date:20170520


Hi Patricia

Am .05.2017, 22:04 Uhr, schrieb Patricia Shanahan :


On 5/20/2017 9:07 AM, Raphael Bircher wrote:

Hi all

Am .05.2017, 16:32 Uhr, schrieb esh1907 :

Maybe we should try to locate and convince people who used to work  
during

Star and Sun Microsystems to rejoin the project?


I think this is the wrong way to go. We can't get the good old time
back. What we need is fresh business blood. Not companies who use
OpenOffice, Companies who help develop the project. Without this we will
face a slow dead. A project in this size need professional developers.

But companies don't com just to put money in, they want something back
(normally). SUN and IBM was a big exception. The point is, we are not
attractive for Companies at the moment. There is no room to make money.
We should start getting attractive for companies.


We may need both. If a company got interested in AOO today, they would  
be presented with the same problem as I'm fighting: a large, complicated  
body of code that seems to have been modified by separate departments -  
just because I find out how something works in writer, it does not mean  
I know how it works in calc.


A retired Sun or StarOffice person who understands how the code is put  
together could save me a lot of time. My current low level objective is  
to find where to put a break point to intercept a double click on OLE  
substitute text. A few minutes of e-mail response from someone who  
knows, or knows how to find out, might save me hours or days. The same  
would apply to the professional developers you want.
I don't think, that this people are already retired, they are not old  
enough. And people from the pre SUN time bring not a load of benefit. Most  
of the code has changed since 1998. AFAIK one of the oldest part is the  
build in file picker (not the native one) He goes back to 199x.


But you are right, the ex people from SUN would be value. If the  
commercial situation of Apache OpenOffice changes, we can maybe get some  
of them back.


But what I want to say, we should not waste the time and try to restore  
the old project. OpenOffice is old, in the IT world very old. Things  
change from time to time. I don't say to scrap the old model immediately.  
Maybe we should invite people from the whole ASF to discuss how a modern  
Office Suite looks like. I believe we are to strong focused on the old  
concept. Sometimes this blocks new ideas and scares also companies with  
new ideas away.


Regards, Raphael


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Re: Bugzilla

2017-05-20 Thread Patricia Shanahan


On 5/20/2017 9:07 AM, Raphael Bircher wrote:

Hi all

Am .05.2017, 16:32 Uhr, schrieb esh1907 :


Maybe we should try to locate and convince people who used to work during
Star and Sun Microsystems to rejoin the project?


I think this is the wrong way to go. We can't get the good old time
back. What we need is fresh business blood. Not companies who use
OpenOffice, Companies who help develop the project. Without this we will
face a slow dead. A project in this size need professional developers.

But companies don't com just to put money in, they want something back
(normally). SUN and IBM was a big exception. The point is, we are not
attractive for Companies at the moment. There is no room to make money.
We should start getting attractive for companies.


We may need both. If a company got interested in AOO today, they would 
be presented with the same problem as I'm fighting: a large, complicated 
body of code that seems to have been modified by separate departments - 
just because I find out how something works in writer, it does not mean 
I know how it works in calc.


A retired Sun or StarOffice person who understands how the code is put 
together could save me a lot of time. My current low level objective is 
to find where to put a break point to intercept a double click on OLE 
substitute text. A few minutes of e-mail response from someone who 
knows, or knows how to find out, might save me hours or days. The same 
would apply to the professional developers you want.


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Re: 4.1.4 blockers (Was: Re: Release 4.1.3 (4.1.4))

Am .05.2017, 12:30 Uhr, schrieb Matthias Seidel  
:



Hi Jim,

That is alright with me...

...if we start working on a 4.2.0 branch as soon as possible! ;-)

Regards, Matthias


Am 17.05.2017 um 17:36 schrieb Jim Jagielski:

My plan is to hold off on accepting this...


On May 3, 2017, at 2:36 PM, Marcus  wrote:

Am 03.05.2017 um 11:54 schrieb Matthias Seidel:

An installer for Windows (and macOS) with an outdated ASF logo is
"broken" (in my eyes) ;-)

80% of our downloads are for Windows, 15% for macOS. They should see  
the

new logo!

the logos are visible just at 2 places:
- splash screen
--> With the modern PC systems these days it's visible for only - hm,  
let's say - 1,5 sec.


- About dialog
--> IMHO a dialog that is one of the most seldom opened dialogs in
OpenOffice.

I don't want to sound too negative. I just doubt that the most users  
will notice this graphical change. ;-)


However, at the end it's the decision of the Release Manager if he is  
accepting this as a blocker.



