Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
David, we use duckbills or manta rays exclusively here in the sandy loam soils of Leelanau County because of high failure rate With helicals in sand. I like the ductile 11" manta ray for apples and the 6" inch aluminum or ductile for rocky soil in grapes. Whenever we have a helical fail in an old vineyard a duckbill is used to replace it. Hope this helps. Kevin J. VerSnyder VerSnyder Orchards Lake Leelanau, MI 49653 > On Mar 30, 2017, at 4:30 PM, David Kollas wrote: > >Does anyone have experience with duckbill-type earth anchors for row-ends > in trellis orchard or vineyard? > >Compacted glacial till is a common feature below about 18-20 inches here. > I am looking for anchoring against > possibly as much as 2000 pounds force. Can aluminum duckbills be driven into > glacial till? Does galvanized cable > rust out after a few years? Other important observations? I didn’t > mention that the soils here are abundantly > supplied with a wide range of stone sizes and types. > > David Kollas > Kollas Orchard > Tolland, CT > > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.com > http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
I am in the 8th year of 3 year staggered planting growth of a Tall Spindle Apple Orchard. The Planted Area is about 2.5 acres containing 1750 trees. As a first time grower in a VERY windy/blustery location, I did not want to deal with movement or collapse. Hence I chose 14ft long treated Yellow southern Pine 5-6 Posts driven 4 feet into the ground by a hydraulic ram. We were very careful to keep the rows stright and posts Plumb. Posts are spaced to allow 10 trees between them @ 3 ft spacing per tree. This left 10 feet of post to support 4 wires each helping the trees to withstand wind pressure. The end supports for each row are pinned @ about 8ft to anchor posts driven 4 ft into the ground & secured with guide wires @ 45 degree angles. This created an equalateral triangle at each end offering very strong, stable support. The wire is high tensile 12 guage fence wire. All wires have been tightened by hand with a wire stretcher, using grepples and two leaded crimps on each tail. There has been little change in the wire tightness ie slack. In 2015 we produced 55,000lbs of apples in a not yet mature Orchard. We are striving for about 400 more bushels or 56 to 57,000 pounds as a max. That's a good amount of support from this design. On Sun, Apr 2, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Jon Clements wrote: > George, I can't build anything straight, so I refrain from giving advice > on trellis construction! > > But, we all might find this information useful: > > Constructing a vineyard trellis, Paul Domoto > > http://www.prairiefirewinery.com/Cellar/wp-content/uploads/ > 2016/12/Vineyard-Trellis-Construction.pdf > > > How to Build Orchard and Vineyard Trellises - Book > > http://www.kencove.com/fence/Vineyard+Trellis_detail_ABT.php > > > Orchard and Vineyard Trellis Construction: Part 1 > > http://blog.kencove.com/orchard-and-vineyard-trellis-construction-part-1/ > > > TALL SPINDLE ORCHARD SUPPORT SYSTEMS > > http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/neworchard/english/apples/9trellis.html > > > Experiences with Support Systems for the Tall Spindle Apple Planting System > > http://nyshs.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/1.Experiences- > with-Support-Systems-for-the-Tall-Spindle-Apple-Planting-System.pdf > > > Trellis Support Systems for High-Density Apples > > http://www.hort.cornell.edu/expo/proceedings/2017/TreeFruit%20Weather.% > 20Trellis%20Support%20Systems%20for%20High-Density%20Apples.pdf > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 2:39 PM, George Greene > wrote: > >> David and All: >> >> I remember someone burying 5 foot pieces of telephone poles, cross-wise, >> perhaps 3-5 feet deep at the end of a row. Most of the trellises I built >> in Biglerville PA survived. >> >> I did have a Geneva Double-Curtin grape trellis fail when, after a big >> wind storm flipped up one side of the Double-Curtin grape trellis, the >> terrific imbalance caused the posts to snap off. >> >> Come on where are all of the experts like Jon Clements or others who are >> the experts. I thought that one (or by now several) states had Extension >> Bulletins on this subject. >> >> Be well, George >> >> On Mar 31, 2017, at 2:04 PM, David Kollas wrote: >> >> Kurt and Mo: >> >> Thank you for your comments. >> >> If pull-out is the reason for discarding the Duckbill anchoring method, I >> wonder if a larger model would >> overcome that. The largest Duckbill model is about 12 inches long. A >> second line of “duckbills”, also by Foresight >> Products, is called Manta Ray, and is made for increased resistance, >> installed with hydraulic jackhammer. There >> are also options for stoney soils (ductile iron, hot-dipped in zinc, >> rather than the standard aluminum). However, >> searches of company websites, and telephone contacts, have been short on >> pertinent,applicable value in my recent >> efforts. >> >> The thought of trying to put auger-type anchors in my stony land does >> not appeal to me, and driving >> posts has never attracted me either. Channel iron does seem worth >> trying, but I am hoping to find something >> I could get really excited about. >> >> David >> Kollas Orchard, CT >> >> >> ___ >> apple-crop mailing list >> apple-crop@virtualorchard.com >> http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop >> >> >> George Greene >> 68 Willow Lane >> Wiscasset, ME 04578 >> 207-882-8074 <(207)%20882-8074> >> cortla...