subject:"Re\: \[FRIAM\] the Skeptical Meme"

Roger writes:

"And perhaps that's what we need, institutionalized cyber gang warfare."

I suppose one could target OSI layer 4 and below, but that amounts to various 
kinds of denial of service.  Crude.

On the other hand, high-level attacks are forms of what Glen said -- 
"humiliation and humor" amount to sophisticated trolling.  That requires a 
sustained effort by people that can afford to take the time and are reasonably 
good at modeling and manipulating people.   Labor intensive and expensive.

I would like to see some robust automated control systems.  To do that it is 
necessary to pressure Facebook and Twitter to participate.

I believe they are working on it and talking about reliable third parties to 
judge content.I imagine natural language systems that detect well-known 
lies as instances of entries in a credible fact-checkers database.   Such 
systems would also be useful to tag jihadists and other people that are coming 
undone.  Of course, even if these systems exist and work perfectly, one has to 
assume that the audience doesn't want to be lied to.   So it is is, in the end, 
really cyber warfare.  Might makes right.

Marcus

From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Roger Critchlow 
<r...@elf.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 4:29:38 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

I think a ballistic vest would work as well as motorcycle gear for center of 
mass defense.  Dress it up for cos play and you'll have the replacement for pro 
wrestling and other prize fighting entertainments.

By the way, are we taking down the nascent alt-right-web yet?   They're going 
to reinvent the internet to route around the censorship, and I think this is 
going to be the first real cyber war.

And perhaps that's what we need, institutionalized cyber gang warfare.  As the 
Pallio tamed the neighborhood gang conflict in Siena into twice yearly anything 
goes horse races, take all this must do the right/wrong/good/evil/offensive 
thing energy and turn it into e-riots, or irl riots with cos play armor.

-- rec --

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 5:23 PM, gⅼеɳ 
<geprope...@gmail.com<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I'm not so sure.  If I had a pistol and were inclined to use it, my inclination 
would only go *up* if you tased the guy next to me ... or even looked like you 
were going to do so.  I think tasers might increase everyone's chances of being 
wounded or killed, rather than decreasing it.  My guess is it's flat-out better 
to let them beat on you than to take any offensive path at all.

On 08/17/2017 01:34 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Thus  tasers..  couple a set of them with a Prius's battery so that reload is 
> not a problem.
> Then some body armor for the Prius.On the high end, a Tesla Model S could 
> just turn targets into smoke if need be.

--
gⅼеɳ

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

The Future Primaeval is still up: 
http://thefutureprimaeval.net/this-is-the-future-primaeval/
NrX sites are mostly still up: http://neoreaction.net/ http://hestiasociety.org/

More Right is gone.  Mike Anissimov's Twitter account is gone.

Moldbug's garbage is still up:
http://www.thedarkenlightenment.com/moldbugs-gentle-introduction/
http://moldbuggery.blogspot.com/

It seems to me that the neo-nazis and "ethnic nationalists" are easy enough to 
recognize as silly idealists.  But the NrX guys pack more of a punch.  Their 
ideas are a bit like the insidious Sam Harris, who slathers his right wing 
ideas in a tasty sauce of rationalism.  But I don't know if the right answer is 
to take out their platforms.  It seems to me humiliation and humor are the 
right paths.  (cf. Harris' interaction with Chomsky)

On 08/17/2017 03:29 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> I think a ballistic vest would work as well as motorcycle gear for center
> of mass defense.  Dress it up for cos play and you'll have the replacement
> for pro wrestling and other prize fighting entertainments.
> 
> By the way, are we taking down the nascent alt-right-web yet?   They're
> going to reinvent the internet to route around the censorship, and I think
> this is going to be the first real cyber war.
> 
> And perhaps that's what we need, institutionalized cyber gang warfare.  As
> the Pallio tamed the neighborhood gang conflict in Siena into twice yearly
> anything goes horse races, take all this must do the
> right/wrong/good/evil/offensive thing energy and turn it into e-riots, or
> irl riots with cos play armor.

-- 
gⅼеɳ

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

2017-08-17 Thread Roger Critchlow

I think a ballistic vest would work as well as motorcycle gear for center
of mass defense.  Dress it up for cos play and you'll have the replacement
for pro wrestling and other prize fighting entertainments.

