Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
Fantastic! I try to be a little absurd [‡] invoking aliens and the dark side of the moon, and Steve finds a way to make it seem reasonable. You clearly out-meta'd me on that one. [‡] Can one be a little absurd? A↛(B⇒A) and B↛(A → A), despite what 'they' tell you. On 3/28/24 16:37, Steve Smith wrote: REC sed: but the "dark side" of the moon is sunlit for half of every month? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowpiercer On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 11:33 AM glen wrote: Bandwidth might be a problem. But the dark side of the moon seems like an option ... assuming you can negotiate with the aliens that live over there. -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
I think a multi-story data center in a spar, like a deep water oil rig. Stabilizing power could be available from land since it would need to deliver power to land. The Morro bay surface water temperature is between 52 to 64F. <https://youtu.be/JpfJJ2mh8yo> [hqdefault.jpg] Spar Transportation and Installation<https://youtu.be/JpfJJ2mh8yo> youtu.be<https://youtu.be/JpfJJ2mh8yo> https://www.hofmann-heatexchanger.com/solutions/plate-heat-exchanger-for-marine On Mar 29, 2024, at 3:47 AM, David Eric Smith wrote: I wonder: Can you spin any large weight fast enough to get some gyroscopic stabilization over orientation? I think about the large gangly designs that are favored for horizontal axis-of-rotation windmills, and think they will not respond nicely to twisting deformations. It is one thing to put anchors in like guywires to keep the location fixed. But depending on how high they want to reach, orientation is another matter, and underwater currents are not helpful for orientation if you are trying to tie something to a fixed surface location. The length of cable used for large, laterally-extended moorings will probably admit some considerable flexibility. More likely they will just use sensors and active controls, using some of the power to run propellers to real-time noise-cancel water-current effects. As long as the computer doesn’t fail, you’re good. When we did ocean engineering in Texas, I learned what a hostile environment seawater is to _everything_ except maybe fish. Thinking about aging and Arecibo. Eric On Mar 28, 2024, at 3:51 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Way offshore in some cases, but also deep. Maybe the underwater mass could help hold the platform in place? https://www.aegirinsights.com/offshore-wind-in-california-faces-four-main-challenges-depth-waves-ports-and-grid-connection<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.aegirinsights.com%2foffshore-wind-in-california-faces-four-main-challenges-depth-waves-ports-and-grid-connection=E,1,ln9yoEowMSkBOcUiTtD5yBM3-7GL54AuCfrBPVIsSgK_uJY4W0NiQIo9S9EztwWqoPodyFcfgHpIOGMtxW4JEpEeK8QMD3FBC4yEWs9Qyo01b4g2=1> The moon idea reminds me of this center: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Region_Supercomputing_Center From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> Date: Thursday, March 28, 2024 at 10:33 AM To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity Bandwidth might be a problem. But the dark side of the moon seems like an option ... assuming you can negotiate with the aliens that live over there. The best thing about coral is you don't have to negotiate for their "land". You can just take it and let them die like the stupid little creatures they are. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/22/asia/south-china-sea-philippines-coral-reef-damage-intl-hnk/index.html On 3/28/24 10:17, Marcus Daniels wrote: > It's not really my thing, but I noticed there were several very large > exhibits at Supercomputing 23 for cooling technology. Even immersive > cooling solutions. I think that could be improved a lot. Without > superconducting processors, I don't see how energy use can be dramatically > reduced though. For that there will just need to be new generation.Could > put these near large off short windfarms.. > > https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/china-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center/<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.datacenterdynamics.com%2fen%2fnews%2fchina-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center%2f=E,1,my_Hq7UP1DY0EhfS61pZn5RJJCzAg8osBKQ6cIkk3jbbbrvbvPDU4Rmooepe0lX-kcBMEO5x0FrlHshFbc1AiOAklI9J9-6G-D7m7s_TQ5h2BUqbcw,,=1> > > I suppose there are some that would say gentrification is genocide -- a slow > coerced displacement. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On > Behalf Of glen > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 9:49 AM > To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity > > Maybe. But way before that happens, it will(has) force(d) the disaffected > (people, animals, plants) of any such region to die, move, or adapt. > > In the Gaza kerfuffle, I've heard some describe coerced displacement as > "genocide". I guess the more reasonble term is ethnic cleansing. The settlers > seem mostly fine with their ethnic cleansing agenda. But, by analogy, how > would we describe the coercive adaptation put upon a region by a massive > water-sucking data center? Biology cleansing? If there really were an AI, > would they worry about the forced displacement caused by their silicon > incubators? ... or maybe "incubator" isn't a good word. How about "galls": &