@icloud.com >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> apple-crop mailing list >> apple-crop@virtualorchard.com >> http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop >> >> > > > -- > JMCEXTMAN > Jon Clements > cleme...@umext.umass.edu > aka 'Mr Liberty' > aka 'Mr Honeycrisp' > IM mrhoneycrisp > 413.478.7219 <(413)%20478-7219> > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.com > http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > > -- Michael D. Vaughn Owner / Manager Pie-In-the-Sky Orchards
Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
George, I can't build anything straight, so I refrain from giving advice on trellis construction! But, we all might find this information useful: Constructing a vineyard trellis, Paul Domoto http://www.prairiefirewinery.com/Cellar/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Vineyard-Trellis-Construction.pdf How to Build Orchard and Vineyard Trellises - Book http://www.kencove.com/fence/Vineyard+Trellis_detail_ABT.php Orchard and Vineyard Trellis Construction: Part 1 http://blog.kencove.com/orchard-and-vineyard-trellis-construction-part-1/ TALL SPINDLE ORCHARD SUPPORT SYSTEMS http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/neworchard/english/apples/9trellis.html Experiences with Support Systems for the Tall Spindle Apple Planting System http://nyshs.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/1.Experiences-with-Support-Systems-for-the-Tall-Spindle-Apple-Planting-System.pdf Trellis Support Systems for High-Density Apples http://www.hort.cornell.edu/expo/proceedings/2017/TreeFruit%20Weather.%20Trellis%20Support%20Systems%20for%20High-Density%20Apples.pdf On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 2:39 PM, George Greene wrote: > David and All: > > I remember someone burying 5 foot pieces of telephone poles, cross-wise, > perhaps 3-5 feet deep at the end of a row. Most of the trellises I built > in Biglerville PA survived. > > I did have a Geneva Double-Curtin grape trellis fail when, after a big > wind storm flipped up one side of the Double-Curtin grape trellis, the > terrific imbalance caused the posts to snap off. > > Come on where are all of the experts like Jon Clements or others who are > the experts. I thought that one (or by now several) states had Extension > Bulletins on this subject. > > Be well, George > > On Mar 31, 2017, at 2:04 PM, David Kollas wrote: > > Kurt and Mo: > > Thank you for your comments. > > If pull-out is the reason for discarding the Duckbill anchoring method, I > wonder if a larger model would > overcome that. The largest Duckbill model is about 12 inches long. A > second line of “duckbills”, also by Foresight > Products, is called Manta Ray, and is made for increased resistance, > installed with hydraulic jackhammer. There > are also options for stoney soils (ductile iron, hot-dipped in zinc, > rather than the standard aluminum). However, > searches of company websites, and telephone contacts, have been short on > pertinent,applicable value in my recent > efforts. > > The thought of trying to put auger-type anchors in my stony land does > not appeal to me, and driving > posts has never attracted me either. Channel iron does seem worth > trying, but I am hoping to find something > I could get really excited about. > > David > Kollas Orchard, CT > > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.com > http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > > > George Greene > 68 Willow Lane > Wiscasset, ME 04578 > 207-882-8074 <(207)%20882-8074> > cortla...@icloud.com > > > > > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.com > http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > > -- JMCEXTMAN Jon Clements cleme...@umext.umass.edu aka 'Mr Liberty' aka 'Mr Honeycrisp' IM mrhoneycrisp 413.478.7219 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
