RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
From: Jon Tan I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate address lines would be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, which regardless of what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by screen readers. Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e: The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Anytown VIC 3000. Australia Post address format rules/recommendations don't allow punctuation. Apparently it messes with the automated sorting. It'd be good to have a method that was independant of local quirks and variations. -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Richard Czeiger wrote: Umm actually you do.. Check out www.courtappearances.com.au to see what I'm talking about. Here's the CSS for that: http://www.courtappearances.com.au/styles/style.css As soon as I read ...you do I knew what hook you were using ;) It's *very* nice ;) Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/10/05 3:38 PM, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Read this aloud: 909 anystreet ithaca, new york Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. For this address it doesn't matter, but for this real address it does: Lewisham Road North Prahran VIC Perhaps adding a comma at the end of the first line would indicate a pause to a screen reader? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Usually when telling someone an address your giving it to them as
information which they either have to write down or type in. The pause
is usually to let them write it down before you go any further.
I wonder if there is a way to make the screen reader say what you want
it to say for instance if you could preface the whole address with
something like "start address" and then end with "end address" then
they could know that they could just copy and paste that portion
wherever they wanted if they needed it.
Buddy
Richard Czeiger wrote:
Hey Christian.
Actually I find when
reading an address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after
certain elements:
street,
suburb,
state and postcode
(these seem to go togetherfor my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost
like a license plate)
Saying the whole
address wihout pausing wouldn't make sense
R
-
Original Message -
From:
Christian
Montoya
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK
so someone pointed out that pre would be better for poetry
That was me.
pre
does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a
screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through
pre
as opposed to br /. Do they pause or say "new line"? I think,
when all is
said and done though that pre does seem better for poetry.
Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant
to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would
be up to the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was
not lost to the listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e.
cummings, you would have a boatload of nbsp; and br /.
Not pretty at all.
Glad we agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when
reading an address aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care
where the line breaks are? Read this aloud:
909 anystreet
ithaca, new york
Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we
don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. If we
want it there for the browser that lacks css we would want the br
/. Sometimes line breaks are necessary visually, with or without
css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} method would work too. I would
prefer the br /.
For another example of where I use br /, I sometimes use it in
forms, where I want line breaks with or without css.
PS: in terms of the address element itself - check out
what's happening
over here!
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976
The "resource" term looks like a great way to make an address semantic.
--
- C Montoya
rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
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[WSG] DW 8 standards
Hi, is there any good reviews of Dreamweaver 8 and web standards? do you recommend using it to achieve standards compliant sites? any advantages/disadvantages? Thanks in advance. -- Regards Jad madi Blog http://EasyHTTP.com/jad/ Web standards Planet http://W3planet.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] DW 8 standards
Jad Madi is there any good reviews of Dreamweaver 8 and web standards? do you recommend using it to achieve standards compliant sites? any advantages/disadvantages? Apparently it's quite good. I'd recommend having a look at http://www.sitepoint.com/article/dreamweaver-8-standards (and the book that this is taken from, http://www.sitepoint.com/books/dreamweaver1/ ) Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
I know we live in commercial, capitalist times ;) ... however, I cannot
agree that a company logo is page content (that warrants a presence in the
HTML) in the true sense:
a logo is essentially 'indexical': it depends for its meaning upon some
other entity (the company) and the context within which it is presented
(their website).
This:
[some graphic]
means nothing and has no semantic value
This, on the other hand:
h1a href=/index.htmlMy Company/a/h1
has obvious meaning!
Whilst I'm not a big fan of image replacement, I do use it for header logos
because it solves two problems in one:
a) You get to use a fancy image in the header - which is _only_ a fancy
marketing device - not content proper.
b) You always have a sensible H1 for which all H2s are genuine subheadings.
One last thing: using image replacement does not mean that you cannot link
that image to the homepage. Using the h1a ... above, just set link to
display:block and replace on that with text-indent:-1000em.
Chris
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Terry Bunter
Sent: 10 October 2005 05:15
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Sorry if this has been discussed before and it may be a little of topic of
this thread but I have always wondered why h1 would be used in the header of
the page for a logo.
