Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-22 Thread Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
Hello Juan,

First, thanks all the information. It definitely should be helpful.

> [..]
>> What host OS are you using?
> openSUSE 11.4

Love openSuSE. (My personal favorite distro!)

> [..]

Based on your information, I have been able to replicate the problem in
VirtualBox as well. Basically, this seems to be a summary of the issue.

A pre-formatted floppy image has no issue being formatted in any mode.

A zero’d image file for a floppy appears to be problematic. A simple test
is to create an a blank image by using “dd bs=512 count=2880 if=/dev/zero 
of=floppy.img”
Then attaching this to a virtual machine and simply formatting with “format a:” 
or 
“format /u a:” terminates with and error code.

However, telling format the image size appears to bypass the issue.
For example, “format /f:1440 a:” appears to always work.

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-22 Thread Juan Manuel Guerrero 
Am 22.10.2016 18:08, schrieb Jerome E. Shidel Jr.:
Hello Jerome and all the other interested ones,

[snip]
 > What host OS are you using?
openSUSE 11.4

 > If you booted the CD under VMware and installed FreeDOS,
 > are you still booting the El Torito CD?
Yes.  I forgot to unmount it.  Now I have disconnected the
CD image from the machine and repeated the experiment but the
outcomming is the absolutely the same.

 > Are you running the latest Version of VirtualBox (5.0.28)?
No.  I have _never_ run any version of VirtualBox.
I have used VMware Player  5.0.2 build-1031769 _only_.


 > Have you made major changes from the default VirtualBox settings?
The settings of the WMware Player are:
   1 processor
   64 MB ram
   2 GB  HD
   No CD mounted
   No floppy mounted
   Everything else are default settings that the Player selects.
   I have tried one time using only 4 MB of ram but it had no influence.


 > Have you modified the boot configuration of FreeDOS and is something 
 > conflicting?
No.  The only thing I selected was that only the base packages shall be 
installed.
I have used german as installation language all the time.
No editing neither of fdconfig.sys nor of autoexec.bat at all.  I am using the
virtual machine as it is.  When the machine is booted, the first boot option is
used.  I have never tried any other.

 > Are you sure the actual floppy image is a valid size, exists and is writable 
 > by the host OS?
Yes, I can do:
   dd bs=512 count=2880 if=/dev/zero of=rawfloppy.img
or
   dd if=test.img of=rawfloppy.img
rawfloppy.img is the image created by the virtual machine.
If test.img has a file system then rawfloppy.img can be read by FreeDOS.
The raw floppy image is created by VMware player by selecting the corresponding 
"create" command.
For the VMware Player this is:
   "Edit virtual machine settings"  -->  Hardware-tab:  floppy  -->  
Connection:  "Use a floppy image"  --> "Create..."
The create command does not allow to select or change the size of the image.
Or at least I do not know how.  It creates a raw 1.44 MB image.  This image
can be formated with MSDOS-6.22, Win98SE, Win2K-SP5 and WinXP-SP3.  This means
that I am running different virtual machines created with the same VMware Player
and this Player creates the raw image.
If I use the format program from FreeDOS, this is "format /d a:" then the image
gets ruined and cannot be formated by any of the previously stipulated microsoft
OSes.  If I boot the MSDOS-6.22 virtual machine I am capable to mount and fix 
the
image using my old Norton Utilities.  After that the image can be formated by
MSDOS again.  Of course there is nothing particular about Norton, there are
certainly thousends of other disk tools that will fix the floppy.


 > (maybe download the FD12FLOPPY.zip and try formatting it’s image)
I have done this and it formats flawlessly.  But this is not a surprise at all
because it is not a raw floppy but a formated one.  For an already formated
floppy, the FreeDOS "format /d a:" command always works.  But if I take that
one and ruin the first couple of sectors with the command:
   dd bs=512 count=2880 if=/dev/zero of=FLOPPY.img
then "format /d a:" fails miserably.


It remains a fact, that a raw floppy created by VMware Player  5.0.2 
build-1031769
can be formated by any format program of the microsoft OSes I have tested.
This means that both "format a:" and "format /u a:" work without problems.
But a raw floppy created in the same way by the same virtual machine can only
be formated using the "format /u a:" command but not "format a:" command when
the FreeDOS format program is used.
If the command:
   dd bs=512 count=2880 if=/dev/zero of=FLOPPY.img
is run neither of both MSDOS format nor FreeDOS format program can format the
floppy image.  This means that "format a:" does not work under this condition.
In this case "format /u a:" must be used to get the floppy image fsuccessfully
formated by both OSes.  The conclusion is "format /u a:" will always work but
"format a:" will not.

I do not know if it is really worth to continue investing time in this issue.
This may be a peculiarity of my installation.  I use only VMware Player  5.0.2 
build-1031769
and I have never tried VirtualBox.  VMware Player  5.0.2 build-1031769 is also
quite old and may be a newer version does not exhibit this kind of problem but
due to the lincense politics of VMware for private/home users I have stoped to
update so I cannot tell.