This year at the Washington Hort Meetings and at the IFTA, Mark De Kleine gave presentations on trellis building and structural integrity for support systems. Check out this article: http://www.growingproduce.com/fruits/apples-pears/dont-underestimate-the-importance-of-a-solid-foundation-in-your-orchard/ Dave Gleason Superfreshgrowers.com Yakima, WA On March 31, 2017, at 11:05 AM, David Kollas wrote: Kurt and Mo: Thank you for your comments. If pull-out is the reason for discarding the Duckbill anchoring method, I wonder if a larger model would overcome that. The largest Duckbill model is about 12 inches long. A second line of “duckbills”, also by Foresight Products, is called Manta Ray, and is made for increased resistance, installed with hydraulic jackhammer. There are also options for stoney soils (ductile iron, hot-dipped in zinc, rather than the standard aluminum). However, searches of company websites, and telephone contacts, have been short on pertinent,applicable value in my recent efforts. The thought of trying to put auger-type anchors in my stony land does not appeal to me, and driving posts has never attracted me either. Channel iron does seem worth trying, but I am hoping to find something I could get really excited about. David Kollas Orchard, CT ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
David and All: I remember someone burying 5 foot pieces of telephone poles, cross-wise, perhaps 3-5 feet deep at the end of a row. Most of the trellises I built in Biglerville PA survived. I did have a Geneva Double-Curtin grape trellis fail when, after a big wind storm flipped up one side of the Double-Curtin grape trellis, the terrific imbalance caused the posts to snap off. Come on where are all of the experts like Jon Clements or others who are the experts. I thought that one (or by now several) states had Extension Bulletins on this subject. Be well, George > On Mar 31, 2017, at 2:04 PM, David Kollas wrote: > > Kurt and Mo: > > Thank you for your comments. > > If pull-out is the reason for discarding the Duckbill anchoring > method, I wonder if a larger model would > overcome that. The largest Duckbill model is about 12 inches long. A second > line of “duckbills”, also by Foresight > Products, is called Manta Ray, and is made for increased resistance, > installed with hydraulic jackhammer. There > are also options for stoney soils (ductile iron, hot-dipped in zinc, rather > than the standard aluminum). However, > searches of company websites, and telephone contacts, have been short on > pertinent,applicable value in my recent > efforts. > >The thought of trying to put auger-type anchors in my stony land > does not appeal to me, and driving > posts has never attracted me either. Channel iron does seem worth trying, > but I am hoping to find something > I could get really excited about. > > David > Kollas Orchard, CT > > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.com > http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop George Greene 68 Willow Lane Wiscasset, ME 04578 207-882-8074 cortla...@icloud.com ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
David, I use these, and they work great. I have no idea how they would work in your situation: http://www.wilsonirr.com/ecommerce/trellis/anchoring/screw-anc-36-hvy-8-disc-hv-rod.php You screw them into the ground using a tool that mounts on a 3 point auger rig: http://www.wilsonirr.com/ecommerce/trellis/anchoring/anchor-insert-tool-2-3-4-x-5-3.php On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 12:04 PM, David Kollas wrote: > Kurt and Mo: > > Thank you for your comments. > > If pull-out is the reason for discarding the Duckbill > anchoring method, I wonder if a larger model would > overcome that. The largest Duckbill model is about 12 inches long. A > second line of “duckbills”, also by Foresight > Products, is called Manta Ray, and is made for increased resistance, > installed with hydraulic jackhammer. There > are also options for stoney soils (ductile iron, hot-dipped in zinc, > rather than the standard aluminum). However, > searches of company websites, and telephone contacts, have been short on > pertinent,applicable value in my recent > efforts. > > The thought of trying to put auger-type anchors in my stony > land does not appeal to me, and driving > posts has never attracted me either. Channel iron does seem worth > trying, but I am hoping to find something > I could get really excited about. > > David > Kollas Orchard, CT > > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.com > http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
Kurt and Mo: Thank you for your comments. If pull-out is the reason for discarding the Duckbill anchoring method, I wonder if a larger model would overcome that. The largest Duckbill model is about 12 inches long. A second line of “duckbills”, also by Foresight Products, is called Manta Ray, and is made for increased resistance, installed with hydraulic jackhammer. There are also options for stoney soils (ductile iron, hot-dipped in zinc, rather than the standard aluminum). However, searches of company websites, and telephone contacts, have been short on pertinent,applicable value in my recent efforts. The thought of trying to put auger-type anchors in my stony land does not appeal to me, and driving posts has never attracted me either. Channel iron does seem worth trying, but I am hoping to find something I could get really excited about. David Kollas Orchard, CT ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
