insults around here. He can see it by looking at the history of each thread. He can see that Jojo initiated the uncivil exchanges, converting civil disagreement into personal attacks. I've documented this in the past, and if Mr. Beatty wants some support in finding the documentation, if he actually needs that -- he may not --, I'll be happy to provide whatever he asks for, either on or off-list. He'll be able to tell that, in the most recent exchange, the discussion had gone cold, with Jojo having made the last comment, and other people just leaving it at that. He can then see that Jojo re-initiated it. [...] I am fighting to keep a little sanity in Vortex-L and keep people like you from dragging down this fine fine forum with your incessant trolling of off-topic posts. We have lost fine fine great men with great ideas because of incessant
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
oh my goodness, such a great lost for me. If people would stop insulting me, this round of insults would end. It's that simple. I never start insults, but I will finish it. I hate bullies, gang of bullies, liars and gang of liars. Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walker To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Jojo, I've never added anyone to a killfile in my lilfe, but I'm doing it now. I hope Bill Beatty will ban you at some point, as you appear to have no desire to get in tune with the wishes of the people on this list and would prefer instead to try to steer the threads towards your own purposes. Until you are banned, as I hope you will be, blocking you will have to be adequate for now. All the best, Eric On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That you consider that trolling? Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said? Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought, molested a 9 year old little girl. It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert. LOL Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walker To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
George Carlin on religion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE On 23-Dec-12 20:36, Jojo Jaro wrote: As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That you consider that trolling? Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said? Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought, molested a 9 year old little girl. It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert. LOL Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Eric Walker mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com mailto:peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
BTW, there is no need to ban me. I will gladly unsubscribe and never resubscirbe again. This will end when people stop destroying this forum with incessant off-topic posts. It's not about what people in this group want, it's about civilized behavior and following the rules of this forum. Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walker To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Jojo, I've never added anyone to a killfile in my lilfe, but I'm doing it now. I hope Bill Beatty will ban you at some point, as you appear to have no desire to get in tune with the wishes of the people on this list and would prefer instead to try to steer the threads towards your own purposes. Until you are banned, as I hope you will be, blocking you will have to be adequate for now. All the best, Eric On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That you consider that trolling? Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said? Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought, molested a 9 year old little girl. It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert. LOL Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walker To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
LIAR I never initiate insults. I never inititate personal attacks. NEVER have, NEVER ever. You handpick my posts and build a fallacious history of the events here and lie about it. You're a BOLDFACE liar, just like your great HOLEY prophet. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity At 10:32 PM 12/22/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Then maybe, he can see that I was discussing with civility on a thread I started before Lomax, SVJ and others started the insults. Yes, I am the troll for responding appropriately to insults. Maybe, he'll notice that my responses are with insults that are calibrated to the level of nastiness thrown my way. Maybe. he'll notice which people really start the insults around here. He can see it by looking at the history of each thread. He can see that Jojo initiated the uncivil exchanges, converting civil disagreement into personal attacks. I've documented this in the past, and if Mr. Beatty wants some support in finding the documentation, if he actually needs that -- he may not --, I'll be happy to provide whatever he asks for, either on or off-list. He'll be able to tell that, in the most recent exchange, the discussion had gone cold, with Jojo having made the last comment, and other people just leaving it at that. He can then see that Jojo re-initiated it. [...] I am fighting to keep a little sanity in Vortex-L and keep people like you from dragging down this fine fine forum with your incessant trolling of off-topic posts. We have lost fine fine great men with great ideas because of incessant off-topic posts and noise and you still maintain that it is your right to do so. May I remind you that this problem preceeded my joining Vortex-L, so I am not the problem. I am one fighting to highlight this problem and people like Lomax and SVJ and others just can't handle the fact that I am trying to fix this forum that has become dysfunctional. So, If Bill does what you want, I wouldn't care too much. After all, I am not really interested in joining a mob group. The list owner knows that some level of off-topic posting is useful socially. If it were true, however, that I were using this group for Muslim propaganda, to argue about Islam, that would be a problem, but Jojo introduced the whole issue of Islam. It appears to have been done to troll for my response. There was no relevance to ongoing discussions, which weren't about Islam. This was entirely introduced here by Jojo. The same is likely true about Jojo's attacks on President Obama. I first became involved in discussion with Jojo, as I recall, over his birther claims. I hadn't been familiar with the claims, generally trusting that if Obama really were not born in Hawaii, the truth would out -- and there might then be a constitutional problem, the resolution of which would be tough, and probably the Supreme Court would punt, i.e., consider that it would be an issue for Congress to resolve. But that's moot here. Jojo attacked me precisely because I researched his claims, and found them *preposterous*. And I reported that here. It's quite like the Moon God claims. I.e., if you search, you can find evidence for them. But we don't decide issues one-sidedly, only fanatics do that. We look at the balance of evidence. This is actually relevant to common Vortex discussions. For example, we can find evidence that Rossi is a fraud. We can find evidence that he's for real. What's the balance? Someone who is a fanatic only looks at one side. To actually come to sane conclusions -- or to recognize that no clear conclusion is yet possible -- one must consider *all the evidence.