Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Anne, It's been over a month since we heard from you on WASP-Lite(Java). Can you please let us know about your latest position on the proposal? http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10056072667r=1w=2 Thanks, dims = Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Dims, We moved the discussion to axis-dev. There's a fair amount of work that we'd need to do to clean up our code before we submit it to Apache, so before we do this work we want to ensure that our code will be useful to you. We talked about the possibilities of merging Axis and WASP, but considering the differences in architecture, merger appears to be very challenging. We've just released a new version of our C++ implementation, which we've also offered to submit to Apache. Both implementations are based on the same architecture. Our C++ implementation is already open source, so we've requested that the Axis team look at this code before we proceed further. We haven't heard much discussion since then. Regards, Anne -Original Message- From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Anne Thomas Manes Subject: Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache? Anne, It's been over a month since we heard from you on WASP-Lite(Java). Can you please let us know about your latest position on the proposal? http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10056072667r=1w=2 Thanks, dims = Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Anne Thomas Manes wrote: Excellent idea. We'd have to come up with a new name for the current Axis project so as not to give it preferential name recognition. I don't get it: what's preferential in using a name that is already recognized and already has a community around? I also like the idea of getting some ebXML projects going. well, not for the sake of political balance only: they still *must* adhere to our community standards before entering, even if, code donation to an existing subproject require much less strict community standards since the subproject community will take care of merging/workin-on the code. The WASP framework is designed to be XML Protocol independent, so it could be used to implement an ebXML Message Service implementation. I'll see if I can recruit a community for such a project. cool Perhaps we'd like to revisit Peter Kacandes's poll to submit ebXML reg/rep (which is now at SourceForge)? Up to the Axis community at this point, but I'd suggest doing one code merging at a time. Shall we move this discussion to the axis-dev list? When everybody agrees on this, yes. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Anne Thomas Manes writes: We're talking about creating a new umbrella project focusing on Web services that initially will host three different SOAP projects: soap, axis, and I'm a -1 on hosting three different SOAP projects. What I'm for is hosting Apache SOAP as the old SOAP project and Apache Axis as the new project. WASP should be committed within Axis to be taken as input to create Axis 2.0 by merging the best of Axis 1.x and WASP 1.x. Thus, there is only one SOAP project, which transitioned from Apache SOAP to Apache Axis. We have the community around Apache Axis already and that's where we need to move forward. wasp. From earlier comments on this thread, I infer that there's a push to get the axis community to gather around Web services, not just around the axis code base. If the umbrella project name is axis, then the sub-project I don't think we're all the way there yet- the idea is that long term there should be a Web servies project. The immediate proposal (I believe) was to bring Apache SOAP and Apache Axis together under one project and for WASP to be incorporated within Axis. The host of such a combined project IMO should be something named other than Axis. Perhaps we'd like to revisit Peter Kacandes's poll to submit ebXML reg/rep (which is now at SourceForge)? Up to the Axis community at this point, but I'd suggest doing one code merging at a time. Good point, although ebXML reg/rep wouldn't involve code merging -- its a registry/repository, not a SOAP implementation. It would be a separate code base. In my *technical opinion* ebXML reg/rep is not yet a best fit with Web services. It may get there, but its not there yet. From that point of view if there were a Web services PMC and if I were on it, I would be opposed to hosting such a project *at this time*. I may be totally off-base, but there should be some technical rationale too for grouping projects together right? If the only concern is the community aspect then this is not an issue. If we allow the new umbrella project to willy nilly add sub-projects then all we've done is created a loop-hole to create a political mess. I suggest that while we should create the umbrella, we continue to have discussions on this list before creating any new sub-projects. So if the [EMAIL PROTECTED] community feels ok about putting an ebXML reg/rep project in the new umbrella project then its ok with me, even though technically I personally feel its not the