Regards,
Juan M. Guerrero

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-22 Thread Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 

> On Oct 22, 2016, at 1:11 PM, Antony Gordon  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Host OS should not matter. If the "gold standard" of MS-DOS works in that 
> configuration with the disk images, there is definitely something that isn't 
> right in this release. For those having a problem, what happens in FreeDOS 
> 1.1.
> 
> Tony
> 
Absolutely, unless there is a Platform specific bug with the VM software, 
default configuration settings and other very OS specific issues. 

For example, image file marked as read-only or writable only by root but 
running as user. When doing testing and such, I once set one of 
the hard disk images to 644 (on purpose) on a Mac. This was a few months back 
and did not behave like I expected. I think it was in
VirtualBox. If I recall correctly, it would act like it was writing to the 
drive but after a while would start throwing errors.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-22 Thread Antony Gordon 
Hi,

Host OS should not matter. If the "gold standard" of MS-DOS works in that
configuration with the disk images, there is definitely something that
isn't right in this release. For those having a problem, what happens in
FreeDOS 1.1.

Tony

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016, 12:10 PM Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
wrote:

> Hello Juan,
>
> > On Oct 22, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Juan Manuel Guerrero 
> wrote:
> >
> > OFYI: I have tried to format a floppy image with a VMware Player 5.0.2
> using
> > FreeDOS 1.2-pre23 and I have observed the same issue as described for
> VirtualBox.
>
> The FreeDOS 1.2 preview releases are built under FreeDOS 1.2 build
> environment (BE),
> The BE is running under VirtualBox and contains 2 floppy drive images and
> 3 hard disk
> drive images. The USB and CD releases of 1.2 contain a utility FDIDEV.BAT
> that
> will convert a (virtual) machine into a FreeDOS BE. Each preview release
> is built
> automatically using the mkFDI.bat utility that is installed and part of
> the BE. During the
> build process performed by mkFDI, this utility reformats both Floppy
> images and two
> of the hard disk images. It does this to zero out unused portions for
> better disk
> image compression at release time. I have seen no issues formatting any of
> these
> images from FreeDOS inside VirtualBox. Earlier builds (like preview 10 and
> earlier)
> were running inside VMware Fusion. But, VirtualBox performed the build
> many times
> faster. I saw no issues under VMware Fusion either.
>
> Now, just as a quick verification, I duplicated a 1.44 floppy image and
> booted a test
> install of Preview 23 inside VirtualBox 5.0.28. Format reported no
> problems with
> any of the various methods I used to reformat that floppy image.
>
> Other than the errors you are getting towards the end. I see only line
> that differs
> in my debug log.
>
> [DEBUG]  Sector buffer at 0E17:6770, track buffer at 0E17:6B70
>
> This is probably just due to the difference in the virtual machine BIOS.
> Or,
> possibly the booted configuration.
>
> > [..]
> > [DEBUG]  Sector buffer at 1A3F:6770, track buffer at 1A3F:6B70
> > [..]
> > [DEBUG]  FAT Sectors: 1 to 18 ->
> >   0% +**Drive_IO(WRITE 1, count 1 ) [FAT12/16] [drive A*]
> >
> >  Critical error during DOS disk access
> >  DOS driver error (hex): 01
> >Description: unknown unit for driver
> >  Program terminated.
> > [DEBUG]  DOS 7+, UNLOCKing drive (by one level)
> > [DEBUG]  DOS 7+, UNLOCKing drive (by one level)
>
> Just as verification, I have a couple simple questions that you have
> probably already checked.
>
> What host OS are you using?
>
> If you booted the CD under VMware and installed FreeDOS, are you still
> booting the
> El Torito CD?
>
> Are you running the latest Version of VirtualBox (5.0.28)?
>
> Have you made major changes from the default VirtualBox settings?
>
> Have you modified the boot configuration of FreeDOS and is something
> conflicting?
>
> Are you sure the actual floppy image is a valid size, exists and is
> writable by the host OS?
> (maybe download the FD12FLOPPY.zip and try formatting it’s image)
>
> Jerome
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-22 Thread Maarten Vermeulen 
Op zaterdag 22 oktober 2016 heeft Tom Ehlert  het
volgende geschreven:
> Dear Marten!

Haha! Is my name that difficult, you're the 5th person on this list to
write my name wrong. :)


> but:
>
> when changing the topic, please change the subject of your mail

Sorry, didn't think about that... I think I automatically replied on this
one (without thinking that much) because of 'report any bugs', but I should
have done that... Sorry.


> when changing the topic, please don't full quote some topic (keyboard
> layout issues) that is entirely unrelated to your topic.

That should be very logical! No, I am going to make the topic "ever heard
of a living stone?"
While talking about FreeDOS. :)

Wow, that's a bad one.

>
> even dutch kids should follow a minimum of netiquette.

The only thing that happend was me not thinking about a subject. :(
I didn't do anything else. *crying*

Those two were jokes. But why that comment? Should be very very logical.
But that's just me.

Anyway, sorry for not changing the subject.

