Dear Remi,
What are the results of the Connect6 competition
in the Computer Olympiad...
I forwarded the question to organizers. I'll update the web
site as soon as I have the results. Speed chess is also missing.
Thanks for the results, they are online now.
Also: congratulations to
See
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/event_info.php?id=35
Hideki
Dear Hideki,
thank you for the good information.
Good luck for you and your bot!
Ingo.
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Hello,
can someone from the guys in Pamplona please
let us know on which days and at which hours
the games of the Olympiad are played?
Which of those games can be followed on KGS?
Thanks in advance, Ingo.
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Hi Martin,
thanks for the information and the report.
In the abstract you write
...Fuego includes a Go engine with a playing
strength that is competitive with the top
programs in 9x9 Go, ...
I want to support this claim. Over the weekend
I had the fun to watch some free 9x9 games of
Fuego on
Don Dailey wrote:
But odd move numbers always mean black to move. That
becomes second nature very quickly and I personally
prefer the less verbose syntax.
Darren Cook wrote:
I find the B/W very useful: when playing out a long list of moves it is
very easy to lose track where I am. Most
First of all sorry for forgetting the title in the previous posting.
As David Fotland pointed out to me, sgf is of course not suited
for humans to read. See the following example, for the first
ten moves of a game.
copied from sgf
B[pp];
W[qd];
B[cp];
W[fq];
B[dq];
W[jp];
B[mq];
W[kq];
B[hp];
Topic is the question (how) to use (current)
go programs for evaluating human go games.
Lukasz wrote:
I like the idea very much.
But the coding effort is mostly in the GUI so
it depends whether gogui's (or other GUIS's)
author will like the idea.
It has great commercial/popularity
Hello Nick, many thanks for your great engagement
in these tournaments.
Nick Wedd wrote:
I am thinking that the next KGS bot tournament
will be blitz - fast time limits, and probably
small boards. Does anyone have any views?
The next Computer Olympiad is in Pamplona, May 11-18.
When you
So far, only Yamato-san has registered for Nick Wedd's
next KGS tournament (to be held on April 5).
It would be a shame when Zen19 would remain the only
(strong) participant.
Come on, gentlemen: register your engines!
Other question: Might it be possible to find a
volunteer for operating Zen19
Hello,
During the last week (February 10 - 13, 2009)
there were several exhibition games between
program MoGo and some professional go players
from Taiwan (Jun-Xun Zhou 9p; Li-Chen Chien
(12 years old) 1p; Shih Chin 2p).
First of all congratulations tothe MoGo team
for winning one game at
Eric Dunham asked for information on that event.
The website is
http://go.nutn.edu.tw/2009/English/news_eng.php
You should click on the key words in the left coloum.
By the way: Good luck for the MoGo team!
Ingo.
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Hello to all,
in 1979, Christian Freeling (NL) published Havannah,
a very nice abstract board game for two players. It is
a connection game with some territory components.
Havannah had (commercially) good years: it was
in the shortlist for the (German) Game of the Year
in 1981 and 1982 and was
Hello Gian-Carlo,
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
The computer chess forums are ablaze with protests,
because ...
[But] the decision seems to have been cast in stone,
with no amount of protest still being able to reverse it.
I think, this is indeed the case.
But at least YOU would have reason
ibd asked:
what's an usual winning rate for black/white from an empty
9x9 board, black playing first, 7.5 komi? I play 50k games
when starting my program, and I usually get around 60%
winning rate for white. This seems rather high to me, and I
suspect a bug somewhere. Do you have any data
Many lifes, always enough memory space and lots
of good Monte Carlo ideas ...
that are some of my compgo-related wishes to all of you.
Ingo.
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Hello Don,
The reference bot of course does not build a tree, what I'm actually
looking for is a way to produce a medium strength but really simple bot
that does not build a tree and just has a lot of playout magic.
You should have stressed very clearly much earlier
in the thread that no
I am sorry for my typos (with and ).
Of course I meant:
* among the distance 3-paths only those are allowed which do not have all
three steps in the same direction: this rule would forbid only the four paths
nnn, eee, sss, www.
Ingo
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Hello to all programmers,
in computer chess circles there is an unconfirmed
message that the next World Computer Chess Championships
may take place May 11-18, 2009, somewhere in Europe.
In another message by ICGA president David Levy it is
written alongside with the championship the Computer
Question: Have nullmove-concepts been tried
or analysed in MCTS or UCT-settings?
Background of the question: Using alpha-beta tree
search, the (asymptotic) percentage of nullmove cutoffs
may help as an indicator for the naturality or
interestingness of a (newly invented) game.
Unfortunately, it
Hello,
in Deutsche Go-Zeitung, Issue 5/2008, I found a
report by Robert Jasiek, on the World Mind Sports Olympiad,
which took place in Beijing early in October (directly after
the Computer Olympiad).
Most interesting I found a paragraph describing the Go rules
used in that event:
area scoring,
Michael Williams wrote:
Seems like MC and MCTS programs would cope just fine
after that one line of code is added.
Ok, that is a technical answer. But ...
... what does the rule change mean for strengths of
programs - especially in play against (strong) humans?