By the way, are we taking down the nascent alt-right-web yet?   They're
going to reinvent the internet to route around the censorship, and I think
this is going to be the first real cyber war.

And perhaps that's what we need, institutionalized cyber gang warfare.  As
the Pallio tamed the neighborhood gang conflict in Siena into twice yearly
anything goes horse races, take all this must do the
right/wrong/good/evil/offensive thing energy and turn it into e-riots, or
irl riots with cos play armor.

-- rec --

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 5:23 PM, gⅼеɳ  wrote:

> I'm not so sure.  If I had a pistol and were inclined to use it, my
> inclination would only go *up* if you tased the guy next to me ... or even
> looked like you were going to do so.  I think tasers might increase
> everyone's chances of being wounded or killed, rather than decreasing it.
> My guess is it's flat-out better to let them beat on you than to take any
> offensive path at all.
>
> On 08/17/2017 01:34 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Thus  tasers..  couple a set of them with a Prius's battery so that
> reload is not a problem.
> > Then some body armor for the Prius.On the high end, a Tesla Model S
> could just turn targets into smoke if need be.
>
>
> --
> gⅼеɳ
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Gah.  Add more technology:  Persistence airborne surveillance of the event to 
estimate nearby risks and advise participants.  
Make an app for that.And above all be sneaky about actions on the ground.   
Anyway, I see your point. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g???
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:24 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

I'm not so sure.  If I had a pistol and were inclined to use it, my inclination 
would only go *up* if you tased the guy next to me ... or even looked like you 
were going to do so.  I think tasers might increase everyone's chances of being 
wounded or killed, rather than decreasing it.  My guess is it's flat-out better 
to let them beat on you than to take any offensive path at all.

On 08/17/2017 01:34 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Thus  tasers..  couple a set of them with a Prius's battery so that reload is 
> not a problem.  
> Then some body armor for the Prius.On the high end, a Tesla Model S could 
> just turn targets into smoke if need be. 

--
gⅼеɳ

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Thus  tasers..  couple a set of them with a Prius's battery so that reload is 
not a problem.  
Then some body armor for the Prius.On the high end, a Tesla Model S could 
just turn targets into smoke if need be. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g???
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 2:25 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Yeah, bullets are another matter entirely.  It's easy to be "pure defense" with 
sticks and such.  Self-defense in the context of bullets is one of incoherent, 
asymmetric, or preemptive.  People who tell me they have a gun for self-defense 
risk a confrontation.  Guns are purely offensive.  They are nothing but murder 
weapons ... unless you're good enough to hit the other guys bullet with your 
bullet!  So, when someone says guns are for self-defense, what they really mean 
is they intend to murder people if they feel threatened.

On 08/17/2017 01:02 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Think combining Charlottesville and Kent State..  Not pleasant to think about 
> but is it completely preposterous?  I don't think so.  
> Yes, every stylish urban pastor these days has a Kevlar robe!  

--
gⅼеɳ

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Yeah, bullets are another matter entirely.  It's easy to be "pure defense" with 
sticks and such.  Self-defense in the context of bullets is one of incoherent, 
asymmetric, or preemptive.  People who tell me they have a gun for self-defense 
risk a confrontation.  Guns are purely offensive.  They are nothing but murder 
weapons ... unless you're good enough to hit the other guys bullet with your 
bullet!  So, when someone says guns are for self-defense, what they really mean 
is they intend to murder people if they feel threatened.

On 08/17/2017 01:02 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Think combining Charlottesville and Kent State..  Not pleasant to think about 
> but is it completely preposterous?  I don't think so.  
> Yes, every stylish urban pastor these days has a Kevlar robe!  

-- 
gⅼеɳ

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Think combining Charlottesville and Kent State..  Not pleasant to think about 
but is it completely preposterous?  I don't think so.  
Yes, every stylish urban pastor these days has a Kevlar robe!  

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g???
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:52 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Body armor is necessary.  My motorcycle jacket has nearly invisible pads for 
the elbows, shoulders, and back.  Augment that with some shin and arm guards 
and you'd be surprised at how much easier it is to defend yourself and others.  
But the most important gear is your mouth guard.  Those chants are stupid 
anyway. >8^D

On 08/17/2017 12:36 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Hold the line, but if violence is used to break it, adopt a liberal 
> definition of self-defense.   I would have some concern of the tendency of a 
> stick to fragment and not deliver enough energy. 