Maarten





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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-22 Thread Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
Hello Juan,

> On Oct 22, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Juan Manuel Guerrero  
> wrote:
> 
> OFYI: I have tried to format a floppy image with a VMware Player 5.0.2 using
> FreeDOS 1.2-pre23 and I have observed the same issue as described for 
> VirtualBox.

The FreeDOS 1.2 preview releases are built under FreeDOS 1.2 build environment 
(BE),
The BE is running under VirtualBox and contains 2 floppy drive images and 3 
hard disk
drive images. The USB and CD releases of 1.2 contain a utility FDIDEV.BAT that 
will convert a (virtual) machine into a FreeDOS BE. Each preview release is 
built 
automatically using the mkFDI.bat utility that is installed and part of the BE. 
During the
build process performed by mkFDI, this utility reformats both Floppy images and 
two
of the hard disk images. It does this to zero out unused portions for better 
disk
image compression at release time. I have seen no issues formatting any of these
images from FreeDOS inside VirtualBox. Earlier builds (like preview 10 and 
earlier) 
were running inside VMware Fusion. But, VirtualBox performed the build many 
times
faster. I saw no issues under VMware Fusion either.

Now, just as a quick verification, I duplicated a 1.44 floppy image and booted 
a test
install of Preview 23 inside VirtualBox 5.0.28. Format reported no problems with
any of the various methods I used to reformat that floppy image.

Other than the errors you are getting towards the end. I see only line that 
differs
in my debug log.

[DEBUG]  Sector buffer at 0E17:6770, track buffer at 0E17:6B70

This is probably just due to the difference in the virtual machine BIOS. Or, 
possibly the booted configuration. 

> [..]
> [DEBUG]  Sector buffer at 1A3F:6770, track buffer at 1A3F:6B70
> [..]
> [DEBUG]  FAT Sectors: 1 to 18 ->
>   0% +**Drive_IO(WRITE 1, count 1 ) [FAT12/16] [drive A*]
> 
>  Critical error during DOS disk access
>  DOS driver error (hex): 01
>Description: unknown unit for driver
>  Program terminated.
> [DEBUG]  DOS 7+, UNLOCKing drive (by one level)
> [DEBUG]  DOS 7+, UNLOCKing drive (by one level)

Just as verification, I have a couple simple questions that you have probably 
already checked.

What host OS are you using?

If you booted the CD under VMware and installed FreeDOS, are you still booting 
the
El Torito CD?

Are you running the latest Version of VirtualBox (5.0.28)?

Have you made major changes from the default VirtualBox settings?

Have you modified the boot configuration of FreeDOS and is something 
conflicting?

Are you sure the actual floppy image is a valid size, exists and is writable by 
the host OS? 
(maybe download the FD12FLOPPY.zip and try formatting it’s image)

Jerome
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-22 Thread Eric Auer 

Hi Juan,

...

>   Full Formatting (wiping all data)
> [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  0  Head:  0  Sectors: 18

...

> [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 79  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
>   98% 100%
> [DEBUG]  File System Creation
> [DEBUG]  Boot Sector -> 0
> [DEBUG]  FAT Sectors: 1 to 18 ->
>0% +**Drive_IO(WRITE 1, count 1 ) [FAT12/16] [drive A*]
> 
>   Critical error during DOS disk access
>   DOS driver error (hex): 01
> Description: unknown unit for driver
>   Program terminated.
> [DEBUG]  DOS 7+, UNLOCKing drive (by one level)
> [DEBUG]  DOS 7+, UNLOCKing drive (by one level)
> 
> 
>  > C:\>echo %errorlevel%
>  > 129

This sounds a bit like FORMAT, BIOS, drive and DOS kernel cannot
agree about when and how to reset the drive after formatting. On
a real computer, it might have helped to re-insert the disk at
that moment? It may also depend on the kernel version: After the
FORMAT loop, the disk does not yet contain a filesystem, but the
error message happens AFTER writing the boot sector, BEFORE the
FAT and root directory get written, according to the messages...

A workaround would be to write the FAT and root directory using
raw BIOS I/O instead of already switching to DOS I/O after the
boot sector update, any comments from kernel experts? As far as
I remember, using less raw BIOS I/O is generally more "friendly".

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-22 Thread Juan Manuel Guerrero 
OFYI: I have tried to format a floppy image with a VMware Player 5.0.2 using
FreeDOS 1.2-pre23 and I have observed the same issue as described for 
VirtualBox.
If /q/u is used it becomes possible to format the image.  I have also tried
to format using only /d.  See below for the output produced.  What surprises
me is that the format program from MSDOS 6.22 does not require options like
/u/q to format a floppy image on the same virtual machine.  Issuing format a:
just does the job.  For an user that is familiar to MSDOS but not familiar at
all to FreeDOS this deviation in program behavior may be confusing and the user
may have difficulties in formating an image.
Is this different behavior intentional?  IMHO, if FreeDOS claims to be MSDOS
compatible, the deviation in behavior should be as less as possible.  This is
not an issue for me personally.  When I know that there is a difference in
program behavior I can act accordingly but it remains surprising that something
that I expected to be compatible is not always compatible conserning its 
behavior.

