Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Fair enough On Mar 30, 2016 5:20 PM, "Brian Sheppard" wrote: > This is out of line, IMO. Djhbrown asked a sensible question that has > valuable intentions. I would like to see responsible, thoughtful, and > constructive replies. > > > > *From:* Computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

If the program would merely output 3-5 suggested positions, that would probably suffice. Even an advanced beginner, such as myself, could I believe, understand why they are good choices. Just having the "short list" would probably be quite an educational tool! It would probably even help

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

This is out of line, IMO. Djhbrown asked a sensible question that has valuable intentions. I would like to see responsible, thoughtful, and constructive replies. From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of uurtamo . Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 7:43 PM To:

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

He cannot possibly write code On Mar 30, 2016 4:38 PM, "Jim O'Flaherty" wrote: > I don't think djhbrown is a software engineer. And he seems to have the > most fits. :) > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 6:37 PM, uurtamo . wrote: > >> This is clearly the

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

I don't think djhbrown is a software engineer. And he seems to have the most fits. :) On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 6:37 PM, uurtamo . wrote: > This is clearly the alphago final laugh; make an email list responder to > send programmers into fits. > > s. > On Mar 30, 2016 4:16 PM,

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

This is clearly the alphago final laugh; make an email list responder to send programmers into fits. s. On Mar 30, 2016 4:16 PM, "djhbrown ." wrote: > thank you very much Ben for sharing the inception work, which may well > open the door to a new avenue of AI research. i am

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

thank you very much Ben for sharing the inception work, which may well open the door to a new avenue of AI research. i am particularly impressed by one pithy statement the authors make: "We must go deeper: Iterations" i remember as an undergrad being impressed by the expressive power of

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Guys, please take a day. steve On Mar 30, 2016 1:52 PM, "Brian Sheppard" wrote: > Trouble is that it is very difficult to put certain concepts into > mathematics. For instance: “well, I tried to find parameters that did a > better job of minimizing that error function, but

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Trouble is that it is very difficult to put certain concepts into mathematics. For instance: “well, I tried to find parameters that did a better job of minimizing that error function, but eventually I lost patience.” :-) Neural network parameters are not directly humanly understandable. They

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

It would be very interesting to see what these go playing neural networks dream about [1]. Admittedly it does not explain any specific moves the AI does - but it might show some interesting patterns that are encoded in the NN and might even give some insight into "how the NN thinks". Put

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

I agree, "cannot" is too strong. But, values close enough to "extremely difficult as to be unlikely" is why I used it. On Mar 30, 2016 11:12 AM, "Robert Jasiek" wrote: > On 30.03.2016 16:58, Jim O'Flaherty wrote: > >> My own study says that we cannot top down include "English

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

Or, if it's lopsided far from 1/2, Wilson's is just as good, in my experience. On Mar 30, 2016 10:29 AM, "Olivier Teytaud" wrote: > don't use asymptotic normality with a sample size 5, use Fisher's exact > test > > the p-value for the rejection of > "P(alpha-Go wins a given game

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

don't use asymptotic normality with a sample size 5, use Fisher's exact test the p-value for the rejection of "P(alpha-Go wins a given game against Lee Sedol)<.5" might be something like 3/16 (under the "independent coin" assumption!) this is not 0.05, but still quite an impressive result :-)

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

On 30 Mar 2016, at 03:04, djhbrown . wrote: > > as to preconceived notions, my own notions are postconceived, having > studied artificial intelligence and biological computation over 40 > post-doctoral years during which i have published 50 or so > peer-reviewed scientific

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

Hey Simon, I only now remembered: we actually experimented on the effect of making 1 blunder (random move instead of learned/searched move) in Go and Hex "Blunder Cost in Go and Hex" so this might be a starting point for your question of measuring player strength by measuring all move

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

djhbrown, Even from a pure playing stronger perspective, it is not game over yet because there is no guarantee yet for always avoiding sudden entering of holes of bad play, verification by reading is missing and there is no optimisation for better score when winning the game anyway. For other

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

On 30.03.2016 16:58, Jim O'Flaherty wrote: My own study says that we cannot top down include "English explanations" of how the ANNs (Artificial Neural Networks, of which DCNN is just one type) arrive a conclusions. "cannot" is a strong word. I would use it only if it were proven

[Computer-go] Congratulations to Zen!

Congratulations to Zen19X, undefeated winner of the Spring Slow KGS bot tournament! My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/S16.1/index.html As usual, I look forward to hearing your comments and criticisms; though I may not respond for a while, I am about to leave for a week's holiday.

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

My own study says that we cannot top down include "English explanations" of how the ANNs (Artificial Neural Networks, of which DCNN is just one type) arrive a conclusions. If you want to translate the computational value of an ANN into something other than the essential operation that it is

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

I fully agree with Goncalo that it would be worth investigating how one could write an algorithm to express in English what Alpha's or DCNNigo's nets have learned, and a month ago (before her astonishing achievement in March) offerred some ideas on how this might be approached in a youtube comment

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Come on let's all calm down please. :) David I think the great challenge is in having good insight with AlphaGo strength. Many Faces already provides some textual move suggestions, as do probably other programs. Any program that doesn't use exclusively machine learning or global search, like GNU

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

> no lack of respect for DeepMind's achievement was contained in my > posting; on the contrary, i was as surprised as anyone at how well she > did and it gave me great pause for thought. > Well, you wrote this: > but convolutional neural networks and monte-carlo simulators have not > advanced

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

In my original post I put a link to the relevant section of the MacKay book that shows exactly how to calculate the probability of superiority assuming the game outcome is modelled as a biased coin toss: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/itila/ I was making the point that for this and for

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

"do they have positive or negative correlation?" intriguing question, Petri. Intuitively, we might arbitrarily divide the human population into two groups; one which is discouraged by failure, and the other which takes the Lady MacBeth attitude of "screw your courage to the sticking point, and

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

Since there are only two possible outcomes it pretty much normal. Actually binomial which will converge to normal given enough samples Only thing that cans distort is that consecutive games are not independent (which is probably the case but do they have positive or negative correlation?)

Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

I think the error here is that the game outcome is not a normaly distributed random value. Dmitry 30.03.2016, 12:57, "djhbrown ." : > Simon wrote: "I was discussing the results with a colleague outside > of the Game AI area the other day when he raised > the question (which

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

one has to expect a certain amount of abuse when going public, and to expect that eager critics will misrepresent what was said. no lack of respect for DeepMind's achievement was contained in my posting; on the contrary, i was as surprised as anyone at how well she did and it gave me great pause

[Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo (Statistical significance of results)

Simon wrote: "I was discussing the results with a colleague outside of the Game AI area the other day when he raised the question (which applies to nearly all sporting events, given the small sample size involved) of statistical significance - suggesting that on another week the result might have

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Your lack of respect for task performance is misguided imo. Your preconceived notions of what intelligence is, will lead you astray. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

[Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

now that alpha rules the world, the usual suspects throng of plagiarising copyycat psychopath serial killers are already busy cloning her, but there is a faint chance that there may also be some subscribers to this list who would like to contribute/investigate something to/in AI by way of