I have always thought the h1 element should be the main heading for the
content eg.
h1About Us/h1
pcontent.../p
This way the highest level heading is always unique to the section of the
website you are visiting.
Cheers
TB
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Richard Czeiger
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 1:43 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
I prefer the following IR:
div id=masthead
h1a href=index.html title=The Company Name Web SiteCompany
Name/a/h1 /div
in the stylesheet:
#masthead h1 {
margin: 0px; padding: 0px;
}
a {
width: Xpx; height: Ypx; overflow: hidden;
margin: 0px; padding: 0px; padding-top: Xpx; background: transparent
url(images/logo.gif) no-repeat top left; }
That way you don't get clear.gif going in your otherwise semantically nice
mark up :o)
R
- Original Message -
From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Richard Czeiger wrote:
Doing it this way IS good branding.
It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in
certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will
know what I'm talking about...
Good point.
This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of control (image
source
and size) and makes the logo clickable.
h1a title=Company home page href=/img src=clear.gif alt=
//aCompany Name/h1
[1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp
/plug
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Townson, Chris b) You always have a sensible H1 for which all H2s are genuine subheadings. and what, h1img src=logo.jpg alt=Company name //h1 is not genuine? Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Russ wrote: Derek Featherstone has posted his accessibility presentation from WE05 at a new site - Simply Accessible http://simplyaccessible.org/ I've just gotta say... this is fantastic. As someone to whom the podcasts are pretty much inaccessible (because I am stuck with dial-up and also I don't hear very well) this is one presentation that is actually meaningful because it's published in tutorial format rather than just - slides. HUGE kudos to Derek whose commitment to accessibility is clearly more than just a matter of meeting a few guidelines. So often, a small extra effort on the behalf of those who can, means the world to those who can't. Vicki. :-) -- Vicki Berry DistinctiveWeb Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au Blog: http://www.unheardword.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Chris Townson wrote: b) You always have a sensible H1 for which all H2s are genuine subheadings. Patrick H. Lauke wrote and what, h1img src=logo.jpg alt=Company name //h1 is not genuine? Semantically, I would say: No, its not This would be due to the point about indexicality I mentioned. Let me put it another way: - Would you use an image as a heading elsewhere (say, an image which contained text)? Aside from semantics, this kind of thing is not recommended for accessibility reasons. Ideally, a heading is something which describes and encapsulates that which comes thereafter. Because an logo is indexical, it alone (usually) describes nothing - it requires a context for that. Nonetheless, because your example has appropriate alt text, it might be possible to argue that there is text present. However, in response to that, I would ask: Is an image tag the correct way (semantically) to mark-up that text? I happen to think that it isn't - it should be done with plain text inside the heading / link tag ... however, I can see your point and wouldn't want to be total pedant on the issue :D at http://www.nature.com/ we do just use an image for our header logo however, that is mainly because we would run out of heading levels on scientific articles otherwise! Chris DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques
From: James Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best practices using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you talk about are a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their software (what happened to fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars and DirectX calls in CSS instead of correct PNG alpha support. - That's not true, James. Don't take this the wrong way, but you shouldn't let your love of standards and your disdain for Microsoft cloud your vision. Conditional Comments were not included in IE as a means for fixing CSS bugs. They are merely a way of filtering code for different versions of IE and have been used prolifically in IE-baased intranet apps. But it is perfectly suited as a failsafe way of addressing CSS bugs and as such is a feature that all browsers might consider using because, in the real world, no browser can ever be assured of being 100% bug free across all versions. I believe it's been a topic for discussion on the W3C lists. Whether other browser developers will adopt similar features is anyone's guess, but it would be an intelligent move. Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Townson, Chris This would be due to the point about indexicality I mentioned. This would be the point where I'd say the whole discussion on semantics risks disappearing up it own behind...no offense. You want to do web design, eh? Well, get onto the semiotics and linguistics course for the next 10 years and then we'll talk about it... Ideally, a heading is something which describes and encapsulates that which comes thereafter. Because an logo is indexical, it alone (usually) describes nothing - it requires a context for that. I'd say it defines that what follows belongs to the entity identified by said logo...but I think we may end up in rather philosophical discussions here and lose touch with reality ;) However, in response to that, I would ask: Is an image tag the correct way (semantically) to mark-up that text? A company's identity is more than just its name. The logo, the typeface used, the colours, all play an integral part, imho. Hence an image seems to me the best compromise (until we get sophisticated mechanisms like SVG to work consistently in all browsers). I can see your point and wouldn't want to be total pedant on the issue :D Still good to have a principled discussion though...makes our lives as standardistas soo much more mysterious to the outside world ;) P __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques
James, I can see where you're coming from, and I'm all for the programming purity you're advocating, but I want to stick my hand up in support of Thierry's position here. In fact, I was in the process of assembling all these filters myself when he posted his link to this list, so I'm grateful to him for saving me the extra work ;-) [...] is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Apr/0027.html The last comment on CCs there shows the conflict of hack usage most clearly: Their use encourages the practice of coding for specific browsers, which goes against the whole purpose of standardisation! CSS hacks do too, but they don't pollute the document markup and they're more acceptable if used in moderation and when absolutely necessary to maintain accessibility. CSS hacks are pollution too, even in a style sheet. (And conditional comment usage for styling purposes need never be anything other than 'moderate'). Even the best hack - star html, let's say - is worse than a CC imho, because sure, it's valid, but it's not the least bit standard, and locating these hacks in the same place as standard rules only blurs the distinction between the two. CC's not only let me _isolate_ all the hacks from my standard style rules, they also let anyone else on the team (including novice coders) debug display problems *using only standard code* in a separate file. No-one needs to learn or implement anything other than CSS standards so, in a sense, you could say that conditional comments help teach good CSS. And the only 'semantic' content that's been changed in the (X)HTML is a reference to a file ... which is neither meaningful, nor part of the document content, or it wouldn't be in the head. I just don't see the downside (Andrew's mention of the extra few lines of code notwithstanding ... the hacks aren't made of helium, after all ;-) One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best practices using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you talk about are a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their software (what happened to fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars and DirectX calls in CSS instead of correct PNG alpha support. The bugs will never be fixed, the conditional comment support to work around them will never change. It's as good as we ever get in this game. Feel free to use your conditional comments, I'm not going to stop you, but don't pass it off as good programming. Well, I am trying to pass it off as just that. Feel free to argue the point further if I you remain unconvinced. Check out the HTML 4 spec on comments : http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/sgmltut.html#idx-HTML for more info. And check out the results of following only w3c specs in the browser most people still (inexplicably) use :-) It's just not professionally acceptable to deliver that to clients, as you well know. And I think CSS filters, as Thierry has listed them, while certainly outside the letter of the specs (and proper programming practice), are quite in keeping with their spirit. Cheers, Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
Hi, I'm starting a new website and have a border-bottom style on the a:hover menu links. It works perfectly in Safari but doesn't show up at all in MSIE on the PC. Would a kind person take a look and tell me where I'm going wrong? The page is at www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge, css at www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge/css/basic.css. Both validate. Many thanks, Mary ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
This would be due to the point about indexicality I mentioned. This would be the point where I'd say the whole discussion on semantics risks disappearing up it own behind...no offense. none taken :D You want to do web design, eh? Well, get onto the semiotics and linguistics course for the next 10 years and then we'll talk about it... well, it was only 9 years in my case ;D Ideally, a heading is something which describes and encapsulates that which comes thereafter. Because an logo is indexical, it alone (usually) describes nothing - it requires a context for that. I'd say it defines that what follows belongs to the entity identified by said logo...but I think we may end up in rather philosophical discussions here and lose touch with reality ;) I think we could agree that the relationship is symbiotic?! ;) However, the point about reality: there is, of course, a serious and practical point to the discussion - we want people to be able to write clean, 'semantic' code. Also, developers who work with Java, PHP etc etc are required to write 'object'-oriented code. However, in my experience, there are very few people who are any good at identifying what something _is_ in order to mark it up semantically or turn it into an object. The reality is that asking what is the correct way to markup a company logo? _is_ a philosophical