Regards,
Juan M. Guerrero



format /d a:

[DEBUG]  FORMAT 0.91v, selected drive A:
[DEBUG]  Sector buffer at 1A3F:6770, track buffer at 1A3F:6B70
[DEBUG]  Skipped ASSIGN check for diskette drive.
[DEBUG]  DOS 7+, LOCKing drive
  Insert new diskette for drive A:
  Insert new disk please,
  Press ENTER when the right disk is in drive...

[DEBUG]  Checking whether we need low-level format.
[DEBUG]  Test-reading boot sector.
  Boot sector contents implausible, disk not yet FAT formatted
[DEBUG]  DOS 7+, FORMAT-LOCKing drive
[DEBUG]  Current Disk Drive Parameter Table Values at 0070:0119:
[DEBUG]  [DDPT] Step Rate: 240 msec  Head Unload:48 msec  DMA Flag Bit:  0
[DEBUG]  [DDPT] Head Load:   4 msec  Post Rotate:  2035 msec  Sector Size: 512
[DEBUG]  [DDPT] SECTORS PER TRACK:  18  (Gap:  27  Data: 255  Format Gap: 108)
[DEBUG]  [DDPT] Fill Char: 0xF6  Head Settle: 15 msec  Motor Start: 625 msec
Using drive default: 1440k (Cyl=80 Head=2 Sec=18)
[DEBUG]  Setting geometry with int 13h ah=18h: tracks=80 sectors=18
[DEBUG] Updated INT 1E (DDPT) data at: 0070:0119.

[DEBUG]  Interleave Map:
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

[DEBUG]  Configured Disk Drive Parameter Table Values at 0070:0119:
[DEBUG]  [DDPT] Step Rate: 240 msec  Head Unload:48 msec  DMA Flag Bit:  0
[DEBUG]  [DDPT] Head Load:   4 msec  Post Rotate:  2035 msec  Sector Size: 512
[DEBUG]  [DDPT] SECTORS PER TRACK:  18  (Gap:  27  Data: 255  Format Gap: 108)
[DEBUG]  [DDPT] Fill Char: 0xF6  Head Settle: 15 msec  Motor Start: 625 msec
[DEBUG]  Controller setup 17: [configured type 7]  500 kbps (HD 1xx0k)
-- press ENTER to format disk (ESCAPE to abort) --
Cannot find existing format - forcing full format
Please enter volume label (max. 11 chars):

No label, disk will have no creation timestamp.
  Full Formatting (wiping all data)
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  0  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  0  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
   0% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  1  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  1  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
   1% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  2  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  2  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
   2% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  3  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  3  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
   3% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  4  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  4  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
   5% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  5  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  5  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
   6% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  6  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  6  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
   7% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  7  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  7  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
   8% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  8  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  8  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  10% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  9  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder:  9  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  11% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 10  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 10  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  12% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 11  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 11  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  13% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 12  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 12  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  15% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 13  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 13  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  16% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 14  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 14  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  17% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 15  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 15  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  18% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 16  Head:  0  Sectors: 18
[DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 16  Head:  1  Sectors: 18
  20% [DEBUG]  Formatting: Cylinder: 17  Head:  0

Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-21 Thread Eric Auer 

Hi Maarten,

> I got an error when trying to format a floppy in Virtualbox (which is
> a completely logical error). It was a int 0x13 write error. But after
> that the system hangs. It is 'fatal' but I would think fatal for that
> piece of software. So can't it go back an try to go to [a prompt...]

> Command used: "Format A:" I used an image (.img) as floppy disk. So
> it can't format it. That's why the error exists.

It is potentially possible to format a floppy image, but that depends
on the abilities of VirtualBox. In particular, you could do a format
without low-level formatting. As "FORMAT /?" already suggests, please
use the debug option and report the displayed messages. Here is one
example from running FORMAT in DOSEMU:

> C:\>format /d b:

> [DEBUG]  FORMAT 0.91v, selected drive B:
> [DEBUG]  Sector buffer at 2CD2:6770, track buffer at 2CD2:6B70
> [DEBUG]  Skipped ASSIGN check for diskette drive.

>  Insert new diskette for drive B:
>  Press ENTER when the right disk is in drive...

> [DEBUG]  Checking whether we need low-level format.
> [DEBUG]  Test-reading boot sector.
> [04]*[04]*[04]*[04]#[DEBUG]  Error code: 0xB
>   Boot sector unreadable, disk not yet formatted

> [DEBUG]  Current Disk Drive Parameter Table Values at 0070:0119:
> [DEBUG]  [DDPT] Step Rate: 240 msec  Head Unload:96 msec  DMA Flag Bit:  0
> [DEBUG]  [DDPT] Head Load:   4 msec  Post Rotate:  2035 msec  Sector Size: 512
> [DEBUG]  [DDPT] SECTORS PER TRACK:  18  (Gap:  27  Data: 255  Format Gap: 108)
> [DEBUG]  [DDPT] Fill Char: 0xF6  Head Settle: 15 msec  Motor Start: 1000 msec

> C:\>echo %errorlevel%
> 53

In the example, the drive B: does not exist in the simulation. The
FreeDOS kernel would do some "DJ mechanism" support, but that would
not mean that a physical drive exists. So the following is virtual:

> C:\>dir b:
> Remove diskette in drive A:
> Insert diskette in drive B:
> Press any key to continue ...