Apart from that, no code! Just some graphics...
Sure, but every change is a risk. And it should be prevented in  
general when it's not necessary. I don't make a difference between  
code and non-code.


Paranoia? Maybe.
Experience? Yes.

Marcus




Am 03.05.2017 um 00:11 schrieb Marcus:

Am 02.05.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Matthias Seidel:

Am 02.05.2017 um 13:42 schrieb Jim Jagielski:

On Mar 22, 2017, at 8:43 AM, Matthias Seidel
 wrote:

If we decide to get the new ASF logos for the installer, we should  
also
update the setup icons for Windows/macOS and the Intro/About  
Dialog. But
there has been a discussion with Andrea and Marcus whether to  
include

such things or not...

correct, new graphics cannot be a blocker for a release. Except the
existing ones are broken. But this is not the case here.

Sorry, but we should clearly think twice if a change is necessary for
a bugfix release. Every change has its own risk.

My 2 ct.

Marcus


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Re: Bugzilla


Am .05.2017, 19:15 Uhr, schrieb Hagar Delest :


Le 20/05/2017 à 18:07, Raphael Bircher a écrit :
But companies don't com just to put money in, they want something back  
(normally). SUN and IBM was a big exception. The point is, we are not  
attractive for Companies at the moment. There is no room to make money.  
We should start getting attractive for companies.


The only one I would see is Canonical. But i still don't understand why  
they chose LibO.

What other company would invest money in a MS Office competitor???
In addition to the investment in the development (meaning manpower cost  
but also the time needed to get the equivalent features they already  
have in MS Office), there would also be the training of the users, the  
migration of the existing tools and files (especially macros) and the  
problem of the format interoperability with the people this company  
deals with.
That's too much for companies to think about it IMHO. Or perhaps Google  
but what for?


The main problem is, that we have no good reason to invest in OpenOffice.  
Since years, we just run behind MS Office. But we never get beyond a good  
copy of MS Office. License cost free is not a feature. The only benefit  
OpenOffice offers, is that it runs on 3 Operating system with the same  
code. this gives a base line in the program witch MS O lakes. We avoid a  
load of compatibility issue with this.




Is there any company that invests substantially in LibO BTW (just a  
question, I really don't know)?
When I see all the migrations (mostly to LibO because it's much more  
dynamic and they are good at marketing their project), I just see bodies  
(often administrations) who want to cut costs but without major  
investment, they just take it because it serves their cause but I doubt  
there is any will to go further for them (I mean dedicate manpower to  
help the project).


That was a big mistake of the old OpenOffice Marketing. They promote  
mostly the cost freeness. And they promote that you can save the License  
expense. On the first look, this is true, but on the second view id didn't  
work at all. With Open Source you save no license cost, because you need  
the money to bring the project forward.


For my point of view, saving money is a bad reason to use Open Source.



I thought when OOo was given to Apache that the licensing would give  
interest to the project for companies but it did not happen at all. Less  
restrictive licensing attracts most of the devs. This is part of the  
world evolution today I guess: people want more free sharing, or at  
least want to avoid that their code can be used for commercial when they  
give it for free.


The license only don't generate commercial interest. It needs an  
interesting Project for company, and it looks, we are not at the moment.  
At the moment, the OpenOffice Project don't give companies the opportunity  
to make money.


This will probably change as sonn as
- there exist easy ways to do a 3rd party version
- there is a substantial interest of Users investing money.




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Re: Bugzilla

Many companies were affected in the recent cyber attack.
It shouldn't be hard to find a company sick of Microsoft...
Why not Deutsche Bahn or Renault for example?

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 8:15 PM, Hagar Delest 
wrote:

> The only one I would see is Canonical. But i still don't understand why
> they chose LibO.
> What other company would invest money in a MS Office competitor???
>
> So I'm not very optimistic.
> Hopefully someone has brighter clues.
>
> Hagar
>
>
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Re: Bugzilla


Le 20/05/2017 à 18:07, Raphael Bircher a écrit :

But companies don't com just to put money in, they want something back 
(normally). SUN and IBM was a big exception. The point is, we are not 
attractive for Companies at the moment. There is no room to make money. We 
should start getting attractive for companies.


The only one I would see is Canonical. But i still don't understand why they 
chose LibO.
What other company would invest money in a MS Office competitor???
In addition to the investment in the development (meaning manpower cost but 
also the time needed to get the equivalent features they already have in MS 
Office), there would also be the training of the users, the migration of the 
existing tools and files (especially macros) and the problem of the format 
interoperability with the people this company deals with.
That's too much for companies to think about it IMHO. Or perhaps Google but 
what for?

