On 25 Mar 2009, at 03:33, Dave Malouf wrote:
[snip]
Regarding the minutiae question, I see your point about how a
fraction of a
penny per view at your level of scale can make huge differences. I
still
challenge as other people have the notion that ONLY working at that
level is
required.
For some designers his name is probably a curse word, because I have
yet to meet a designer who likes Jakob Nielsen, but in his latest
newsletter he has actually commented about this issue. Maybe he is
following this thread. :)
Nielsen argues a third way. I unfortunately don't have the newsletter
Taken from Useit.com's latest newsletter.
www.useit.com
--
THE THIRD WAY: BETWEEN NUMBERS WORSHIP AND ARTISTIC INSTINCT
One of Google's visual designers apparently quit in despair over
having to prove every tiny graphics decision with clickthrough data,
instead of
*takes Jared's strawman and sets it on fire*
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Jared Spool jsp...@uie.com wrote:
So, if I understand correctly, you're speaking in an ideal world, where
everyone already has the data they need when they walk in the room and
everyone is on the same page with that
Ok. I contend I *didn't* understand what you were trying to say. I do
now. We're in agreement.
Jared
On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Alan Wexelblat wrote:
*takes Jared's strawman and sets it on fire*
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Jared Spool jsp...@uie.com wrote:
So, if I understand
Kevin,
Your post is both balanced and wise.
I, on the other hand, am having trouble communicating my position on
this issue.
Shades of blue and widths of borders could well be inhibiting the
crossing of a valley if undue time and resources are devoted to such
0.1% improvements to the
Ah. This I understand. Your point is well taken.
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On 24 Mar 2009, at 02:48, Jarod Tang wrote:
Hi Dave,
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Dave Malouf d...@ixda.org wrote:
Not all forms of production are DESIGN. Engineering is not the same
as
design.
Many companies are examples of engineering success.
Maybe more proper says as some
Another perspective from Graham Jenkin who oversees the work of a
team of designers focused on Google's advertiser and publisher
products - http://www.grahamjenkin.com/blog/
Good reading.
rgds,
Dan
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new
Jennifer, asking me to re-design Google Search is an insane
request. Of course, the complexities are there and it is a tangled
web that needs to be weaved. I have said in almost every post that
this is about continuum and not about absolutes.
But for fun, here I go ...
1) I'd get a group of
how to do it. - Theodore Roosevelt
-Original Message-
From: discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of
Larry Tesler
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 5:59 PM
To: IxDA Discuss
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves
I think some of the gold in a Google Search design going forward
includes:
1. Continued data mining on what people are searching for
2. Looking for patterns
3. Playing with how search results page design could be tweaked to
display smarter results and providing contextual actions based on the
On Mar 24, 2009, at 4:57 AM, dave malouf wrote:
Jennifer, asking me to re-design Google Search is an insane
request. Of course, the complexities are there and it is a tangled
web that needs to be weaved. I have said in almost every post that
this is about continuum and not about absolutes.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Jared Spool jsp...@uie.com wrote:
Actually, my big question is: where does the problem you're trying to solve
come in? Where do you introduce data about what needs to be different? About
what the organization needs to achieve? About the gap between the current
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 12:57 AM, dave malouf dave@gmail.com wrote:
Jennifer, asking me to re-design Google Search is an insane
request.
Why? There are real live UXers working on that problem over here, you know.
:-)
No, it's not insane at all. This is the context of the original post:
On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:53 PM, Alan Wexelblat wrote:
For example, the stakeholders that David advocates putting into that
room are the people who have the vision about what the organization
needs to achieve. It's probably part of their daily conversations and
I would expect it to emerge as part
HI Jennifer, I think you mis-understand me when I say is an insane
request.
I mean that to even begin to do that job requires intimacy with the product
that as an outsider, I can at best pretend to understand. You've
demonstrated some issues below. that doesn't negate my point, but
underscores the
hmm..no good reason sounds probably right.
I wouldn't feel loved if I spent a lot of time reinventing the
button.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40237
How is Google not a design success story? Design goes much deeper than
the interface.
Cheers!
Todd Zaki Warfel
Principal Design Researcher
Messagefirst | Designing Information. Beautifully.
--
Contact Info
Voice: (215) 825-7423
Email: t...@messagefirst.com
Hi Dave,
Yes, of course there is always space to improve a product. I didn't intend
to imply otherwise! Even the Google search results have been changed
recently (e.g. you can now promote, remove, or comment upon result items).
My point was more that one has to take a lot of care with a
Hi Dave,
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 6:41 AM, Dave Malouf d...@ixda.org wrote:
Not all forms of production are DESIGN. Engineering is not the same as
design.
Many companies are examples of engineering success.
Maybe more proper says as some designs in the process of engineering?
Traditionally,
On 21 Mar 2009, at 12:15, William Brall wrote:
[snip]
Collecting Data is a big part of IxD, and like any field with a
science background, that data need not be collected a second time for
the same problem.
[snip]
Actually it does.
Scientists recollect data and retest things - they have to.