question!! :D Is an image tag the correct way (semantically) to mark-up that text? A company's identity is more than just its name. The logo, the typeface used, the colours, all play an integral part, imho. Hence an image seems to me the best compromise (until we get sophisticated mechanisms like SVG to work consistently in all browsers). I agree with your point here completely. However, in pragmatic (;)) terms, with current technology, text is just the only solution which conveys meaning to _all_ users (not just those using graphical browsers on a desktop PC) - and the correct way to markup text is not as an image (i.e. as alt text in your example). Where the other methods are available (colour, font, other visual or audio medium), these can be used by overwriting the default handling of a particular element through CSS, Javascript etc (as long as this does not interfere with the availability of the 'generic foundation'; i.e. the text) QED: Use image replacement for logos (over h1 heading) where possible! Still good to have a principled discussion though...makes our lives as standardistas soo much more mysterious to the outside world ;) Exactly :D there are always 'principles' beneath quotitidan concerns: even endless debates on font-sizes and heading structures ;) C DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is confidential and should not be used by anyone who is not the original intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform the sender and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage mechanism. Neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept liability for any statements made which are clearly the sender's own and not expressly made on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or one of its agents. Please note that neither Macmillan Publishers Limited nor any of its agents accept any responsibility for viruses that may be contained in this e-mail or its attachments and it is your responsibility to scan the e-mail and attachments (if any). No contracts may be concluded on behalf of Macmillan Publishers Limited or its agents by means of e-mail communication. Macmillan Publishers Limited Registered in England and Wales with registered number 785998 Registered Office Brunel Road, Houndmills, Basingstoke RG21 6XS ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
... QED: Use image replacement for logos (over h1 heading) where possible! ... I'd say, where necessary... I gradually arrived at this: Logo is important visual/id/navigation element of the page, so I have it in the html as IMG. It is not header of any kind (imho, no need to argue), so it is not placed in H1, which is spared for more appropriate usage — i.e. main header of the page - About us, Products, etc. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/
RE: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
You need to change your navlist a as follows
#navlist a {
text-align: left;
margin-right: 10px;
display:block;
float:left;
}
Graham Cook
UA Oz
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 11:41 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
Hi,
I'm starting a new website and have a border-bottom style on the
a:hover menu links. It works perfectly in Safari but doesn't show up at
all in MSIE on the PC. Would a kind person take a look and tell me
where I'm going wrong?
The page is at www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge, css at
www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge/css/basic.css. Both validate.
Many thanks,
Mary
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Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
As an avid user of Dreamweaver everyday, I can tell you that Dreamweaver is great for compliant sites. It has a lot of built in tools like a validator that validates to the spec of your current DTD. Also closes tags according to the dtd chosen. It has not only xhtml validator but also 508 validator. Macromedia has been working side by side with the w3c very carefully to make sure their product can deliver accessible sites. The new version 8 is also way better for css layouts. That's one the new features it touts. Buddy Jad Madi wrote: Hi, is there any good reviews of Dreamweaver 8 and web standards? do you recommend using it to achieve standards compliant sites? any advantages/disadvantages? Thanks in advance. -- Regards Jad madi Blog http://EasyHTTP.com/jad/ Web standards Planet http://W3planet.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Townson, Chris I agree with your point here completely. However, in pragmatic (;)) terms, with current technology, text is just the only solution which conveys meaning to _all_ users (not just those using graphical browsers on a desktop PC) The only problem with having an image of a short piece of text, with proper alt, comes when users need to resize the text, granted. Apart from that, an image with proper alt is just as good to non graphical browsers. There is also the argument that, once users have such low vision that they require screen magnification, even bitmapped images don't necessarily look worse than normal screen magnified text, as even with many current magnification software solutions the software simply blows up the frame buffer (i.e. pixels) once you go over a certain size, if I remember correctly... But yeh...it's maybe not 100% ideal, but it isn't intrinsically bad either. Let's agree to disagree though :) Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
Thanks for your help, Graham. The border-bottom rules appear now, but
the logo has disappeared and the banner image jumps when I mouse over
the links.