Is there any company that invests substantially in LibO BTW (just a question, I 
really don't know)?
When I see all the migrations (mostly to LibO because it's much more dynamic 
and they are good at marketing their project), I just see bodies (often 
administrations) who want to cut costs but without major investment, they just 
take it because it serves their cause but I doubt there is any will to go 
further for them (I mean dedicate manpower to help the project).

I thought when OOo was given to Apache that the licensing would give interest 
to the project for companies but it did not happen at all. Less restrictive 
licensing attracts most of the devs. This is part of the world evolution today 
I guess: people want more free sharing, or at least want to avoid that their 
code can be used for commercial when they give it for free.

So I'm not very optimistic.
Hopefully someone has brighter clues.

Hagar

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Re: Bugzilla


Hi all

Am .05.2017, 16:32 Uhr, schrieb esh1907 :


Maybe we should try to locate and convince people who used to work during
Star and Sun Microsystems to rejoin the project?


I think this is the wrong way to go. We can't get the good old time back.  
What we need is fresh business blood. Not companies who use OpenOffice,  
Companies who help develop the project. Without this we will face a slow  
dead. A project in this size need professional developers.


But companies don't com just to put money in, they want something back  
(normally). SUN and IBM was a big exception. The point is, we are not  
attractive for Companies at the moment. There is no room to make money. We  
should start getting attractive for companies.


Regards, Raphael



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Re: Bugzilla

About the locate (from the wayback machine):
https://web.archive.org/web/20040610062016/http://projects.openoffice.org:80/accepted.html

About the convince:
IMHO a personal meeting with a German volunteer is best.

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 5:41 PM, Patricia Shanahan  wrote:


> If you can see a way to make this happen, it would be very helpful. Even
> having someone familiar with the source code available as a consultant
> would help.
>
>
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Re: Bugzilla

2017-05-20 Thread Patricia Shanahan


On 5/20/2017 7:32 AM, esh1907 wrote:

Maybe we should try to locate and convince people who used to work during
Star and Sun Microsystems to rejoin the project?


If you can see a way to make this happen, it would be very helpful. Even 
having someone familiar with the source code available as a consultant 
would help.


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Re: Bugzilla

Maybe we should try to locate and convince people who used to work during
Star and Sun Microsystems to rejoin the project?
Perhaps instead of votes users can offer monetary compensation for solving
bugs (many users offering a tiny sum each can result in a reasonable
incentive)?
What about merging in developers from other projects like Gnumeric or
AbiWord?
For sure we should strive to be unique. No point in having two LibO...

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Hagar Delest 
wrote:

> Le 20/05/2017 à 12:10, Peter Kovacs a écrit :
>
>> Our best recruitment base is our user base. The more we use them the
>> tighter the link between user and developer gets, the more probable it is
>> we get people.
>> Community feeling is a strong motivator for doing the right thing.
>>
> Well, remember that the user base of applications like AOO is not the same
> as for other more geek-oriented application in OpenSource field. We face
> mostly basic users who wants things done at no cost and with equivalent
> features to MS Office ones for example. They don't have any knowledge nor
> will to engage very far.
> According to what we see in the forum, it's rather difficult to even make
> them file a bug report.
>
> And people we have, we lack imho skill. And this we need to build. We need
>> to open ways into open office development. Set starting points with view
>> little knowledge and need to slowly guide the volunteers to the deeper end
>> of our projects.
>>
>> Currently we don't have roads like I described above, we only have a fast
>> and frightening jungle.
>>
> Personally, I've very little knowledge of Basic macros (I sometimes
> help/improve macros in the forum) and I'm a fan of AOO but doing code (I
> mean for development) is not in my intention at all, that's too huge a step.
> So, yes, quite a frightening jungle.
> Let's face it: LibO seems to be doing better to get devs (that's how I see
> it from the outside, I don't know how true it is in reality). So what is
> the AOO plan exactly? I guess that committers want to invest their time in
> a project that has a future so that their own work can last in that project.
> Should AOO be focused on stability and robustness (and less on new
> features)? Or should it try to keep up with LibO (at least by implementing
> features not that hard to code and are considered must have in LibO)?...
>
> Getting users to evaluate what is a bug and what is not would be in my
>> eyes a huge step forward.
>>
> This is something we do in the forum. We help them investigate and we urge
> them to file a report when we can confirm there is indeed a bug (some forum
> volunteers even file the bug themselves when the user is not willing).
>
> Of course the next step would be solving them. But for that we can vote,
>> measure or find other ways to promote them
>>
> As said in my other message, votes are cast in bugzilla. However, in the
> forum we did see a clear trend: in the past, users bothered to subscribe
> bugzilla to vote. They don't anymore.  They clearly switch to something
> else (be it LibO or MS Office).
>
> Maybe slicing them up in micro jobs would work for some.
>> Setting up a bazaar another.
>>
>> I would like to take one step after another.
>> And only do things we think that they work with people we have.
>> Because I do believe in that we need to do things in order that people
>> join.
>>
> For sure.
> What people do see is that there is quite few development and little bug
> solving. It does not help to restore trust in the project.
> But again, look at this list: https://forum.openoffice.org/e
> n/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6=17677#p81363
> I raised this issue several times on this list and still nothing. Think of
> how users talk about AOO after having lost files that way.
> I do know that it is not an easy one but it is the kind of bug that
> definitively damages AOO reputation. Finding the root cause and fixing it
> (or changing the save process to avoid it) would be enough to release a new
> major version. That would send a clear message that the community listen to
> the users.
> For the record, I don't have any skills to help devs. However, we spent
> some time with forum volunteers trying to find a hint, but nothing
> interesting so far.
>
> All the best
>> Peter
>>
> +1.
> Hagar
>
>
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Re: Bugzilla