right thing to do today. Sanjiva. - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Sam Ruby wrote: Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: But don't tell me that SOAP/Axis is like Cocoon1/Cocoon2 because you'd be ignoring the fact that there is one big and very focused community, not two. Ok, I won't say it...even though in both cases there is one set of committers. In both cases there are two entries on xml.apache.org. In both cases, there are two separate cvs trees. C'mon, different names and different mail lists are perceived as different projects to open source people. But if you say it's not the case, then, let's fix this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Hi Stefano, 2) Apache SOAP and Apache Axis are dealing with this and Axis is very likely to be the community of choice (I never liked the name Apache SOAP myself so I'm happy to hear this) Just to be clear- Axis is a new implementation of SOAP. At one point it was called Apache SOAP v3 but the name was changed when there it appeared likely that the W3C would change the name of the protocol. Apache SOAP is destined to become the old version and Axis to be the new and on-going version. Sam indicated that Axis is more or less Apache SOAP 2, well, then you guys broke the revolutionary rules by giving subproject status to an internal fork. I'm a core developer of Apache SOAP. When the V3 discussions were going on the active V3 folks wanted to establish a seperate project mostly for distinct community identity purposes IMO. I was (and am) fully supportive of Axis and didn't push for an internal fork at that time because it appeared that the community would foster better with a clean slate. Given the value of community over mechanics, IMO it was the right decision to make it into a separate project. The name, as I said above, was deliberately chosen to not have the word (?) SOAP in it. Axis actually stands for something (pretty nebulous, as I recall), but I forget what right now. I'd love to see this mess fixed and my proposed plan is: 1) the Apache subproject that takes care of web services becomes Apache Axis (which is a cool name, BTW). 2) Apache SOAP gets moved into Axis [or left there if everyone agrees on letting it die out] 3) WASP Lite is submitted to the Axis community which will then decide what to do with that. Either refactor the code, or ship it as it is [but with a new codename!] or making it the Axis 2.0 branch of the CVS. Up to them. Apache SOAP and Apache Axis are SOAP engine implementations. While SOAP plays an important role in Web servies, it is by no means the only key technology. WSDL for example actually has a conceptually bigger role in Web services (and will continue to have a wider role). What we need is a meta project above the SOAP engine level proejcts. My proposal would be to create an Apache Web Services Project and host under that: - Apache SOAP (destined to rest in peace once Axis kicks into high gear) - Apache Axis - [Any other projects that get started under this project] As for WASP, I personally feel it'll be better placed as an separate dir in the Axis tree and then used to merge into Axis. I personally don't think its a good idea for one to be able to download 3 separate SOAP implementations from Apache. Apache SOAP and Axis have a well- defined (and well-known, I believe) relationship: one is a replacement for the other. WASP comes in at a bit of a messy time for Axis- but after Axis goes to 1.0 the best of Axis and the best of WASP should be combined to make Axis 2.0. Right now, IMO the best thing to do is to commit WASP into Axis, get the two developer communities merged and then move forward. While it is true that two of the main WASPers are Axisers, they haven't been active for a while (AFAIK); so getting the two teams to become aware of each others' codebases is critical and will take some time. Sanjiva. - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: Sam indicated that Axis is more or less Apache SOAP 2, well, then you guys broke the revolutionary rules by giving subproject status to an internal fork. I'm a core developer of Apache SOAP. When the V3 discussions were going on the active V3 folks wanted to establish a seperate project mostly for distinct community identity purposes IMO. I was (and am) fully supportive of Axis and didn't push for an internal fork at that time because it appeared that the community would foster better with a clean slate. Given the value of community over mechanics, IMO it was the right decision to make it into a separate project. If I had thought it was for a distinct community identiy I would have voted against it. I have worked rather hard to make this one community. If you think of them as separate communities, then clearly I have not been as successful as I would have liked. - Sam Ruby - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Theodore W. Leung wrote: On Thu, 2001-11-15 at 09:13, Anne Thomas Manes wrote: More background: As Sam said earlier, two Systinet (formerly Idoox) developers are committers on the Apache SOAP projects. The reason we elected to go