Re: [WSG] Opera market share
Hi Firefox is still in beta as well (I believe it is branched off the Mozilla 1.6 alpha build). The current Mozilla is 1.6 and Firefox 1.0 will most likely branch off 1.7 [1]. Developing to a beta's idiosyncrasies is fraught with danger, the best place to get them ironed out for Firefox is via Bugzilla rather than Rogaine. Getting back to the thread, when Opera shows itself as IE, it leaves the substring Opera in the User Agent string. If you are into stats then you can gain a good understanding of Opera %ages by greping (parsing) your log files for the substring Opera. This , though will never give you an accurate picture as the UA can easily be faked (I can change Firefox to Safari). This is why building to the relevant recommendation is the best path, independent of browser stats, then do the necessary tweaking. The only major issue I've come across with Opera is that clearing boxes (clear : both) clear floats way back in the document, rather than floats immediately 'above' the clear - I think I posted a question about this a while back, still haven't solved it. Aside from this, I was talking to a (OSX user) colleague the other day about Opera 7.5 on the Mac and how it seemed that the latest release of every browser bar one for OSX were for all intents and purposes compliant. How good is that! Cheers James [1]http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?p=398475 Leo J. O'Campo wrote: Hugh Russ is right. Standards based design done visually or not will save you time and headaches. Besides, Opera 7.5 is still beta so why should you even care about it yet. The current Opera doesn't rendered well on the Mac and I suspect the new Opera won't be any better. IMHO you should stick with FireFox, Mozilla, and Safari for visual designing on the Mac. Leo On Saturday, March 20, 2004, at 12:50 AM, Hugh Todd wrote: whether it was worth putting in the work to fix any Opera idiosyncracies * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Opera market share
Hi Hugh! Now that it seems Opera is back in town for the Mac, with its 7.5 beta, has anyone come across any more current info on stats for this browser? I looked at several stats and Opera has something between 1% and 8% marketshare. The 8%-Value is from a german newsite where IE has only 55% and Mozilla gets 35%, not the standard share I'd say. Personally, I use Opera 7.23 for browsing, mail and - most importantly - website development. To be honest, it wouldn't be a big difference to me if I checked my pages in the latest Firefox or Mozilla as those interpret CSS the standard way. I have to say: If your site looks good in Firefox AND validates, Opera won't choke at all. Thinking of it, I don't know any major flaw in Operas way of interptreting CSS 2.0. Besides, as IE keeps me away from the more sophisticated things, Opera is no problem at all. Regards -- Matthias http://www.kronn.de * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A rave about h1's
Peter Firminger schrieb: Yes it's quite legal but it's semantically poor. This is what information architecture is all about. h1 global section (logo, slogan, navigation, search etc.) h1 actual content section h1 optional section one h1 optional section two That is the structure I would like to use. Any thoughts? Does the title of a book have the same semantic meaning as a chapter title within it? No. One is a higher level of information. Just look at the table of contents in any book. All chapters are within the book and the book, in this case is the global section. A website is not book. It is different, it is not something you hold in your hands, it is more abstract. For me a headline introduces a section. Nothing else. It doesn't give sections meanings or relations to other elements, except other hn. Now global section could either be the site logo/name etc or it could be the title of the section of the site or even just the page title. Don't think of it as how you want them to display on the page. Use CSS to make them all look the same if that's your issue. This is about structure, not presentation. I'll admit that my example is not optimal. I'm talking about structure not presentation. The word global implies something like root, that's not what I wanted. Think of it the same way as a document tree, an XML structure or a nested list. K. [...] Let's put that into a real scenario. - h1Web Standards Group/h1 - H2ResourcesH2 - H3CSS Resources/H3 - H4CSS Selectors/H4 - H4CSS Specificity/H4 - H3HTML Resources/H3 - H4HTML Metadata/H4 My example: div class=section h1Web Standards Group/h1 h2Navigation/h2 ul ... li class=selectedResources/li ... /ul /div div class=section h1Resources/h1 h2CSS Resources/h2 ... /div Is this semantically false? The sections have no semantically relation te each other, they are separated, that's what I want. Of course you can see a relation between the selected item and the actual content, but that's you not the markup. For a machine they would be different equivalent sections. What do you think? If you don't use the H1 for the global section then they all move up one in the hierarchy and then H1 is correct for the section titles, but not the sub sections. Otherwise they wouldn't be sub sections at all. Ok, so it comes down to personal opinion what a section is? BTW: Can someone point me to a good book or resource about semantics? Thanks. Tonico * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A rave about h1's
James Ellis schrieb: Hi My thinking is that hN delineates headings of the same semantic weight (or groups content), be they styled by CSS like h4 class=failure/h4 or h4 class=success/h4 or not*: I agree. The difference being that h1 is the highest level of the headings in a document - there is nothing really that comes to mind that is higher up the tree in HTML. Hm, but in the real world there are often more then one highest elements. Like let's say two or more founders of the same company. Or two or more teams in a game? If there was one higher up the tree then using multiple h1s would be ok, something like the root/root element comes to mind -- leaving headings to be headings. My rambling has been discussed earlier within an XHTML 2.0 thread I think On this list? Tonico * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A rave about h1's
