Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
On 3 February 2012, at 15:34, James wrote: Grant emailgrant at gmail.com writes: I'd like to have multiple users working from separate monitors, keyboards, and mice, but all connected to a single Gentoo computer. The main purpose is to minimize sys admin duties but hardware and power requirements would also be minimized. ATI make quad head video cards. If you do not need fancy graphics, the cost is very reasonable. the easiest thing is to get a multi head card, with keyboard and mouse ports for each monitor port, if they are still manufactured. If not, get dual head cards complete with mouse and keyboard ports. Why not just use USB mice keyboards? Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
Can you rely on Xorg devs to ensure that they are not going to break your multiseat system in the future? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know why there would be (much) more likelihood of regression with Xorg multiseat than with anything else, including LTSP and all of its dependencies. Because fewer people are testing it. That's fair but Gentoo makes it easy to roll back if necessary. You can get low-powered Linux systems for $100 or $150 - either a little MIPs ShivaPlug or (I guess) a secondhand atom nettop (Acer Revo). If you save 2 hours per machine by using a standard and common thinclient configuration, then the hardware has paid for itself. You're saying use built-in thin-client firmware (on the SheevaPlug for example) along with something like VNC or NX on the server to save time over an LTSP setup? That would mean giving up some software control. Assuming multiseat works, is there an advantage to this over multiseat? If you have to employ a Linux sys admin to help you fix a complicated problem with Xorg multiseat, then it will run you at least $100 or $150 for those 2 hours. That's how you should be valuing your own time, too. LTSP and its host of dependencies seem much more complicated to me than multiseat. - Grant Nevermind on this. I'm back in now. - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
I've been in the same situation a short time ago. Finally I decided to buy a cheap notebook (ASUS AMD 1GHz, 8 Gb RAM) for 265 Euro, only -- running Gentoo, of course. I've installed a private wireless network. So my wife can sit anywhere and she can still connect to our family server if she likes. If I had to buy a monitor, graphics card, keyboard and a better power supply, that would have beeen more expensive. Furthermore the notebook solution is more flexible. Helmut. On 01/30/2012 12:29:37 AM, Grant wrote: I'd like to have multiple users working from separate monitors, keyboards, and mice, but all connected to a single Gentoo computer. The main purpose is to minimize sys admin duties but hardware and power requirements would also be minimized. Apparently this is called multiseat and native support in Xorg might not be ready for primetime: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/Multiseat http://vignatti.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/multiseat-roadmap There is a configuration tool for Xorg multiseat called MDM: http://wiki.c3sl.ufpr.br/multiseat/index.php/Mdm but from what I've read it isn't ideal. Besides Xorg multiseat I've read about LTSP and a few others: http://www.ltsp.org http://www.thinstation.org http://automseat.sourceforge.net http://www.openthinclient.org There are also a lot of proprietary options. Is LTSP the way to go? It may be, but as with all thin client models you would need a terminal computer for each user. If you only have one machine and monitors, keyboards and mice for each user then you'll need multiple video cards (and a strong power supply) for your only PC. In this case something like http://automseat.sourceforge.net may be more appropriate. However, I have not used anything like this set up to offer an opinion on performance. At work we use thin clients running Debian to serve MSWindows server desktop and apps to users. This setup uses the Citrix ica protocol, but I'm thinking that FreeNX coupled with VNC or relevant KDE or Gnome remote desktop implementation would probably work nicely and offer LAN and remote connection security at the same time. -- Regards, Mick If I throw out installing a separate OS on a separate machine for each workstation and all of the proprietary thin-client protocols, I think I have 3 options: 1. Connect monitors, USB keyboards, and USB mice directly to a server with multiple video cards. I found a motherboard with 6 PCI-E slots: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128508 6 video cards could be installed for 6 workstations if the server goes headless, and even more if multi-headed video cards are used. Xorg requires some special configuration for this but this discussion from 2010 sounds like it's something that is actually done: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-836950-start-0.html These guys got it working in 2006: http://www.linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html 2. Set up a separate thin client for each workstation and run LTSP on the server. This seems inferior to #1 because it requires setting up and maintaining the LTSP server and client configuration, NFS, xinetd, tftp, dnsmasq, and PXE-boot. Bandwidth would also be limited compared to #1 and hardware and power requirements would be much greater. 