off and develop a separate code base was purely for timing reasons. We wanted to release production-ready products as quickly as possible. We didn't think that Apache SOAP would serve our purposes, and we didn't think we could wait for Axis. So we designed our own. We released our SOAP stack in September, and we're building additional products based on that implementation. But we're not tied to our own SOAP stack. We designed the WASP product line to be SOAP stack-agnostic. We are prepared to rip our SOAP stack out and replace it with another SOAP stack if/when appropriate. We think it's pointless to fight over a SOAP stack. The SOAP stack should be a part of the underlying fabric. What's important is that there is one, and the one that's there is reliable, performant, feature-rich, flexible, and extensible. Our primary goal is to get a really strong, pervasive SOAP stack that fully supports JAXM, JAX/RPC, a complete implementation of SOAP Section 5, support for SOAP 1.1 and SOAP 1.2, pluggable transport protocols, etc. Good. That's very sensible. I think it's a good idea that we formalize a plan to integrate the code bases. Ok, so let's see what we have on the table here: 1) a bunch of people interested in web services (this is a fact and must not ignore this) 2) Apache SOAP and Apache Axis are dealing with this and Axis is very likely to be the community of choice (I never liked the name Apache SOAP myself so I'm happy to hear this) 3) This proposed donation is believed to bring new ideas and new functionality on the table. So, from where I stand: it makes sense to refactor these subprojects under Apache and get Axis back to where it belong: the internal forking stage. Sam indicated that Axis is more or less Apache SOAP 2, well, then you guys broke the revolutionary rules by giving subproject status to an internal fork. I'd love to see this mess fixed and my proposed plan is: 1) the Apache subproject that takes care of web services becomes Apache Axis (which is a cool name, BTW). 2) Apache SOAP gets moved into Axis [or left there if everyone agrees on letting it die out] 3) WASP Lite is submitted to the Axis community which will then decide what to do with that. Either refactor the code, or ship it as it is [but with a new codename!] or making it the Axis 2.0 branch of the CVS. Up to them. In short, I really don't see the need for three projects competing on the same stuff with different mail lists. If they end up having different CVS modules, that's a matter of CVS branches limitations. But don't tell me that SOAP/Axis is like Cocoon1/Cocoon2 because you'd be ignoring the fact that there is one big and very focused community, not two. And just as Catalina wasn't granted with its own subproject status before turning into Tomcat 4.0, I clearly don't see why this was allowed to happen with Axis, but it's the way it is and we must just consider doing something that doesn't create any more community fragmentation in the future. Hope this helps in explaining my vision on this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Sorry for cluttering up your mailbox -- I'm not sure why this was sent around again. As you can see, it was sent it on Monday. We plan to proceed by submitting the code to the Axis project. Best regards, Anne -Original Message- From: Anne Thomas Manes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:40 PM To: General@Xml. Apache. Org Subject: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache? Background: WASP Lite for Java is a Web services framework developed by Systinet that supports SOAP 1.1, WSDL 1.1, and XML Schema 1999/2000/2001. Details, including binaries and documentation, can be found at http://www.systinet.com/products/wasp_lite/index.html. The product is currently distributed under a free commercial binary license. It has a large user base, many of whom have requested that we make the source available. A number of companies and individuals have expressed interest in contributing to the development of this code. The code has been developed using a modular approach, which should make it relatively easy for others to get comfortable with the code, and which should allow easy sharing of code with the SOAP and Axis projects. We would like to submit this proposal to the members of the Apache XML project for consideration of accepting this donation as a sub-project. Thank you very much for your attention to and consideration for this proposal. We look foward to your questions, comments, or concerns. Anne Thomas Manes CTO, Systinet (formerly Idoox) www.systinet.com - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
On Thu, 2001-11-15 at 09:13, Anne Thomas Manes wrote: More background: As Sam said earlier, two Systinet (formerly Idoox) developers are committers on the Apache SOAP projects. The reason we elected to go off and develop a separate code base was purely for timing reasons. We wanted to release production-ready products as quickly as possible. We didn't think that Apache SOAP would serve our purposes, and we didn't think we could wait for Axis. So we designed our own. We released our SOAP stack in September, and we're building additional products based on that implementation. But we're not tied to our own SOAP stack. We designed the WASP product line to be SOAP stack-agnostic. We are prepared to rip our SOAP stack out and replace it with another SOAP stack if/when appropriate. We think it's pointless to fight over a SOAP stack. The SOAP stack should be a part of the underlying fabric. What's important is that there is one, and the one that's there is reliable, performant, feature-rich, flexible, and extensible. Our primary goal is to get a really strong, pervasive SOAP stack that fully supports JAXM, JAX/RPC, a complete implementation of SOAP Section 5, support for SOAP 1.1 and SOAP 1.2, pluggable transport protocols, etc. Good. That's very sensible. I think it's a good idea that we formalize a plan to integrate the code bases. Anne -Original Message- From: Theodore W. Leung [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache? On Wed, 2001-11-14 at 14:14, Sam Ruby wrote: Theodore W. Leung wrote: I am *very* against the idea of WASP as a separate project. If the Axis and Wasp communities can not agree, then I think we're done. What if the Axis and Wasp communities agree that separate code bases are the right initial step? I was stating my opinion -- if the Axis and Wasp communities decide that separate code bases is the right thing, then of course I respect that -- I would suggest in that case that there be some visible plan for how those code bases integrate. I think that the WASP code and community can contribute in a number of areas. The way that we got into the Crimson / Xerces mess was that we said, we'll accept both projects and figure out how to merge them later. It took a long time for that to start to happen -- not that it's fully happened just yet. Let's not extrapolate too much from one data point. I would suggest that there were other factors involved too. Yes there were. And some of them apply here too. Namely Sysinet and IBM both having investment in existing code bases. The way that Batik happend If I understand correctly, Batik was x number of companies getting their code integrated outside of the scope of Apache, and then contributing the result? correct. Given that Axis is already an Apache code base, how should we proceed? I'd be very happy to see a JAX RPC and JAXM compliant SOAP stack on Apache. If the Wasp stack turned out to be closer, would the Axis community be willing to orphan the Axis code base and do the work to bring the Wasp stack up to spec? If the Axis stack turns out to be closer, are the Wasp folks willing to drop the Wasp stack and adapt the rest of Wasp to Axis? I can live with two code bases for a defined period of time. What I would not like to live with is an uncertain direction and/or unbounded timeframe for those two code bases. I think that in the end there needs to be a single SOAP code base, and that part of the process for the contribution should be a reasonable plan for how to get there. Ted - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Anne Thomas Manes wrote: Stefano, I'm pleased that you think it's a good thing. To clarify: I was commenting Sam's note on I am looking forward to increased synergy and participation. Increased synergy is what I believe it's a good thing. Whether or not making WASP Lite an apache subproject, *this* is yet to be clarified to my eyes. Just to make sure that everybody understands this distinction: synergy *automatically* generates better communities. Competing projects, normally, do not. So to be crystal clear: synergy - good thing competing subprojects - not so sure We first thought of submitting WASP Lite to Axis, but after consideration determined that this approach would be too disruptive and technically challenging. Who considered that? you or the axis community? WASP Lite is a complete code base, and it would be very difficult to attempt to merge this code base with the Axis code base. Oh, believe me, you'd be surprised on how creative people can become if they are really interested in something. Any merger attempt would significantly delay both projects. We don't want to disrupt the Axis project. We share the same concerns though. Let us understand whether or not the move you propose goes in this direction or not. At the same time we think that the open source community will definitely benefit from WASP Lite. Oh, I don't question that. If Sam says so, I trust his technical judgement. But you didn't state We think that a separate project is the better way to go. I thank you very much for your suggestion and will be taken into very high consideration, but please keep in mind that it's up to the apache communities to decide what to do with donated code. If you decide to donate it in order to communities to benefit, it should not be your concern where the code ends up living, but should be the community's itself. Over time Axis and WASP Lite are likely to share code. Perhaps the projects might eventually converge. This wouldn't be the first time we've had competing projects at Apache (Crimson/Xerces/Xerces2 comes to mind). Exactly. We got burned big time by the politics involved in this very example and we DO NOT want this to happen again since we wouldn't have the energy to do this over again. It is exactly because of this example that I'm seriously concerned about having competing subprojects. Note: we have rules that allow committers of one project to propose an internal fork of the subproject itself, then is the community to decide what to do, but this doesn't separate them. If some of your guys are already committers of Axis and you think your solution is better from a technical perspective, then why don't you propose an internal fork with a new codename and work from there? I think it just goes to show that the community is very interested in the technology. Sorry, I can't follow you. I asked explicitly for overlap analysis in order to understand why you propose a different subproject but I didn't get that answer. Now, if you care about the interest of the community is should not matter where the code ends up living or what name it will end up having. Right? If you are so concerned about the name and the location, it only goes to show me that you are more interested in its location and its visibility than to the community interests. But I sincerely hope you can prove me wrong. So, let's get to the point: I'm personally against having two competing subprojects for no technical reason, no matter what they do. Technical competition should happen inside an existing community, following the Rules for revolutionaries. So, either somebody explains those technical reasons in detail (and convices me of the value of having two competing communities), or my vote remains a +1 on the acceptance of the code donation, but as a -1 on the creation of a new subproject. DISCLAIMER: having resigned from PMC last year, this vote is not pending but just a crystal clear way of expressing my very personal opinion as part of this community. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Anne, My viewpoint is similar to Stefano's. I like the idea of working with your team and get the code into Apache. But i am not sure if we need one more SOAP implementation. A lot of people are already confused what to use and when. This will split up effort of the developers/users and increase friction/confusion. Here's my +1 on accepting the code donation. But i want the Axis developers and people on the general list to have a say in where it is going to live. Personally, i would want the code to be merged with Axis and not start as a new sub-project. Sam, Did you have any thoughts on where the code should live and how we should go about accepting this offer? Thanks, dims --- Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne Thomas Manes wrote: WASP Lite for Java is a Web services framework developed by Systinet that supports SOAP 1.1, WSDL 1.1, and XML Schema 1999/2000/2001. Details, including binaries and documentation, can be found at http://www.systinet.com/products/wasp_lite/index.html. The product is currently distributed under a free commercial binary license. It has a large user base, many of whom have requested that we make the source available. A number of companies and individuals have expressed interest in contributing to the development of this code. The code has been developed using a modular approach, which should make it relatively easy for others to get comfortable with the code, and which should allow easy sharing of code with the SOAP and Axis projects. We would like to submit this proposal to the members of the Apache XML project for consideration of accepting this donation as a sub-project. Thank you very much for your attention to and consideration for this proposal. We look foward to your questions, comments, or concerns. +1 Two of the developers are already committers on Axis. I am looking forward to increased synergy and participation. - Sam Ruby - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Anne, My viewpoint is similar to Stefano's. I like the idea of working with your team and get the code into Apache. But i am not sure if we need one more SOAP implementation. A lot of people are already confused what to use and when. This will split up effort of the developers/users and increase friction/confusion. Here's my +1 on accepting the code donation. But i want the Axis developers and people on the general list to have a say in where it is going to live. Personally, i would want the code to be merged with Axis and not start as a new sub-project. Sam, Did you have any thoughts on where the code should live and how we should go about accepting this offer? Thanks, dims --- Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne Thomas Manes wrote: WASP Lite for Java is a Web services framework developed by Systinet that supports SOAP 1.1, WSDL 1.1, and XML Schema 1999/2000/2001. Details, including binaries and documentation, can be found at http://www.systinet.com/products/wasp_lite/index.html. The product is currently distributed under a free commercial binary license. It has a large user base, many of whom have requested that we make the source available. A number of companies and individuals have expressed interest in contributing to the development of this code. The code has been developed using a modular approach, which should make it relatively easy for others to get comfortable with the code, and which should allow easy sharing of code with the SOAP and Axis projects. We would like to submit this proposal to the members of the Apache XML project for consideration of accepting this donation as a sub-project. Thank you very much for your attention to and consideration for this proposal. We look foward to your questions, comments, or concerns. +1 Two of the developers are already committers on Axis. I am looking forward to increased synergy and participation. - Sam Ruby - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Davanum Srinivas - http://jguru.com/dims/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
General thoughts: This is just a poll at this point. A perfectly reasonable response might be for the PMC to request that consensus be reached first on the Axis dev mailing list before proceeding to a vote. Three of the five PMC members actively follow that list anyway... I'm not clear on what the difference between internal fork and external fork. Two committers (and an undisclosed at this point, but presumably small number of other developers) decided to go their own way for a period of time, and now want to share their results with the community. Status of other forks: Currently Xerces 1 and 2 are in separate cvs trees and have separate entries on xml.apache.org's web site; as does Crimson. Committers to any one code base have karma to all. Xalan1 and Xalan2 were in the same cvs tree, but had separate entries on xml.apache.org's web site for a time. Now Xalan1 is no more. Currently Cocoon1 and 2 are in separate cvs trees (originally they were in one), and have separate entries on xml.apache.org's web site. Committers to the either code base have karma to both. Currently Soap and Axis are in separate cvs trees and have separate entries on xml.apache.org's web site. In creating Axis, I did take the opportunity to cull the list of inactive committers - with the statement that any could become active simply by a simple request. My personal priorities (in no particular order): Reuniting the community. Not disrupting the progress of Axis to release while this donation is in process. Stealing heavily from both code bases to create the best product in the marketplace Note: I had the opportunity to meet Anne Thomas Manes for the first time last week at the O'Reilly P2P and WebServices conference, as did Dirk. We discussed the priorities I listed above, and I recommended that this proceed by her posting to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list to gather input. I knew her name as she often posted to both the soap and axis mailing lists, generally by answering people's questions about SOAP and related technologies. - Sam Ruby - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
On Wed, 2001-11-14 at 05:38, Sam Ruby wrote: General thoughts: This is just a poll at this point. A perfectly reasonable response might be for the PMC to request that consensus be reached first on the Axis dev mailing list before proceeding to a vote. Three of the five PMC members actively follow that list anyway... +1 I am *very* against the idea of WASP as a separate project. If the Axis and Wasp communities can not agree, then I think we're done. We already have 2 SOAP implementations with 2 different API's. We don't need 3. At least X1, X2, and Crimson are JAXP interchangable. Right now, the SOAP situation is a mess. I'm not clear on what the difference between internal fork and external fork. Two committers (and an undisclosed at this point, but presumably small number of other developers) decided to go their own way for a period of time, and now want to share their results with the community. Status of other forks: Currently Xerces 1 and 2 are in separate cvs trees and have separate entries on xml.apache.org's web site; as does Crimson. Committers to any one code base have karma to all. The important thing here is that the plan is for Xerces 1 and Crimson to converge at Xerces2. This hasn't happened yet, but is in process. At that point I expect both Xerces1 and Crimson to go to the old project's home (wherever that is). Xalan1 and Xalan2 were in the same cvs tree, but had separate entries on xml.apache.org's web site for a time. Now Xalan1 is no more. Currently Cocoon1 and 2 are in separate cvs trees (originally they were in one), and have separate entries on xml.apache.org's web site. Committers to the either code base have karma to both. The cocoon guys have been saying that C2 will supersede C1. Currently Soap and Axis are in separate cvs trees and have separate entries on xml.apache.org's web site. In creating Axis, I did take the opportunity to cull the list of inactive committers - with the statement that any could become active simply by a simple request. After Axis goes 1.0, my personal expectation is that SOAP is starting to go to the old projects home. My personal priorities (in no particular order): Reuniting the community. Not disrupting the progress of Axis to release while this donation is in process. Stealing heavily from both code bases to create the best product in the marketplace I think that the WASP code and community can contribute in a number of areas. The way that we got into the Crimson / Xerces mess was that we said, we'll accept both projects and figure out how to merge them later. It took a long time for that to start to happen -- not that it's fully happened just yet. The way that Batik happend, as well as the way that the XSLTC - Xalan donation happened are better models in my mind. Ted Note: I had the opportunity to meet Anne Thomas Manes for the first time last week at the O'Reilly P2P and WebServices conference, as did Dirk. We discussed the priorities I listed above, and I recommended that this proceed by her posting to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list to gather input. I knew her name as she often posted to both the soap and axis mailing lists, generally by answering people's questions about SOAP and related technologies. - Sam Ruby - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Stefano, Sorry that I have't responded to the discussion -- I've been on a plane all day. Before initiating this poll, I discussed it with Sam. I first suggested submitting WASP to Axis. Sam suggested that we set it up as a separate project. But we're happy to abide by the community's decision. As Sam said, Axis supports JAX/RPC. WASP supports JAXM. WASP also supports pluggable transports, pluggable XML protocols, pluggable header processing, pluggable encoding, and pluggable serializers. I saw a recent note from James Snell saying that he was making a fairly significant architecture change to Axis to support pluggable transports. I think there will be lots of opportunity to steal/merge code across the two code bases. I just don't want there to be a huge disruption in Axis to make it happen. Regards, Anne -Original Message- From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache? Anne Thomas Manes wrote: Stefano, I'm pleased that you think it's a good thing. To clarify: I was commenting Sam's note on I am looking forward to increased synergy and participation. Increased synergy is what I believe it's a good thing. Whether or not making WASP Lite an apache subproject, *this* is yet to be clarified to my eyes. Just to make sure that everybody understands this distinction: synergy *automatically* generates better communities. Competing projects, normally, do not. So to be crystal clear: synergy - good thing competing subprojects - not so sure We first thought of submitting WASP Lite to Axis, but after consideration determined that this approach would be too disruptive and technically challenging. Who considered that? you or the axis community? WASP Lite is a complete code base, and it would be very difficult to attempt to merge this code base with the Axis code base. Oh, believe me, you'd be surprised on how creative people can become if they are really interested in something. Any merger attempt would significantly delay both projects. We don't want to disrupt the Axis project. We share the same concerns though. Let us understand whether or not the move you propose goes in this direction or not. At the same time we think that the open source community will definitely benefit from WASP Lite. Oh, I don't question that. If Sam says so, I trust his technical judgement. But you didn't state We think that a separate project is the better way to go. I thank you very much for your suggestion and will be taken into very high consideration, but please keep in mind that it's up to the apache communities to decide what to do with donated code. If you decide to donate it in order to communities to benefit, it should not be your concern where the code ends up living, but should be the community's itself. Over time Axis and WASP Lite are likely to share code. Perhaps the projects might eventually converge. This wouldn't be the first time we've had competing projects at Apache (Crimson/Xerces/Xerces2 comes to mind). Exactly. We got burned big time by the politics involved in this very example and we DO NOT want this to happen again since we wouldn't have the energy to do this over again. It is exactly because of this example that I'm seriously concerned about having competing subprojects. Note: we have rules that allow committers of one project to propose an internal fork of the subproject itself, then is the community to decide what to do, but this doesn't separate them. If some of your guys are already committers of Axis and you think your solution is better from a technical perspective, then why don't you propose an internal fork with a new codename and work from there? I think it just goes to show that the community is very interested in the technology. Sorry, I can't follow you. I asked explicitly for overlap analysis in order to understand why you propose a different subproject but I didn't get that answer. Now, if you care about the interest of the community is should not matter where the code ends up living or what name it will end up having. Right? If you are so concerned about the name and the location, it only goes to show me that you are more interested in its location and its visibility than to the community interests. But I sincerely hope you can prove me wrong. So, let's get to the point: I'm personally against having two competing subprojects for no technical reason, no matter what they do. Technical competition should happen inside an existing community, following the Rules for revolutionaries. So, either somebody explains those technical reasons in detail (and convices me of the value of having two competing communities), or my vote remains a +1 on the acceptance of the code donation, but as a -1 on the creation of a new subproject. DISCLAIMER: having
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Sam Ruby wrote: Anne Thomas Manes wrote: WASP Lite for Java is a Web services framework developed by Systinet that supports SOAP 1.1, WSDL 1.1, and XML Schema 1999/2000/2001. Details, including binaries and documentation, can be found at http://www.systinet.com/products/wasp_lite/index.html. The product is currently distributed under a free commercial binary license. It has a large user base, many of whom have requested that we make the source available. A number of companies and individuals have expressed interest in contributing to the development of this code. The code has been developed using a modular approach, which should make it relatively easy for others to get comfortable with the code, and which should allow easy sharing of code with the SOAP and Axis projects. We would like to submit this proposal to the members of the Apache XML project for consideration of accepting this donation as a sub-project. Thank you very much for your attention to and consideration for this proposal. We look foward to your questions, comments, or concerns. +1 Two of the developers are already committers on Axis. I am looking forward to increased synergy and participation. This is indeed a good thing. Now, a technical question: we already have two projects which have a pretty high overlap (SOAP and Axis). Why do we need another one? Can't this WASP lite be donated as directly to Axis instead of creating yet another project on webservices? I admit my total ignorance on the problems and this is why I'm asking without stating a vote, but it looks to me that we don't need more subprojects for web services and if this was the case, I would like to treat them as internal competing branches, rather than external subprojects. So, please, enlighten me. Thanks. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Stefano, I'm pleased that you think it's a good thing. We first thought of submitting WASP Lite to Axis, but after consideration determined that this approach would be too disruptive and technically challenging. WASP Lite is a complete code base, and it would be very difficult to attempt to merge this code base with the Axis code base. Any merger attempt would significantly delay both projects. We don't want to disrupt the Axis project. At the same time we think that the open source community will definitely benefit from WASP Lite. We think that a separate project is the better way to go. Over time Axis and WASP Lite are likely to share code. Perhaps the projects might eventually converge. This wouldn't be the first time we've had competing projects at Apache (Crimson/Xerces/Xerces2 comes to mind). I think it just goes to show that the community is very interested in the technology. Regards, Anne -Original Message- From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 3:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache? snip This is indeed a good thing. Now, a technical question: we already have two projects which have a pretty high overlap (SOAP and Axis). Why do we need another one? Can't this WASP lite be donated as directly to Axis instead of creating yet another project on webservices? I admit my total ignorance on the problems and this is why I'm asking without stating a vote, but it looks to me that we don't need more subprojects for web services and if this was the case, I would like to treat them as internal competing branches, rather than external subprojects. So, please, enlighten me. Thanks. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] WASP Lite on Apache?
Anne Thomas Manes wrote: It has a large user base, many of whom have requested that we make the source available. A number of companies and individuals have expressed interest in contributing to the development of this code. Foreseeing what will be asked fist from previous inquiries: How active is the development community for this project? Will your current developers still work on the software when you'll donate it to the Apache Software Foundation? A healthy development community is *very* important for any Apache subproject. Best regards, Martin Stricker -- Homepage: http://www.martin-stricker.de/ Registered Linux user #210635: http://counter.li.org/ - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
