On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Martin Baldan martino...@gmail.comwrote:
And that's how you get a huge software stack. Redundancy can be
avoided in centralized systems, but in distributed systems with
competing standards that's the normal state. It's not that programmers
are dumb, it's that
On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:22 AM, Max Orhai wrote:
But, that's exactly the cause for concern! Aside from the fact of Smalltalk's
obsolescence (which isn't really the point), the Squeak plugin could never be
approved by a 'responsible' sysadmin, because it can run arbitrary user code!
Squeak's
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
On Mar 14, 2012, at 2:22 AM, Max Orhai wrote:
But, that's exactly the cause for concern! Aside from the fact of
Smalltalk's obsolescence (which isn't really the point), the Squeak plugin
could never be approved by a 'responsible' sysadmin
this is possible, but it assumes, essentially, that one doesn't run into
such a limit.
if one gets to a point where every fundamental concept is only ever
expressed once, and everything is built from preceding fundamental concepts,
then this is a limit, short of dropping fundamental
This has been an interesting conversation. I don't like how it's hidden
under the innocent looking subject `Error trying to compile COLA`
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Martin Baldan martino...@gmail.com wrote:
this is possible, but it assumes, essentially, that one doesn't run into
...@mackenzieresearch.com
To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
For better or worse, both Apple and Microsoft (via Windows 8) are attempting
to rectify this via the Terms and Conditions route.
It's been announced
But, that's exactly the cause for concern! Aside from the fact of
Smalltalk's obsolescence (which isn't really the point), the Squeak plugin
could never be approved by a 'responsible' sysadmin, *because it can run
arbitrary user code*! Squeak's not in the app store for exactly that
reason. You'll
Is that the case? I'm a bit confused. I've read the fascinating reports
about Frank, and I was wondering what's the closest thing one can download
and run right now. Could you guys please clear it up for me?
i +1 this, with the addition that writing up anything remotely
official answer would
that is a description of random data, which granted, doesn't apply to most
(compressible) data.
that wasn't really the point though.
I thought the original point was that there's a clear-cut limit to how
much redundancy can be eliminated from computing environments, and
that thousand-fold
On 3/12/2012 10:24 AM, Martin Baldan wrote:
that is a description of random data, which granted, doesn't apply to most
(compressible) data.
that wasn't really the point though.
I thought the original point was that there's a clear-cut limit to how
much redundancy can be eliminated from
On 28.02.12 06:42, BGB wrote:
but, anyways, here is a link to another article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%27s_source_coding_theorem
Shannon's theory applies to lossless transmission. I doubt anybody here
wants to reproduce everything down to the timings and bugs of the
original
On 3/11/2012 5:28 AM, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote:
On 28.02.12 06:42, BGB wrote:
but, anyways, here is a link to another article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%27s_source_coding_theorem
Shannon's theory applies to lossless transmission. I doubt anybody
here wants to reproduce everything
I won't pretend I really know what I'm talking about, I'm just
guessing here, but don't you think the requirement for independent
and identically-distributed random variable data in Shannon's source
coding theorem may not be applicable to pictures, sounds or frame
sequences normally handled by
...@vpri.org [mailto:fonc-boun...@vpri.org] On Behalf Of Alan
Kay
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 3:10 AM
To: Duncan Mak; Fundamentals of New Computing
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Hi Duncan
The short answers to these questions have already been given a few times on
this list
On 1 March 2012 02:26, Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com wrote:
wonderful. so, in 5 years (put less if you want) i can be sure that my
app can run on every machine on any browser,
and i don't have to put update your browser warning.
No, because in 5 years' time you will be wanting to do
On 1 March 2012 12:30, Reuben Thomas r...@sc3d.org wrote:
On 1 March 2012 02:26, Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com wrote:
wonderful. so, in 5 years (put less if you want) i can be sure that my
app can run on every machine on any browser,
and i don't have to put update your browser warning.
On 1 March 2012 12:00, Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com wrote:
Now if you take things like tcp/ip. How much changes/extensions over
the years since first deployment of it you seen?
The only noticeable one i know of is introduction of ipv6.
Yes, but you can say the same of HTTP. You're
Is this one of the aims?
Julian
On 01/03/2012, at 11:42 PM, Reuben Thomas wrote:
The biggest challenge for FONC will not be to achieve good technical
results, as it is stuffed with people who have a history of doing
great work, and its results to date are already exciting, but to get
those
On 3/1/2012 8:04 AM, Reuben Thomas wrote:
On 1 March 2012 15:02, Julian Levistonjul...@leviston.net wrote:
Is this one of the aims?