Any ideas?
Mary
On 10 Oct 2005, at 15:23, Graham Cook wrote:
You need to change your navlist a as follows
#navlist a {
text-align: left;
margin-right: 10px;
display:block;
float:left;
}
Graham Cook
UA Oz
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 11:41 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
Hi,
I'm starting a new website and have a border-bottom style on the
a:hover menu links. It works perfectly in Safari but doesn't show up at
all in MSIE on the PC. Would a kind person take a look and tell me
where I'm going wrong?
The page is at www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge, css at
www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge/css/basic.css. Both validate.
Many thanks,
Mary
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE - amended
Ah, the logo has appeared again now. Image is still jumping, tho'.
Mary
On 10 Oct 2005, at 15:23, Graham Cook wrote:
You need to change your navlist a as follows
#navlist a {
text-align: left;
margin-right: 10px;
display:block;
float:left;
}
Graham Cook
UA Oz
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 11:41 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
Hi,
I'm starting a new website and have a border-bottom style on the
a:hover menu links. It works perfectly in Safari but doesn't show up at
all in MSIE on the PC. Would a kind person take a look and tell me
where I'm going wrong?
The page is at www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge, css at
www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge/css/basic.css. Both validate.
Many thanks,
Mary
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RE: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE - amended
Mary
Do you have a border on the a:link element? I think the bouncing is
because all the link styles should have bottom border (even if the color
is transparent) although a pale gray would look nice, which goes darker
on rollover.
#navlist a
{
text-align: left;
margin-right: 10px;
display:block;
float:left;
}
#navlist a:link, #navlist a:visited
{
border-bottom: 2px solid transparent;
}
#navlist a:hover, #navlist a:active
{
border-bottom: 2px solid #color of your choice;
}
HTH
Peter
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: 10 October 2005 16:11
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE - amended
Ah, the logo has appeared again now. Image is still jumping, tho'.
Mary
On 10 Oct 2005, at 15:23, Graham Cook wrote:
You need to change your navlist a as follows
#navlist a {
text-align: left;
margin-right: 10px;
display:block;
float:left;
}
Graham Cook
UA Oz
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 11:41 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Link underlines in MSIE
Hi,
I'm starting a new website and have a border-bottom style on the
a:hover menu links. It works perfectly in Safari but doesn't show up
at all in MSIE on the PC. Would a kind person take a look and tell me
where I'm going wrong?
The page is at www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge, css at
www.zebragraphics.co.uk/porge/css/basic.css. Both validate.
Many thanks,
Mary
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
Rimantas Liubertas wrote: H1, which is spared for more appropriate usage — i.e. main header of the page - About us, Products, etc. So, wich tag would you use to put your company/site name if you use H1 to mark-up the section name? OK. the site name can be in the title tag, but I think we all want to display it also inside a tag (wich one if not H1?) inside the content (body). I use to display site/company name in H1 and use H2 to section names. So, regarding this thread, I think I would try: div id=header a href=home.htmimg src=logo.jpg alt=Company name //a h1Company name/h1 /div The problem here seems to be if the logo img also includes the company name... So your company name is showed twice (in the image and in the h1). ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
adam reitsma wrote: oh dear is it just me, or does this TIP method seem like the modern-day version of the spacer gif? There is more to the spacer image... About the hook: An image element can be printed (good thing for a logo) and can even scale. About hiding the text: Unlike Richard's technique, one does not lose the text in the heading when images are off. http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip_5.asp Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com On 10/10/05, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Czeiger wrote: Doing it this way IS good branding. It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will know what I'm talking about... Good point. This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of control (image source and size) and makes the logo clickable. h1a title=Company home page href=/img src=clear.gif alt= //aCompany Name/h1 [1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp /plug ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