Le 20/05/2017 à 12:10, Peter Kovacs a écrit :

Our best recruitment base is our user base. The more we use them the tighter 
the link between user and developer gets, the more probable it is we get people.
Community feeling is a strong motivator for doing the right thing.

Well, remember that the user base of applications like AOO is not the same as 
for other more geek-oriented application in OpenSource field. We face mostly 
basic users who wants things done at no cost and with equivalent features to MS 
Office ones for example. They don't have any knowledge nor will to engage very 
far.
According to what we see in the forum, it's rather difficult to even make them 
file a bug report.


And people we have, we lack imho skill. And this we need to build. We need to 
open ways into open office development. Set starting points with view little 
knowledge and need to slowly guide the volunteers to the deeper end of our 
projects.

Currently we don't have roads like I described above, we only have a fast and 
frightening jungle.

Personally, I've very little knowledge of Basic macros (I sometimes 
help/improve macros in the forum) and I'm a fan of AOO but doing code (I mean 
for development) is not in my intention at all, that's too huge a step.
So, yes, quite a frightening jungle.
Let's face it: LibO seems to be doing better to get devs (that's how I see it 
from the outside, I don't know how true it is in reality). So what is the AOO 
plan exactly? I guess that committers want to invest their time in a project 
that has a future so that their own work can last in that project.
Should AOO be focused on stability and robustness (and less on new features)? 
Or should it try to keep up with LibO (at least by implementing features not 
that hard to code and are considered must have in LibO)?...


Getting users to evaluate what is a bug and what is not would be in my eyes a 
huge step forward.

This is something we do in the forum. We help them investigate and we urge them 
to file a report when we can confirm there is indeed a bug (some forum 
volunteers even file the bug themselves when the user is not willing).


Of course the next step would be solving them. But for that we can vote, 
measure or find other ways to promote them

As said in my other message, votes are cast in bugzilla. However, in the forum 
we did see a clear trend: in the past, users bothered to subscribe bugzilla to 
vote. They don't anymore.  They clearly switch to something else (be it LibO or 
MS Office).


Maybe slicing them up in micro jobs would work for some.
Setting up a bazaar another.

I would like to take one step after another.
And only do things we think that they work with people we have.
Because I do believe in that we need to do things in order that people join.

For sure.
What people do see is that there is quite few development and little bug 
solving. It does not help to restore trust in the project.
But again, look at this list: 
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6=17677#p81363
I raised this issue several times on this list and still nothing. Think of how 
users talk about AOO after having lost files that way.
I do know that it is not an easy one but it is the kind of bug that 
definitively damages AOO reputation. Finding the root cause and fixing it (or 
changing the save process to avoid it) would be enough to release a new major 
version. That would send a clear message that the community listen to the users.
For the record, I don't have any skills to help devs. However, we spent some 
time with forum volunteers trying to find a hint, but nothing interesting so 
far.


All the best
Peter

+1.
Hagar

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Re: Bugzilla

2017-05-20 Thread Peter Kovacs

Our best recruitment base is our user base. The more we use them the tighter 
the link between user and developer gets, the more probable it is we get people.
Community feeling is a strong motivator for doing the right thing. 

And people we have, we lack imho skill. And this we need to build. We need to 
open ways into open office development. Set starting points with view little 
knowledge and need to slowly guide the volunteers to the deeper end of our 
projects. 

Currently we don't have roads like I described above, we only have a fast and 
frightening jungle. 

