Re: [cayugabirds-l] English bird names

[Kenneth V. Rosenberg]

Sorry!  I meant to say go to 9:40!

Ken Rosenberg (he/him/his)
Applied Conservation Scientist, Retired
Cornell Lab of Ornithology
k...@cornell.edu
Cell: 607-342-4594


From: t...@ottcmail.com 
Date: Monday, November 6, 2023 at 12:55 PM
To: Kenneth V. Rosenberg 
Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L 
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] English bird names
Initially I was confused by Ken's link ,but starting at 9:40 if becomes 
relevant and funny.

Alicia

On 11/6/2023 11:10 AM, Kenneth V. Rosenberg wrote:
At least topic is getting some attention!

Ken


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ0nVxD2Nck





Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 6, 2023, at 10:09 AM, Alicia Plotkin 
 wrote:
 The full Committee Report with its recommendations 
here.
  It's easy to read & has some interesting material not included in the public 
statement put up on the web page.

The Committee seems not to have considered the question of costs that 
individual birders might bear, but for the AOS itself it found (pp 25-26):

Administrative support for this step will not be trivial. For the public 
comment period, interactive
platform(s) will need to be set up in order to moderate and accept the desired 
input. For
broadcasting new names and general publicity, substantial investment will 
likely need to be
made for setting up workflows to track and manage web and social media 
communications,
publish press releases, and handle media relations. ...
We recognize this process is potentially costly. If the cost is prohibitive, 
then partnerships with
other bird-focused organizations may be a step to consider. Different 
organizations could pool
resources to implement each step of the public engagement process and take 
ownership of
different steps in the workflow. This collaboration will add another layer of 
complexity in project
management and require time for strategic planning discussions (e.g., 
reconciling institutional
priorities, actively facilitating dynamics to ensure different groups do not 
feel differently treated
because of what they might be able to contribute).

In answer to John's other question, the committee recommended as follows on pp 
9-10:

The committee is also not making recommendations on scientific names. As in all 
of
zoology, avian scientific naming procedures follow the International Code of 
Zoological
Nomenclature (ICZN), which is beyond the purview of the AOS. The International
Commission on Zoological Nomenclature recently established its position 
opposing the
use of ethical reasons alone to justify the renaming of scientific Latin names 
of taxa.
So if this is indeed how it play's out, wilsonii can continue as a species name 
for the Cuban Kite (so long as it survives) and Wilson's Plover.  However the 
genus Wilsonii disappeared when based on genetic studies, Hooded Warbler was 
moved to Setophaga and Wilson's & Canada were placed in Cardellina in 2011.

Alicia
On 11/6/2023 7:45 AM, John Gregoire wrote:
Thanks for that. A couple of issues. One is the resulting heavy cost of change, 
Think checklists,alphanumeric codes, field guides are three that immediately 
come to mind. When we did the second printing of the National Geo guide, we 
opted to new editions and not an errata list of changes. My plant guides are 
already full of redactions and pen/ink changes.
Second is the question of not changing scientific names. Does this mean that 
the Wilsonia will remain intact?
John

On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 7:12 AM Linda Orkin 
mailto:wingmagi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Very interesting Irene. Thank you for providing this document!

Linda Orkin


On Nov 5, 2023, at 2:04 PM, Irene Liu 
mailto:il...@cornell.edu>> wrote:

Hi everyone, I was a member of the ad hoc English Bird Names committee. Great 
to read everyone's comments and to know that people are reflecting on the 
recommendations we wrote. I encourage those wondering about why we endorsed 
removing all eponyms, including eponyms honoring people who made important 
contributions to ornithology, to read our justification for that particular 
recommendation here: here: 
https://americanornithology.org/about/english-bird-names-project/english-bird-names-committee-recommendations/#justification

Apologies if I'm duplicating anyone else's response. I receive the digest and 
so am not reading messages in real time.

Cheers,
Irene Liu
Ithaca, NY
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] English bird names

[tess]

Initially I was confused by Ken's link ,but starting at 9:40 if becomes 
relevant and funny.

