Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-05 Thread glen
On 03/04/2014 04:54 PM, Steve Smith wrote: I do it at home every night myself. In fact I hear Charles Shaw calling my name from across the room... I can't wait until his viticulturists start editing in firefly sequences so I can drink it in the dark after the electric grid crashes! I will be

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Marcus G. Daniels
Macros (in the Lisp sense) are still, as far as I know, unique to Lisp. This is partly because in order to have macros you probably have to make your language look as strange as Lisp. It may also be because if you do add that final increment of power, you can no longer claim to have invented a

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Pamela McCorduck
Merle, I missed your comment and you are certainly somebody to me P. On Mar 3, 2014, at 11:12 PM, Merle Lefkoff merlelefk...@gmail.com wrote: I commented, and I'm utterly somebody, dear Pamela. On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Pamela McCorduck pam...@well.com wrote: Utterly nobody

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Steve Smith
Pamela - I think there are *many* valid arguments up one side and down the other of this topic, just as the (false?) dichotomy between Art and Craft. I also think that while there are arguments for the deep pockets of government, there are also arguments against it. I can't find a

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Steve Smith
I apologize for getting a little off topic from the original point being made here: My rail is against two things, UberScale Science and the loss/limitation/coopting of Government Funding of Science. While the free market has some magic to it, there are times when an entity charged with

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread glen
FWIW, I thought you were spot on re: the topic. It seems to me that it doesn't matter whether the big money is from the government or the private sector. Big money implies things like big returns, cutting patients to fit tables, etc. Regardless of who employs the bureaucrat, their @ss is

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Marcus G. Daniels
On 3/4/14, 11:33 AM, glen wrote: Although I haven't participated, I think we can learn quite a bit from the outright generosity shown by Kickstarter participants. To me it is important to believe there are things inherently worth doing, and that there is someone that wants to do them and a

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Pamela McCorduck
Perhaps it was just incredibly fortunate for us that those people—Licklider, Kahn, Cerf and others—were in a position at a special time to make a dream come true. They had the ways and means to spend money, and spent it pretty wisely. Everything the pioneers did wasn’t successful—a big,

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread glen
On 03/04/2014 11:50 AM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote: On 3/4/14, 11:33 AM, glen wrote: Although I haven't participated, I think we can learn quite a bit from the outright generosity shown by Kickstarter participants. To me it is important to believe there are things inherently worth doing, and

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Grant Holland
Pamela, Shrewd observation. Going back 25+ years earlier than those people, the Cybernetics movement was a global intellectual effort that was ultimately interested in a science of mind. Most of its participants were probably academics, and it included a broad array of passions - not only

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Steve Smith
Perhaps it was just incredibly fortunate for us that those people—Licklider, Kahn, Cerf and others—were in a position at a special time to make a dream come true. They had the ways and means to spend money, and spent it pretty wisely. Everything the pioneers did wasn’t successful—a big,

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-04 Thread Steve Smith
Glen - Although I haven't participated, I think we can learn quite a bit from the outright generosity shown by Kickstarter participants. To me it is important to believe there are things inherently worth doing, and that there is someone that wants to do them and a means to get them done. I

[FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-03 Thread Pamela McCorduck
Utterly nobody in FRIAM thought my question about the shift from government led innovation to private sector led innovation was interesting enough to comment on (even to acknowledge) but I’m going to forward this piece from Dave Farber’s list which also addresses the issue and ask you again

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-03 Thread Merle Lefkoff
I didn't see your earlier post, Pamela, but it seems to be that in addition to the lure of money are (1) the shift to biological rather than physics research, perhaps because we are destroying the planet; and (2) government money for anything useful is a thing of the past. On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-03 Thread Grant Holland
Pamela, I am personally very disturbed as well. I see the trend that you are pointing out as an instance of a much larger trend. I can't quite yet characterize, or even scope, it yet. However, short-term thinking and various versions of trying-to-get-something-for-nothing seem to accompany

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-03 Thread Eric Smith
Pamela, hi I actually thought it was extremely interesting, but have no knowledge of my own to contribute. Somebody you might like is a Swedish economist (now emeritus) named Gunnar Eliasson, wwho has spent much of his career studying the detailed planning and mechanics by which

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-03 Thread Owen Densmore
Could you forward your earlier email? I don't seem to have it, and I don't believe it was part of the current thread, right? I'm interested in this because of the Small Business Innovation Research (SBIR) program that has a couple of projects here in Santa Fe, one of which Redfish is working on.

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-03 Thread Marcus G. Daniels
On 3/3/14, 8:18 AM, Grant Holland wrote: I worked for some of the best computer companies around over the next many years (Univac, Sun Microsystems, (with) Seymour Cray, others) and saw nothing but a steady decline in the centrality of

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-03 Thread Merle Lefkoff
I commented, and I'm utterly somebody, dear Pamela. On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 7:20 AM, Pamela McCorduck pam...@well.com wrote: Utterly nobody in FRIAM thought my question about the shift from government led innovation to private sector led innovation was interesting enough to comment on (even

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: [IP] Re Read re Losing a Generation of Scientists

2014-03-03 Thread Arlo Barnes
Perhaps apropos to this thread, perhaps not, is the following piece by Paul Graham (who you may know as that guy who says inflammatory things and clarifies them later, or that guy who worked at Yahoo!); the piece itself covers a larger scope, but part of it seems relevant to 'the role of