Hi List,
what a unusually excessive thread for this list!
Most times I agree with Al. I'll just add up my $0.02 to participate
in this rally ...
* The code itself should IMO know as little as possible about the
environment it's running in. If I see stuff like if ( testMode ) { ,
which for me
Brian Pontarelli wrote:
I'll reply inline quickly.
I'm coming from the other side of the configuration debate; the side
that says you should have the configuration file which shows whats
happening as opposed to having intelligent defaults which hide
configuration options from the
I think we both agree that configuration is best. In fact I think you
even support environment awareness in configuration system. So, from
that perspective we are solid. The rest is just debating personal
style and developer freedom. I will answer a few things below, but I
think we can
I think we're pretty much done, I do beleive that a configuration should
reflect the environment it runs in, but I think our opinions differ when
it comes to allowing developers to dictate behavioural changes between
environments and shipping code which is never executed.
Brian Pontarelli
as lazy, exactly?
Frank
-Original Message-
From: Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:06 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
Brian,
From what I can see your only real problem is QA on config
: Ian Roughley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement this type of feature in multiple
enterprise applications. However, I would say that it's
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If the techies at DR just had a dev, test, or prod
switch how could they have done that?
How could they do it if they had to change code?
Complex environments require complex configuration management; I'm not sure how
the example
Then the questoin becomes Hows does the developer create a
configuration set when the application is released which uses the
database server which is chosen by the tech support team when things
start going wrong at a later date?
Al.
Dave Newton wrote:
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL
Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: [OT] Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
Brian,
It's always good to get a discussion going :).
The application isn't changed between boundries, it's the configuration
that changes, and the configuration is controlled at each stage
.
Frank
-Original Message-
From: Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:06 AM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
Then the questoin becomes Hows does the developer create a
configuration set
Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: [OT] Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
Brian,
It's always good to get a discussion going :).
The application isn't changed between boundries, it's the configuration
that changes, and the configuration is controlled at each stage
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Then the questoin becomes Hows does the developer
create a configuration set when the application is
released which uses the database server which is
chosen by the tech support team when things
start going wrong at a later date?
They
Message-
From: Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 9:06 AM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
Then the questoin becomes Hows does the developer create a
configuration set when the application
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Imagine the fun of having an app which only sends live
messages when your in production. The QA team run all
the tests they have in a QA labe, they all pass because
the app decides to only use test data, they move the app
and
still maintain a
single EAR being deployed to all environments for any given version.
-Original Message-
From: Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 3:37 AM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: [OT] Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF
And so don't you then come to the conclusion of what is the point of a
dev, test, prod switch when things are set individually anyway?
Al.
Dave Newton wrote:
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Then the questoin becomes Hows does the developer
create a configuration
That's my poing Dave, and if you have code which alters behaviour based
on it's detection of it's environment (dev, test, prod), the code will
care about which environment it's because that determines its very
behaviour.
This means that even if you move a non-production configuration into
Just to follow this on, as I understand it dev, test, and prod map to
configuration sets which are configured into the system at development
time. Therefore the developer determines what the dev, test, and prod
settings are so althought the configuration is in the application it is
not
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And so don't you then come to the conclusion of what is
the point of a dev, test, prod switch when things are set
individually anyway?
*Can* be set individually; you bring up a special case, which would necessitate
a special case
(I've chopped some of the previous messages from the end for the benefit
of those in digest mode).
I'm coming from the other side of the configuration debate; the side
that says you should have the configuration file which shows whats
happening as opposed to having intelligent defaults which
Just to bring it round Dave, were talking about application logic whose
execution is based on an environment setting, so we're not talking about
a base dev-config.txt and production-config.txt, we're talking about an
application where something like a method will only return test data in
dev
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just to follow this on, as I understand it dev, test, and
prod map to configuration sets which are configured into
the system at development time. Therefore the developer
determines what the dev, test, and prod settings are so
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dave, you're heading for a lightbulb moment [...]
If I had a nickel for every time somebody's assumed that about me I wouldn't
need to have people assume that about me ;)
if you have a enum which has the value of dev, test, prod (or
Dave Newton wrote:
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dave, you're heading for a lightbulb moment [...]
If I had a nickel for every time somebody's assumed that about me I wouldn't
need to have people assume that about me ;)
:).
if you have a enum which
--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As I understand it the others are in favour of the
environment dependant enum as mentioned by the URL
James originally pointed to at [...]
Oh. So... I was arguing with someone that agreed with me.
I really have to rethink my debating
I'll reply inline quickly.
I'm coming from the other side of the configuration debate; the side
that says you should have the configuration file which shows whats
happening as opposed to having intelligent defaults which hide
configuration options from the deployer/support person.
In my
I've kind of lost track of the original point anyway :/
Al mentioned that adding environment awareness to JSF makes people
lazy. I jumped in and stated I disagreed and that adding this just
allows people that need it to use it. From what I've gathered thus far
(Al correct me if I'm
and acts accordingly. Simple but
highly effective.
Frank
-Original Message-
From: Ian Roughley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement
.
Simple but
highly effective.
Frank
-Original Message-
From: Ian Roughley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement this type of feature
-Original Message-
From: Ian Roughley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement this type of feature in multiple
enterprise applications
I'm not sure what you see as lazy, exactly?
Frank
-Original Message-
From: Al Sutton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:06 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
Brian,
From what I can see your only
PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement this type of feature in multiple
enterprise applications. However, I would say that it's not
knowing
28, 2008 12:06 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
Brian,
From what I can see your only real problem is QA on config files and
given that how can you you can guarentee that all of your servers will
never have
--- On Sat, 6/28/08, Brian Pontarelli wrote:
[Applications should not have to change migrating across boundaries.]
+1
I am fundamentally lazy. IMO it's worth the (potentially substantial) up-front
costs to remove environment-specific application code wherever possible: it's
more expensive
On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Brian Pontarelli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Your assumption about QA being the only problem is incorrect. It is
environment based. The application should not be changed in anyway when it
is migrated across boundaries. It should be able to determine where it is
http://blogs.sun.com/rlubke/entry/jsf_2_0_new_feature2
I like it. This is one of the features of RoR that I really found useful.
Anyone else had thoughts of doing something like this for Struts 2?
2008/6/27 James Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
http://blogs.sun.com/rlubke/entry/jsf_2_0_new_feature2
I like it. This is one of the features of RoR that I really found useful.
Anyone else had thoughts of doing something like this for Struts 2?
I hope that my answer is not a flamebait, but I think
I've actually had to implement this type of feature in multiple
enterprise applications. However, I would say that it's not knowing the
environment, but being able to change configuration elements per
environment that is important (for what I did, and in rails I think this
is the most
Roughley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement this type of feature in multiple
enterprise applications. However, I would say that it's not knowing
Roughley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement this type of feature in multiple
enterprise applications. However, I would say that it's not knowing
-Original Message-
From: Ian Roughley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement this type of feature in multiple
enterprise applications
-Original Message-
From: Ian Roughley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:59 PM
To: Struts Developers List dev@struts.apache.org
Subject: Re: environment awareness (project stage in JSF)
I've actually had to implement this type of feature in multiple
enterprise applications
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