One good way to "format" a disk image of a virtual box disk would
be to do "FORMAT /Q /U A:" which means quick (no low level format,
just reset FAT and root directory) and un-undoable (no attempt to
save data for later UNFORMAT).

See also FORMAT /Z:longhelp instead of the usual FORMAT /? for a
long list of additional, possibly obscure, options of our FORMAT.

Cheers, Eric :-)

PS: I have not tried if FORMAT A: would work in DOSEMU because that
would mean that I have to restore my virtual A: contents afterwards.



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-21 Thread netraam70 

Hi!

I got an error when trying to format a floppy in Virtualbox (which is a 
completely logical error). It was a int 0x13 write error. But after that the 
system hangs. It is ‘fatal’ but I would think fatal for that piece of software. 
So can’t it go back an try to go to C:\ (floppy drive was A:\ )? Or do a 
reboot? That would be far more logical than halting the CPU.

Command used: “Format A:”
I used an image (.img) as floppy disk. So it can’t format it. That’s why the 
error exists.

Maarten

Van: Jerome E. Shidel Jr.
Verzonden: zaterdag 15 oktober 2016 23:17
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

Hello Tom,


On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Tom Ehlert <t...@drivesnapshot.de> wrote:
[…]
I can understand that you - as a user of the BIOS standard US keyboard -
have little understanding of the size of the problem.

we had recently a discussion about turkish keyboard layout.

to make you more aware of the problem, try to put

KEYB TR,,KEYBRD2.SYS /ID:440

for this http://ascii-table.com/keyboard.php/440 keyboard, into
AUTOEXEC.BAT.

Now try to edit AUTOEXEC.BAT and put REM into front of the KEYB line.

No need. I have used linux distributions that did not correctly map the keyboard
when US was selected or when logged in remotely. So, I know the pain of using 
a console that does not match your keyboard. But, this has been rare and I have 
never needed to mess around with it under DOS.


Unfortunately, I don’t see support for DE or EO in mkeyb 0.41. I do see NL and 
FR.



So, unfortunately I just can’t add this to the installed main config file:



if %LANG% == “EN” goto NoKeyb
mkeyb %LANG%
:NoKeyB

language != keyboard.

Ya, I know. It would be nice though. But, alas it is not practical. Let’s just 
consider US English Language. Just a couple possibilities, QWERTY, DVORAK,
Windows, Macintosh, 88-Key, 101-Key and so on and on.


even as a german user, I always have used, use, and will use a US
ASCII keyboard. Similar for NL, and the UK keyboard is different from
US ASCII.

That is exactly why I feel that automatically setting the keyboard is just as 
bad as not setting it.


you will have to add an additional dialog for keyboard selection.

I don’t know if that is going to happen or not. We really are getting down to 
being
a couple days from releasing RC1. This topic should have been brought up
several months ago when development of FDI became mostly idle and only
minor package changes for the release started being applied.

I don’t know wether or not Jim will give the OK to add that for non-US language 
installations. Depending on when I get an answer from him, I may not have 
sufficient time to implement it. 

All of that being said, It would not be difficult to add it to FDI. It has been 
designed to 
be expandable and fairly easy to add additional functionality and prompts. I 
will
probably be able to scrape up a few spare minutes to implement an additional
installer prompt for non-US language keyboard selection. Just depends on
what Jim decides and when.

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-15 Thread Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
Hello Tom,

> On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:27 PM, Tom Ehlert  > wrote:
> […]
> I can understand that you - as a user of the BIOS standard US keyboard -
> have little understanding of the size of the problem.
> 
> we had recently a discussion about turkish keyboard layout.
> 
> to make you more aware of the problem, try to put
> 
> KEYB TR,,KEYBRD2.SYS /ID:440
> 
> for this http://ascii-table.com/keyboard.php/440 
>  keyboard, into
> AUTOEXEC.BAT.
> 
> Now try to edit AUTOEXEC.BAT and put REM into front of the KEYB line.

No need. I have used linux distributions that did not correctly map the keyboard
when US was selected or when logged in remotely. So, I know the pain of using 
a console that does not match your keyboard. But, this has been rare and I have 
never needed to mess around with it under DOS.

>> Unfortunately, I don’t see support for DE or EO in mkeyb 0.41. I do see NL 
>> and FR.
> 
> 
>> So, unfortunately I just can’t add this to the installed main config file:
> 
> 
>> if %LANG% == “EN” goto NoKeyb
>> mkeyb %LANG%
>> :NoKeyB
> 
> language != keyboard.

Ya, I know. It would be nice though. But, alas it is not practical. Let’s just 
consider US English Language. Just a couple possibilities, QWERTY, DVORAK,
Windows, Macintosh, 88-Key, 101-Key and so on and on.