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
I wonder: Can you spin any large weight fast enough to get some gyroscopic stabilization over orientation? I think about the large gangly designs that are favored for horizontal axis-of-rotation windmills, and think they will not respond nicely to twisting deformations. It is one thing to put anchors in like guywires to keep the location fixed. But depending on how high they want to reach, orientation is another matter, and underwater currents are not helpful for orientation if you are trying to tie something to a fixed surface location. The length of cable used for large, laterally-extended moorings will probably admit some considerable flexibility. More likely they will just use sensors and active controls, using some of the power to run propellers to real-time noise-cancel water-current effects. As long as the computer doesn’t fail, you’re good. When we did ocean engineering in Texas, I learned what a hostile environment seawater is to _everything_ except maybe fish. Thinking about aging and Arecibo. Eric > On Mar 28, 2024, at 3:51 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Way offshore in some cases, but also deep. Maybe the underwater mass could > help hold the platform in place? > > https://www.aegirinsights.com/offshore-wind-in-california-faces-four-main-challenges-depth-waves-ports-and-grid-connection > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.aegirinsights.com%2foffshore-wind-in-california-faces-four-main-challenges-depth-waves-ports-and-grid-connection=E,1,ln9yoEowMSkBOcUiTtD5yBM3-7GL54AuCfrBPVIsSgK_uJY4W0NiQIo9S9EztwWqoPodyFcfgHpIOGMtxW4JEpEeK8QMD3FBC4yEWs9Qyo01b4g2=1> > > The moon idea reminds me of this center: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Region_Supercomputing_Center > > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on > behalf of glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> > Date: Thursday, March 28, 2024 at 10:33 AM > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity > > Bandwidth might be a problem. But the dark side of the moon seems like an > option ... assuming you can negotiate with the aliens that live over there. > The best thing about coral is you don't have to negotiate for their "land". > You can just take it and let them die like the stupid little creatures they > are. > > https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/22/asia/south-china-sea-philippines-coral-reef-damage-intl-hnk/index.html > > On 3/28/24 10:17, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > It's not really my thing, but I noticed there were several very large > > exhibits at Supercomputing 23 for cooling technology. Even immersive > > cooling solutions. I think that could be improved a lot. Without > > superconducting processors, I don't see how energy use can be dramatically > > reduced though. For that there will just need to be new generation. > > Could put these near large off short windfarms.. > > > > https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/china-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center/ > > > > <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.datacenterdynamics.com%2fen%2fnews%2fchina-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center%2f=E,1,my_Hq7UP1DY0EhfS61pZn5RJJCzAg8osBKQ6cIkk3jbbbrvbvPDU4Rmooepe0lX-kcBMEO5x0FrlHshFbc1AiOAklI9J9-6G-D7m7s_TQ5h2BUqbcw,,=1> > > > > I suppose there are some that would say gentrification is genocide -- a > > slow coerced displacement. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> > > On Behalf Of glen > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 9:49 AM > > To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity > > > > Maybe. But way before that happens, it will(has) force(d) the disaffected > > (people, animals, plants) of any such region to die, move, or adapt. > > > > In the Gaza kerfuffle, I've heard some describe coerced displacement as > > "genocide". I guess the more reasonble term is ethnic cleansing. The > > settlers seem mostly fine with their ethnic cleansing agenda. But, by > > analogy, how would we describe the coercive adaptation put upon a region by > > a massive water-sucking data center? Biology cleansing? If there really > > were an AI, would they worry about the forced displacement caused by their > > silicon incubators? ... or maybe "incubator" isn't a good word. How about > > "galls": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall Yeah, that might be a good > > analogy. The machines are parasitic. They hijack the iDNA (information > > generators) of the local biology to form galls wi