On 21 Mar 2009, at 17:43, Katie Albers wrote:
[snip]
How do you reconcile data and design (in its broadest sense) here?
Why do you need to? Why do we have this aversion to simply admitting
that people have non-measurable, but critically important,
preferences and we need to acknowledge
Hi Dave,
On 21 Mar 2009, at 18:38, David Malouf wrote:
[snip]
I think people have missed my point.
I think design is not for or against data, but design should always
be for imbuing human expressionism beyond the measurable. A designer
of worth, merit, etc. should always be encouraged to
What i read from Bowman's blog is not about data or not, it's about trust
between design and engineering. If he had better argument(and sure there
is), he could/should show the evidence instead of complain, else the design
cant find feet in the product development process. More common, it's a
I am a UX designer for Google.
I wish I could dig deep into this discussion with you all, because it's very
relevant to some of the work going on there. Sadly, there are many things
about my employer that I'm not at liberty to talk about -- I'm sure many of
you can understand that. I'll make a
Jennifer, the recent Charlie Rose interview of Marissa Mayer (as she heads
UX across the entire organization, no?) really solidifies that perception.
I've also interviewed folks from Earth and other non-search props that
confirm this. Even the work in Mobile including Android is beyond
When I was running my design group in the midwest, I was always
fascinated by the two groups of clients we encountered. The first
group being those that understood design and its potential to be a
game changing influence in product development... the other being
those companies that think
-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-boun...@lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of Jenifer
Tidwell
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 7:10 AM
To: David Malouf
Cc: disc...@ixda.org
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] Bowman leaves Google
I am a UX designer for Google.
I wish I could dig
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 7:10 AM, Jenifer Tidwell
jenifer.tidw...@gmail.comwrote:
I am a UX designer for Google.
...
* Different product teams at Google have very different approaches to
design, data, research, and soul in design. Some product designs I've
seen there are truly amazing and
This piece by Tom Chi, strikes the balance that I wish I could have
articulated myself.
I hope the OK-Cancel guys keep up being active. I miss them
terribly!!!
Here's the link: http://www.ok-cancel.com/comic/177.html
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted
Jenifer,
Thank you for providing your insider-informed and well-reasoned
perspective.
I'd like to respond to this remark you made about my earlier post:
On Mar 22, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Jenifer Tidwell wrote:
The point about hill-climbing with
data-driven incremental changes is well taken, but
On Mar 20, 2009, at 3:21 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote:
On Mar 20, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Dan Saffer wrote:
Seems like reason enough for me.
So you think that testing 41 shades of blue or arguing about borders
being 2 to 4 pixels to the point of being asked to prove 2 is better
than 4 is a
Data-driven design, though, is not entirely a bad thing, is it?
The whole web 2 approach of getting a basic webapp out there in beta, then
optimising and extending it based on user behaviour / feedback - that's data
driven post launch. Even running tests on paper prototypes, is, in some
respects,
The problem with pure data-driven design (testing for 4 vs 2 pixels)
is that they might be missing the point that the result is only valid
for that moment. Humans are not happy with things staying the same (it
might be part of the our survival mechanism to keep changing), because
one year we might
As Dave M said earier - if you want to research and derive inspiration from
research, or research and live by the data, that is a choice, but I would
argue that one is design and the other is not.
So if the data tells you something and you ignore it, is that design?
Peter
Harry
--
If the 2 versus 4 pixels thing is on a crucial page like the Google search
results or list of adsense ads, surely it's a MUST to test it and let the
data speak? No? or would you redesign the ads, see revenue go down and not
change your mind?
Peter
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Dan Saffer
I think that's wrong. Why can't I continue to measure and change stuff?
In any case, data driven design doesn't mean there's no place for the
designer. Who else will come up with stuff that we can then measure?
Peter
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 11:12 AM, AJKock ajk...@gmail.com wrote:
The problem
@ Peter Can data-driven design predict future design? No, it can only
measure today. Design is more than just testing for today; it also
envisions tomorrow.
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
To post to this list
Let's back up a step here...why does stuff have to be measurable? Is
it no longer possible to assess without numbers? On the whole (and
yes, I acknowledge that there are significant exceptions) the SMART
methodology did design no service. There are things we know or notice
that are simply
Web search in particular is one of the most utilitarian instances of
software these days. Having spent 2.5 years doing search quality / UX
assessment at MSFT, I'm a firm believer that every change in search
should be tested vigorously and that a design team that isn't
enthusiastic about testing
We agree then. My point is not that we don't need design. My point is that
design should be humble and listen to data.
Peter
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 6:18 PM, AJKock ajk...@gmail.com wrote:
@ Peter Can data-driven design predict future design? No, it can only
measure today. Design is more than
Hi Peter,
My answer about listening to data is it depends.
If the data is, your revenue has fallen X% and the data can SHOW that
a design decision led to that fall (as opposed to other contexts such
as economy, politics, quality of goods being sold, etc.) then of
course I'll listen to it.
If the
I think ALL of you are really arguing the same side.