> even as a german user, I always have used, use, and will use a US
> ASCII keyboard. Similar for NL, and the UK keyboard is different from
> US ASCII.

That is exactly why I feel that automatically setting the keyboard is just as 
bad as not setting it.

> you will have to add an additional dialog for keyboard selection.

I don’t know if that is going to happen or not. We really are getting down to 
being
a couple days from releasing RC1. This topic should have been brought up
several months ago when development of FDI became mostly idle and only
minor package changes for the release started being applied.

I don’t know wether or not Jim will give the OK to add that for non-US language 
installations. Depending on when I get an answer from him, I may not have 
sufficient time to implement it. 

All of that being said, It would not be difficult to add it to FDI. It has been 
designed to 
be expandable and fairly easy to add additional functionality and prompts. I 
will
probably be able to scrape up a few spare minutes to implement an additional
installer prompt for non-US language keyboard selection. Just depends on
what Jim decides and when.

Jerome--
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-15 Thread Tom Ehlert 

> 1.2 will be shipping with mkeyb 0.41 dated 2006. It contains (at a glance) a 
> dozen or so
> more languages. 


> I see GR, GR2 and SG (Swiss German) keymaps available.


> Being in the USA and using a US Keyboard, I have never messed with these. But,
> MKEYB is easy to use. So, I will see what Jim wants to do. At worst, I will 
> have it
> include REM’d versions.

I can understand that you - as a user of the BIOS standard US keyboard -
have little understanding of the size of the problem.

we had recently a discussion about turkish keyboard layout.

to make you more aware of the problem, try to put

  KEYB TR,,KEYBRD2.SYS /ID:440

for this http://ascii-table.com/keyboard.php/440 keyboard, into
AUTOEXEC.BAT.

Now try to edit AUTOEXEC.BAT and put REM into front of the KEYB line.




> Unfortunately, I don’t see support for DE or EO in mkeyb 0.41. I do see NL 
> and FR.


> So, unfortunately I just can’t add this to the installed main config file:


> if %LANG% == “EN” goto NoKeyb
> mkeyb %LANG%
> :NoKeyB

language != keyboard.

even as a german user, I always have used, use, and will use a US
ASCII keyboard. Similar for NL, and the UK keyboard is different from
US ASCII.

you will have to add an additional dialog for keyboard selection.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-14 Thread Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
Hello Eric, 

> On Oct 14, 2016, at 4:01 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jerome, as said, I would recommend a little dialog in the
> installer for the MKEYB keyboard languages only, with a REM
> line in the config to let people enable other layouts with
> the bigger KEYB manually at a later moment. See the list here:

I don’t know if Jim would prefer an additional screen prompt or not.
I will ask him.

> 
>> C:\>mkeyb /L
>> mKEYB 0.34 [Sep 18 2002] - all languages Copyright (c) 2002 www.tomehlert.de
>> […]
>> HE - HEBREW - hebrew keyboard (by diego)
> 
> Cheers, Eric
> 


1.2 will be shipping with mkeyb 0.41 dated 2006. It contains (at a glance) a 
dozen or so
more languages. 

I see GR, GR2 and SG (Swiss German) keymaps available.

Being in the USA and using a US Keyboard, I have never messed with these. But,
MKEYB is easy to use. So, I will see what Jim wants to do. At worst, I will 
have it
include REM’d versions.

Unfortunately, I don’t see support for DE or EO in mkeyb 0.41. I do see NL and 
FR. 

So, unfortunately I just can’t add this to the installed main config file:

if %LANG% == “EN” goto NoKeyb
mkeyb %LANG%
:NoKeyB



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-14 Thread Eric Auer 

Hi Jerome, as said, I would recommend a little dialog in the
installer for the MKEYB keyboard languages only, with a REM
line in the config to let people enable other layouts with
the bigger KEYB manually at a later moment. See the list here:

> C:\>mkeyb /L
> mKEYB 0.34 [Sep 18 2002] - all languages Copyright (c) 2002 www.tomehlert.de
>  DK - DENMARK - daenish keyboard, no combi's (by tom)
>  GR - GERMAN - deutsche Tastatur (by tom)
>  GR2- GERMAN2 - deutsche Tastatur mit internatinalen Umlauten (by tom)
>  IT - ITALY - italiano keyboardo (by tom)
>  LA - Latin American - keyboardo espanolo latino americano (by tom)
>  NL - NETHERLANDS - dutch keyboard (by Bart)
>  NO - NORVEGIAN - norske keyboard (by tom)
>  PL - POLISH - polska klawiatura (by tom, verified by michael)
>  PO - PORTUGAL - portugese keyboard (by tom)
>  RU - RUSSIA - russian Keyboard (by arkady)
>  SF - SWISS FRENCH - (by tom)
>  SG - SWISS GERMAN - schweizer deutsches Keyboard, keine combi's (by tom)
>  SP - SPANISH - keyboard with combis (by aitor)
>  SU - SUOMI - finnish Keyboard, keine combi's (by tom)
>  SV - SWEDISH - swedish Keyboard, keine combi's (by tom)
>  UK - UNITED KINGDOM - british keyboard, no combi's (by Bart)
>  BR - BRAZIL - portuguese keyboard with combis (Henrique Peron)
>  BX - BRAZIL EXTENDED - portuguese keyboard with combis (Henrique Peron)
>  FR - FRENCH - claviature francais (by tom-untested)
>  HE - HEBREW - hebrew keyboard (by diego)