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
I’m beginning to see a design. Put underwater data centers in shallow-water sites off the coast of FLA that already hit 100F in the summer. Those are already going to be dead of anything, kind of like radioactive waste dump sites. Those sites then become magnets for hurricanes, which can all be amplified to Category 5 in their late stages, no matter how they started out. Hurricanes are very efficient conveyors of heat from the ocean to the top of the atmosphere where it can radiate into space. This cooling mechanism will of course be episodic, but with enough frequency and strength, one could compute what the average transport would be, and the fluctuation statistics. If one is going to destroy the atmosphere to play computer games, at least make use of its mechanisms at their full scale. Eric > On Mar 28, 2024, at 1:17 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > It's not really my thing, but I noticed there were several very large > exhibits at Supercomputing 23 for cooling technology. Even immersive > cooling solutions. I think that could be improved a lot. Without > superconducting processors, I don't see how energy use can be dramatically > reduced though. For that there will just need to be new generation.Could > put these near large off short windfarms.. > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.datacenterdynamics.com%2fen%2fnews%2fchina-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center%2f=E,1,iSe-Z5ZgjC33Rnu1MYasXsWIWRWbCCYpftTHj5V7qORdIAfNVrWjP6TwzQBm074VDw6l78KrK-KBcGJ3Aeumd6VItGlN5EzC4pQRlmvLxUnc=1 > > I suppose there are some that would say gentrification is genocide -- a slow > coerced displacement. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of glen > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 9:49 AM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity > > Maybe. But way before that happens, it will(has) force(d) the disaffected > (people, animals, plants) of any such region to die, move, or adapt. > > In the Gaza kerfuffle, I've heard some describe coerced displacement as > "genocide". I guess the more reasonble term is ethnic cleansing. The settlers > seem mostly fine with their ethnic cleansing agenda. But, by analogy, how > would we describe the coercive adaptation put upon a region by a massive > water-sucking data center? Biology cleansing? If there really were an AI, > would they worry about the forced displacement caused by their silicon > incubators? ... or maybe "incubator" isn't a good word. How about "galls": > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall Yeah, that might be a good analogy. The > machines are parasitic. They hijack the iDNA (information generators) of the > local biology to form galls within which they grow and thrive. > > On 3/28/24 07:51, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> It will force innovation on energy-efficient microarchitecture (e.g. Groq) >> and on renewable power generation near data centers. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Friam On Behalf Of glen >> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 7:09 AM >> To: friam@redfish.com >> Subject: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity >> >> >> As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious chatbots, >> the world burns. >> >> The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines >> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-giants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/ >> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.asce.org%2fpublications-and-news%2fcivil-engineering-source%2fcivil-engineering-magazine%2fissues%2fmagazine-issue%2farticle%2f2024%2f03%2fengineers-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool=E,1,Sop2nf9konextrtG3oBpTvI1ElsYhv_yjv16MWdXBVdBf4OCMSw4K43uIqnWn6T_W3d-dhNfncnmO9IBhqM6MBS0s_mHbHI_G9Y8EEOy=1 > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam=E,1,frSQj7JN0Q0exuyot1BV09pmXfVXvplWDG69C0Rs_BNmmYaQXOO9QIgQwHUXBwLCbWdEjWtx4zDLwr40LVk0YxBDntQAAXUMAtjb6_1w2PuJlsoX=1 > to (un)subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com=E,1,Hc1IEDjJxvY-dyPIuvQgwo_v9bL4o3YHjiaREpIpJWEP93OYLbqIK0dSnjs9zDK0Wr_kH35FTlTUBEVtAKWv1Ec8DNN5n-8_YGlKw-odVYR2ywqglyiT9QkpgA,,=1 > FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f=E,1,PK0Yn_OY8qI1PrXjPd7fY4JaRdZhGINKusDk6fPpfg07TIno5kgKYt4aqFZtgKz2-fXsNC3dpA2THEk1zq2oTSjPE5QPtHKVuDx6Krj4czQv_pwLLDHt4cgORUE,=1 > archives: 5/2017 thru
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