It doesn't seem to be, which is sad, because however brilliant the
ideas you can't rely on other people to get them out for you.
this is part of why I am
BGB wrote:
there is also, at this point, a reasonable lack of industrial strength
scripting languages.
there are a few major industrial strength languages (C, C++, Java, C#,
etc...), and a number of scripting languages (Python, Lua, JavaScript,
...), but not generally anything to bridge the gap
On 3/1/2012 10:12 AM, Loup Vaillant wrote:
BGB wrote:
there is also, at this point, a reasonable lack of industrial strength
scripting languages.
there are a few major industrial strength languages (C, C++, Java, C#,
etc...), and a number of scripting languages (Python, Lua, JavaScript,
...),
Below.
On Feb 29, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Loup Vaillant l...@loup-vaillant.fr wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that limitation. I have the feeling however that
IDEs and debuggers are overrated.
When I'm Squeaking, sometimes I find myself modeling classes with the browser
but leaving method bodies to
On 3/1/2012 2:58 PM, Casey Ransberger wrote:
Below.
On Feb 29, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Loup Vaillantl...@loup-vaillant.fr wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that limitation. I have the feeling however that
IDEs and debuggers are overrated.
When I'm Squeaking, sometimes I find myself modeling classes with
Le 01/03/2012 22:58, Casey Ransberger a écrit :
Below.
On Feb 29, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Loup Vaillantl...@loup-vaillant.fr wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that limitation. I have the feeling however that
IDEs and debuggers are overrated.
When I'm Squeaking, sometimes I find myself modeling classes
On 3/1/2012 3:56 PM, Loup Vaillant wrote:
Le 01/03/2012 22:58, Casey Ransberger a écrit :
Below.
On Feb 29, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Loup Vaillantl...@loup-vaillant.fr wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that limitation. I have the feeling however that
IDEs and debuggers are overrated.
When I'm Squeaking,
Inline.
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Loup Vaillant l...@loup-vaillant.fr wrote:
Le 01/03/2012 22:58, Casey Ransberger a écrit :
Below.
On Feb 29, 2012, at 5:43 AM, Loup Vaillantl...@loup-vaillant.fr wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that limitation. I have the feeling however that
IDEs and
What if the aim that superseded this was to make it available to the next set
of people, who can do something about real fundamental change around this?
Perhaps what is needed is to ACTUALLY clear out the cruft. Maybe it's not easy
or possible through the old channels... too much work to
Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Loup
Very good question -- and tell your Boss he should support you!
Cool, thank you for your support.
[…] One general argument is
that non-machine-code languages are POLs of a weak sort, but are more
effective than writing machine code for most problems. (This was quite
.
Cheers,
Alan
*From:* Loup Vaillant l...@loup-vaillant.fr
*To:* fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 29, 2012 1:27 AM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Alan Kay wrote:
Hi Loup
Very good question -- and tell your Boss he should support you
POL is prime thesis territory.
Cheers,
Alan
From: Loup Vaillant l...@loup-vaillant.fr
To: fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Yes, I'm aware of that limitation. I have the feeling
Hello Alan,
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
For example, one of the many current day standards that was dismissed
immediately is the WWW (one could hardly imagine more of a mess).
I was talking to a friend the other day about the conversations going on in
.
or such...
Cheers,
Alan
*From:* Loup Vaillant l...@loup-vaillant.fr
*To:* fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 29, 2012 1:27 AM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Alan Kay wrote
From: Duncan Mak duncan...@gmail.com
To: Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Hello Alan,
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Alan Kay alan.n
duncan...@gmail.com
*To:* Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:50 AM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Hello Alan,
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote
On 29 February 2012 23:09, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
[Recapitulation snipped]
So, this gradually turned into an awful mess. But Linus went back to square
one
Not really, it was just a reimplementation of the same thing on cheap
modern hardware.
But there is still the browser and
On 1 March 2012 02:46, Reuben Thomas r...@sc3d.org wrote:
On 29 February 2012 23:09, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
[Recapitulation snipped]
So, this gradually turned into an awful mess. But Linus went back to square
one
Not really, it was just a reimplementation of the same thing on
On 1 March 2012 01:40, Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com wrote:
On 1 March 2012 02:46, Reuben Thomas r...@sc3d.org wrote:
On 29 February 2012 23:09, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
[Recapitulation snipped]
So, this gradually turned into an awful mess. But Linus went back to square
one
On 1 March 2012 03:59, Reuben Thomas r...@sc3d.org wrote:
On 1 March 2012 01:40, Igor Stasenko siguc...@gmail.com wrote:
On 1 March 2012 02:46, Reuben Thomas r...@sc3d.org wrote:
On 29 February 2012 23:09, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
[Recapitulation snipped]
So, this gradually
*To:* Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:50 AM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Hello Alan,
On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
For example, one of the many current
Originally, the VPRI claims to be able to do a system that's 10,000
smaller than our current bloatware. That's going from roughly 200
million lines to 20,000. (Or, as Alan Kay puts it, from a whole library
to a single book.) That's 4 orders of magnitude.