3. Run a Plugable thin client for each workstation: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004PXPPNA This likely requires running Userful Multiseat Linux on my server which is only packaged up for Ubuntu. The Plugable thin client connects to the server via USB 2.0 which makes me wonder if it could be made to work without Userful Multiseat Linux as a USB video card and input devices, but I imagine drivers for the video card and bandwidth over USB could be a problem. I think #1 is the way to go but I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion on that. Has anyone here ever set up multiseat in Xorg? - Grant -- Helmut Jarausch Lehrstuhl fuer Numerische Mathematik RWTH - Aachen University D 52056 Aachen, Germany
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
On Sunday 29 Jan 2012 23:29:37 Grant wrote: I'd like to have multiple users working from separate monitors, keyboards, and mice, but all connected to a single Gentoo computer. The main purpose is to minimize sys admin duties but hardware and power requirements would also be minimized. Apparently this is called multiseat and native support in Xorg might not be ready for primetime: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/Multiseat http://vignatti.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/multiseat-roadmap There is a configuration tool for Xorg multiseat called MDM: http://wiki.c3sl.ufpr.br/multiseat/index.php/Mdm but from what I've read it isn't ideal. Besides Xorg multiseat I've read about LTSP and a few others: http://www.ltsp.org http://www.thinstation.org http://automseat.sourceforge.net http://www.openthinclient.org There are also a lot of proprietary options. Is LTSP the way to go? It may be, but as with all thin client models you would need a terminal computer for each user. If you only have one machine and monitors, keyboards and mice for each user then you'll need multiple video cards (and a strong power supply) for your only PC. In this case something like http://automseat.sourceforge.net may be more appropriate. However, I have not used anything like this set up to offer an opinion on performance. At work we use thin clients running Debian to serve MSWindows server desktop and apps to users. This setup uses the Citrix ica protocol, but I'm thinking that FreeNX coupled with VNC or relevant KDE or Gnome remote desktop implementation would probably work nicely and offer LAN and remote connection security at the same time. -- Regards, Mick If I throw out installing a separate OS on a separate machine for each workstation and all of the proprietary thin-client protocols, I think I have 3 options: 1. Connect monitors, USB keyboards, and USB mice directly to a server with multiple video cards. I found a motherboard with 6 PCI-E slots: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128508 6 video cards could be installed for 6 workstations if the server goes headless, and even more if multi-headed video cards are used. Xorg requires some special configuration for this but this discussion from 2010 sounds like it's something that is actually done: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-836950-start-0.html These guys got it working in 2006: http://www.linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html 2. Set up a separate thin client for each workstation and run LTSP on the server. This seems inferior to #1 because it requires setting up and maintaining the LTSP server and client configuration, NFS, xinetd, tftp, dnsmasq, and PXE-boot. Bandwidth would also be limited compared to #1 and hardware and power requirements would be much greater. 3. Run a Plugable thin client for each workstation: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004PXPPNA This likely requires running Userful Multiseat Linux on my server which is only packaged up for Ubuntu. The Plugable thin client connects to the server via USB 2.0 which makes me wonder if it could be made to work without Userful Multiseat Linux as a USB video card and input devices, but I imagine drivers for the video card and bandwidth over USB could be a problem. I think #1 is the way to go but I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion on that. Has anyone here ever set up multiseat in Xorg? Can you rely on Xorg devs to ensure that they are not going to break your multiseat system in the future? Are you sure that you will come across bandwidth issues if you follow option #2? On a gigabit network at work we're running thousands of thin clients distributed across hundreds of VM servers, and there is no noticeable latency (unless a particular VM MSWindows server plays up). I understand that managing multiple boxen is always a greater burden, but something like GNAP may lighten the work needed? http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/gnap-userguide.xml Unfortunately I do not have experience of all the above setups to advice. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