Alicia


On 11/6/2023 11:10 AM, Kenneth V. Rosenberg wrote:
> At least topic is getting some attention!
>
> Ken
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ0nVxD2Nck
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 6, 2023, at 10:09 AM, Alicia Plotkin  wrote:
>>
>>  The full Committee Report with its recommendations here 
>> .
>>   
>> It's easy to read & has some interesting material not included in the 
>> public statement put up on the web page.
>>
>> The Committee seems not to have considered the question of costs that 
>> individual birders might bear, but for the AOS itself it found (pp 
>> 25-26):
>>> Administrative support for this step will not be trivial. For the 
>>> public comment period, interactive
>>> platform(s) will need to be set up in order to moderate and accept 
>>> the desired input. For
>>> broadcasting new names and general publicity, substantial investment 
>>> will likely need to be
>>> made for setting up workflows to track and manage web and social 
>>> media communications,
>>> publish press releases, and handle media relations. ...
>>> We recognize this process is potentially costly. If the cost is 
>>> prohibitive, then partnerships with
>>> other bird-focused organizations may be a step to consider. 
>>> Different organizations could pool
>>> resources to implement each step of the public engagement process 
>>> and take ownership of
>>> different steps in the workflow. This collaboration will add another 
>>> layer of complexity in project
>>> management and require time for strategic planning discussions 
>>> (e.g., reconciling institutional
>>> priorities, actively facilitating dynamics to ensure different 
>>> groups do not feel differently treated
>>> because of what they might be able to contribute).
>>
>> In answer to John's other question, the committee recommended as 
>> follows on pp 9-10:
>>> The committee is also not making recommendations on scientific 
>>> names. As in all of
>>> zoology, avian scientific naming procedures follow the International 
>>> Code of Zoological
>>> Nomenclature (ICZN), which is beyond the purview of the AOS. The 
>>> International
>>> Commission on Zoological Nomenclature recently established its 
>>> position opposing the
>>> use of ethical reasons alone to justify the renaming of scientific 
>>> Latin names of taxa.
>> So if this is indeed how it play's out, /wilsonii /can continue as a 
>> species name for the Cuban Kite (so long as it survives) and Wilson's 
>> Plover.  However the genus /Wilsonii/ disappeared when based on 
>> genetic studies, Hooded Warbler was moved to /Setophaga/ and Wilson's 
>> & Canada were placed in /Cardellina/ in 2011.
>>
>> Alicia
>>
>> On 11/6/2023 7:45 AM, John Gregoire wrote:
>>> Thanks for that. A couple of issues. One is the resulting heavy cost 
>>> of change, Think checklists,alphanumeric codes, field guides are 
>>> three that immediately come to mind. When we did the second printing 
>>> of the National Geo guide, we opted to new editions and not an 
>>> errata list of changes. My plant guides are already full of 
>>> redactions and pen/ink changes.
>>> Second is the question of not changing scientific names. Does this 
>>> mean that the Wilsonia will remain intact?
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 7:12 AM Linda Orkin  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Very interesting Irene. Thank you for providing this document!
>>>
>>> Linda Orkin
>>>
 On Nov 5, 2023, at 2:04 PM, Irene Liu  wrote:

 
 Hi everyone, I was a member of the ad hoc English Bird Names
 committee. Great to read everyone's comments and to know that
 people are reflecting on the recommendations we wrote. I
 encourage those wondering about why we endorsed removing all
 eponyms, including eponyms honoring people who made important
 contributions to ornithology, to read our justification for
 that particular recommendation here: here:
 
 https://americanornithology.org/about/english-bird-names-project/english-bird-names-committee-recommendations/#justification

 Apologies if I'm duplicating anyone else's response. I receive
 the digest and so am not reading messages in real time.

 Cheers,
 Irene Liu
 Ithaca, NY
 --
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] English bird names

[Kenneth V. Rosenberg]

At least topic is getting some attention!

Ken


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ0nVxD2Nck



Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 6, 2023, at 10:09 AM, Alicia Plotkin  wrote:

 The full Committee Report with its recommendations 
here.
  It's easy to read & has some interesting material not included in the public 
statement put up on the web page.