* Someone like Jojo, arguing about Vortex topics, will cloud the issues, taking only one side. That happens all the time, we accept it here, *when it's on topic.* We also allow people to express unpopular opinions about other topics here. It is only when this totally dominates participation that it starts to be a problem. I'll repeat my position: the list owner should warn anyone the list owner sees as having a problem with participation here, giving guidance on what is acceptable and what is not, and if the person neglects the warning, they should be banned. That's very simple, and the list owner is completely free to, for example, warn me or Steve or anyone. I'm not going to leave because of such a warning, if there is one. I'd respect it, to the degree possible. I survived on Wikipedia as long as I did because, until I concluded that due process was a waste of time, there, and because Wikipedia has a stated mission that causes a broader common law than owner rules to apply, I followed community process and heeded administrative warnings. -- and what
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
At 02:20 PM 12/22/2012, Vorl Bek wrote: But aside from such outrages, unpleasantness can best be dealt with by using a killfile. I don't use a killfile, because I historically often need to review messages quickly. I filter his posts into a special folder, and don't routinely read them. But when the matter seems to require attention, I may respond, and I have the whole history then. Killfiles are useful for ordinary problems. This isn't ordinary. Some of us think only of ourselves. Yes, we can protect ourselves from begin trolled by using a killfile; however, that does not protect newcomers to the list, who will read interchanges and think it's typical of the list. These people may just go away. Jojo Jaro has promised to go away numerous times. He doesn't. He also has said that he only responds to outrageous comments from others, but the history does not support that. If it does, contrary to my own research, anyone is welcome to post evidence, either privately to me, or, if they feel it's needed, to the list in an OT thread like this. It's also true that there were inappropriate comments from others, on occasion. But nobody else but Jojo is consistently trolling. He's acknowledged it. He's retaliating. Or he's answering propaganda, often some simple comment reflecting a view he disagrees with. He's very open about it, if one actually reads what he's posted. If all he did was to disagree, this wouldn't be a problem. He doesn't merely disagree, he trots out every claim he could make to offend maximally, as to what he expects. He claims to expect me to try to go to my imam and ask for a fatwa against him. I.e., ask for some religious ruling that he should be killed. He has a totally crazy image of me, of Muslims, and, for that matter, of many of us, in various ways. And he repeats it, over and over, even when there has been no new excuse.
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Eh? Daniel seems to a bit, ah, out of it here. Nobody is blocked, not yet. Mr. Beaty has been asked to consider responding to the situation, and that's it. I'm not sure what Daniel is saying here. Yes, posts here show up on Google searches. In fact, when I have tried to find sources for Jojo Jaro's claims, this forum seems to pop up first. At 02:38 PM 12/22/2012, Daniel Rocha wrote: I think people who spread lies that tend to induce genocide should not be outside jail and much less allowed to post on this forum. I think it is shameful for Mr. Beaty to allow this person to block that certain person, since not doing that is allowing such lies to be spread in google. So, Mr. Beaty will end up to be a collaborator with a nazist mentality, even possibly against his wishes, and influencing other people who look for information on google, to act in genocide like ways against Muslims. 2012/12/22 OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson mailto:orionwo...@charter.netorionwo...@charter.net It was just my own personal opinion that I expressed to Mr. Beaty. As a single opinion I don't carry that much weight. It's more likely to be the collective opinions of the Collective that will carry the necessary weight. Therefore, others who might feel concerned about recent trolling activity might want to drop Bill a line. Be sure to express your own opinion. BE BRIEF!!! -- Daniel Rocha - RJ mailto:danieldi...@gmail.comdanieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
At 05:36 PM 12/23/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. I don't recall that. Rather rude, I'd say, but is there something wrong with being a goat herder (i.e., a nomad)? People who believe the Bible (or the Qur'an) are fairy tales are common. There is something wrong with the idea. No fairies in the fairy tale. Must mean something else, like myth. Something wrong with myth? Myth is how people preserved ideas and conveyed meaning that wasn't scientific fact. Not commenting on the Bible here, but the Qur'an is not a science textbook, nor is it a history text. It calls itself a story. A story that conveys something, and it does that. And that is *my* story. My training is to use the word story to refer to interpretations, to the creation and assignment of *meaning.* True and false are stories. That is, they necessarily involve interpretations. That's not Islam, it's epistemology and simple understanding. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, The truth does not require defending, it's just truth. yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Jojo Jaro actually has no idea what I believe. He simply makes assumptions from Muslim. He imagines the situation is parallel, it isn't. What I actually *worship* is Truth, and I don't own the truth; rather, it owns me. In all these discussions, I have simply stated what I've observed. Jojo Jaro thinks that I'm offended by the truth, and he believes that he has the truth. But he does not tell us what he actually knows, he tells us what he *believes*. There is a huge difference. And what he believes is not what he'd find in the Bible, for example, it's what he's gotten from reading lots of material that is from people he trusts, apparently. It's not coming from God, and unless his religion is something invented in the last few decades, it's very modern and not religious at all, except in a very loose sense. He takes whatever he likes and *believes* it. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; Great example. a fairy tale written by goat herders. Is that a *lie*. No, it's just an opinion, and not a particularly offensive one, except possible for some slur on nomads. It's just plain wrong, basically stupid. The nomads didn't write, they were generally illiterate. They almost certainly *did* tell stories. And so what? Now, did someone repeat fairy tale written by goat herders over and over? I don't recall seeing it at all. And did 'everyone go up in arms when Jojo defended the Bible? Again, I don't recall, basically I don't recall Jojo defending anything. He attacks. Period. If someone says something false about the Bible, and that fairy tale statement could be false, at least that's a reasonable interpretation, he doesn't explain what's false and what is true, he attacks the poor person who said that, except that I don't recall it happening here, and I haven't looked back to his early posts. Jojo *never* gives evidence, he just makes his statements and expects everyone to either believe him or do research *that he makes difficult.* but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. Some don't like that I'm responding here. If Jojo had simply responded to false statements, that would be one thing. But what was false that needed to be responded to with Allah is a Moon God and Muslims are all liars and Muslims follow a pedophile prophet and Muslims are all vicious killers and all the rest. No, Jojo does not defend, he attacks, and he attacks with what he might believe is the truth, but which he actually does not know. He's the same as those who attacked Jesus as a heretic, believing what they'd been told about him. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? Jojo is hardly an example of turning the other cheek. He's very explicitly disavowed doing that, and has threatened to respond (and has responded) to perceived insult with *more* insult, thus breaking not only the Christian rule, but the older Jewish rule (Islam actually combines them, as I pointed out in a post, but, to be sure, that's normative Islam, not necessarily how Muslims behave.) I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. That's pretty weird. So people dislike what Jojo is doing because they are afraid of Islam. Who, here, is having a field day with Christianity? Jojo is not Christianity. Hardly! There is only one person here who might be in real danger from what's been written here. Me. I'm not anonymous. I can be found. And there are Muslim fundamentalists who don't like how I write about Islam. For a time I had
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Please! Please do! Ol' Bab On 12/23/2012 6:23 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: BTW, there is no need to ban me. I will gladly unsubscribe and never resubscirbe again. This will end when people stop destroying this forum with incessant off-topic posts. It's not about what people in this group want, it's about civilized behavior and following the rules of this forum. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Eric Walker mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2012 6:45 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Jojo, I've never added anyone to a killfile in my lilfe, but I'm doing it now. I hope Bill Beatty will ban you at some point, as you appear to have no desire to get in tune with the wishes of the people on this list and would prefer instead to try to steer the threads towards your own purposes. Until you are banned, as I hope you will be, blocking you will have to be adequate for now. All the best, Eric On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com mailto:jth...@hotmail.com wrote: As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That you consider that trolling? Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said? Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought, molested a 9 year old little girl. It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert. LOL Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Eric Walker mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com mailto:peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Can you guarantee no more incessant off-topic posts? Jojo - Original Message - From: David L Babcock To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Please! Please do! Ol' Bab On 12/23/2012 6:23 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: BTW, there is no need to ban me. I will gladly unsubscribe and never resubscirbe again. This will end when people stop destroying this forum with incessant off-topic posts. It's not about what people in this group want, it's about civilized behavior and following the rules of this forum. Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walker To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Jojo, I've never added anyone to a killfile in my lilfe, but I'm doing it now. I hope Bill Beatty will ban you at some point, as you appear to have no desire to get in tune with the wishes of the people on this list and would prefer instead to try to steer the threads towards your own purposes. Until you are banned, as I hope you will be, blocking you will have to be adequate for now. All the best, Eric On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That you consider that trolling? Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said? Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought, molested a 9 year old little girl. It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert. LOL Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walker To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). Eric
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Can you herd cats? Ol' Bab On 12/23/2012 10:38 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Can you guarantee no more incessant off-topic posts? Jojo - Original Message - *From:* David L Babcock mailto:ol...@rochester.rr.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2012 11:29 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Please! Please do! Ol' Bab On 12/23/2012 6:23 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: BTW, there is no need to ban me. I will gladly unsubscribe and never resubscirbe again.