I've been in the same situation a short time ago. Finally I decided to buy a cheap notebook (ASUS AMD 1GHz, 8 Gb RAM) for 265 Euro, only -- running Gentoo, of course. I've installed a private wireless network. So my wife can sit anywhere and she can still connect to our family server if she likes. If I had to buy a monitor, graphics card, keyboard and a better power supply, that would have beeen more expensive. Furthermore the notebook solution is more flexible. If we're comparing hardware cost vs. hardware performance and flexibility, the cheap notebook could win. The #1 priority for me is minimizing sys admin duties though. I would need a Gentoo system for duties like router and firewall anyway, and if I build the multiseat capabilities into that same system, I have at least 6 workstations and zero systems to administrate because of them. - Grant I'd like to have multiple users working from separate monitors, keyboards, and mice, but all connected to a single Gentoo computer. The main purpose is to minimize sys admin duties but hardware and power requirements would also be minimized. Apparently this is called multiseat and native support in Xorg might not be ready for primetime: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/Multiseat http://vignatti.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/multiseat-roadmap There is a configuration tool for Xorg multiseat called MDM: http://wiki.c3sl.ufpr.br/multiseat/index.php/Mdm but from what I've read it isn't ideal. Besides Xorg multiseat I've read about LTSP and a few others: http://www.ltsp.org http://www.thinstation.org http://automseat.sourceforge.net http://www.openthinclient.org There are also a lot of proprietary options. Is LTSP the way to go? It may be, but as with all thin client models you would need a terminal computer for each user. If you only have one machine and monitors, keyboards and mice for each user then you'll need multiple video cards (and a strong power supply) for your only PC. In this case something like http://automseat.sourceforge.net may be more appropriate. However, I have not used anything like this set up to offer an opinion on performance. At work we use thin clients running Debian to serve MSWindows server desktop and apps to users. This setup uses the Citrix ica protocol, but I'm thinking that FreeNX coupled with VNC or relevant KDE or Gnome remote desktop implementation would probably work nicely and offer LAN and remote connection security at the same time. -- Regards, Mick If I throw out installing a separate OS on a separate machine for each workstation and all of the proprietary thin-client protocols, I think I have 3 options: 1. Connect monitors, USB keyboards, and USB mice directly to a server with multiple video cards. I found a motherboard with 6 PCI-E slots: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128508 6 video cards could be installed for 6 workstations if the server goes headless, and even more if multi-headed video cards are used. Xorg requires some special configuration for this but this discussion from 2010 sounds like it's something that is actually done: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-836950-start-0.html These guys got it working in 2006: http://www.linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html 2. Set up a separate thin client for each workstation and run LTSP on the server. This seems inferior to #1 because it requires setting up and maintaining the LTSP server and client configuration, NFS, xinetd, tftp, dnsmasq, and PXE-boot. Bandwidth would also be limited compared to #1 and hardware and power requirements would be much greater. 3. Run a Plugable thin client for each workstation: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004PXPPNA This likely requires running Userful Multiseat Linux on my server which is only packaged up for Ubuntu. The Plugable thin client connects to the server via USB 2.0 which makes me wonder if it could be made to work without Userful Multiseat Linux as a USB video card and input devices, but I imagine drivers for the video card and bandwidth over USB could be a problem. I think #1 is the way to go but I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion on that. Has anyone here ever set up multiseat in Xorg? - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