The Committee seems not to have considered the question of costs that 
individual birders might bear, but for the AOS itself it found (pp 25-26):
Administrative support for this step will not be trivial. For the public 
comment period, interactive
platform(s) will need to be set up in order to moderate and accept the desired 
input. For
broadcasting new names and general publicity, substantial investment will 
likely need to be
made for setting up workflows to track and manage web and social media 
communications,
publish press releases, and handle media relations. ...
We recognize this process is potentially costly. If the cost is prohibitive, 
then partnerships with
other bird-focused organizations may be a step to consider. Different 
organizations could pool
resources to implement each step of the public engagement process and take 
ownership of
different steps in the workflow. This collaboration will add another layer of 
complexity in project
management and require time for strategic planning discussions (e.g., 
reconciling institutional
priorities, actively facilitating dynamics to ensure different groups do not 
feel differently treated
because of what they might be able to contribute).

In answer to John's other question, the committee recommended as follows on pp 
9-10:
The committee is also not making recommendations on scientific names. As in all 
of
zoology, avian scientific naming procedures follow the International Code of 
Zoological
Nomenclature (ICZN), which is beyond the purview of the AOS. The International
Commission on Zoological Nomenclature recently established its position 
opposing the
use of ethical reasons alone to justify the renaming of scientific Latin names 
of taxa.
So if this is indeed how it play's out, wilsonii can continue as a species name 
for the Cuban Kite (so long as it survives) and Wilson's Plover.  However the 
genus Wilsonii disappeared when based on genetic studies, Hooded Warbler was 
moved to Setophaga and Wilson's & Canada were placed in Cardellina in 2011.

Alicia

On 11/6/2023 7:45 AM, John Gregoire wrote:
Thanks for that. A couple of issues. One is the resulting heavy cost of change, 
Think checklists,alphanumeric codes, field guides are three that immediately 
come to mind. When we did the second printing of the National Geo guide, we 
opted to new editions and not an errata list of changes. My plant guides are 
already full of redactions and pen/ink changes.
Second is the question of not changing scientific names. Does this mean that 
the Wilsonia will remain intact?
John

On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 7:12 AM Linda Orkin 
mailto:wingmagi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Very interesting Irene. Thank you for providing this document!

Linda Orkin

On Nov 5, 2023, at 2:04 PM, Irene Liu 
mailto:il...@cornell.edu>> wrote:


Hi everyone, I was a member of the ad hoc English Bird Names committee. Great 
to read everyone's comments and to know that people are reflecting on the 
recommendations we wrote. I encourage those wondering about why we endorsed 
removing all eponyms, including eponyms honoring people who made important 
contributions to ornithology, to read our justification for that particular 
recommendation here: here: 
https://americanornithology.org/about/english-bird-names-project/english-bird-names-committee-recommendations/#justification

Apologies if I'm duplicating anyone else's response. I receive the digest and 
so am not reading messages in real time.

Cheers,
Irene Liu
Ithaca, NY
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] English bird names

[Alicia Plotkin]

The full Committee Report with its recommendations here 
.
 
It's easy to read & has some interesting material not included in the 
public statement put up on the web page.

The Committee seems not to have considered the question of costs that 
individual birders might bear, but for the AOS itself it found (pp 25-26):
> Administrative support for this step will not be trivial. For the 
> public comment period, interactive
> platform(s) will need to be set up in order to moderate and accept the 
> desired input. For
> broadcasting new names and general publicity, substantial investment 
> will likely need to be
> made for setting up workflows to track and manage web and social media 
> communications,
> publish press releases, and handle media relations. ...
> We recognize this process is potentially costly. If the cost is 
> prohibitive, then partnerships with
> other bird-focused organizations may be a step to consider. Different 
> organizations could pool
> resources to implement each step of the public engagement process and 
> take ownership of
> different steps in the workflow. This collaboration will add another 
> layer of complexity in project
> management and require time for strategic planning discussions (e.g., 
> reconciling institutional
> priorities, actively facilitating dynamics to ensure different groups 
> do not feel differently treated
> because of what they might be able to contribute).