From the report, I made a rough break
On 28 February 2012 16:41, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote:
- 1 order of magnitude is gained by removing feature creep. I agree
feature creep can be important. But I also believe most feature
belong to a long tail, where each is needed by a minority of users.
It does matter, but if the
,
Alan
*From:* Loup Vaillant l...@loup-vaillant.fr
*To:* fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 28, 2012 2:21 AM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Originally, the VPRI claims to be able to do a system that's 10,000
smaller than our current bloatware
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
On 28 February 2012 16:41, BGB cr88...@gmail.com wrote:
- 1 order of magnitude is gained by removing feature creep. I agree
feature creep can be important. But I also believe most feature
belong
:* Ryan Mitchley ryan.mitch...@gmail.com
*To:* fonc@vpri.org
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 28, 2012 12:57 AM
*Subject:* Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
On 27/02/2012 19:48, Tony Garnock-Jones wrote:
My interest in it came out of thinking about integrating pub/sub
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Dear Alan,
Am 28.02.12 14:54, schrieb Alan Kay:
Hi Ryan
Check out Smalltalk-71, which was a design to do just what you suggest -- it
was basically an attempt to combine some of my favorite languages of the time
-- Logo and Lisp, Carl Hewitt's
On 2/28/2012 10:33 AM, Reuben Thomas wrote:
On 28 February 2012 16:41, BGBcr88...@gmail.com wrote:
- 1 order of magnitude is gained by removing feature creep. I agree
feature creep can be important. But I also believe most feature
belong to a long tail, where each is needed by a
On 2/28/2012 5:36 PM, Julian Leviston wrote:
On 29/02/2012, at 10:29 AM, BGB wrote:
On 2/28/2012 2:30 PM, Alan Kay wrote:
Yes, this is why the STEPS proposal was careful to avoid the
current day world.
For example, one of the many current day standards that was
dismissed immediately is
On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Charles Perkins ch...@memetech.com wrote:
I think of the code size reduction like this:
A book of logarithm tables may be hundreds of pages in length and yet the
equation producing the numbers can fit on one line.
VPRI is exploring runnable math and is
David,
Thanks for the link. Indeed, now I see how to run eval with .l example
files. There are also .k files, which I don't know how they differ from
those, except that .k files are called with ./eval filename.k while
.l files are called with ./eval repl.l filename.l where filename is
the name
On 27 February 2012 14:01, Martin Baldan martino...@gmail.com wrote:
I still don't know how to go from here to a Frank-like GUI. I'm reading
other replies which seem to point that way. All tips are welcome ;)
And indeed, maybe any discoveries could be written up at one of the Wikis:
From: Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.net
To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of DBJr
that sits atop
Just to zero in on one idea here
Anyway I digress... have you had a look at this file?:
http://piumarta.com/software/maru/maru-2.1/test-pepsi.l
Just read the whole thing - I found it fairly interesting :) He's build
pepsi on maru there... that's pretty fascinating, right? Built a micro
Leviston jul...@leviston.net
To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of
DBJr that sits atop lesserphic, which sits atop gezira
Hi Alan,
On 27 February 2012 11:32, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
[...] a better constraint system. [...] This has led us to start putting
constraint engines into STEPS, thinking about how to automatically organize
various solvers, what kinds of POLs would be nice to make constraint
On 2/27/2012 10:30 AM, Steve Wart wrote:
Just to zero in on one idea here
Anyway I digress... have you had a look at this file?:
http://piumarta.com/software/maru/maru-2.1/test-pepsi.l
Just read the whole thing - I found it fairly interesting :) He's
build pepsi on maru
; Fundamentals of New Computing
fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
Hi Alan,
On 27 February 2012 11:32, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
[...] a better constraint system. [...] This has led us to start putting
constraint
I am interested in the embedded uses of Maru, so I cannot comment on
how to get from here to a Frank-like GUI. I have no idea how many
others on this list are interested in the Internet of Things (IoT),
but I expect parts of Frank will be useful in that space. Maybe 5kLOC
will bring up a
To: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org mailto:fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended
version of DBJr that sits atop lesserphic, which sits atop gezira
which sits atop nile
On 2/27/2012 1:27 PM, David Girle wrote:
I am interested in the embedded uses of Maru, so I cannot comment on
how to get from here to a Frank-like GUI. I have no idea how many
others on this list are interested in the Internet of Things (IoT),
but I expect parts of Frank will be useful in that
: Fundamentals of New Computing fonc@vpri.org
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [fonc] Error trying to compile COLA
On 27 February 2012 15:09, Alan Kay alan.n...@yahoo.com wrote:
Yes, I've seen it. As Gerry says, it is an extension of Guy Steele's thesis.