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Did you try? If you post a reply with criticism of the off-topic posts, your credibility with me will skyrocket and I will be more apt to take you advice. Jojo - Original Message - From: David L Babcock To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Can you herd cats? Ol' Bab On 12/23/2012 10:38 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: Can you guarantee no more incessant off-topic posts? Jojo - Original Message - From: David L Babcock To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Please! Please do! Ol' Bab On 12/23/2012 6:23 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: BTW, there is no need to ban me. I will gladly unsubscribe and never resubscirbe again.
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
At 06:11 PM 12/23/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Excellent spin Lomax. Gotta admit, I did not forsee this spin. So, it's about Balance now, right? OK, if I am understanding you correctly, we should look at muhammed's life in Balance. No, Jojo does not understand. Judging the interpretation of facts requires *balancing* evidence. Someone who is reasoning from conclusions only looks at evidence in one direction. Here, we can see, Jojo simply assumes his conclusion, and says things that are not from *any* source that would have knowledge. Watch. On the one hand, he is a child molester who forced sex on a 9 year old little girl barely out of diapers; He repeats the barely out of diapers, because what he wants to do is create an impression. Ayesha, at the time when sex became an issue, was sexually mature. Now, it can happen -- it's very rare -- that a very, very young girl might be sexually mature, technically. But that was not the case with this young woman. She was, at the *earliest* of the ages reported, nine. And the Arabs didn't use diapers. So: what is the source that 1. Sex was forced on her. 2. She was little. 3. She was barely out of diapers. 4. He was a child molester. You can find sources that she was nine; the problem is, these sources don't tell us how the reporter knew she was nine. Basically, it boils down to *rumor.* So the only thing that is *possibly true* there is based on rumors. What is clear is that the Muslim sources on which *all this is based* consider her sexually mature at consummation. And that was established by the ruling of a judge in the Yemen that a 10-year-old girl was raped -- by her husband -- because she had not gone through puberty. Believe me, if there was some idea that Ayesha was not sexually mature, that decision would have gone very differently. Marriageability at puberty is an almost universal tribal standard, around the world. It still exists, in theory, in some U.S. states, it's merely very, very rare that a judge would allow it (and very young marriage requires the permission of a judge). BUT BUT BUT on the other hand, he is a such such such great leader and allah's apostle (the HOLEY prophet) he is worth following and killing and going to jihad for. Is this what you want people to swallow? OK whatever. I don't think I've mentioned anything about going to jihad, nor have I extolled the greatness of the Prophet. No, Jojo is attacking this because he believes it would enrage me. After all, I'm a Muslim, and he's been taught to believe that we go ballistic over people saying that. No. We don't, most of us, we are more amused at the idiocy of the claims of someone like Jojo. He's not the first to say these things, the Pedophile Prophet trope was common for a time on soc.religion.islam until it simply was talked to death, and the moderators started to ban it. Christian moderator included. The real Christian apologists never supported it. It embarrassed them, in fact. Of course, those were real Christians. Have I not told that truth that muhammed had a 9 year old concubine that HE HAD SEX WITH? 1. Might be true that he had a nine-year old wife. 2. Not true that he had a nine-year old concubine. If you consider it insulting when people tell the truth about your religion islam, how do you think I would feel when people told lies about the Bible? The Bible written by goat herders? Nothing could be more moronic. The Bible was not written by goat herders. That's as nonsensical as Jojo's diapers on a nine-year old Arab woman (who was, by all accounts, sexually mature.) Well, I guess, a book written by honest hard working goat herders has got to be infinitely better than a book written by a child molester. LOL No, the bible was not written by goat herders, nor was the Qur'an written by a child molester. It even was not written by Muhammad. He was, like the goat herders, illiterate. Jojo PS. So, how about apologizing for calling me a liar about A'isha. And then he lies about what I said, or what I said was really about a lie. You said that I was lying about muhammed's 9 year old concubine Not a concubine. I wrote at one time that maybe there was a servant girl who was young, but I don't know such a story and Jojo didn't pick up on the distinction. Above, he makes it pretty clear that he's calling Ayesha a concubine. She wasn't. Period. So there goes a repeated lie. and that there were only evangelical sources. Never said that about the Ayesha material. Jojo does not actually pay attention. I have provided sources from muslim scholars (2 of them.) Those are not scholars, as such. They are *sources*, early ones, compilations of stories about the Prophet, and they don't confirm Jojo's claims. Are you honest enough to acknowledge that I did not lie about what I am saying. I never denied that sources exist. I denied that you had provided them, and
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
I've gone over the history, and Jojo is lying again. I'll be happy to apologize if I erred in my analysis. Jojo, below, says I nandpicked his posts. If I cherry-picked the posts, I certainly did not attept to do so. But the cherry-picking claim is a cheap shot. If I cherry-picked, then Jojo could point to the others, for balance. Here, I just summarized. I presented actual links before, that show that if Jojo isn't just lying, he doesn't realize what he himself did, so certain is he that others are just picking on him. Let him cast the beam out of his own eye before he attempts to remove the splinter from his neighbor's. At 06:31 PM 12/23/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: LIAR I never initiate insults. I never inititate personal attacks. NEVER have, NEVER ever. You handpick my posts and build a fallacious history of the events here and lie about it. You're a BOLDFACE liar, just like your great HOLEY prophet. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 1:31 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity At 10:32 PM 12/22/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Then maybe, he can see that I was discussing with civility on a thread I started before Lomax, SVJ and others started the insults. Yes, I am the troll for responding appropriately to insults. Maybe, he'll notice that my responses are with insults that are calibrated to the level of nastiness thrown my way. Maybe. he'll notice which people really start the insults around here. He can see it by looking at the history of each thread. He can see that Jojo initiated the uncivil exchanges, converting civil disagreement into personal attacks. I've documented this in the past, and if Mr. Beatty wants some support in finding the documentation, if he actually needs that -- he may not --, I'll be happy to provide whatever he asks for, either on or off-list. He'll be able to tell that, in the most recent exchange, the discussion had gone cold, with Jojo having made the last comment, and other people just leaving it at that. He can then see that Jojo re-initiated it. [...] I am fighting to keep a little sanity in Vortex-L and keep people like you from dragging down this fine fine forum with your incessant trolling of off-topic posts. We have lost fine fine great men with great ideas because of incessant off-topic posts and noise and you still maintain that it is your right to do so. May I remind you that this problem preceeded my joining Vortex-L, so I am not the problem. I am one fighting to highlight this problem and people like Lomax and SVJ and others just can't handle the fact that I am trying to fix this forum that has become dysfunctional. So, If Bill does what you want, I wouldn't care too much. After all, I am not really interested in joining a mob group. The list owner knows that some level of off-topic posting is useful socially. If it were true, however, that I were using this group for Muslim propaganda, to argue about Islam, that would be a problem, but Jojo introduced the whole issue of Islam. It appears to have been done to troll for my response. There was no relevance to ongoing discussions, which weren't about Islam. This was entirely introduced here by Jojo. The same is likely true about Jojo's attacks on President Obama. I first became involved in discussion with Jojo, as I recall, over his birther claims. I hadn't been familiar with the claims, generally trusting that if Obama really were not born in Hawaii, the truth would out -- and there might then be a constitutional problem, the resolution of which would be tough, and probably the Supreme Court would punt, i.e., consider that it would be an issue for Congress to resolve. But that's moot here. Jojo attacked me precisely because I researched his claims, and found them *preposterous*. And I reported that here. It's quite like the Moon God claims. I.e., if you search, you can find evidence for them. But we don't decide issues one-sidedly, only fanatics do that. We look at the balance of evidence. This is actually relevant to common Vortex discussions. For example, we can find evidence that Rossi is a fraud. We can find evidence that he's for real. What's the balance? Someone who is a fanatic only looks at one side. To actually come to sane conclusions -- or to recognize that no clear conclusion is yet possible -- one must consider *all the evidence.* Someone like Jojo, arguing about Vortex topics, will cloud the issues, taking only one side. That happens all the time, we accept it here, *when it's on topic.* We also allow people to express unpopular opinions about other topics here. It is only when this totally dominates participation that it starts to be a problem. I'll repeat my position: the list owner should warn anyone the list