In answer to John's other question, the committee recommended as follows 
on pp 9-10:
> The committee is also not making recommendations on scientific names. 
> As in all of
> zoology, avian scientific naming procedures follow the International 
> Code of Zoological
> Nomenclature (ICZN), which is beyond the purview of the AOS. The 
> International
> Commission on Zoological Nomenclature recently established its 
> position opposing the
> use of ethical reasons alone to justify the renaming of scientific 
> Latin names of taxa.
So if this is indeed how it play's out, /wilsonii /can continue as a 
species name for the Cuban Kite (so long as it survives) and Wilson's 
Plover.  However the genus /Wilsonii/ disappeared when based on genetic 
studies, Hooded Warbler was moved to /Setophaga/ and Wilson's & Canada 
were placed in /Cardellina/ in 2011.

Alicia

On 11/6/2023 7:45 AM, John Gregoire wrote:
> Thanks for that. A couple of issues. One is the resulting heavy cost 
> of change, Think checklists,alphanumeric codes, field guides are three 
> that immediately come to mind. When we did the second printing of the 
> National Geo guide, we opted to new editions and not an errata list of 
> changes. My plant guides are already full of redactions and pen/ink 
> changes.
> Second is the question of not changing scientific names. Does this 
> mean that the Wilsonia will remain intact?
> John
>
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 7:12 AM Linda Orkin  wrote:
>
> Very interesting Irene. Thank you for providing this document!
>
> Linda Orkin
>
>> On Nov 5, 2023, at 2:04 PM, Irene Liu  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hi everyone, I was a member of the ad hoc English Bird Names
>> committee. Great to read everyone's comments and to know that
>> people are reflecting on the recommendations we wrote. I
>> encourage those wondering about why we endorsed removing all
>> eponyms, including eponyms honoring people who made important
>> contributions to ornithology, to read our justification for that
>> particular recommendation here: here:
>> 
>> https://americanornithology.org/about/english-bird-names-project/english-bird-names-committee-recommendations/#justification
>>
>> Apologies if I'm duplicating anyone else's response. I receive
>> the digest and so am not reading messages in real time.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Irene Liu
>> Ithaca, NY
>> --
>> *Cayugabirds-L List Info:*
>> Welcome and Basics
>> 
>> Rules and Information
>> 
>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
>> 
>> 
>> *Archives:*
>> The Mail Archive
>> 
>> Surfbirds 
>> ABA 
>> *Please submit your observations to eBird
>> !*
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] English bird names

[Jody Enck]

I also want to thank Irene Liu for posting the link to the full explanatory
document.  After paying attention to this discussion since the idea first
emerged a couple years ago, I will say that my biggest take home message is
that there is great benefit in having thoughtful discussion of any idea.
Irene's link provides lots of evidence that thoughtful discussion
happened.  When I read the document, points were raised that I could never
have dreamed of on my own.  My imagination was expanded and my
understanding was deepened.  Like many others, I was lukewarm on the idea
at first, and now am very supportive of it for reasons that never would
have occurred to me if I just considered the idea in the vacuum of my own
living room.  The points laid out in the link Irene provided helped me look
at the issue with a different perspective. Having access to that document
highlighting and summarizing a lengthy set of discussions was awesome.
Thanks again for that, Irene.

Also, bird names change every year, following another proscribed process
that most folks may not know about.  Sometimes it is the common name that
is changed, but most often it is the scientific name as ornithologists'
understanding of taxonomic relationships deepens. About a decade ago, "our
warblers" underwent a huge taxonomic rearrangement that included the
elimination of the genus "Dendroica" which was the genus name for a large
number of warblers at that time.  Most were moved into the genus Setophaga.
Wilson's Warbler, which had been in the genus Wilsonia was rearranged into
the genus Cardellina (along with Canada Warbler).  So, John, Wisonia has
not existed for several years!

This year, lots of shorebirds that are familiar to us here in central NY
have been rearranged taxonomically, with some in new genera, and many
rearranged in terms of which ones are most closely related to which other
ones (which ones come first, second, third, etc. in the taxonomic list).