When I read this, I
Structural optimisation is not compression. Lurk more.
Julian
On 28/02/2012, at 3:38 PM, BGB wrote:
granted, I remain a little skeptical.
I think there is a bit of a difference though between, say, a log table, and
a typical piece of software.
a log table is, essentially, almost pure
On 2/27/2012 10:08 PM, Julian Leviston wrote:
Structural optimisation is not compression. Lurk more.
probably will drop this, as arguing about all this is likely pointless
and counter-productive.
but, is there any particular reason for why similar rules and
restrictions wouldn't apply?
On 2/25/2012 7:48 PM, Julian Leviston wrote:
As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version
of DBJr that sits atop lesserphic, which sits atop gezira which sits
atop nile, which sits atop maru all of which which utilise ometa and
the worlds idea.
If you look at the
What does any of what you just said have to do with the original question about
COLA?
Julian
On 26/02/2012, at 9:25 PM, BGB wrote:
On 2/25/2012 7:48 PM, Julian Leviston wrote:
As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of
DBJr that sits atop lesserphic, which
On 2/26/2012 3:53 AM, Julian Leviston wrote:
What does any of what you just said have to do with the original
question about COLA?
sorry, I am really not good with topic, was just trying to respond to
what was there, but it was 2AM...
(hmm, maybe I should have waited until morning? oh
Guys, I find these off_topic comments (as in not strictly about my idst
compilation problem) really interesting. Maybe I should start a new
thread? Something like «how can a newbie start playing with this
technology?». Thanks!
___
fonc mailing list
Julian,
Thanks, now I have a much better picture of the overall situation, although
I still have a lot of reading to do. I already had read a couple of Frank
progress reports, and some stuff about worlds, in the publications link you
mention. So I thought, this sounds great, how can I try this?
Take a look at the page:
http://piumarta.com/software/maru/
it has the original version you have + current.
There is a short readme in the current version with some examples that
will get you going.
David
On Sun, Feb 26, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Martin Baldan martino...@gmail.com wrote:
Julian,
On 2012-02-27 02:14AM, Martin Baldan wrote:
But what else can I do with it? Should I use it to run the examples at
http://tinlizzie.org/dbjr/;? All I see is files with a .lbox file
extension. What are those? Apparently, there are no READMEs. Could you
please give me an example of how to try one of
I'm afraid that I am in no way a teacher of this. I'm in no way professing to
know what I'm talking about - I've simply given you my observations. Perhaps we
can help each other, because I'm intensely interested, too... I want to
understand this stuff because it is chock full of intensely
On 2/26/2012 8:23 PM, Julian Leviston wrote:
I'm afraid that I am in no way a teacher of this. I'm in no way
professing to know what I'm talking about - I've simply given you my
observations. Perhaps we can help each other, because I'm intensely
interested, too... I want to understand this
Hi,
Comments line...
On 27/02/2012, at 5:33 PM, BGB wrote:
I don't think it was a prank. It's not really hidden at all. If you pay
attention, all the components of Frank are there... like I said. It's
obviously missing certain things like Nothing, and other optimisations, but
for the
On 2/26/2012 11:43 PM, Julian Leviston wrote:
Hi,
Comments line...
On 27/02/2012, at 5:33 PM, BGB wrote:
I don't think it was a prank. It's not really hidden at all. If you
pay attention, all the components of Frank are there... like I said.
It's obviously missing certain things like
Michael,
Thanks for your reply. I'm looking into it.
Best,
Martin
___
fonc mailing list
fonc@vpri.org
http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Isn't the cola basically irrelevant now? aren't they using maru instead? (or
rather isn't maru the renamed version of coke?)
Julian
On 26/02/2012, at 2:52 AM, Martin Baldan wrote:
Michael,
Thanks for your reply. I'm looking into it.
Best,
Martin
Is that the case? I'm a bit confused. I've read the fascinating reports
about Frank, and I was wondering what's the closest thing one can download
and run right now. Could you guys please clear it up for me?
Best,
Martin
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Julian Leviston jul...@leviston.netwrote:
As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of DBJr
that sits atop lesserphic, which sits atop gezira which sits atop nile, which
sits atop maru all of which which utilise ometa and the worlds idea.
If you look at the http://vpri.org/html/writings.php page you can see
Martin,
Am 23.02.2012 um 11:32 schrieb Martin Baldan:
Here's where I think the compilation went wrong:
[code]
make[2]: Entering directory
`/home/martin/Escritorio/otras_cosas/desastre/programming/vpri/cola/idst/stable/fonc-stable/object/id'
/bin/sh -ec 'mkdir ../stage1/./include; \
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