[snip] If I throw out installing a separate OS on a separate machine for each workstation and all of the proprietary thin-client protocols, I think I have 3 options: 1. Connect monitors, USB keyboards, and USB mice directly to a server with multiple video cards. I found a motherboard with 6 PCI-E slots: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128508 6 video cards could be installed for 6 workstations if the server goes headless, and even more if multi-headed video cards are used. Xorg requires some special configuration for this but this discussion from 2010 sounds like it's something that is actually done: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-836950-start-0.html These guys got it working in 2006: http://www.linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html 2. Set up a separate thin client for each workstation and run LTSP on the server. This seems inferior to #1 because it requires setting up and maintaining the LTSP server and client configuration, NFS, xinetd, tftp, dnsmasq, and PXE-boot. Bandwidth would also be limited compared to #1 and hardware and power requirements would be much greater. 3. Run a Plugable thin client for each workstation: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004PXPPNA This likely requires running Userful Multiseat Linux on my server which is only packaged up for Ubuntu. The Plugable thin client connects to the server via USB 2.0 which makes me wonder if it could be made to work without Userful Multiseat Linux as a USB video card and input devices, but I imagine drivers for the video card and bandwidth over USB could be a problem. I think #1 is the way to go but I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion on that. Has anyone here ever set up multiseat in Xorg? Can you rely on Xorg devs to ensure that they are not going to break your multiseat system in the future? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know why there would be (much) more likelihood of regression with Xorg multiseat than with anything else, including LTSP and all of its dependencies. In the context of both hardware and software, I think there are much fewer points of potential failure with multiseat than with an LTSP thin-client arrangement. Are you sure that you will come across bandwidth issues if you follow option #2? On a gigabit network at work we're running thousands of thin clients distributed across hundreds of VM servers, and there is no noticeable latency (unless a particular VM MSWindows server plays up). I'm sure I wouldn't. I only mentioned the increased bandwidth of multiseat vs. thin-clients as a technicality. I understand that managing multiple boxen is always a greater burden, but something like GNAP may lighten the work needed? http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/gnap-userguide.xml That looks cool, but from my perspective it's another layer to learn, install, configure, and manage. chef and puppet take a different approach to lessening the burden of administrating multiple systems, but in the end neither approach comes anywhere near the hardware and software simplicity (and corresponding ease of setup and maintenance) of multiseat. - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
On 30 January 2012, at 17:41, Grant wrote: ... Can you rely on Xorg devs to ensure that they are not going to break your multiseat system in the future? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know why there would be (much) more likelihood of regression with Xorg multiseat than with anything else, including LTSP and all of its dependencies. Because fewer people are testing it. You can get low-powered Linux systems for $100 or $150 - either a little MIPs ShivaPlug or (I guess) a secondhand atom nettop (Acer Revo). If you save 2 hours per machine by using a standard and common thinclient configuration, then the hardware has paid for itself. If you have to employ a Linux sys admin to help you fix a complicated problem with Xorg multiseat, then it will run you at least $100 or $150 for those 2 hours. That's how you should be valuing your own time, too. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
Can you rely on Xorg devs to ensure that they are not going to break your multiseat system in the future? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know why there would be (much) more likelihood of regression with Xorg multiseat than with anything else, including LTSP and all of its dependencies. Because fewer people are testing it. That's fair but Gentoo makes it easy to roll back if necessary. You can get low-powered Linux systems for $100 or $150 - either a little MIPs ShivaPlug or (I guess) a secondhand atom nettop (Acer Revo). If you save 2 hours per machine by using a standard and common thinclient configuration, then the hardware has paid for itself. You're saying use built-in thin-client firmware (on the SheevaPlug for example) along with something like VNC or NX on the server to save time over an LTSP setup? That would mean giving up some software control. Assuming multiseat works, is there an advantage to this over multiseat? If you have to employ a Linux sys admin to help you fix a complicated problem with Xorg multiseat, then it will run you at least $100 or $150 for those 2 hours. That's how you should be valuing your own time, too. LTSP and its host of dependencies seem much more complicated to me than multiseat. - Grant
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