Getting users to evaluate what is a bug and what is not would be in my eyes a 
huge step forward. 
Of course the next step would be solving them. But for that we can vote, 
measure or find other ways to promote them

Maybe slicing them up in micro jobs would work for some. 
Setting up a bazaar another. 

I would like to take one step after another. 
And only do things we think that they work with people we have. 
Because I do believe in that we need to do things in order that people join. 

All the best
Peter



Am 20. Mai 2017 10:14:11 MESZ schrieb Marcus :
>Am 20.05.2017 um 06:23 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>> From: Marcus [mailto:marcus.m...@wtnet.de]
>>
>>> absolutely, we need volunteers that would then work on these bug
>>> reports. Assumed they *are* valid bugs and not "how can I do this
>and
>>> that" questions. ;-)
>>
>> yes, right, but that's not what I mean.
>
>maybe, but I was talking about more than just developers. Sure, we need
>
>more but we need also man-power to work on the additional reports. 
>Currently we have a large number of them open and it won't get less in 
>the future when the proposal comes true. ;-)
>
>> I mean we need developers who fix the bugs. And there are two
>problems:
>>
>> (a)
>> We do not have enough developers (ok, we have to see what the future
>brings)
>>
>> (b)
>> The existing developers work voluntarily and do what they want - how
>do we get them to fix _specific_ bugs?
>> Please understand what I mean: there are issues (respectively bug
>reports) that are important for the users, but not interesting for the
>developers. How do we motivate developers to work on _these_ issues?
>
>In project of volunteers we haven't hard arguments to say what one
>"has" 
>to do (like salary, promotion, more things that work well in the
>private 
>economy business).
>
>But in general, I would also expect that there is a base of 
>self-motivation and an eye for the important things.
>
>> btw:
>> A spontaneous suggestion for (b)
>>
>> We could put 50 issues to vote for each release of OO separately and
>fix the 10 which get the most votes from users.
>> By this I do not mean to fix only 10 bugs per release, but the
>developer's willingness to fix 10 specific bugs, which interest the
>users, in addition to fixed, no matter whether the developers keep
>these bugs important.
>
>The votes can be a good start. To generate a list of intersting and 
>valuable (for the users) things to fix or implement.
>
>Marcus
>
>
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Re: Bugzilla

Le 20/05/2017 à 06:23, Jörg Schmidt a écrit :

(a)
We do not have enough developers (ok, we have to see what the future brings)

Well, that's the key point I guess.

(b)
The existing developers work voluntarily and do what they want - how do we get
them to fix _specific_ bugs?
Please understand what I mean: there are issues (respectively bug reports) that
are important for the users, but not interesting for the developers. How do we
motivate developers to work on _these_ issues?

[...]

We could put 50 issues to vote for each release of OO separately and fix the 10
which get the most votes from users.
By this I do not mean to fix only 10 bugs per release, but the developer's
willingness to fix 10 specific bugs, which interest the users, in addition to
fixed, no matter whether the developers keep these bugs important.

Who would cast a vote? Users? I doubt they would engage again in such process. They
already can vote for bugs. Some have hundreds of votes and nothing is done. What
"trust" they could have in a new list to vote on? Or it should at least be a
list of bugs acknowledged to be solvable with the limited resources still at hand.

For the record, in the forum, we tag all the topics that deals with a reported issue, it's easy to spot them, they have the
[Issue] tag in the topic title and the red flame as icon, see this query:
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?keywords=Issue=all==1=titleonly=topics=t=d=0=300=0=Search

They key point is IMHO the motivation from free resources (not very
coordinated). We cannot force people to work on specific bugs. What is at stake
for devs? Fame? Pair recognition? Drilling by improving something big (AOO) in
the meantime?
Users point of view, I see 2 key bugs that are too frequent in the users forum:
- Files reduced to ### (may require core code change linked to the save process)
- Dictionary lost (resetting the profile is a mere workaround). The bug was
closed but I doubt the fix was really one since we still see this very often.

Hagar

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Re: Bugzilla


Le 19/05/2017 à 13:04, esh1907 a écrit :

IMHO good idea.
Our suite should have a "Report a Bug" in Help menu under "About
OpenOffice".

I don't think such option would be first very visible and second very used.


The average user shouldn't reach a cumbersome platform like Bugzilla to
report a bug.

Perhaps the UI could be simplified but on the other hand, it helps to precisely 
narrow the code involved. And even if the report is not well filled-in, 
volunteers afterward can add details.

For the record, there is a tutorial on the forum: 
https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74=13490

Hagar

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Re: Bugzilla