--
gⅼеɳ

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Body armor is necessary.  My motorcycle jacket has nearly invisible pads for 
the elbows, shoulders, and back.  Augment that with some shin and arm guards 
and you'd be surprised at how much easier it is to defend yourself and others.  
But the most important gear is your mouth guard.  Those chants are stupid 
anyway. >8^D

On 08/17/2017 12:36 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Hold the line, but if violence is used to break it, adopt a liberal 
> definition of self-defense.   I would have some concern of the tendency of a 
> stick to fragment and not deliver enough energy. 

-- 
gⅼеɳ

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme


On 08/16/2017 09:56 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

I was intrigued by this tweet:

  https://twitter.com/veryapetv/status/898240260550909952

Here's the full text for the 1st quote:

> Sir, -- Having experienced fascism in the flesh, as a citizen of a 
> Nazi-occupied country, a member of the resistance and a concentration camp 
> prisoner, I am profoundly dismayed by Kevin Myers's reflections on the 
> happenings at TCD on the occasion of the David Irving debate.
> 
> If fascism could be defeated in debate, I assure you that it would never have 
> happened, neither in Germany, nor in Italy, nor anywhere else.  Those who 
> recognized its threat at that time and tried to stop it were, I assume, also 
> called "a mob".  Regrettably too many "fair-minded people" didn't either try, 
> or want to stop it, and, as I witnessed myself during the war, accommodated 
> themselves with it when it took over.
> 
> The anti-fascism of some of these people germinated rather late, in fact only 
> when they realized that the Third Reich had lost the war, the Führer was 
> becoming an embarrassment and his system of government a liability.
> 
> People who witnessed fascism at its height are dying out, but the ideology is 
> still there, and its apologists are working hard at a comeback.  Past 
> experience should teach us that fascism must be stopped before it takes hold 
> again of too many minds, and becomes useful once again to some powerful 
> interests, as it happened in the thirties, or in Chile.  I am one hundred per 
> cent behind the students and staff at TCD, and congratulate them for showing 
> the way. -- Yours, etc., F. L. Frison, 69 Newtown Avenue, Blackrock, Co 
> Dublin.

Here's the snopes entry on the 2nd quote (supposedly from Hitler):

  http://www.snopes.com/adolf-hitler-smashing-the-nucleus/

And the third quote about clicktivism is just (apt) snark.  But there's a big 
difference between "chasing them away with sticks" and "holding the line".  The 
former is bad.  The latter is good.

-- 
gⅼеɳ


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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

2017-08-17 Thread Gillian Densmore

Yeah their's some trolls that for what ever reason just like to troll. They
are still trolls though.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:49 PM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> The strangest thing I saw today was this video
>
>   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnXBeQwmmrc
>
> To be honest, he likes to be offensive.  No deep roots of xenophobia, he's
> open to all kinds of offensiveness.
>
> -- rec --
>
> 
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

2017-08-16 Thread Marcus Daniels

https://buy.taser.com/taser-bolt/

Roger writes:

< The strangest thing I saw today was this video

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnXBeQwmmrc

>

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

Never thought I'd donate to a church or synagogue, but I wonder if a few of 
these<https://buy.taser.com/taser-bolt/> would be tax deductible?

Marcus





From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Roger Critchlow 
<r...@elf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 7:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

The strangest thing I saw today was this video

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnXBeQwmmrc

To be honest, he likes to be offensive.  No deep roots of xenophobia, he's open 
to all kinds of offensiveness.

-- rec --

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

2017-08-16 Thread Roger Critchlow

The strangest thing I saw today was this video

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnXBeQwmmrc

To be honest, he likes to be offensive.  No deep roots of xenophobia, he's
open to all kinds of offensiveness.