Back in the 70s my father, who was a nuclear engineer, said that if nuclear energy weren't pursued aggressively there would be energy riots by 2050. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Mar 28, 2024, 7:42 PM Marcus Daniels wrote: > > https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/microsoft-hires-erin-henderson-to-head-nuclear-development-acceleration-for-data-centers/ > > -Original Message- > From: Friam On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 6:34 PM > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity > > Published a paper couple of years back — IT is not Sustainable. One point > was power consumption: known server-farms at that time used more energy per > year than the UK. Less than 10% came from renewable sources. > > Not included were all the “secret” farms in Russia, China, etc., or > centers like the NSA facility west of Salt Lake City. > > Davew > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2024, at 9:08 AM, glen wrote: > > As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious > > chatbots, the world burns. > > > > The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines > > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-gi > > ants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/ > > > > https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/ci > > vil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/enginee > > rs-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool > > > > -- > > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > archives: 5/2017 thru present > > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/microsoft-hires-erin-henderson-to-head-nuclear-development-acceleration-for-data-centers/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 6:34 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity Published a paper couple of years back — IT is not Sustainable. One point was power consumption: known server-farms at that time used more energy per year than the UK. Less than 10% came from renewable sources. Not included were all the “secret” farms in Russia, China, etc., or centers like the NSA facility west of Salt Lake City. Davew On Thu, Mar 28, 2024, at 9:08 AM, glen wrote: > As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious > chatbots, the world burns. > > The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-gi > ants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/ > > https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/ci > vil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/enginee > rs-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
Published a paper couple of years back — IT is not Sustainable. One point was power consumption: known server-farms at that time used more energy per year than the UK. Less than 10% came from renewable sources. Not included were all the “secret” farms in Russia, China, etc., or centers like the NSA facility west of Salt Lake City. Davew On Thu, Mar 28, 2024, at 9:08 AM, glen wrote: > As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious > chatbots, the world burns. > > The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-giants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/ > > https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/civil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/engineers-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
REC sed:
but the "dark side" of the moon is sunlit for half of every month?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowpiercer
On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 11:33 AM glen wrote:
Bandwidth might be a problem. But the dark side of the moon seems
like an option ... assuming you can negotiate with the aliens that
live over there. The best thing about coral is you don't have to
negotiate for their "land". You can just take it and let them die
like the stupid little creatures they are.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/22/asia/south-china-sea-philippines-coral-reef-damage-intl-hnk/index.html
On 3/28/24 10:17, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It's not really my thing, but I noticed there were several very
large exhibits at Supercomputing 23 for cooling technology. Even
immersive cooling solutions. I think that could be improved a
lot. Without superconducting processors, I don't see how energy
use can be dramatically reduced though. For that there will just
need to be new generation. Could put these near large off short
windfarms..
>
>
https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/china-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center/
>
> I suppose there are some that would say gentrification is
genocide -- a slow coerced displacement.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam On Behalf Of glen
> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 9:49 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
>
> Maybe. But way before that happens, it will(has) force(d) the
disaffected (people, animals, plants) of any such region to die,
move, or adapt.