Collecting Data is a big part of IxD, and like any field with a
science background, that data need not be collected a second time for
the same problem.
Do biologists retest basic chemistry in order to make a biological
experiment? Certainly
Data driven business decisions (and the offshoot being discussed here
- design decisions) is a significant movement… much of it being
fostered from engineers and statisticians. The notion that we, the
humans, do not need to know the why, but only what he data tells us
to do is at the core
The reason the 41 blue test is bad, is any one of us would have told
google the right choice for FREE!
That's a false argument, because you're saying that designers should then be
trusted to know what they know and know what they don't know.
Peter
A wise professor once told me that having research is much better than not,
but in the end… once you have absorbed and evaluated all of the data, you
still have to make a decision.
Of course, I don't think anyone would argue that you place the
decision-making with the machines? We've all
I find some issue with this argument. Re-applying solutions to new
problems is not ideal. It goes to one of my pet peeves... applying
solutions from books, that may or may not have a similar context or
problem. I see MBA's and business owners reading books like 'Good to
Great' and then
On Mar 21, 2009, at 12:15 PM, William Brall wrote:
Collecting Data is a big part of IxD, and like any field with a
science background, that data need not be collected a second time for
the same problem.
Science background?
--
Andrei Herasimchuk
Chief Design Officer, Involution Studios
One side question, what do you think about google's new icon compare to old
one?
Cheers,
-- Jarod
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 5:15 AM, Andrei Herasimchuk
aherasimc...@involutionstudios.com wrote:
Posted without comment, even though I very much feel Google just lost an
amazing talent for no good
Yes, over-reliance on data-driven incremental design (DDID) is ill-
advised.
- Customers who use more than one of a company's products tend to be
the most valuable customers in the long run. DDID usually optimizes
one product at a time. The resulting inconsistencies may make each
product
Jarod, I don't like it. I find it to be ..
1) reminiscent of MS
2) too brash and distracting
More importantly it has in no way shape or form improved my
relationship with Google (or diminished it).
I think people have missed my point.
I think design is not for or against data, but design should
Hi Dave,
On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 2:38 AM, David Malouf d...@ixda.org wrote:
Jarod, I don't like it. I find it to be ..
1) reminiscent of MS
2) too brash and distracting
Yes, I found few likes the current Google icon near around. But many people
like the one one, that would be the interesting
Hi:
Re-reading Doug Bowman's post you can really feel his frustration.
Reading between the lines I hear:
* A culture that was born in Engineering (and still very much i that
space - which is what makes Google great)
* A culture that is looking at ways to embrace Design and User
Research (and
Posted without comment, even though I very much feel Google just lost
an amazing talent for no good reason:
http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html
--
Andrei Herasimchuk
Chief Design Officer, Involution Studios
innovating the digital world
e. and...@involutionstudios.com
On Mar 20, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote:
Google just lost an amazing talent for no good reason:
No good reason?
When a company is filled with engineers, it turns to engineering to
solve problems. Reduce each decision to a simple logic problem. Remove
all subjectivity and
On Mar 20, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Dan Saffer wrote:
Seems like reason enough for me.
So you think that testing 41 shades of blue or arguing about borders
being 2 to 4 pixels to the point of being asked to prove 2 is better
than 4 is a good thing? That all design decisions should be driven by
So you think that testing 41 shades of blue or arguing about borders being
2 to 4 pixels to the point of being asked to prove 2 is better than 4 is a
good thing? That all design decisions should be driven by Google's
insistence on data driven design by committee?
I'm gonna go out on a limb
Hi Andrei,
I'm not sure that this is about wrong or right. I think it is about cultural
fit. I am not sure that I could work easily with people prepared to die in a
ditch over a single pixel either. But then again, I'd be happy to offer my
best advice and then see how the result worked in
Definitely what I saw too. A slight misinterpretation.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 20, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr rob...@rhjr.net wrote:
So you think that testing 41 shades of blue or arguing about
borders being
2 to 4 pixels to the point of being asked to prove 2 is better than
Hi Andrew,
There is a bit of religion here, so be fore-warned. In my temple, I
want design to acknowledge the power of soul. My atheist
interpretation of said soul is connectedness.
What I see in the Google-way is dispassionate and thus souless. Is it
successful? can't deny they have success.
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 9:37 AM, dave malouf dave@gmail.com wrote:
So if you want to research and derive
inspiration from research, or research and live by the data, that is
a choice, but I would argue that one is design and the other is not.
Dave, I think I agree. The problem with data
On Mar 20, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote:
On Mar 20, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Dan Saffer wrote:
Seems like reason enough for me.
So you think that testing 41 shades of blue or arguing about borders
being 2 to 4 pixels to the point of being asked to prove 2 is better
than 4 is a
On Mar 20, 2009, at 5:42 PM, Jared Spool wrote:
I read Dan's response as he thinks that *is* a good reason to leave.
(You had originally stated that they scared Doug away for no good
reason.)
Yes, as noted by you and robert, I think that is the case as well. I
phrased my initial post a
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