-- rec --

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

2017-08-16 Thread Merle Lefkoff

 of his life for having had enough perspective to shield him from
>> the worst of that and to encourage/help him "just leave".   His chronicle
>> (I also listened to an NPR book interview when it came out maybe a year
>> ago) includes feeling that he had "done everything in his power to waste
>> his life up until about 18 years old" and looking at his cohort and family,
>> might use the term "but for the grace of God, there go I".
>>
>>
>> My Pollyanna (a fairly significant player in my personal Pantheon of
>> Personalities which helps me cope with the kinds of Cosmic Ennui and
>> Existential Angst that comes with trying to be a thinking/caring person in
>> these hyper-connected, seemingly chaotic times) has me looking for a
>> "bright side" of all of this.
>>
>> I particularly want to call out the following quote from Marcus:
>>
>> *A healthy society is one where individuals can mature to the point they
>> can begin to doubt the meaning in their own anxiety (whether by themselves,
>> with their shrink or their spiritual authority) and make it to the next
>> day.*
>>
>> and offer a rewording (my words are *underlined*) or expansion:
>>
>> "*whether with themselves, their shrink, their spiritual authority,* *or
>> their community of emergently self-enlightened people*"
>>
>> and
>>
>> "*and make it **beyond** the next day* *and into a new era of
>> contagious enlightened self-interest*"
>>
>> I hope that if we can ever get through this acutely dark/inverted time
>> that we can follow some of the example of Nelson Mandela in his perspective
>> and leadership out of the centuries long oppression of his people that was
>> most recently exhibited as Apartheid.   Obviously that moment was only a
>> partial antidote, as too many of the original problems linger or arise
>> again.   But I *think* it was a better solution than to the similarly
>> genocidal/punative response many of his people were calling for when the
>> descendents of their Colonial Overlords finally fell.
>>
>> I heard recently a quote from Barbara Boxer as she left the political
>> stage after many decades:
>> "No victory is final"
>>
>> This underscores why we are dealing with the rise of
>> white-supremacy/nazi/confederate/kkk, gender oppression,  and many other
>> battles presumed to have been won.   This moment (in most places) is
>> nothing like the conditions of the antebellum South, nor the era of
>> Nazi/Fascist power in Europe, but there are clearly strong echoes.   Such
>> things *might* be suppressed temporarily by force, but ultimately those
>> kinds of behaviours/activities dissipate through healing and enlightenment
>> much more than regulation/punishment/suppression.
>>
>> my $.02,
>>  - Steve
>>
>> On 8/16/17 9:10 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>
>> Eric writes:
>>
>>
>> < It is not so far from Nietzche’s notion that “God is dead” creates a
>> problem for people, and they will face a fork in the road in how they try
>> to deal with it. >
>>
>>
>> Yeah, it is probably nothing new that is happening nor a new
>> interpretation.   Institutions of various kinds can give individuals a
>> role to play and guidelines for conduct, but a highly interconnected
>> population with a complex economy will stress these institutions and reveal
>> their limitations.   Meanwhile, only exceptional and delusional individuals
>> can really make a convincing case (esp. to themselves) about their unique
>> value either coupled-to or uncoupled-from from institutions.   However, I
>> fear the stakes are pretty high now -- the contagion of people going
>> bonkers could be fast with social media.   A healthy society is one where
>> individuals can mature to the point they can begin to doubt the meaning in
>> their own anxiety (whether by themselves, with their shrink or their
>> spiritual authority) and make it to the next day.
>>
>>
>> Marcus
>> --
>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on
>> behalf of Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> <desm...@santafe.edu>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:56:23 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme
>>
>>
>> > Their desperation and rage just comes from a feeling that they can't
>> confront, that they just don't have much to offer.
>>

Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

2017-08-16 Thread gⅼеɳ

FWIW:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openness_to_experience#Genes_and_physiology

> Openness to experience, like the other traits in the five factor model, is 
> believed to have a genetic component. Identical twins (who have the same DNA) 
> show similar scores on openness to experience, even when they have been 
> adopted into different families and raised in very different 
> environments.[44] One genetic study with 86 subjects found Openness to 
> experience related to the 5-HTTLPR polymorphism associated with the serotonin 
> transporter gene.[45]
> 
> Higher levels of openness have been linked to activity in the ascending 
> dopaminergic system and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex. Openness is the 
> only personality trait that correlates with neuropsychological tests of 
> dorsolateral prefrontal cortical function, supporting theoretical links among 
> openness, cognitive functioning, and IQ.[46]
> 
> 44. Jang, K. L., Livesly, W. J., & Vemon, P. A.; Livesley; Vernon (September 
> 1996). "Heritability of the big five personality dimensions and their facets: 
> A twin study". Journal of Personality. 64 (3): 577–592. PMID 8776880. 
> doi:10./j.1467-6494.1996.tb00522.x.
> 45. Scott F. Stoltenberg, Geoffrey R. Twitchell, Gregory L. Hanna, Edwin H. 
> Cook, Hiram E. Fitzgerald, Robert A. Zucker, Karley Y. Little; Twitchell; 
> Hanna; Cook; Fitzgerald; Zucker; Little (March 2002). "Serotonin transporter 
> promoter polymorphism, peripheral indexes of serotonin function, and 
> personality measures in families with alcoholism". American Journal of 
> Medical Genetics. 114 (2): 230–234. PMID 11857587. doi:10.1002/ajmg.10187.
> 46. Colin G. DeYoung, Jordan B. Peterson and Daniel M. Higgins (2005). 
> "Sources of openness/intellect: cognitive and neuropsychological correlates 
> of the fifth factor of personality". Journal of Personality. 73 (4): 825–858. 
> PMID 15958136. doi:10./j.1467-6494.2005.00330.x.