Cheers, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-14 Thread Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
Hello again Juan,

> On Oct 13, 2016, at 3:32 PM, Juan Manuel Guerrero  
> wrote:
> 
> Hello Jerome and Eric
> 
> Thank you for your comments.  IMHO the issue of having a working keyboard is
> essential.  DOS and its clones appear to their users as TUI thus if the
> keyboard does not allow to issue commands it makes the OS to become almost 
> useless.
> An user that has to hit around ten different keys until he finds the backslash
> key only to be capable to issue a "cd" command will lost interest quite soon.
> I had to mount the virtual disk to be capable to inspect it without getting
> crazy due to the keyboard and to figure out how to fix the issue.  30 years 
> ago
> I used to use MSDOS every day all day long and thus I was suprised how much 
> the
> directory structure and the available drivers and files differ from old DOS.
> So trying to fix this was not so straightforward as I expected at a first 
> glance.
> 
> IMO this issue could be tremendously alleviated by adding to FDCONFIG.SYS and
> AUTOEXEC.BAT, as comments, those lines that are required to select a 
> particular
> keyboard layout.  Having the required lines at the appropriate places together
> with some docs will allow those users that are experienced with DOS already to
> fix the issue by themselfs.  Please note that I am not expecting any kind of
> magic.  The MSDOS installer also did never offer any kind of magic but at 
> least
> it asked the user to specify some locale and deduced from this what keyboard
> specific lines to add to config.sys and autoexec.bat.
> Neitherless it should be remembered that outside the US, the US keyboard 
> layout
> is almost useless because crucial keys like backslash and colon are at 
> different
> places and thus not easily found frustrating the average user quite soon.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Juan M. Guerrero
> 

FDI (the FreeDOS Installer) was designed to be able to handle stuff like 
language specific 
settings. But, no-one has provided me with keyboard or codepage settings. I 
have no way to 
test them and will not guess. We are now very close to the 1.2 release. So, 
having FDI setup 
language based keyboard customizations is not likely to happen in the current 
release.

However, if you provide me with the settings needed for the most likely (single 
or multiple)
settings for you language, I will have FDI embed them as REM statements when 
your
language is installed. Both the KEYB and MKEYB keyboard packages are installed
by default with base.

This is easily accomplished. When running FDI it automatically calls a 
SETTLANG.BAT 
file for specific languages. If it is not present for a specific language,  it 
falls back to
using the default one for English. The contents of this batch file are also 
embedded 
into the installed AUTOEXEC.BAT file. This file would be located in the 
FDSETUP\SETUP\%LANG% directory.

So, if you create one that looks like this:

@ECHO OFF 

REM LANGUAGE SPECIFIC KEYBOARD SETUP
REM FILE: FDSETUP\SETUP\GR\SETLANG.BAT

IF NOT EXIST %DOSDIR%\BIN\KEYB.EXE GOTO NoKeyb

keyb.exe ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

:NoKeyb

and place it in the appropriate directory on the floppy or usb stick it will 
automatically be
included in your autoexec.bat.

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-13 Thread Juan Manuel Guerrero 
Hello Jerome and Eric

Thank you for your comments.  IMHO the issue of having a working keyboard is
essential.  DOS and its clones appear to their users as TUI thus if the
keyboard does not allow to issue commands it makes the OS to become almost 
useless.
An user that has to hit around ten different keys until he finds the backslash
key only to be capable to issue a "cd" command will lost interest quite soon.
I had to mount the virtual disk to be capable to inspect it without getting
crazy due to the keyboard and to figure out how to fix the issue.  30 years ago
I used to use MSDOS every day all day long and thus I was suprised how much the
directory structure and the available drivers and files differ from old DOS.
So trying to fix this was not so straightforward as I expected at a first 
glance.

IMO this issue could be tremendously alleviated by adding to FDCONFIG.SYS and
AUTOEXEC.BAT, as comments, those lines that are required to select a particular
keyboard layout.  Having the required lines at the appropriate places together
with some docs will allow those users that are experienced with DOS already to
fix the issue by themselfs.  Please note that I am not expecting any kind of
magic.  The MSDOS installer also did never offer any kind of magic but at least
it asked the user to specify some locale and deduced from this what keyboard
specific lines to add to config.sys and autoexec.bat.
Neitherless it should be remembered that outside the US, the US keyboard layout
is almost useless because crucial keys like backslash and colon are at different
places and thus not easily found frustrating the average user quite soon.


Regards,
Juan M. Guerrero

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-12 Thread Eric Auer 

Hi, to add my 2 cents...