On Sunday 29 Jan 2012 05:26:28 Grant wrote: I'd like to have multiple users working from separate monitors, keyboards, and mice, but all connected to a single Gentoo computer. The main purpose is to minimize sys admin duties but hardware and power requirements would also be minimized. Apparently this is called multiseat and native support in Xorg might not be ready for primetime: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/Multiseat http://vignatti.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/multiseat-roadmap There is a configuration tool for Xorg multiseat called MDM: http://wiki.c3sl.ufpr.br/multiseat/index.php/Mdm but from what I've read it isn't ideal. Besides Xorg multiseat I've read about LTSP and a few others: http://www.ltsp.org http://www.thinstation.org http://automseat.sourceforge.net http://www.openthinclient.org There are also a lot of proprietary options. Is LTSP the way to go? It may be, but as with all thin client models you would need a terminal computer for each user. If you only have one machine and monitors, keyboards and mice for each user then you'll need multiple video cards (and a strong power supply) for your only PC. In this case something like http://automseat.sourceforge.net may be more appropriate. However, I have not used anything like this set up to offer an opinion on performance. At work we use thin clients running Debian to serve MSWindows server desktop and apps to users. This setup uses the Citrix ica protocol, but I'm thinking that FreeNX coupled with VNC or relevant KDE or Gnome remote desktop implementation would probably work nicely and offer LAN and remote connection security at the same time. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Multiseat -- LTSP?
I'd like to have multiple users working from separate monitors, keyboards, and mice, but all connected to a single Gentoo computer. The main purpose is to minimize sys admin duties but hardware and power requirements would also be minimized. Apparently this is called multiseat and native support in Xorg might not be ready for primetime: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Development/Documentation/Multiseat http://vignatti.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/multiseat-roadmap There is a configuration tool for Xorg multiseat called MDM: http://wiki.c3sl.ufpr.br/multiseat/index.php/Mdm but from what I've read it isn't ideal. Besides Xorg multiseat I've read about LTSP and a few others: http://www.ltsp.org http://www.thinstation.org http://automseat.sourceforge.net http://www.openthinclient.org There are also a lot of proprietary options. Is LTSP the way to go? It may be, but as with all thin client models you would need a terminal computer for each user. If you only have one machine and monitors, keyboards and mice for each user then you'll need multiple video cards (and a strong power supply) for your only PC. In this case something like http://automseat.sourceforge.net may be more appropriate. However, I have not used anything like this set up to offer an opinion on performance. At work we use thin clients running Debian to serve MSWindows server desktop and apps to users. This setup uses the Citrix ica protocol, but I'm thinking that FreeNX coupled with VNC or relevant KDE or Gnome remote desktop implementation would probably work nicely and offer LAN and remote connection security at the same time. -- Regards, Mick If I throw out installing a separate OS on a separate machine for each workstation and all of the proprietary thin-client protocols, I think I have 3 options: 1. Connect monitors, USB keyboards, and USB mice directly to a server with multiple video cards. I found a motherboard with 6 PCI-E slots: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128508 6 video cards could be installed for 6 workstations if the server goes headless, and even more if multi-headed video cards are used. Xorg requires some special configuration for this but this discussion from 2010 sounds like it's something that is actually done: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-836950-start-0.html These guys got it working in 2006: http://www.linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html 2. Set up a separate thin client for each workstation and run LTSP on the server. This seems inferior to #1 because it requires setting up and maintaining the LTSP server and client configuration, NFS, xinetd, tftp, dnsmasq, and PXE-boot. Bandwidth would also be limited compared to #1 and hardware and power requirements would be much greater. 3. Run a Plugable thin client for each workstation: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004PXPPNA This likely requires running Userful Multiseat Linux on my server which is only packaged up for Ubuntu. The Plugable thin client connects to the server via USB 2.0 which makes me wonder if it could be made to work without Userful Multiseat Linux as a USB video card and input devices, but I imagine drivers for the video card and bandwidth over USB could be a problem. I think #1 is the way to go but I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion on that. Has anyone here ever set up multiseat in Xorg? - Grant