On 08/16/2017 04:30 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> On the other hand, while members of said community/group/tribe/pack/herd 
> might extend some of that goodwill toward others they recognized as 
> same/thePeople, they had good reason to be less generous/trusting toward 
> others who were not so familiar, who spoke unrecognizeable languages, whose 
> skin/hair/eye color or features were significantly different.   I think these 
> are very real evolutionarily adaptive roots of what we see as Xenophobia 
> today.

-- 
gⅼеɳ


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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

/A healthy society is one where individuals can mature to the
point they can begin to doubt the meaning in their own
anxiety (whether by themselves, with their shrink or their
spiritual authority) and make it to the next day. /

and offer a rewording (my words are _underlined_) or expansion:

"/whether with themselves, their shrink, their spiritual
authority,/ _or their community of emergently self-enlightened
people_"

and

"/and make it /_beyond_/the next day/ _and into a new era of
contagious enlightened self-interest_"

I hope that if we can ever get through this acutely dark/inverted
time that we can follow some of the example of Nelson Mandela in
his perspective and leadership out of the centuries long
oppression of his people that was most recently exhibited as
Apartheid.   Obviously that moment was only a partial antidote, as
too many of the original problems linger or arise again.   But I
*think* it was a better solution than to the similarly
genocidal/punative response many of his people were calling for
when the descendents of their Colonial Overlords finally fell.

I heard recently a quote from Barbara Boxer as she left the
political stage after many decades:
"No victory is final"

This underscores why we are dealing with the rise of
white-supremacy/nazi/confederate/kkk, gender oppression,  and many
other battles presumed to have been won.   This moment (in most
places) is nothing like the conditions of the antebellum South,
nor the era of Nazi/Fascist power in Europe, but there are clearly
strong echoes.   Such things *might* be suppressed temporarily by
force, but ultimately those kinds of behaviours/activities
dissipate through healing and enlightenment much more than
regulation/punishment/suppression.

my $.02,
 - Steve

On 8/16/17 9:10 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Eric writes:

< It is not so far from Nietzche’s notion that “God is dead”
creates a problem for people, and they will face a fork in the
road in how they try to deal with it. >

Yeah, it is probably nothing new that is happening nor a new
interpretation.  Institutions of various kinds can give
individuals a role to play and guidelines for conduct, but a
highly interconnected population with a complex economy will
stress these institutions and reveal their limitations.  
Meanwhile, only exceptional and delusional individuals can really

make a convincing case (esp. to themselves) about their unique
value either coupled-to or uncoupled-from from institutions.  
However, I fear the stakes are pretty high now -- the contagion

of people going bonkers could be fast with social media.   A
healthy society is one where individuals can mature to the point
they can begin to doubt the meaning in their own anxiety (whether
by themselves, with their shrink or their spiritual authority)
and make it to the next day.

Marcus

*From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com>
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Eric Smith
<desm...@santafe.edu> <mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:56:23 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

> Their desperation and rage just comes from a feeling that they
can't confront, that they just don't have much to offer.
>
> Marcus

Reading this, I feel like you could found a new generation of
something that is like existentialist philosophy but equally-well
political theory.

It is not so far from Nietzche’s notion that “God is dead”
creates a problem for people, and they will face a fork in the
road in how they try to deal with it.  Maybe even, considering
the currents running through European and particularly German
society at the time he was writing (and that he specifically
wrote about), driven by concerns based on similar observations.