Nice! I wish I had thought of scaling screenshots to percent width, it looks better and would have saved me a lot of trouble.When I view the site using Safari it briefly renders the unstyled page. I haven't noticed this behavior before. Perhaps it's the @import?Steve Ferguson - http://illumit.comOn Oct 9, 2005, at 10:48 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:I just (hopefully) finished a somewhat complex layout. It's liquid, and has max-width for all the good browsers. As for IE, it has some _javascript_ that forces IE to implement max-width. After that, it's just an untamed liquid layout for the IE users without _javascript_... who probably don't have big screens. My intention is for this to be "robust" from 600 px wide and up. I don't know how it behaves in non-pc browsers, though. Site check? http://liquid.rdpdesign.com -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
Re: [WSG] DW 8 standards
Buddy Quaid said: As an avid user of Dreamweaver everyday, I can tell you that Dreamweaver is great for compliant sites. It has a lot of built in tools like a validator that validates to the spec of your current DTD. Are you talking about DW8? DWMX 2004 does not validate HTML 4, it uses it's own internal spec which is HTML 3.2 with common extensions. Try using scope=row on any table cell in a stock install, and you'll see what I mean. Speaking of tables, if anyone knows how to create a rowgroup (a.k.a tbody) from the design view (which doesn't select tr's) can you please contact me off-list. kind regards Terrence Woood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Vicki Berry said: I've just gotta say... this is fantastic. Derek, can you update your examoples to use fieldsets instead of divs to group the form controls together? kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] off-topic: RSS Feeders
Hi All Sorry about this off-topic post and you can certainly reply off line to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED]. I am behind the learning curve with RSS aggregators and would like to know if someone could recommend a good desktop RSS application that would also tie in with ipod or cell phones for reading reports offline. This group always is a great resource for information. Thanks Ted www.tdrake.net
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: Derek, can you update your examoples to use fieldsets instead of divs to group the form controls together? I do use fieldsets to group form controls together but in most cases, there is one fieldset around all the items in one form - the divs are there to provide additional style hooks to create CSS based form layouts and to allow me to create rows without using tables. Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying here? Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Derek Featherstone said: the divs are there to provide additional style hooks[...] to create rows without using tables. You have not misinterpeted what I was saying, sorry my email is a little terse today.I would've have emailed you off-list but couldn't find your email anywhere (within my 3 second attention span =) I guess my point is that if you need to create 'rows' of form controls, then isn't this what the fieldset element is for? I'm figuring these examples will be influential for newbies and so it would be nice if the examples used fieldset as it is intended instead of divs, and you would only need an addtional rule to style the border. pedantic or semantic you decide =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Hi Terrance A fieldset should contain a set of similar inputs, such as the users personal information, a fieldset for creditcard information, shipping address, etc. It would defeat the coordinating purpose to use a fieldset randomly to create rows or columns. That said, you could set a width to a fieldset and float the fieldsets to create a columnar form. Ted www.tdrake.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terrence Wood Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org Derek Featherstone said: the divs are there to provide additional style hooks[...] to create rows without using tables. You have not misinterpeted what I was saying, sorry my email is a little terse today.I would've have emailed you off-list but couldn't find your email anywhere (within my 3 second attention span =) I guess my point is that if you need to create 'rows' of form controls, then isn't this what the fieldset element is for? I'm figuring these examples will be influential for newbies and so it would be nice if the examples used fieldset as it is intended instead of divs, and you would only need an addtional rule to style the border. pedantic or semantic you decide =) kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
On 10/10/05, Steve Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice! I wish I had thought of scaling screenshots to percent width, it looks better and would have saved me a lot of trouble. When I view the site using Safari it briefly renders the unstyled page. I haven't noticed this behavior before. Perhaps it's the @import? Steve Ferguson - http://illumit.com Sounds like FOUC. I'll try to fix that... eventually. Thanks. -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com
RE: [WSG] site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
FOUC? an empty script tag will do it, ie: script type=text/javascript/script (after the styles are imported / included iirc...) Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Drake, Ted C. said:
A fieldset should contain a set of similar inputs[...] It would defeat
the coordinating purpose to use a fieldset randomly to create rows or
columns.
Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the
source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek.