>
> In the Gaza kerfuffle, I've heard some describe coerced
displacement as "genocide". I guess the more reasonble term is
ethnic cleansing. The settlers seem mostly fine with their ethnic
cleansing agenda. But, by analogy, how would we describe the
coercive adaptation put upon a region by a massive water-sucking
data center? Biology cleansing? If there really were an AI, would
they worry about the forced displacement caused by their silicon
incubators? ... or maybe "incubator" isn't a good word. How about
"galls": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall Yeah, that might be a
good analogy. The machines are parasitic. They hijack the iDNA
(information generators) of the local biology to form galls within
which they grow and thrive.
>
> On 3/28/24 07:51, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> It will force innovation on energy-efficient microarchitecture
(e.g. Groq) and on renewable power generation near data centers.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam On Behalf Of glen
>> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 7:09 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
>>
>>
>> As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with
obsequious chatbots, the world burns.
>>
>> The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-giants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/
>>
>>
https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/civil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/engineers-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool
>
--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
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Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
but the "dark side" of the moon is sunlit for half of every month? On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 11:33 AM glen wrote: > Bandwidth might be a problem. But the dark side of the moon seems like an > option ... assuming you can negotiate with the aliens that live over there. > The best thing about coral is you don't have to negotiate for their "land". > You can just take it and let them die like the stupid little creatures they > are. > > > https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/22/asia/south-china-sea-philippines-coral-reef-damage-intl-hnk/index.html > > On 3/28/24 10:17, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > It's not really my thing, but I noticed there were several very large > exhibits at Supercomputing 23 for cooling technology. Even immersive > cooling solutions. I think that could be improved a lot. Without > superconducting processors, I don't see how energy use can be dramatically > reduced though. For that there will just need to be new generation. > Could put these near large off short windfarms.. > > > > > https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/china-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center/ > > > > I suppose there are some that would say gentrification is genocide -- a > slow coerced displacement. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Friam On Behalf Of glen > > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 9:49 AM > > To: friam@redfish.com > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity > > > > Maybe. But way before that happens, it will(has) force(d) the > disaffected (people, animals, plants) of any such region to die, move, or > adapt. > > > > In the Gaza kerfuffle, I've heard some describe coerced displacement as > "genocide". I guess the more reasonble term is ethnic cleansing. The > settlers seem mostly fine with their ethnic cleansing agenda. But, by > analogy, how would we describe the coercive adaptation put upon a region by > a massive water-sucking data center? Biology cleansing? If there really > were an AI, would they worry about the forced displacement caused by their > silicon incubators? ... or maybe "incubator" isn't a good word. How about > "galls": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall Yeah, that might be a good > analogy. The machines are parasitic. They hijack the iDNA (information > generators) of the local biology to form galls within which they grow and > thrive. > > > > On 3/28/24 07:51, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> It will force innovation on energy-efficient microarchitecture (e.g. > Groq) and on renewable power generation near data centers. > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: Friam On Behalf Of glen > >> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 7:09 AM > >> To: friam@redfish.com > >> Subject: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity > >> > >> > >> As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious > chatbots, the world burns. > >> > >> The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines > https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-giants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/ > >> > >> > https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/civil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/engineers-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool > > > > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