It strikes me that this is an available point of view for almost
any person.  Granted, the distribution of rewards and
frustrations differs from person to person and also from region
to region, and that matters.  But the black box (black hole?) of
how minds form characters and orientations in response to streams
of these things draws from an immense and to me-obscure range of
inputs.

Makes me wonder,

Eric

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

2017-08-16 Thread Merle Lefkoff

to have been won.
> This moment (in most places) is nothing like the conditions of the
> antebellum South, nor the era of Nazi/Fascist power in Europe, but there
> are clearly strong echoes.   Such things *might* be suppressed temporarily
> by force, but ultimately those kinds of behaviours/activities dissipate
> through healing and enlightenment much more than regulation/punishment/
> suppression.
>
> my $.02,
>  - Steve
>
> On 8/16/17 9:10 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Eric writes:
>
>
> < It is not so far from Nietzche’s notion that “God is dead” creates a
> problem for people, and they will face a fork in the road in how they try
> to deal with it. >
>
>
> Yeah, it is probably nothing new that is happening nor a new
> interpretation.   Institutions of various kinds can give individuals a
> role to play and guidelines for conduct, but a highly interconnected
> population with a complex economy will stress these institutions and reveal
> their limitations.   Meanwhile, only exceptional and delusional individuals
> can really make a convincing case (esp. to themselves) about their unique
> value either coupled-to or uncoupled-from from institutions.   However, I
> fear the stakes are pretty high now -- the contagion of people going
> bonkers could be fast with social media.   A healthy society is one where
> individuals can mature to the point they can begin to doubt the meaning in
> their own anxiety (whether by themselves, with their shrink or their
> spiritual authority) and make it to the next day.
>
>
> Marcus
> --
> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on
> behalf of Eric Smith <desm...@santafe.edu> <desm...@santafe.edu>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:56:23 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme
>
>
> > Their desperation and rage just comes from a feeling that they can't
> confront, that they just don't have much to offer.
> >
> > Marcus
>
> Reading this, I feel like you could found a new generation of something
> that is like existentialist philosophy but equally-well political theory.
>
> It is not so far from Nietzche’s notion that “God is dead” creates a
> problem for people, and they will face a fork in the road in how they try
> to deal with it.  Maybe even, considering the currents running through
> European and particularly German society at the time he was writing (and
> that he specifically wrote about), driven by concerns based on similar
> observations.
>
> It strikes me that this is an available point of view for almost any
> person.  Granted, the distribution of rewards and frustrations differs from
> person to person and also from region to region, and that matters.  But the
> black box (black hole?) of how minds form characters and orientations in
> response to streams of these things draws from an immense and to me-obscure
> range of inputs.
>
> Makes me wonder,
>
> Eric
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>



-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefk...@gmail.com <merlelef...@gmail.com>
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme




Well, just because all rule sets are faulty doesn't mean some rule sets aren't 
better than others.  (Need I repeat it?  Surely not.  ... All models ... yadda 
yadda.)  And so your intuition is right, all rule sets are faulty, including 
the rule set of all rule sets.  The lesson isn't to throw away rule sets or 
adopt the One Rule Set to Rule Them All and fuzzify it.  The lesson is that 
something other than rules is needed to complement rule sets.  And we already 
have that in our US justice system.

The rule of law is fantastic, but it has to be tempered with 
context-satisficing things like democracy and trial by jury, institutionalized, 
bureaucratic methodology for periodically falsifying the rules against the 
highly contingent reality.

Your "like to imagine that we can transcend all rules" is just more 
rule-following.  There is no Ultimate Reality.  There is no destination.  There is only 
journey.  But some journeys are more clearly self-defeating than others.
Got it!  (he says as he grinds dumbly and trudgingly around in a circle 
tracking his own footprints, not realizing that he's slowly turning to 
butter)




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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

2017-08-16 Thread gⅼеɳ

Well, just because all rule sets are faulty doesn't mean some rule sets aren't 
better than others.  (Need I repeat it?  Surely not.  ... All models ... yadda 
yadda.)  And so your intuition is right, all rule sets are faulty, including 
the rule set of all rule sets.  The lesson isn't to throw away rule sets or 
adopt the One Rule Set to Rule Them All and fuzzify it.  The lesson is that 
something other than rules is needed to complement rule sets.  And we already 
have that in our US justice system.