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Why would he care about off-topic posts on a list that he doesn't subscribe to? At 10:38 PM 12/23/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:  Can you guarantee no more incessant off-topic posts? Jojo - Original Message - From: mailto:ol...@rochester.rr.comDavid L Babcock To: mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.comvortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Please! Please do! Ol' Bab On 12/23/2012 6:23 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote: BTW, there is no need to ban me. I will gladly unsubscribe and never resubscirbe again. This will end when people stop destroying this forum with incessant off-topic posts. It's not about what people in this group want, it's about civilized behavior and following the rules of this forum. Jojo - Original Message - From: mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.comEric Walker To: mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.comvortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity Jojo, I've never added anyone to a killfile in my lilfe, but I'm doing it now. I hope Bill Beatty will ban you at some point, as you appear to have no desire to get in tune with the wishes of the people on this list and would prefer instead to try to steer the threads towards your own purposes. Until you are banned, as I hope you will be, blocking you will have to be adequate for now. All the best, Eric On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jojo Jaro mailto:jth...@hotmail.comjth...@hotmail.com wrote: As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written by goat herders. You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth. Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated. I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn the other cheek? I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam. What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That you consider that trolling? Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said? Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought, molested a 9 year old little girl. It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert. LOL Jojo - Original Message - From: mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.comEric Walker To: mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.comvortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck mailto:peter.gl...@gmail.competer.gl...@gmail.com wrote: (in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion against blatant trolling). Eric
[Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
I just sent off a brief message to Mr. Beaty asking if he could take a moment of his time to assess whether what I personally perceive to be an increase in trolling activity originating from certain anonymous individuals (whose names shall not be mentioned here to avoid email filters) might need to be addressed. It's generally not my policy to pester Mr. Beaty as we all have busy lives that need attending to. However, I am getting concerned. It was just my own personal opinion that I expressed to Mr. Beaty. As a single opinion I don't carry that much weight. It's more likely to be the collective opinions of the Collective that will carry the necessary weight. Therefore, others who might feel concerned about recent trolling activity might want to drop Bill a line. Be sure to express your own opinion. BE BRIEF!!! I did mention the fact that, IMHO, posting clearly marked Off Topic [OT] discussions is a perfectly healthy activity for Vortex-l participants, as long as the intention is not to incite undue aggravation among other members. Unfortunately, certain trolls have been abusing that privilege. IMHO, it might be time to address the matter, administratively. My 2 cents Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
Well, it just came to my attention from the B list that somehow I got unsubscribed a while back and been too busy to notice, so I just rejoined the list a few days back, I can't honestly say. But I'll keep my eyes out. On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 8:42 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: I just sent off a brief message to Mr. Beaty asking if he could take a moment of his time to assess whether what I personally perceive to be an increase in trolling activity originating from certain anonymous individuals (whose names shall not be mentioned here to avoid email filters) might need to be addressed. ** ** It’s generally not my policy to pester Mr. Beaty as we all have busy lives that need attending to. However, I am getting concerned. ** ** It was just my own personal opinion that I expressed to Mr. Beaty. As a single opinion I don’t carry that much weight. It’s more likely to be the collective opinions of the Collective that will carry the necessary weight. Therefore, others who might feel concerned about recent trolling activity might want to drop Bill a line. Be sure to express your own opinion. BE BRIEF!!! ** ** I did mention the fact that, IMHO, posting clearly marked Off Topic [OT] discussions is a perfectly healthy activity for Vortex-l participants, as long as the intention is not to incite undue aggravation among other members. Unfortunately, certain trolls have been abusing that privilege. IMHO, it might be time to address the matter, administratively. ** ** My 2 cents ** ** Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