/Heat Death by Computation/ Geoffrey Hinton (who left Google in May 2023 so he could speak more freely/agenda-less-ish?) gives good lecture on the topic of the differences between wetware/analog (i.e. Human Cortex) computation (for intelligence/consciousness) and silicon/digital and why human brains can do what they do with ~20-30W compared to digital computer's attempting to do even a fraction of the same tasks require thousands of Watts (or much more since none have uniquivocally achieved AGI). He attributes it (roughly) to the differences in "style" of computation and how analog computing without overly strict concerns about reproduceability and zero error rates can outperform on the tasks they do (and conversely why a simple calculator, even a mechanical one, can often outperform all but the most savant-like humans easily on a tiny amount of power (think 70's solar-cell handhelds). While I think that our voracious computational/informational appliances/infrastructure/habits (see my own fascination with GPT/DALL-E) are like (maybe?) everything we do, unbounded by anything but pushback from the environment. The evolutionary push/pull that made us into the versatile creatures we are set us up to take/use until there is nothing left. We have millenia of history trying to build self-regulating systems/principles (sacred rites to nature, personification of nature as-gods with rewards/wrath for not respecting them, rules about "commons", the EPA, etc. adn.) and yet the more aggressive or clever (sometimes both-ish... Musk...) always stay ahead of the rules... sometimes by being scoff-laws, but always (at least) ignoring the spirit while following or gaming the letter of it. To the extent that our extant attempts to rein in our (un)enlightened (overly tightly scoped) self-interest) in is something of an Artificial Intelligence (I claim all bureaucracies are AI's, oft very inefficient, cumbersome, narrowly focused and/or mal-formed) then we might expect that is the *best* our incipient massive AI systems will be? Or perhaps this is our greatest challenge/opportunity to recognize the leverage they will be giving "us" over "ourselves" (one-another) and seek to transcend or previous (and current and foreseeable) worst habits/instincts/practices? This might be the inflection point in the Drake Equation <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation>: //N = R/ x fp x ne x fl x fi x fc x L /(Sagan and others have suggested additional factors to describe humanity's propensity for self-destruction). As a hard SF enthusiast, I'm always a little fascinated by the idea of every star (single or binary) system hosting technological civilization(s) hitting a singularity where they essentially become a Dyson Sphere very quickly once a certain level of technical capability is achieved. A nanotech (or better) sphere of "computronium) collecting the power-flux from the star/system and transforming it into computation/information and low-grade heat I'm sure someone (Niven, Vinge, Clarke, Asimov, Dyson, Sagan/SETI ???) has done the calculations to guess what spectrum to be looking in for such signatures? Mumble, - Steve On 3/28/24 11:17 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: It's not really my thing, but I noticed there were several very large exhibits at Supercomputing 23 for cooling technology. Even immersive cooling solutions. I think that could be improved a lot. Without superconducting processors, I don't see how energy use can be dramatically reduced though. For that there will just need to be new generation.Could put these near large off short windfarms.. https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/china-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center/ I suppose there are some that would say gentrification is genocide -- a slow coerced displacement. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 9:49 AM To:friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity Maybe. But way before that happens, it will(has) force(d) the disaffected (people, animals, plants) of any such region to die, move, or adapt. In the Gaza kerfuffle, I've heard some describe coerced displacement as "genocide". I guess the more reasonble term is ethnic cleansing. The settlers seem mostly fine with their ethnic cleansing agenda. But, by analogy, how would we describe the coercive adaptation put upon a region by a massive water-sucking data center? Biology cleansing? If there really were an AI, would they worry about the forced displacement caused by their silicon incubators? ... or maybe "incubator" isn't a good word. How about "galls":https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall Yeah, that might be a good analogy. The machines are parasitic. They hijack the iDNA (information generators) of the local biology to form galls within which they grow and thr
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
I feel like what we really need are wet computers <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_computing> ... we have all this peri-computation going on around us all over the place, in cells, chemistry, protein morphogenesis, etc. But we're just so ignorant and ham-handed w.r.t. that computation, we have to plow it down and and pave it over with our own conception of computing ... like some myopic 18th century biological control strategy. I mean... I guess we're getting there. But. It's. S. Slw. On 3/28/24 12:51, Marcus Daniels wrote: Way offshore in some cases, but also deep. Maybe the underwater mass could help hold the platform in place? https://www.aegirinsights.com/offshore-wind-in-california-faces-four-main-challenges-depth-waves-ports-and-grid-connection <https://www.aegirinsights.com/offshore-wind-in-california-faces-four-main-challenges-depth-waves-ports-and-grid-connection> The moon idea reminds me of this center: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Region_Supercomputing_Center <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Region_Supercomputing_Center> *From: *Friam on behalf of glen *Date: *Thursday, March 28, 2024 at 10:33 AM *To: *friam@redfish.com *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity Bandwidth might be a problem. But the dark side of the moon seems like an