In the birding world, names change on a frequent basis because
ornithologists are trying to get it right.  Most of the time, the "it" is
science.  Sometimes "it" is naming conventions as in getting the Greek or
Latin right, changing plural endings to singular endings, changing an "a"
to an "us" at the end of the species name, etc. This announced change is
just another form of naming convention change that happens quite
frequently.  I like that there is so much communication about this
particular upcoming change.

Jody
Jody W. Enck, PhD
Conservation Social Scientist, and
Founder of the Sister Bird Club Network
607-379-5940


On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 7:46 AM John Gregoire 
wrote:

> Thanks for that. A couple of issues. One is the resulting heavy cost of
> change, Think checklists,alphanumeric codes, field guides are three that
> immediately come to mind. When we did the second printing of the National
> Geo guide, we opted to new editions and not an errata list of changes. My
> plant guides are already full of redactions and pen/ink changes.
> Second is the question of not changing scientific names. Does this mean
> that the Wilsonia will remain intact?
> John
>
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 7:12 AM Linda Orkin  wrote:
>
>> Very interesting Irene. Thank you for providing this document!
>>
>> Linda Orkin
>>
>> On Nov 5, 2023, at 2:04 PM, Irene Liu  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hi everyone, I was a member of the ad hoc English Bird Names committee.
>> Great to read everyone's comments and to know that people are reflecting on
>> the recommendations we wrote. I encourage those wondering about why we
>> endorsed removing all eponyms, including eponyms honoring people who made
>> important contributions to ornithology, to read our justification for that
>> particular recommendation here: here:
>> https://americanornithology.org/about/english-bird-names-project/english-bird-names-committee-recommendations/#justification
>>
>> Apologies if I'm duplicating anyone else's response. I receive the digest
>> and so am not reading messages in real time.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Irene Liu
>> Ithaca, NY
>> --
>> *Cayugabirds-L List Info:*
>> Welcome and Basics
>> 
>> Rules and Information
>> 
>> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
>> 
>> *Archives:*
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>> 
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] English bird names

[John Gregoire]

Thanks for that. A couple of issues. One is the resulting heavy cost of
change, Think checklists,alphanumeric codes, field guides are three that
immediately come to mind. When we did the second printing of the National
Geo guide, we opted to new editions and not an errata list of changes. My
plant guides are already full of redactions and pen/ink changes.
Second is the question of not changing scientific names. Does this mean
that the Wilsonia will remain intact?
John

On Mon, Nov 6, 2023 at 7:12 AM Linda Orkin  wrote:

> Very interesting Irene. Thank you for providing this document!
>
> Linda Orkin
>
> On Nov 5, 2023, at 2:04 PM, Irene Liu  wrote:
>
> 
> Hi everyone, I was a member of the ad hoc English Bird Names committee.
> Great to read everyone's comments and to know that people are reflecting on
> the recommendations we wrote. I encourage those wondering about why we
> endorsed removing all eponyms, including eponyms honoring people who made
> important contributions to ornithology, to read our justification for that
> particular recommendation here: here:
> https://americanornithology.org/about/english-bird-names-project/english-bird-names-committee-recommendations/#justification
>
> Apologies if I'm duplicating anyone else's response. I receive the digest
> and so am not reading messages in real time.
>
> Cheers,
> Irene Liu
> Ithaca, NY
> --
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> 
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> 
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
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> 
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] English bird names

[Linda Orkin]

Very interesting Irene. Thank you for providing this document!  Linda Orkin On Nov 5, 2023, at 2:04 PM, Irene Liu  wrote:






Hi everyone, I was a member of the ad hoc English Bird Names committee. Great to read everyone's comments and to know that people are reflecting on the recommendations we wrote. I encourage those wondering about why we endorsed removing all eponyms, including
 eponyms honoring people who made important contributions to ornithology, to read our justification for that particular recommendation here: here: https://americanornithology.org/about/english-bird-names-project/english-bird-names-committee-recommendations/#justification




Apologies if I'm duplicating anyone else's response. I receive the digest and so am not reading messages in real time.




Cheers,

Irene Liu

Ithaca, NY


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