The rule of law is fantastic, but it has to be tempered with 
context-satisficing things like democracy and trial by jury, institutionalized, 
bureaucratic methodology for periodically falsifying the rules against the 
highly contingent reality.

Your "like to imagine that we can transcend all rules" is just more 
rule-following.  There is no Ultimate Reality.  There is no destination.  There 
is only journey.  But some journeys are more clearly self-defeating than others.

On 08/16/2017 12:58 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> I am inclined to agree with you, but am left somewhat empty-handed with:
> 
>"because ALL rule sets are faulty!  Damnit."
> 
> my instincts are with you on this, yet in some kind of Godelian (not Gordian) 
> knot I find myself:
> 
>A) questioning the "rule" you just stated.
> 
> and
> 
>B) finding myself conjuring (fuzzy?) rules to replace the crisp ones
>I resent/resist!
> 
> Are Heuristics or Patterns also rules?   Can we suppress any desire/need to 
> have formal rules and not just discover (or never notice) that we have an 
> implicit rule set embedded in our intuition from our genetic and cultural 
> origins, informed at best by personal experiences?
> 
> I'd like to imagine that we *can* transcend all rules (explicit/implicit, 
> crisp/fuzzy, etc.) but am not quite sure what that would mean or why?

-- 
gⅼеɳ

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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Glen -

I am inclined to agree with you, but am left somewhat empty-handed with:

"because ALL rule sets are faulty! Damnit."

my instincts are with you on this, yet in some kind of Godelian (not
Gordian) knot I find myself:

A) questioning the "rule" you just stated.

and

B) finding myself conjuring (fuzzy?) rules to replace the crisp ones
I resent/resist!

Are Heuristics or Patterns also rules? Can we suppress any desire/need
to have formal rules and not just discover (or never notice) that we
have an implicit rule set embedded in our intuition from our genetic and
cultural origins, informed at best by personal experiences?

I'd like to imagine that we *can* transcend all rules
(explicit/implicit, crisp/fuzzy, etc.) but am not quite sure what that
would mean or why?

- Steve

On 8/16/17 11:46 AM, gⅼеɳ wrote:

Nietzsche's complaining/rejoicing re: the loss of the Christian rule set isn't all that relevant, I
don't think. Those Trumpians complaining about "political correctness" aren't
complaining about the lack of a rule set, because there exists a new rule set. E.g. don't chant
"Jews will not replace us" and expect to get away with it. Similarly, we can't really
apply Nietzsche's observation that deontology is faulty to authoritarians anywhere.

No, the desperation and rage Marcus points to is about a perceived change to the rules,
from one broken rule set to another (equally broken) rule set. That's what makes it
tricky for those of us who don't base our ethics on rules. When a Trumpian points out
flaws in the lefty's rule set, we consequentialists have to agree with them... yeah,
their rule set is faulty. They hear that part. But then the Trumpian fails to hear the
qualifier: "Because ALL rule sets are faulty! Damnit."

On 08/16/2017 08:10 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Yeah, it is probably nothing new that is happening nor a new interpretation.
Institutions of various kinds can give individuals a role to play and
guidelines for conduct, but a highly interconnected population with a complex
economy will stress these institutions and reveal their limitations.
Meanwhile, only exceptional and delusional individuals can really make a
convincing case (esp. to themselves) about their unique value either coupled-to
or uncoupled-from from institutions. However, I fear the stakes are pretty
high now -- the contagion of people going bonkers could be fast with social
media. A healthy society is one where individuals can mature to the point
they can begin to doubt the meaning in their own anxiety (whether by
themselves, with their shrink or their spiritual authority) and make it to the
next day.

Marcus

--
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:56:23 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme

Reading this, I feel like you could found a new generation of something that is
like existentialist philosophy but equally-well political theory.

It is not so far from Nietzche’s notion that “God is dead” creates a problem
for people, and they will face a fork in the road in how they try to deal with
it. Maybe even, considering the currents running through European and
particularly German society at the time he was writing (and that he
specifically wrote about), driven by concerns based on similar observations.

It strikes me that this is an available point of view for almost any person.
Granted, the distribution of rewards and frustrations differs from person to
person and also from region to region, and that matters. But the black box
(black hole?) of how minds form characters and orientations in response to
streams of these things draws from an immense and to me-obscure range of inputs.

Makes me wonder,

Eric

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Re: [FRIAM] the Skeptical Meme