I support Steven's action. I have not contacted Mr. Beaty, and my position in general is that individuals should not be banned from the list without a violated warning from someone speaking with authority. But that's normative, not prescriptive, and the matter is up to list owner discretion. I do support letting the list know when someone is banned. And banned list members do have the individual email addresses of list members (from before they were banned, if they keep their own received mail), and can still submit anything appropriate to the list through such a channel. Of course, a list member who forwards inappropriate material would themselves be subject to scrutiny. If the fellow in question were to send me a mail and I were to forward it to the list, in order to respond to it, I'd be responsible for that. I actually need to be careful about this, because it can happen inadvertently. Suppose a banned member sends me an email that is cc'd to the list, and I respond with Reply to All as I normally do, not noticing that it was sent personally to me. Even though the banned member's post would be bounced, *my reply* would not. I've previously erred in similar ways. Here, after a long period simply ignoring this fellow's posts, when it became clear that he was using this list almost totally to troll, I started responding again, initially by documenting what he'd been doing, showing how he was lying about his own behavior. And I also responded in detail about his claims about Islam, and there is a purpose to that (and when it was pointed out that any of this should have the [OT} tag, I started to add that.) My reason: what this fellow claims are myths believed by a surprisingly high number of Americans, probably because of the publication in certain religious circles. At 10:42 AM 12/22/2012, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: I just sent off a brief message to Mr. Beaty asking if he could take a moment of his time to assess whether what I personally perceive to be an increase in trolling activity originating from certain anonymous individuals (whose names shall not be mentioned here to avoid email filters) might need to be addressed. It's generally not my policy to pester Mr. Beaty as we all have busy lives that need attending to. However, I am getting concerned. It was just my own personal opinion that I expressed to Mr. Beaty. As a single opinion I don't carry that much weight. It's more likely to be the collective opinions of the Collective that will carry the necessary weight. Therefore, others who might feel concerned about recent trolling activity might want to drop Bill a line. Be sure to express your own opinion. BE BRIEF!!! I did mention the fact that, IMHO, posting clearly marked Off Topic [OT] discussions is a perfectly healthy activity for Vortex-l participants, as long as the intention is not to incite undue aggravation among other members. Unfortunately, certain trolls have been abusing that privilege. IMHO, it might be time to address the matter, administratively. My 2 cents Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
As religious beliefs have been behind some of the largest conflicts known to mankind, I believe it is very unproductive to attack each other's religion. America makes it free to choose and believe. All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom. - ALBERT EINSTEIN I do not know if it is trolling, but I would suggest to stop attacking. My two cents. Stewart On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: And banned list members do have the individual email addresses of list members (from before they were banned, if they keep their own received mail), and can still submit anything appropriate to the list through such a channel. Of course, a list member who forwards inappropriate material would themselves be subject to scrutiny. If the fellow in question were to send me a mail and I were to forward it to the list, in order to respond to it, I'd be responsible for that. I actually need to be careful about this, because it can happen inadvertently. Suppose a banned member sends me an email that is cc'd to the list, and I respond with Reply to All as I normally do, not noticing that it was sent personally to me. Even though the banned member's post would be bounced, *my reply* would not. I've previously erred in similar ways. Here, after a long period simply ignoring this fellow's posts, when it became clear that he was using this list almost totally to troll, I started responding again, initially by documenting what he'd been doing, showing how he was lying about his own behavior. And I also responded in detail about his claims about Islam, and there is a purpose to that (a
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
I haven't seen any trolling here. What I have seen are opinions of one gentleman being depreciated, often with insult, whereupon he answers vigorously. If the people who do not like his opinions would ignore him, or reply politely, I don't think there would be a problem. I recently started to block everything from or about him so I do not see anything. You might try that rather than trying to get him booted off the list, which is what 'administratively' would mean. Is there some reason you can not use killfiles to ignore him; I mean some psychological reason that requires you to see everything going on here, no matter how unpleasant it is to you? I ask because I do not feel any such necessity and do not understand why anybody would get bent out of shape about something like what you are talking about. There are limits of course; I, for example, would demand that Bill Beaty boot anyone who claimed that Rossi has shown no evidence of OU heat generation. But aside from such outrages, unpleasantness can best be dealt with by using a killfile.