Linux versions ask for your language (or even geolocate your IP :-))
and then default to your timezone (not needed for DOS if you assume
RTC is on local time) and keyboard layout for that language & place.

I think it would be very convenient if there could be a selection of
keyboard layouts in SOME way, not necessarily automatically. If you
use MKEYB as easy choice, there are only a SMALL number of layouts
to select. You can add a small step to the installer for that one.

If the user does not take one of those, you could add some example
KEYB line set to QWERTY layout along with information about where
to find a list of KEYB supported layouts, for example by invoking
HTMLHELP, so the user at least has a starting point for self-help.

Cheers, Eric

> The installer could configure the boot process to implement keyboard
> mapping without any difficulty. But, that is not the issue.
> 
> Mostly, no information has been provided to me regarding keyboard
> layouts.
> 
> Also, it is very possible that a user may prefer German, Spanish or
> other language. But, they may be using an English qwerty keyboard.
> Or, Dvorak or French keyboard. Which one should be automatically set?

> Many Linux distributions offer a language selection then also ask
> which keyboard you have. Or at least they verify that they have
> guessed your keyboard by having you type in a box.
> 
> So, it is unlikely that that will make it into the version 1.2
> release. If I were to receive the specific information for each of
> the major languages. AND, Jim gives it the Okay. I might be able to
> include that if time permits.




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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-12 Thread Jerome Shidel 
Hello Juan,

> On Oct 12, 2016, at 4:13 PM, Juan Manuel Guerrero  
> wrote:
> 
> I have installed 
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/previews/1.2-pre23/FD12CD.iso
> on a VMware virtual machine.  The host is linux.  The installation process 
> runs
> flawlessly so far.  But when finished and the machine is rebooted I end up 
> with
> an US keyboard layout although I have continuosly selected german as lenguage
> during the complete installation process.  I excpected the installation 
> program
> to be so smart that it concludes that if the user selects all the time certain
> language he wants later a keyboard layout correspondig to that language.
> Is this behaviour a bug or a feature?  My MS-DOS 6.2 installation program is
> capable to handle this installation issue without any problems.
> 
> Regards,
> Juan M. Guerrero

Sorry, but...

It is neither a bug or a feature.

It only sets the users LANG and configured a language specific version of 
FreeCOM (if present). It does not set keyboard layouts.

The installer could configure the boot process to implement keyboard mapping 
without any difficulty. But, that is not the issue. 

Mostly, no information has been provided to me regarding keyboard layouts. 

Also, it is very possible that a user may prefer German, Spanish or other 
language. But, they may be using an English qwerty keyboard.  Or, Dvorak or 
French keyboard. Which one should be automatically set? Many Linux 
distributions offer a language selection then also ask which keyboard you have. 
Or at least they verify that they have guessed your keyboard by having you type 
in a box.

So, it is unlikely that that will make it into the version 1.2 release. If I 
were to receive the specific information for each of the major languages. AND, 
Jim gives it the Okay. I might be able to include that if time permits.

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-12 Thread Juan Manuel Guerrero 
I have installed 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/previews/1.2-pre23/FD12CD.iso
on a VMware virtual machine.  The host is linux.  The installation process runs
flawlessly so far.  But when finished and the machine is rebooted I end up with
an US keyboard layout although I have continuosly selected german as lenguage
during the complete installation process.  I excpected the installation program
to be so smart that it concludes that if the user selects all the time certain
language he wants later a keyboard layout correspondig to that language.
Is this behaviour a bug or a feature?  My MS-DOS 6.2 installation program is
capable to handle this installation issue without any problems.

Regards,
Juan M. Guerrero

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Getting ready for FreeDOS 1.2

2016-10-06 Thread Jayden Charbonneau 
​I can set aside an hour today dedicated to "Breaking" FreeDOS.If I find
any bugs,I will report them back.​

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Jim Hall  wrote:

> Have you been testing the pre-releases of the upcoming FreeDOS 1.2
> release? Jerome and others have been doing a great job putting this
> together, and I think we are almost "there" for a final FreeDOS 1.2
> release.
>
> We have only a few minor changes based on the latest 1.2-pre23. So we
> are planning the next one to be the release candidate! We are looking
> at the following release schedule:
>
> > 10/31 - FreeDOS 1.2 RC1
> > 11/24 - FreeDOS 1.2 RC2
> > 12/25 - FreeDOS 1.2 official release
>
>
> I think Jerome described the holiday-based release schedule best with this:
>
> > 1.2-RC1 on 10/31/16, Scary release.
> > 1.2-RC2 on 11/24/16, Thankful if not needed.
> > 1.2-Final on 12/25/16, Gift to all FreeDOS users.
>
>
> I'd really appreciate everyone testing the heck out of this. We want
> to find (and fix!) any issues that still remain.
>
> As always, please continue to test the latest FreeDOS 1.2-pre23 and
> report any issues. We'll work those fixes into the release candidate.
> You can download the pre-release version here:
>
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/
> distributions/1.2/previews/
>
> 
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