Would this rule help the
Michael Goetze wrote:
I doubt that this rule has a significant effect on playing strength,
either of computers or humans. After all, the average effect is about
half a point per game, which you probably won't notice below the
level of amateur 6d or 7d.
You are right, and I did not state
Hello all,
during my latest reading in the list I found,
amongst others, the following mails:
Don Dailey wrote:
To summarize, I have found over the years that
just plain CPU/MEMORY performance is the
primary barrier not just to program strength,
but development time.
You must
Hello Don,
thx for all your answers.
I think, I found a website where old programs
(from the 19_80s and early 90's) are listed:
http://www.septober.de/chess/index.htm#
There are also screenshots of RexChess
http://www.septober.de/chess/pics/9102.gif
and Colossus X (by Martin Bryant)
Dear Don,
sorry to step in here, but I can't believe what you
write. So I would like to know some facts.
My first chess program only sold a few copies in Europe.
What was the name of your program?
In which year was it published?
For what platform had it been?
But I came to find out that
Dear Bob,
thanks for your explanations. Now I see clearer.
First, the title is deliberately provocative.
Accepted.
Also, though, the talk is not just about go: some of it is about
formally undecidable games, that computers provably can't play
well (and of course, that humans can't
Hello,
one of the basic problems of go newbies
is their tendency to place the next stone
near to the latest stone of the opponent.
Sometimes this is called the 2-inch heuristic
of beginners.
What do you think about a formalized variant
of Go with one-sided distance-k rule?
Let k be some
Dear Bob Hearn,
it is not what you have been looking for, but nevertheless
I want to ask you if the title of your talk
Games Computers Can't Play is still up-to-date.
I would accept something like
Games Computers Could not play well before 2003,
but Monte Carlo has changed our world.
Ingo
Hi Remi,
thx for your hints.
I am playing 9x9 interactively, with taking advice from
Leela and ManyFaces. The basic procedure is to run
both in a giving position - and making the final choice
amongst their move proposals with my human brain.
So I have some better potential for corrections then
Hello all, two questions.
(i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base
for Japanese rules?
(ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing
in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and
settings should be used to maximise winning chances? (This
Claus Reinke wrote:
I'm not currently in teaching, but I'd be interested to
hear about uses of computer-go in this context, ie,
not so much as a specialist course but as a focus for
programming and group projects.
Let me tell you the experiences in my group at
Jena University. I am in a
During the last few days I have been meditating a lot about
the questiion whether taking into account the margin of
win into MCTS (UCT) may help or hurt.
I do not have a go program by my own, so for the moment
I have to believe what programmers are saying, namely
that MCTS with margin of win as a
Some replies on my original mail indicate that I did not
make clear the motivation of my proposal.
You have to distinguish several scenarii when maximizing
the playing strength/value of your Go program:
(a) auto-play (or play between different versions of your prog)
(a') play against other
Hello Hiroshi,
thanks for the many nice photos from Beijing.
I have a few questions (indeed, I have many, but will ask
only a few of them):
* On which picture(s) can I find you?
* Is Feng Hsiung Hsu (guest of honor, when I understand correctly)
on some of your pictures?
* Is the programmer
David Fotland wrote:
Integer komi has a problem for many MCTS implementations,
since a playout only returns win or loss.
For instance, also in the UTC-implementation of Cameron
Browne's Yavalath, as given under yavalath on the site
http://www.cameronius.com/
Browne had in mind only larger
Some of you may want to stone me for this heresy,
but read carfully before.
When you have MCST-/UCT for Go that can work for
real-valued scores (or at least a version that can
work for three-valued scores: winm, draw, loss),
you may look at Go with different scoring systems.
Example:
A win by
Hello all,
in other games (on other servers) games start with a
komi-bidding procedure.
Only when both sides propose the same value for komi,
colors are given by chance.
In my eyes, for Go it would be useful also to allow
integral komi (7.0 for 9x9, for instance).
Ingo.
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Hello all,
finally the 4th tiebreak game in 9x9 Go has been played
in Beijing: Leela won with Black against MoGo, thus getting
the silver medal by a 3:1 victory in the 4-game tiebreak.
This last game is interesting because it was a win for Black.
However, so far it is not completely clear which
Hello,
Many Faces of Go has won also the 19x19 competition
in the 13th International Computer Games Championships,
with a 100 % score. The silver medal goes to MoGo (only
loss against MFoG), Leela achieves Bronze (only two losses,
against MFoG and MoGo).
Details, including sgf-files, under
Olivier Teytaud wrote here:
... and good luck for both MoGo and Leela for
the silver medal in 9x9 :-)
I saw on KGS that one tiebreak game between MoGo
and Leela was played today: starting time 13:00 GMT,
MoGo with Black starting with 4,3 move, and Leela
winning.
When I understood GCP
Hello Gian-Carlo,
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
Hideki Kato wrote:
I don't know the detail but the cluster (or the connection) had some
trouble and the play-off will be resumed this morning (at Beijing
time; +0800).
Leela has been online and ready the whole night but I still see no sign
of
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
the tiebreak is not yet finished! Place 2 and 3 are still undecided.