option ... assuming you can negotiate with the aliens that live over there. The best thing about coral is you don't have to negotiate for their "land". You can just take it and let them die like the stupid little creatures they are. https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/22/asia/south-china-sea-philippines-coral-reef-damage-intl-hnk/index.html <https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/22/asia/south-china-sea-philippines-coral-reef-damage-intl-hnk/index.html> On 3/28/24 10:17, Marcus Daniels wrote: It's not really my thing, but I noticed there were several very large exhibits at Supercomputing 23 for cooling technology. Even immersive cooling solutions. I think that could be improved a lot. Without superconducting processors, I don't see how energy use can be dramatically reduced though. For that there will just need to be new generation. Could put these near large off short windfarms.. https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/china-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center/ <https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/china-deploys-1400-ton-commercial-underwater-data-center/> I suppose there are some that would say gentrification is genocide -- a slow coerced displacement. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 9:49 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity Maybe. But way before that happens, it will(has) force(d) the disaffected (people, animals, plants) of any such region to die, move, or adapt. In the Gaza kerfuffle, I've heard some describe coerced displacement as "genocide". I guess the more reasonble term is ethnic cleansing. The settlers seem mostly fine with their ethnic cleansing agenda. But, by analogy, how would we describe the coercive adaptation put upon a region by a massive water-sucking data center? Biology cleansing? If there really were an AI, would they worry about the forced displacement caused by their silicon incubators? ... or maybe "incubator" isn't a good word. How about "galls": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall> Yeah, that might be a good analogy. The machines are parasitic. They hijack the iDNA (information generators) of the local biology to form galls within which they grow and thrive. On 3/28/24 07:51, Marcus Daniels wrote: It will force innovation on energy-efficient microarchitecture (e.g. Groq) and on renewable power generation near data centers. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 7:09 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious chatbots, the world burns. The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-giants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/ <https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-giants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/> https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/civil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/engineers-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool <https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/civil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/engineers-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool> -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursd
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
Maybe. But way before that happens, it will(has) force(d) the disaffected (people, animals, plants) of any such region to die, move, or adapt. In the Gaza kerfuffle, I've heard some describe coerced displacement as "genocide". I guess the more reasonble term is ethnic cleansing. The settlers seem mostly fine with their ethnic cleansing agenda. But, by analogy, how would we describe the coercive adaptation put upon a region by a massive water-sucking data center? Biology cleansing? If there really were an AI, would they worry about the forced displacement caused by their silicon incubators? ... or maybe "incubator" isn't a good word. How about "galls": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gall Yeah, that might be a good analogy. The machines are parasitic. They hijack the iDNA (information generators) of the local biology to form galls within which they grow and thrive. On 3/28/24 07:51, Marcus Daniels wrote: It will force innovation on energy-efficient microarchitecture (e.g. Groq) and on renewable power generation near data centers. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 7:09 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious chatbots, the world burns. The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-giants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/ https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/civil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/engineers-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
Re: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity
It will force innovation on energy-efficient microarchitecture (e.g. Groq) and on renewable power generation near data centers. -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of glen Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2024 7:09 AM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: [FRIAM] death by ubiquity As we frivolously replace meatspace conversation with obsequious chatbots, the world burns. The industry more damaging to the environment than airlines https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/05/30/silicon-valley-data-giants-net-zero-sustainability-risk/ https://www.asce.org/publications-and-news/civil-engineering-source/civil-engineering-magazine/issues/magazine-issue/article/2024/03/engineers-often-need-a-lot-of-water-to-keep-data-centers-cool -- ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