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
I think people who spread lies that tend to induce genocide should not be outside jail and much less allowed to post on this forum. I think it is shameful for Mr. Beaty to allow this person to block that certain person, since not doing that is allowing such lies to be spread in google. So, Mr. Beaty will end up to be a collaborator with a nazist mentality, even possibly against his wishes, and influencing other people who look for information on google, to act in genocide like ways against Muslims. 2012/12/22 OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net It was just my own personal opinion that I expressed to Mr. Beaty. As a single opinion I don’t carry that much weight. It’s more likely to be the collective opinions of the Collective that will carry the necessary weight. Therefore, others who might feel concerned about recent trolling activity might want to drop Bill a line. Be sure to express your own opinion. BE BRIEF!!! ** -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
The avatar I believe you are referring to has also been banned from commenting on our website due to the exact same activity that has nothing to do with our focus of cold fusion. It is quite offensive and I believe the entity has a mental illness, so engaging it will do no good. On 12/22/12 9:21 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Here, after a long period simply ignoring this fellow's posts, when it became clear that he was using this list almost totally to troll, I started responding again, initially by documenting what he'd been doing, showing how he was lying about his own behavior. -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org mailto:r...@coldfusionnow.org Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org http://www.coldfusionnow.org
Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
While I think banning one or 2 might be a good idea. Since Bill has shown a reluctance to do this maybe setting up a filter is the best way. I would rather have a list owner that allowed freedom over a dictator that micromanaged it. Maybe those who have actually contributed to the running cost would have a case to request such though? I never have. John On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Ruby r...@hush.com wrote: The avatar I believe you are referring to has also been banned from commenting on our website due to the exact same activity that has nothing to do with our focus of cold fusion. It is quite offensive and I believe the entity has a mental illness, so engaging it will do no good. On 12/22/12 9:21 AM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: Here, after a long period simply ignoring this fellow's posts, when it became clear that he was using this list almost totally to troll, I started responding again, initially by documenting what he'd been doing, showing how he was lying about his own behavior. -- Ruby Carat r...@coldfusionnow.org Skype ruby-carat www.coldfusionnow.org
RE: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity
From Vorl: Since I started this post, I'll assume your rely was meant for me. I haven't seen any trolling here. What I have seen are opinions of one gentleman being depreciated, often with insult, whereupon he answers vigorously. You are certainly free to express your own observations on the matter. Here's my observation of your observation: I don't think you have been very observant. Feel free to disagree. If the people who do not like his opinions would ignore him, or reply politely, I don't think there would be a problem. Many are doing just that. Myself included. I have been filtering his posts for quite some time now. I recently started to block everything from or about him so I do not see anything. A sensible approach. As previously mentioned, I also block his posts. But I also choose not to block the posts of others who may be replying to this troll's posts. That is too much of a draconian approach for me to initiate. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater, etc... You might try that rather than trying to get him booted off the list, which is what 'administratively' would mean. I have asked Mr. Beaty to look into the matter administratively since it is his list to do what he wants with. In the end it is Mr. Beaty's decision, not mine. Is there some reason you can not use killfiles to ignore him; I do. I mean some psychological reason that requires you to see everything going on here, no matter how unpleasant it is to you? I would reply by saying you are being patronizing. You have no idea what I read and don't read on this list. Let me point out that recently there now seems to be brand new poster, an anonymous individual who goes by the name of Orgasm Wikipedia. This anonymous poster seems to be gearing up to perform copy-cat trolling behavior. He recently attempted to equate Mr. Lomax with Ahmadinejad. Lomax reminds me of Ahmadinejad. This is what concerns me: copy-cat trolling behavior. I am concerned about votex-l possibly catching another trolling virus. Catching a virus is an apt description Mr. Beaty has used in the past when trolling behavior suddenly takes an up-tick and begins to potentially affect the health of his list. The list can catch a fever. I ask because I do not feel any such necessity and do not understand why anybody would get bent out of shape about something like what you are talking about. It's quite simple. I'm concerned about the over-all health of the vortex-l list. There are limits of course; I, for example, would demand that Bill Beaty boot anyone who claimed that Rossi has shown no evidence of OU heat generation. Let me get this straight. You could care less about a poster ranting all over the place about his religious predilections, but OTOH, if someone opines that Rossi has shown now OU heat generation he should be booted off this list? Are you serious? That could possibly turn out to be half the Vortex-l membership! Hell! I don't know if Rossi is for real. I'd like to think he is the genuine article, but I really don't know. I have no proof! ;-) But aside from such outrages, unpleasantness can best be dealt with by using a killfile. Usually a killfile is enough. Unfortunately, sometimes it isn't. In the end, however, it's Mr. Beaty's decision. Incidentally, I don't want off topic discussions banned, particularly when the subjects being discussed are not meant to antagonize others. Unfortunately, increased trolling activity can result in a temporary ban of off topic discussions, as implemented by Mr. Beaty as a way to reduce the vortrex-l fever. That's a major reason why I'm concerned about recent trolling activity. I don't want off topic discussions temporarily banned as a way to reduce the fever. Mr. Beaty has had to do this in the past. Unfortunately, and IMO, that may very well be one of the goals this troller is attempting. If he can get Mr. Beaty to ban him but also ban off topic discussions he thinks are inappropriate for Vortex-l, he thinks he wins. Meanwhile, the rest of us are inconvenienced. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