If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra
div's try this:
html
style
label {
display:block;
width: 10em;
position:relative;
padding: 0.2em;
}
input {
position: absolute;
left: 11em;
width: 15em;
}
label em {
position: absolute;
left:23em;
width: 100%;
color: red;
}
/style
form
fieldset
legendUser Details/legend
label for=unameUsername
emmust not contain spaces/em
input id=uname type=text name=uname value= /
/label
label for=emailEmail Address
input id=email type=text name=email value= /
/label
label for=fnameFirst Name
emmust not be blank/em
input id=fname type=text name=fname value= /
/label
label for=lnameLast Name
input id=lname type=text name=lname value= /
/label
/fieldset
/form
/html
--
kind regards
Terrence Wood.
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Re: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
Terrence Wood wrote: If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra div's try this: label for=unameUsername emmust not contain spaces/em input id=uname type=text name=uname value= / /label I'd prefer to go with explicit labeling rather than implicit labeling, but I believe with this layout it doesn't really matter... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] simplyaccessible.org
On 10/11/05, Terrence Wood wrote: Agreed, you are absolutely correct. Doh! I didn't acutally check the source code, no wonder my earlier post was confusing. Sorry Derek. No worries... If anyone *is* interested in replicating Dereks layout without the extra div's try this: snip / for what it's worth - I did try using that at certain points, but generally preferred to add in explicit divs to provide another hook for styling. YMMV - I also preferred to place each row in a block level element so that without author styles each form field and its label is still on a row of its own, though that use case may not be as important. Now then, I'd better get back to it so that I can post the second round of examples... :) Cheers, Derek. -- Derek Featherstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 613-599-9784 1-866-932-4878 (toll-free in North America) Web Development: http://www.furtherahead.com Personal:http://www.boxofchocolates.ca ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Safari FOUC was site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com
On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 19:45:07 -0400, Christian Montoya wrote: Sounds like FOUC. I'll try to fix that... eventually. Thanks. Well, if you succeed, do publicise it! I haven't yet managed to kill the Safari FOUC :( warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/ Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] :after/:before used for layout
Zach Inglis wrote: I wanted to know your opinion on my post http://www.zachinglis.com/ websites/website/before-sliding-doors/. Interesting. I've been playing with :after lately, although not for anything serious. I've had some problems with positioning in Gecko. Opera is doing fine. Would be nice to see how things turn out at your end. My little 'game' is at http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/molly_1_06.html (just hover down the line of 'dead herrings'.) Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE BG Image Bug
One of my sites is triggering a bug in IE where a background image loads and displays perfectly but dissapears after it has scrolled of the page. If you scroll all the way to the bottom and then return to the top of the page, the bg image is no longer there. Any idea what this bug is? Regards, Stuart ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Firefox caption madness
I'm getting a weird problem when I try and absolutely position something
in a table caption. It all works fine in IE, but in Firefox if I try the
page below the caption is only as wide as the first cell in the table.
If I remove the display:block; on the caption then the caption is
the full width of the table but the absolutely positioned em element
is in the top left of the page rather than of the caption element. Any
one have any ideas on what's going on here?
Jake
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1 /
titleAnnual Report/title
style type=text/css
!--
caption {
text-align:left;
margin:0;
padding:0 0 0 45px;
position:relative;
width:535px;
Display:block;
}
caption h5 em {
position:absolute;
left:0;
top:0;
width:40px;
height:40px;
color:#FFF;
text-align:center;
display:block;
background-color:#111;
font-style:normal;
font-size:x-small;
padding:2px;
}
/style
/head
body
table border=1 cellpadding=0
cellspacing=0captionh5emTable 3.1/em Performance
results:/h5 strongPerformance indicators and actual
performance:/strong
processing responses to ministerial correspondence, 2003ndash;04 and
2004ndash;05/caption
tr
th valign=toppstrong nbsp;/strong/p/th
th valign=toppstrong nbsp;/strong/p/th
th colspan=2 valign=topp align=centerstrongResult
/strong/p/th
/tr
tr
th valign=toppstrongPerformance indicator /strong/p/th
th valign=topp align=rightstrongTarget
/strong/p/th
th valign=topp align=rightstrong2003ndash;04
/strong/p/th
th valign=topp align=rightstrong2004ndash;05
/strong/p/th
/tr/table
/body/html
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