We could probably argue this back and forward, but I feel very strongly that there should be only one h1 on a page and it should be the page title. I used to think it should be the site name but am moving away from that stance now. To use your example of 2 company founders - there would always need to be a title above both founders: div id=content h1Company founders/h1 h2Joe Blog/h2 pBlurb about Joe.../p h3Joe's career highs/h3 pCareer blurb.../p h2Jane doe/h2 pBlurb about Jane.../p h3Jane's career highs/h3 pCareer blurb.../p /div div id=nav h2site sections/h2 ul lisection 1/li Etc... This has more meaning as the page TOPIC is introduced, then the sections are introduced. I would find it a little odd to jump straight into a series of founders without knowing that the page was ABOUT founders. As said on the list before, semantically correct markup can be argued about from many angles. :) Russ Hm, but in the real world there are often more then one highest elements. Like let's say two or more founders of the same company. Or two or more teams in a game? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Help us redesign the WSG site
russ weakley spoke the following wise words on 21/03/2004 1:58AM EST: The WSG site was built very quickly when we first put the group together (just over a year ago). It is very much overdue for a redesign. In the spirit of group ownership, we thought it would be a good idea to open the process up to all members. Great! I only wish I had more time to encourage my creative side. So much of my time is spent doing technical stuff. Can't wait to see the entries, and who knows... maybe some celebrity appearances? -- tim www.toolmantim.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Opera market share
Matthias... lol I lvoe it! On Saturday, March 20, 2004, at 07:01 AM, Matthias wrote: Besides, as IE keeps me away from the more sophisticated things, Opera is no problem at all. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A rave about h1's
Tonico A website is not book. It is different, it is not something you hold in your hands, This very true and sometimes people with print experience still need to grasp it (sorry guys... you know who you are). However the reverse is also true. Programmers think in terms of modules (sections) and algorithms, but these become esoteric to the rest of us. I think that standards based development is the best chance we have to bridge these two worlds. The semantic standards are closer to how we think and read books, newspapers, and websites. In other word, gather information. This information standard needs to be maintained across all media so as not to leave anyone behind. Just my thoughts Leo * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Opera market share
Try here: http://snapshot.opera.com/mac/m750p3.html Russ Where can I get the Opera 7.5 Beta? Couldn't see an obvious link on the site... --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Opera market share
Justin, Russ posted a link to a page a while back with links to all the preview versions: http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/001178.php -Hugh Where can I get the Opera 7.5 Beta? Couldn't see an obvious link on the site... * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.
You forgot the URL -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Nick Lo wrote: Hello all, Ok this is my first fully CSS based site (still work in progress by the way) and I first of all want to give credit to Russ's great tutorial at: http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/ I'm a little concerned at how closely I ended up to his original however the client had actually doodled something almost exactly the same and I couldn't really see the point in rejigging for the sake of it. Especially as this is a non-profit organisation and one of the requirements is that the site should be easily maintainable by volunteers. The presence of Russ's tutorials actually stands as a good reason to go with something similar. Also, I have to admit that I needed to start with something reassuring...ok, I was scared! So a BIG thanks to Russ and I know it's kind of late but if you have any objections to the similarities please let me know so we can rejig. I decided this would be a good opportunity to go fully CSS mainly because aside from the well discussed benefits it also allows volunteers to work on content separately from the presentation elements. Anyway, I am of course having issues here and there...but my current main one is the header text in IE6 which should appear as white as it does in IE 5.5 down. I'm on Mac OS X with little access right now to a PC (I'm weighing up the best solution there, probably Virtual PC) so I'm relying on online captures ( http://www.danvine.com/iecapture/ ) or colleagues help. Anyone with any ideas/comments (I know Opera is having issues with the site!) Thanks, Nick * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.
Nick Do you have a URL? Cheers James Nick Lo wrote: Hello all, Ok this is my first fully CSS based site * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.
The address is? P Hello all, Ok this is my first fully CSS based site (still work in progress by the way) and I first of all want to give credit to Russ's great * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.
Dear me, little obvious that I've been slogging through this to the point of eye twitching...the URL is: http://www.amcs.org.au ...and thanks again Russ, Nick No objections to any of my templates being used partially or fully. They were put online to be used and/or abused as needed :) Russ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.
Nick Lo wrote:
http://www.amcs.org.au
the header text in IE6 which should appear
as white as it does in IE 5.5 down. I
Hi Nick
Try this 'Holly' hack, named after Holly Bergevin
/* Hide from IE5-mac \*/
* html div#header {
height:1%
}
/* End hide from IE5-mac */
All IE versions (PC and Mac) see the style after the * html
As this problem doesn't affect IE mac the comment hack is used.
For some reason applying a height to your header div fixes this problem
in IE, and IE will ignore height declared.
Hi list am a newbie here, invited from the CSS Foundations, I though I
was on too many lists until I came across this one, great too been
invited and am enjoying the friendly and informative discussions.
Regards
Jason Turnbull
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RE: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.
Hi Nick
Try:
H1 {position: relative;}
This might help; I came up against the same problem in IE6 and found
that this fixed the problem.
Jeff
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Lo
Sent: Sunday, 21 March 2004 4:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] [CSS] IE6 header issue.
Dear me, little obvious that I've been slogging through this to the
point of eye twitching...the URL is:
http://www.amcs.org.au
...and thanks again Russ,
Nick
No objections to any of my templates being used partially or fully.
They
were put online to be used and/or abused as needed :)
Russ
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
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