Hmm.
In the tournament rules
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/event_info.php?id=20#Rules
it reads
Tie-breaking:
(a) if precisely two participants are tied for a medal place, precisely two
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
I'd have some preference for playing the decisive game
with komi = 6.5, but apparently thats not possible on KGS.
But that should not be a problem, as long as the operators
do not believe in the final verdict of KGS.
I think with komi = 7.5 white
is scoring very
Magnus Persson wrote:
Ingo Althofer wrote:
But ... when White instead of passing continues wC2,
the game should go on with
bB2 wF1 bPass wF2, and now the score is B+2.
Black ignores w C2 and plays F1.
F1 by Black would be a huge blunder, because
then White plays B1 and kills the black
Hello Magnus,
there was indeed a notation error in your original posting.
There you give 13.C1 (see last line below) and not 13.C2
as in the sgf.
Ingo.
I have been trying to see what Valkyria does. But it is a little
unstable when it reads deep at 6x6. It should not be a problem for
His program Many Faces of Go has become winner
in the 9x9-Go competition in the
13th International Computer Games Championship,
held in Beijing.
Rank 2 for MoGo after tiebreak against Leela.
http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/tournament.php?id=180
with table and sgf of many games.
Today the
Gian-Carlo Pascutto replied:
Don Dailey wrote:
4. I believe Leela, at a higher level and with a correction book
would play perfect or very close to perfect on 6x6. This may
depend on seki issues however, it may not be possible for Leela
(or other Go programs) to play
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
Apparently it was ruled a loss for Many Faces of Go. I am appealing it -
there is no reason why the refree has to intervene when the players
agree on the score. The result of the game could be very important for
the tournament result.
Hello,
I looked into the
Hello Magnus,
interesting and strange.
I went through your constructed game (it is repeated here
without the in-between text)
bC4 wD3 bC3 wD4 bD5 wE5 bD2 wE2 ...
... bE3 wE4 bE1 wF3!!!...
... bC1 wC5 bB5 wD6 bB6 wF1!...
...bF2 wC6 bB4!
...wF1 bE6 wF6 bF2 wE3 bD1 wF1 bF5 wF4
bF2 wPass
Erik van der Werf wrote:
...
Optimal play on 6x6 under Chinese rules is expected
to give a Black win by 4 points.
I want to lay open, why my expectation for
6x6-Go under Chinese rules is +2 for Black.
With Leela, I played two games (or game fragments)
in analysis mode, starting the machine
Hello,
on September 21, there was a new exhibition match
between MyungWan (8p) and MoGo (on massive hardware).
They played two 19x19 games with 7 stones handicap,
first a short warm-up with 15 min per side, and then
a long one with 90 min per side.
The short one turned into a loose-ladder
Stefan Reisz is the author of the website
http://www.reisz.de/gohome.htm
There he claims to have a solution for 6x6-Go
with Japanese rules. The outcome of his handmade
analysis is that komi=3 would be fair.
The analysis may be downloaded from the site,
as sgf file.
Does someone here know of
Hello Robert,
thx for the feedback.
Does someone here know of other (documented) attempts
to solve 6x6 Go?
Didn't Erik van der Werf do it under his rules?
He did it for 5x5-Go, see at
http://erikvanderwerf.tengen.nl/5x5/5x5solved.html
Ingo.
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Hello,
does there exist a generalisation of the sgf-format
for rectangular board sizes?
The background of my question is that I would like
to try how MCTS works on small boards, and there
are not so many quadratically ones... (For instance,
I am eager to see what happens on 7x5-board.)
By the
Dear Urban,
thx for the quick reply.
does there exist a generalisation of the sgf-format
for rectangular board sizes?
What exactly do you mean by generalization? You can
use SZ[1] to define the size of your rectangular board.
[1] http://www.red-bean.com/sgf/properties.html#SZ
I did not
Olivier Teytaud wrote:
... I find the following elements interesting:
1) MoGo was seemingly weaker in handicap games...
Was this (feeled) weakness on both sides (giver and taker)
of handicap tables?
2) MoGo has become stronger (and the difference is huge for long time
settings) with more
In November 2007, there was a long night of science in
Jena. My group presented games and research on games.
One of the visitors was Dr. Bernd Bruegmann (professor for
gravitational theory in theoretical physics), who had
been the first to apply Monte Carlo search in computer go
back in 1993.
In the last few weeks I have been investigating
Monte-Carlo (MC) game tree search on a rather abstract
level. Especially I was able to reproduce the
following behaviour of MC in a very clear model:
MC is playing most goal-directed (zielgerichtet
in German) when the position is balanced or when
Hello Gian-Carlo,
Gian-Carlo Pascutto wrote:
There has been discussion here about dynamic komi to keep
the winning rate close to 50%. As far as I saw there was no
clear conclusion about whether that works. Some people argued
that it should not exist and measuring objective winning rates is
Hello everyone,
does someone of you know if there exists some
(software) tool for generating handshaped Monte Carlo trees,
for instance for 9x9 go ?
Such a tool might be helpful in designing new MC algorithms,
for instance new variants of UCT.
Ingo Althofer (using MC + variants in his project
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