David Duckbills have not worked for us. We've not been able to get screw in anchors past the rock. 4'-5' x 3" channel iron often takes my 60,000 lb excavator to pull out of the ground. Broken regular hard steel tow chain trying to pull them out. That said, if not driven deep so as to only be an inch or two above soil they are wicked on tire sidewalls. We've been using 4' x 5" pt posts driven in as far as possible lately, but I like the channel iron especially if all you have is a twenty pound sledge and a younger guy to drive them. Mo Tougas On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 4:47 PM, Kurt W. Alstede wrote: > Hello David, > > We only use the screw in anchors on our trellis structures when they are > needed. We have very similar soil types to you here in Northwest New > Jersey. Years ago we tried the drive in duck bills and they easily pulled > out of the soil and did not work. I just don't think that there is enough > surface area under the ground to withstand the force that they must > withstand. > > I hope that this information is helpful. > > Best, > > Kurt > > Kurt W. Alstede > General Manager, > Alstede Farms, LLC > P.O. Box 278 > 1 Alstede Farms Lane, > Chester, New Jersey 07930 > United States of America > > Tel: 908-879-7189 > Fax: 908-879-7815 > www.alstedefarms.com > > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: apple-crop [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.com] On Behalf > Of David Kollas > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 4:31 PM > To: Apple-Crop discussion list > Subject: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors > > Does anyone have experience with duckbill-type earth anchors for > row-ends in trellis orchard or vineyard? > > Compacted glacial till is a common feature below about 18-20 > inches here. I am looking for anchoring against possibly as much as 2000 > pounds force. Can aluminum duckbills be driven into glacial till? Does > galvanized cable > rust out after a few years? Other important observations? I didn’t > mention that the soils here are abundantly > supplied with a wide range of stone sizes and types. > > David Kollas > Kollas Orchard > Tolland, CT > > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.com > http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.com > http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
Hello David, We only use the screw in anchors on our trellis structures when they are needed. We have very similar soil types to you here in Northwest New Jersey. Years ago we tried the drive in duck bills and they easily pulled out of the soil and did not work. I just don't think that there is enough surface area under the ground to withstand the force that they must withstand. I hope that this information is helpful. Best, Kurt Kurt W. Alstede General Manager, Alstede Farms, LLC P.O. Box 278 1 Alstede Farms Lane, Chester, New Jersey 07930 United States of America Tel: 908-879-7189 Fax: 908-879-7815 www.alstedefarms.com -Original Message- From: apple-crop [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.com] On Behalf Of David Kollas Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 4:31 PM To: Apple-Crop discussion list Subject: [Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors Does anyone have experience with duckbill-type earth anchors for row-ends in trellis orchard or vineyard? Compacted glacial till is a common feature below about 18-20 inches here. I am looking for anchoring against possibly as much as 2000 pounds force. Can aluminum duckbills be driven into glacial till? Does galvanized cable rust out after a few years? Other important observations? I didn’t mention that the soils here are abundantly supplied with a wide range of stone sizes and types. David Kollas Kollas Orchard Tolland, CT ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
[Apple-Crop] Soil Anchors
Does anyone have experience with duckbill-type earth anchors for row-ends in trellis orchard or vineyard? Compacted glacial till is a common feature below about 18-20 inches here. I am looking for anchoring against possibly as much as 2000 pounds force. Can aluminum duckbills be driven into glacial till? Does galvanized cable rust out after a few years? Other important observations? I didn’t mention that the soils here are abundantly supplied with a wide range of stone sizes and types. David Kollas Kollas Orchard Tolland, CT ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.com http://virtualorchard.com/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop