Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
* Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been using Gentoo for about 4 or 5 years now. I to think Gentoo has well, lost its way. It seems like a bunch of teenagers is running it sometimes. They decide something then go back a few steps when they don't like the results. ACK. I also have this bad feeling :( Even w/o looking deeper into the system, just as an normal user's view, it became worse in recent years. Lots of conflicts, breaks, feature deps/conflicts, etc. The amount of necessary hand-work and the need to overlay really increased at my site in recent years. Part of the problmem might be too many quick+dirty hacks, another part's the philosophy of taking evrything as it comes from the upstream. It's not trivial to get out of this ;-o One little step out could be the OSS-QM project (http://oss-qm.metux.de/) It collects fixes for a lot packages and makes them accessible in 100% automated ways. So in a way it can be seen as an kind of overlay against the upstream. Most of the patches are things that upstream's tend to forget but importand for fully automated builds (eg. proper relocation, clean feature switching, fixing buildfiles, pkg-config, etc) - they do NOT harm the core functionality. So exactly what the vast majority of distro's patches do, but in generic (distro agnostic) ways. In recent years, I've announced this several times, but nobody really interested in it. Maybe now the right time had come ? ;-o Users seems to be the last thing on the higher ups mind. Yes, I also had such feelings when I was around @ -dev: It seemed I was disliked, since I was questioning some common dev practices and no being an official dev by myself, and I never would be allowed to become one, since I was disliked ;-O (So I left -dev and focused on my own overlay - not caring about the devs anymore). I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about. Actually, I don't think it's just some strong leader missing, but an lack of discusion culture between devs and plain users. I'd see the role of Gentoo leaders more in an diplomatic mission than actual decision making. cu -- - Enrico Weigelt== metux IT service - http://www.metux.de/ - Please visit the OpenSource QM Taskforce: http://wiki.metux.de/public/OpenSource_QM_Taskforce Patches / Fixes for a lot dozens of packages in dozens of versions: http://patches.metux.de/ - -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: On Sonntag, 13. Januar 2008, Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.07.57 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. That would be two a**holes in that discussion. If you read it you would know that may devs tried to correct drobbins but that he couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the chief anymore and that things have changed since he left. I'm not sure that the best guy to run Gentoo is a guy who wants to be THE chief and not one of the community. First D Robbins created Gentoo. Second what part of ex-dev don't you understand. If you are an ex-dev you shouldn't even be in the discussion period. that is one of the most stupid things I ever read on this list. So users should never be part of discussions? Their needs? Their opinions? Also, drobbins continued his attacks even after explained SEVERAL times that the stuff ciaranm was doing was a) wanted and b) helpfull and c) supervised by devs. But he couldn't shut up OR accept that things changed since he left. Somebody who can not deal with changes, is somebody certainly unfit for leadership. Yes, he started gentoo (my first gentoo was 1.0). And compared to the chaotic times, gentoo is a heaven of stability today. Back under drobbins leadership it was ok, that the tree was broken or some update screwed your system. Happened all the time - nobody complained (too loudly). And some day he left. Things changed. Gentoo is much more stable today. There is no breakage of the week. No large scale surprising 'nothing works anymore'. A lot of things were done - without him. And he comes back and thinks that he can do better? Please - he already has shown that he can't. He has shown that he will leave projects after a short while (stampede, freebsd, enoch, gentoo, Microsoft). He has never shown that he can pull through with a project. It is not stupid, just a difference of opinion. -- Edward A Mihalow Jr Mudbug Computers and Networks Gentoo! Linux Registered Linux User#225662 New Orleans,LA -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 17.31.20 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.33.28 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.07.57 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. That would be two a**holes in that discussion. If you read it you would know that may devs tried to correct drobbins but that he couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the chief anymore and that things have changed since he left. I'm not sure that the best guy to run Gentoo is a guy who wants to be THE chief and not one of the community. First D Robbins created Gentoo. Yeah so? He created Gentoo and then moved on. Thus leaving in the same sense or more since he didn't keep contributing, as the other dev did. Second what part of ex-dev don't you understand. Point being? If you are an ex-dev you shouldn't even be in the discussion period. As both of them where. Evidently you are new to Gentoo. D Robbins was broke after starting Gentoo and working on it day and night and trying to support a family he needed money. You can't live on nothing. Get it now? He was the dev that created Gentoo not just another dev. Back then yes. (and no I'm not new to Gentoo, been using it for years and been an official part of since about 3/4 of a year) Ciaran is a smart dev, but he was only a dev. He quit of his own volition due to the disagreement with other devs as to the direction of Portage. Fine, but don't come back on gentoo-dev and start a bunch of sh**. If you don't like the way things are done start your own distro! Don't come back and crap all over everyone's hard work. About Ciarans people skills I agree they are none to slim, but the points he makes are valid and since this is an open project he has every right to voice his opinion. I agree 100% with what you said. I hope that something good will come out of this. I also have been using Gentoo for a long time and would hate to see this just disintegrate to nothing. Gentoo is the best and flexible distro out there. -- Edward A Mihalow Jr Mudbug Computers and Networks Gentoo! Linux Registered Linux User#225662 New Orleans,LA -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
What looks strange -from an external point of view- is that there is lots of high-skilled people here... with huge Gentoo experience. How did these people not manage to build some plan ? With all the engineers, team leaders, project chiefs, and so on... involved in Gentoo project ? It looks like you have the abilities to analyse the situation, you are the ones who can tell we need that to go ahead, you know how to plan, you used to live in an open community -that implies that you have very good notions about smart productive attitudes in a not-lucrative environment- and you have the skills to implement and deploy the solutions. I don't know Daniel Robbins's previous work so I just have the right to shut up (and do it with respect). But when I read this thread, I understand that this man' plans should/will/must? be validated before by Trustees, but also by the whole committed community (devs mostly included) because they could not accept major changes without their agreement (risks of fork). So -from an external point of view, again- it comes to me that the devs and really involved people will estimate/evaluate the proposals... and it sounds good since they are the core of current Gentoo maintenance and development. But what about having work plans directly from devs ? I know that you are very busy... but I am sure that Gentoo future could benefit from experienced people, like Alan, as an example. Is it possible to get some public report, written by devs that have something to tell, explaining the current main issues, what Gentoo should do starting from now, and the plans for near future ? Maybe with several propositions Because what is sure is that non-devs face difficulties to get a clear view of Gentoo status... Gal' -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Saturday 12 January 2008, Richard Marzan wrote: Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this project. For reference, Daniel *did* work for Microsoft but left about 18 months or so ago. Per his web site he is now involved in a web-based financial trading concern. If he has since gone back to Microsoft unannounced then someone will correct me on that. -- Alan McKinnon alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Saturday 12 January 2008, fire-eyes wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: Ciaran Mcreesh - I am very specifically looking at you here. Very strongly agree with Mr McCreesh (spelling?). While I respect his technical abilities and contributions, I believe his horrible attitude, clear trolling and ability to pit devs against each other, seemingly for fun, is far more harmful. That he wasn't gotten rid of early on is actually the biggest sign of problems in my eyes. That he has fans and followers is another. Ciaran seems to suffer from a horrible affliction that is common amongst highly technical people: A poorly developed sense of how to deal with other people coupled with never having realised that people are not machines, do not react like machines and need to be handled differently. You maintain machines by focusing on what is wrong with them and changing that. You handle people by focusing on what they do right and reinforcing that. I used to do what Ciaran does, and I used to do it a *lot*. Lucky for me, one day someone came along with a very big stick and hammered it through my thick skull that there is a better way. -- Alan McKinnon alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Perhaps a user's perspective. A clueless user. Gentoo is the ass-kickinest distro I have tried. The docs are the best in the Linux communities. Where does that leave me and where does that leave Gentoo now? I am impelled to write after seeing numerous posts about the apparent demise of GWN, and now the usual divisive arguments about Daniel Robbins's recent innuendoes to the community of Gentoo. Once common thread in the former discussion is the we don't need not stinkin' install CD argument. I beg to differ, for whatever reason, but I won't discuss the reason(s) at the current time, except to state that the more recent (2007) installs went a LOT more smoothly than earlier ones, and my three machines have become so much of a headache to maintain that I am preparing to install again. Arguments against it aside. Unless I decide that Ubuntu is easier and better. (It IS easier. Is it better? No, but it's more painless for a clueless user, in some manners). That being said, one other thing begs to be discussed: Daniel Robbins is still interested in participating (albeit his demands---the extend, anyway, that I have read of them, tend to slightly put me off, but that's beside the point. I think it is necessary to take up this issue (surprized as I am that this would even BE an issue) in full light of the GWN and the install CD discussions. I want there to be a gentoo. I want there to be a well documented and not horribly painful way to install. I like the concept. Gentoo is still working well, but those soft spots that I mentioned are serious and troubling ones. When I first came into Gentoo, one thing I noticed was the kindness of Gentoo experts in the mailing list discussions. Debian experts often left clueless users in the lurch, with their readiness to say RTFM and lack of real support in many cases. Gentoo people have been kind, I have not been told to RTFM, although I was (thankfully) often told where to find more information on a subject. This off-putting political undercurrent of the Gentoo community has me worried. Is this the beginning of the RTFM choir? I hope not. Why would Daniel Robbins's opinions or suggestions not be of interest? Why do so many diss him so? I am looking for positive suggestions. Sorry for the waste of time, Alan Davis Teacher and GNU/Linux enabled independent scholar and scientist. On Jan 13, 2008 7:37 PM, Alan McKinnon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 12 January 2008, fire-eyes wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: Ciaran Mcreesh - I am very specifically looking at you here. Very strongly agree with Mr McCreesh (spelling?). While I respect his technical abilities and contributions, I believe his horrible attitude, clear trolling and ability to pit devs against each other, seemingly for fun, is far more harmful. That he wasn't gotten rid of early on is actually the biggest sign of problems in my eyes. That he has fans and followers is another. Ciaran seems to suffer from a horrible affliction that is common amongst highly technical people: A poorly developed sense of how to deal with other people coupled with never having realised that people are not machines, do not react like machines and need to be handled differently. You maintain machines by focusing on what is wrong with them and changing that. You handle people by focusing on what they do right and reinforcing that. I used to do what Ciaran does, and I used to do it a *lot*. Lucky for me, one day someone came along with a very big stick and hammered it through my thick skull that there is a better way. -- Alan McKinnon alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list -- Alan Davis, Kagman High School, Saipan [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's never a matter of liking or disliking ... ---Santa Ynez Chumash Medicine Man -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On 13 January 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote: A poorly developed sense of how to deal with other people coupled with never having realised that people are not machines, do not react like machines and need to be handled differently. You maintain machines by focusing on what is wrong with them and changing that. You handle people by focusing on what they do right and reinforcing that. I used to do what Ciaran does, and I used to do it a *lot*. Lucky for me, one day someone came along with a very big stick and hammered it through my thick skull that there is a better way. And thus focused on what you were doing wrong. grin Uwe -- If a man speaks in a forest, and no woman listens to him, is he still lying? -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sunday 13 January 2008, Uwe Thiem wrote: On 13 January 2008, Alan McKinnon wrote: A poorly developed sense of how to deal with other people coupled with never having realised that people are not machines, do not react like machines and need to be handled differently. You maintain machines by focusing on what is wrong with them and changing that. You handle people by focusing on what they do right and reinforcing that. I used to do what Ciaran does, and I used to do it a *lot*. Lucky for me, one day someone came along with a very big stick and hammered it through my thick skull that there is a better way. And thus focused on what you were doing wrong. grin hehehe, spoken like a true African - direct, blunt and to the point :-) The technique worked though! -- Alan McKinnon alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: On Samstag, 12. Januar 2008, Richard Marzan wrote: On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 18:22 +0100, Renat Golubchyk wrote: On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this project. He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for relevant news. Cheers, Renat Even more of a reason to bring him back! no, just another sign that he never pulls through. I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. -- Edward A Mihalow Jr Mudbug Computers and Networks Gentoo! Linux Registered Linux User#225662 New Orleans,LA -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.07.57 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. That would be two a**holes in that discussion. If you read it you would know that may devs tried to correct drobbins but that he couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the chief anymore and that things have changed since he left. I'm not sure that the best guy to run Gentoo is a guy who wants to be THE chief and not one of the community. -- Naga -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.07.57 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. That would be two a**holes in that discussion. If you read it you would know that may devs tried to correct drobbins but that he couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the chief anymore and that things have changed since he left. I'm not sure that the best guy to run Gentoo is a guy who wants to be THE chief and not one of the community. First D Robbins created Gentoo. Second what part of ex-dev don't you understand. If you are an ex-dev you shouldn't even be in the discussion period. -- Edward A Mihalow Jr Mudbug Computers and Networks Gentoo! Linux Registered Linux User#225662 New Orleans,LA -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.33.28 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.07.57 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. That would be two a**holes in that discussion. If you read it you would know that may devs tried to correct drobbins but that he couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the chief anymore and that things have changed since he left. I'm not sure that the best guy to run Gentoo is a guy who wants to be THE chief and not one of the community. First D Robbins created Gentoo. Yeah so? He created Gentoo and then moved on. Thus leaving in the same sense or more since he didn't keep contributing, as the other dev did. Second what part of ex-dev don't you understand. Point being? If you are an ex-dev you shouldn't even be in the discussion period. As both of them where. -- Naga -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.33.28 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.07.57 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. That would be two a**holes in that discussion. If you read it you would know that may devs tried to correct drobbins but that he couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the chief anymore and that things have changed since he left. I'm not sure that the best guy to run Gentoo is a guy who wants to be THE chief and not one of the community. First D Robbins created Gentoo. Yeah so? He created Gentoo and then moved on. Thus leaving in the same sense or more since he didn't keep contributing, as the other dev did. Second what part of ex-dev don't you understand. Point being? If you are an ex-dev you shouldn't even be in the discussion period. As both of them where. Evidently you are new to Gentoo. D Robbins was broke after starting Gentoo and working on it day and night and trying to support a family he needed money. You can't live on nothing. Get it now? He was the dev that created Gentoo not just another dev. Ciaran is a smart dev, but he was only a dev. He quit of his own volition due to the disagreement with other devs as to the direction of Portage. Fine, but don't come back on gentoo-dev and start a bunch of sh**. If you don't like the way things are done start your own distro! Don't come back and crap all over everyone's hard work. There I made it clear for you. It is proper behavior and communication between intelligent people with respect. -- Edward A Mihalow Jr Mudbug Computers and Networks Gentoo! Linux Registered Linux User#225662 New Orleans,LA -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sonntag, 13. Januar 2008, Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.07.57 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. That would be two a**holes in that discussion. If you read it you would know that may devs tried to correct drobbins but that he couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the chief anymore and that things have changed since he left. I'm not sure that the best guy to run Gentoo is a guy who wants to be THE chief and not one of the community. First D Robbins created Gentoo. Second what part of ex-dev don't you understand. If you are an ex-dev you shouldn't even be in the discussion period. that is one of the most stupid things I ever read on this list. So users should never be part of discussions? Their needs? Their opinions? Also, drobbins continued his attacks even after explained SEVERAL times that the stuff ciaranm was doing was a) wanted and b) helpfull and c) supervised by devs. But he couldn't shut up OR accept that things changed since he left. Somebody who can not deal with changes, is somebody certainly unfit for leadership. Yes, he started gentoo (my first gentoo was 1.0). And compared to the chaotic times, gentoo is a heaven of stability today. Back under drobbins leadership it was ok, that the tree was broken or some update screwed your system. Happened all the time - nobody complained (too loudly). And some day he left. Things changed. Gentoo is much more stable today. There is no breakage of the week. No large scale surprising 'nothing works anymore'. A lot of things were done - without him. And he comes back and thinks that he can do better? Please - he already has shown that he can't. He has shown that he will leave projects after a short while (stampede, freebsd, enoch, gentoo, Microsoft). He has never shown that he can pull through with a project. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sunday 13 January 2008 17.31.20 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.33.28 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: Naga Toro wrote: On Sunday 13 January 2008 15.07.57 Eddie Mihalow Jr wrote: I guess you don't get the point of being also in a flame war with a ex-dev who although very bright lacks in all the social skills. I read the thread of these two going at it and hell, I wanted to leave. Who needs the grief of listening to that crap from some a**hole who LEFT the project. Give me a break. That would be two a**holes in that discussion. If you read it you would know that may devs tried to correct drobbins but that he couldn't accept the fact that he wasn't the chief anymore and that things have changed since he left. I'm not sure that the best guy to run Gentoo is a guy who wants to be THE chief and not one of the community. First D Robbins created Gentoo. Yeah so? He created Gentoo and then moved on. Thus leaving in the same sense or more since he didn't keep contributing, as the other dev did. Second what part of ex-dev don't you understand. Point being? If you are an ex-dev you shouldn't even be in the discussion period. As both of them where. Evidently you are new to Gentoo. D Robbins was broke after starting Gentoo and working on it day and night and trying to support a family he needed money. You can't live on nothing. Get it now? He was the dev that created Gentoo not just another dev. Back then yes. (and no I'm not new to Gentoo, been using it for years and been an official part of since about 3/4 of a year) Ciaran is a smart dev, but he was only a dev. He quit of his own volition due to the disagreement with other devs as to the direction of Portage. Fine, but don't come back on gentoo-dev and start a bunch of sh**. If you don't like the way things are done start your own distro! Don't come back and crap all over everyone's hard work. About Ciarans people skills I agree they are none to slim, but the points he makes are valid and since this is an open project he has every right to voice his opinion. -- Naga -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Hemmann, Volker Armin wrote: that is one of the most stupid things I ever read on this list. So users should never be part of discussions? Their needs? Their opinions? Also, drobbins continued his attacks even after explained SEVERAL times that the stuff ciaranm was doing was a) wanted and b) helpfull and c) supervised by devs. But he couldn't shut up OR accept that things changed since he left. Somebody who can not deal with changes, is somebody certainly unfit for leadership. Yes, he started gentoo (my first gentoo was 1.0). And compared to the chaotic times, gentoo is a heaven of stability today. Back under drobbins leadership it was ok, that the tree was broken or some update screwed your system. Happened all the time - nobody complained (too loudly). And some day he left. Things changed. Gentoo is much more stable today. There is no breakage of the week. No large scale surprising 'nothing works anymore'. A lot of things were done - without him. And he comes back and thinks that he can do better? Please - he already has shown that he can't. He has shown that he will leave projects after a short while (stampede, freebsd, enoch, gentoo, Microsoft). He has never shown that he can pull through with a project. With all due respect, the current leadership has not shown they can do any better either. The foundation no longer exists legally. Something that important ever happen when he was here? I do agree that users should have say and be able to express their opinions. If the devs had better social skills, not all but just a few, then maybe some users would express that more. It's just like anything else, only a few makes the rest look bad. As to things breaking in portage, yea, it did happen. Gentoo was pretty new back then and it was expected. I was new back then and I caused some breakage of my own but it was expected to. Code wise, Gentoo has come a VERY VERY LONG ways. It is not just better but hugely better. That doesn't mean that the same would not have happened if he stayed with Gentoo tho. Gentoo was a baby then and like all of us it stumbled until it learned how to walk. Code wise, right now it can run a marathon and win in my opinion. The developers have done their job pretty well but with little social skills I'm afraid. Again, just a few of them tho. Oh, I been here since 1.4 myself. I have been subscribed to -dev, -user and other mailing lists for a long time. I also read the forums tho I don't post as much as I used to. There may be things I don't know but I got a good gut feeling that Gentoo needs better leadership than it currently has. My $0.02 worth. Dale :-) :-) :-) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sunday 13 January 2008, Naga Toro wrote: About Ciarans people skills I agree they are none to slim, but the points he makes are valid and since this is an open project he has every right to voice his opinion. But he has no right to waltz around with *destructive*intent* while doing it. We should not conflate these two things. I am an external observer at a distance and it looks to me like Ciaran likes to troll and break stuff. Why should the group at large give him a platform to speak on if that truly is his intent? If you read Daniel's articles about the genesis of Gentoo, he mentions Stampede and the underlying problems he observed. I see significant parallels between then and now. -- Alan McKinnon alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Saturday 12 January 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Daniel Robbins offers to take back Gentoo leadership. What about it ? Read http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html I've kept very quiet about Gentoo politics for a long time, but Daniel's blog has promoted me to finally open my mouth and express my views. Daniel is in a tricky position - he is the legal President of the Foundation but also has no role in the project in real life. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Trustees as a group have ever done a single thing for Gentoo in three years. The fundamental responsibility of Trustees is to ensure that legal paperwork is properly filed, they did not even do this. Grant Goodyear is getting some things done but he's doing it as one person. Chris is in a similar position. But the Trustees, as a body with specific duties, simply does not exist in any reasonable definition of Trustees. I used to read -dev and various council mailing lists a long time ago as I wanted to keep up to date with these things as a user. I unsubscribed because I couldn't stand the constant bickering going on there. OSS projects always have their laundry out in the public eye and some conflict is always present but Gentoo management manages to take this to a whole new level - from on outsider's point of view, the bickering is done for the sake of bickering, and it does not result in decisions being made or solutions found. Ciaran Mcreesh - I am very specifically looking at you here. The council - I'm not up to date on that aspect so can't comment. When I read about current Gentoo politics I can't help but constantly think of just one word: Stampede. -- Alan McKinnon alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see politic, for my eyes were probably closed. It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must admit I'm sometime lost. Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ? Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too late. Once more, to quote Matrix, the problem is choice. In Free Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers. Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what they were supposed to do : what should they have done ? Thanks. Alan McKinnon a écrit : On Saturday 12 January 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Daniel Robbins offers to take back Gentoo leadership. What about it ? Read http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html I've kept very quiet about Gentoo politics for a long time, but Daniel's blog has promoted me to finally open my mouth and express my views. Daniel is in a tricky position - he is the legal President of the Foundation but also has no role in the project in real life. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Trustees as a group have ever done a single thing for Gentoo in three years. The fundamental responsibility of Trustees is to ensure that legal paperwork is properly filed, they did not even do this. Grant Goodyear is getting some things done but he's doing it as one person. Chris is in a similar position. But the Trustees, as a body with specific duties, simply does not exist in any reasonable definition of Trustees. I used to read -dev and various council mailing lists a long time ago as I wanted to keep up to date with these things as a user. I unsubscribed because I couldn't stand the constant bickering going on there. OSS projects always have their laundry out in the public eye and some conflict is always present but Gentoo management manages to take this to a whole new level - from on outsider's point of view, the bickering is done for the sake of bickering, and it does not result in decisions being made or solutions found. Ciaran Mcreesh - I am very specifically looking at you here. The council - I'm not up to date on that aspect so can't comment. When I read about current Gentoo politics I can't help but constantly think of just one word: Stampede. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote: Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see politic, for my eyes were probably closed. It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must admit I'm sometime lost. Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ? Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too late. Once more, to quote Matrix, the problem is choice. In Free Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers. Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what they were supposed to do : what should they have done ? Thanks. I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful that people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going. From the little exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's views ring depressingly true. I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree with what he suggests - it makes common sense that users views and desires should determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read between the lines to see how might his proposals lead to directions that I would not readily agree with. See this excerpt of his below from OSNews.com in 2002: I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I can stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional efforts exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers would like to do the same thing (I am not critising this statement of his; after all I would very much like to find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like - without having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.) Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view, especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard to rest assured that there will be no conflict of interest. On the other hand it seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership, which can fulfill some rather significant responsibilities. From what I read the current Gentoo administration and management setup does not seem to be able to behave with the professionalism required to achieve that. This makes me anxious for the future of Gentoo. Just my 2c's. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Mick wrote: On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote: Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see politic, for my eyes were probably closed. It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must admit I'm sometime lost. Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ? Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too late. Once more, to quote Matrix, the problem is choice. In Free Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers. Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what they were supposed to do : what should they have done ? Thanks. I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful that people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going. From the little exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's views ring depressingly true. I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree with what he suggests - it makes common sense that users views and desires should determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read between the lines to see how might his proposals lead to directions that I would not readily agree with. See this excerpt of his below from OSNews.com in 2002: I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I can stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional efforts exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers would like to do the same thing (I am not critising this statement of his; after all I would very much like to find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like - without having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.) Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view, especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard to rest assured that there will be no conflict of interest. On the other hand it seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership, which can fulfill some rather significant responsibilities. From what I read the current Gentoo administration and management setup does not seem to be able to behave with the professionalism required to achieve that. This makes me anxious for the future of Gentoo. Just my 2c's. I have been using Gentoo for about 4 or 5 years now. I to think Gentoo has well, lost its way. It seems like a bunch of teenagers is running it sometimes. They decide something then go back a few steps when they don't like the results. Proctors come to mind on that. Users seems to be the last thing on the higher ups mind. That is not good. I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about. I just don't want to see Gentoo fall into the abyss. Dale :-) :-) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 07:34 -0600, Dale wrote: Mick wrote: On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote: Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see politic, for my eyes were probably closed. It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must admit I'm sometime lost. Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ? Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too late. Once more, to quote Matrix, the problem is choice. In Free Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers. Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what they were supposed to do : what should they have done ? Thanks. I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful that people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going. From the little exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's views ring depressingly true. I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree with what he suggests - it makes common sense that users views and desires should determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read between the lines to see how might his proposals lead to directions that I would not readily agree with. See this excerpt of his below from OSNews.com in 2002: I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I can stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional efforts exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers would like to do the same thing (I am not critising this statement of his; after all I would very much like to find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like - without having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.) Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view, especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard to rest assured that there will be no conflict of interest. On the other hand it seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership, which can fulfill some rather significant responsibilities. From what I read the current Gentoo administration and management setup does not seem to be able to behave with the professionalism required to achieve that. This makes me anxious for the future of Gentoo. Just my 2c's. I have been using Gentoo for about 4 or 5 years now. I to think Gentoo has well, lost its way. It seems like a bunch of teenagers is running it sometimes. They decide something then go back a few steps when they don't like the results. Proctors come to mind on that. Users seems to be the last thing on the higher ups mind. That is not good. I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about. I just don't want to see Gentoo fall into the abyss. Dale :-) :-) Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this project. He has been a developer of several operating systems, including Freebsd. I would, as a user, like for him to come back to the project, if it means gentoo going back to the old way. On the other hand, his major decisions with regard to gentoo should be voted on by the developer/user community. I don't want gentoo to become another SuSE. I don't want him to insidiously harm gentoo with the immunity of acting president. Everything should be done in the open. There should be some sort of constitution which protects gentoo from losing certain principles or ethics. One of which is that it will always be free of charge; at least from the gentoo foundation. He has to be, as acting president, bound to a code of ethics or rules decided by the community. It is clear that he cares for this project. He wants to come back but, is he willing to come back as a leader under our conditions? -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:34:47 +0200, Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mick wrote: On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote: Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see politic, for my eyes were probably closed.. Could someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what they were supposed to do : what should they have done ? I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about. I just don't want to see Gentoo fall into the abyss. Dale :-) :-) Dear friends, I 'm Dimitrios Ropokis from Greece, I managed to translate fet- timetabling and smplayer to Greek, I do not know an easy way to put fet on gentoo for download, I am not programmer, smplayer is ok but now it is out of gentoo, my Toshiba laptop had 20 hours to compile open-office 2.3.1, I can not install Option Globetrotter Umts-Data card,even to make Greek look good took a week, but thanks to people like u, I am pleased for what I am doing, I help people to use linux, because its a choice. Choice to communicate,to ask help and give help. Most of it is knowledge. This is critical. The knowledge base of opensource is what next generations need. And it is to your hands. Gentoo is too strong!! Thank you! -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this project. He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for relevant news. Cheers, Renat -- Probleme kann man niemals mit derselben Denkweise loesen, durch die sie entstanden sind. (Einstein) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
He states on his blog that he currently works for E*Trade, a company specializing in electronic ticker tape services for individuals and corporations. -Hal Renat Golubchyk wrote: On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this project. He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for relevant news. Cheers, Renat -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 18:22 +0100, Renat Golubchyk wrote: On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this project. He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for relevant news. Cheers, Renat Even more of a reason to bring him back! -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Saturday 12 January 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Daniel Robbins offers to take back Gentoo leadership. What about it ? Read http://blog.funtoo.org/2008/01/here-my-offer.html I've kept very quiet about Gentoo politics for a long time, but Daniel's blog has promoted me to finally open my mouth and express my views. Daniel is in a tricky position - he is the legal President of the Foundation but also has no role in the project in real life. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Trustees as a group have ever done a single thing for Gentoo in three years. The fundamental responsibility of Trustees is to ensure that legal paperwork is properly filed, they did not even do this. Grant Goodyear is getting some things done but he's doing it as one person. Chris is in a similar position. But the Trustees, as a body with specific duties, simply does not exist in any reasonable definition of Trustees. I used to read -dev and various council mailing lists a long time ago as I wanted to keep up to date with these things as a user. I unsubscribed because I couldn't stand the constant bickering going on there. OSS projects always have their laundry out in the public eye and some conflict is always present but Gentoo management manages to take this to a whole new level - from on outsider's point of view, the bickering is done for the sake of bickering, and it does not result in decisions being made or solutions found. Ciaran Mcreesh - I am very specifically looking at you here. Very strongly agree with Mr McCreesh (spelling?). While I respect his technical abilities and contributions, I believe his horrible attitude, clear trolling and ability to pit devs against each other, seemingly for fun, is far more harmful. That he wasn't gotten rid of early on is actually the biggest sign of problems in my eyes. That he has fans and followers is another. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Samstag, 12. Januar 2008, Richard Marzan wrote: On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 07:34 -0600, Dale wrote: Mick wrote: On Saturday 12 January 2008, Jil Larner wrote: Well, it's like if I am opening my eyes. I never looked at what the foundation was supposed to do. For a couple of years I've been using gentoo, I never get any political announcement, maybe because I didn't look at the right place, or maybe there was no. I mean that except the Gentoo's Philosophy and the Gentoo's Social Contract, I didn't see politic, for my eyes were probably closed. It doesn't mean I didn't enjoyed gentoo, its power, its flexibility, its community. But I certainly missed something. There are so many ways to communicate (lists, IRC, boards, wikis, project pages, etc.) that I must admit I'm sometime lost. Today, I learn we're in trouble. Good. What trouble ? What's happening ? Why through the words of Daniel Robbins, I feel some fear ? I feel he foresees a dead end and offers an opportunity to change before it is too late. Once more, to quote Matrix, the problem is choice. In Free Software, there are often choices where the community can get involved in and it makes our strength. The problem is, and is not, legal papers. Because, IMO, legal papers are the visible part of an Iceberg. Could someone tell me what *really* is the crisis ? If people did not do what they were supposed to do : what should they have done ? Thanks. I am equally agnostic of Gentoo management politics, albeit grateful that people volunteer their time and effort to keep it going. From the little exposure that I have had to it all it seems to me that Alan's views ring depressingly true. I read Daniel's blog and cannot disagree with what he suggests - it makes common sense that users views and desires should determine Gentoo's direction, but I have not read between the lines to see how might his proposals lead to directions that I would not readily agree with. See this excerpt of his below from OSNews.com in 2002: I very much want to find a way to turn the Gentoo Linux project into a profitable enterprise. My main motivation in wanting to do this is so I can stop living from paycheck to paycheck and focus my professional efforts exclusively on Gentoo Linux development. Many of our developers would like to do the same thing (I am not critising this statement of his; after all I would very much like to find myself a sustainable way of being able to do what I like - without having to spend the biggest part of my day in my current job.) Giving a free hand to any single person is not safe in my humble view, especially if that person is employed by Microsoft - I will find hard to rest assured that there will be no conflict of interest. On the other hand it seems that Gentoo desperately needs *mature* leadership, which can fulfill some rather significant responsibilities. From what I read the current Gentoo administration and management setup does not seem to be able to behave with the professionalism required to achieve that. This makes me anxious for the future of Gentoo. Just my 2c's. I have been using Gentoo for about 4 or 5 years now. I to think Gentoo has well, lost its way. It seems like a bunch of teenagers is running it sometimes. They decide something then go back a few steps when they don't like the results. Proctors come to mind on that. Users seems to be the last thing on the higher ups mind. That is not good. I love my Gentoo but I would like to see someone step up and get some things done and some decisions made, even those we may never know about. I just don't want to see Gentoo fall into the abyss. Dale :-) :-) Although he works for Microsoft, worked not works. Daniel is the one who created this project and then he walked away. And don't forget his stunt last year, when he came back for 2 days and started a big fat flame war. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Daniel Robbins' come back ?
On Samstag, 12. Januar 2008, Richard Marzan wrote: On Sat, 2008-01-12 at 18:22 +0100, Renat Golubchyk wrote: On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:07:39 -0500 Richard Marzan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although he works for Microsoft, Daniel is the one who created this project. He doesn't work for Microsoft any longer. Check Wikipedia or Google for relevant news. Cheers, Renat Even more of a reason to bring him back! no, just another sign that he never pulls through. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
