subject:"Re\: \[gentoo\-user\] Re\: \[ANNOUNCE\] I like systemd now \:\)"

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
 alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
  In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
  breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he
  works on.
 
 Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
 desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
 what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.
 
 Regards.

Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?

I'm hoping it's the former.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
 alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
  In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
  breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he
  works on.

 Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
 desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
 what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.

 Regards.

 Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?

 I'm hoping it's the former.

Just in discussion mode. The statement this distro does not fit the
general problems he [Poettering] works on doesn't make much sense; I
thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to.
Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev
developers.

Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute
said statement.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-12 Thread Neil Bothwick

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:

 If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
 replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to
 us, we could avoid flame wars.

Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad
an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to
use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While
this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in
general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems
for someone following that advice.

Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.

On the topic of swearing, some consider it bad language, as you do, and
I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others
seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are
times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement,
especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally
little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are
native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language
different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of
the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid
not to offend.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 02:37:13 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 2:20 AM, Alan McKinnon
 alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
  On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600
  Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon
  alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
   In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for
   breaking Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems
   he works on.
 
  Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines
  (laptops, desktops, servers and media center) running with
  Gentoo+systemd (and what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget
  of my imagination.
 
  Regards.
 
  Are you in discussion mode or pick a fight mode?
 
  I'm hoping it's the former.
 
 Just in discussion mode. The statement this distro does not fit the
 general problems he [Poettering] works on doesn't make much sense; I
 thought Gentoo fitted basically everything the user wanted to.
 Therefore, in particular fits the model set by the systemd/udev
 developers.
 
 Case in point: in my use cases, it fits. I just used sarcasm to refute
 said statement.

OK.

I was speaking in broad terms, and unfortunately English is a very
overloaded language; it doesn't do absolute precision very well.

I well know that any of us can configure a Gentoo system to work
correctly with just about any sane software; even if we have to get
under the hood that's all just part of the deal using Gentoo.
Quite obviously that's what you did with systemd to greater or lesser
degree.

But that's not what I was referring to, and you shouldn't take what I
said to imply I meant something universally true either. Like I said,
English is overloaded and more often than not when humans talk, the
precision is fuzzy.

Gentoo systems tend to be tweaked extensively by the owners (we have
that freedom), in contrast to binary distros that usually have a much
more rigid basic layout - you get what the maintainer gives you.
Switching the startup system on Fedora is quite straightforward - the
next release comes out with different software packages compared to the
previous version (and the user gets to figure out this new thing) but
it mostly works. On Gentoo the user gets to deal with the breakage of
such low-level changes themselves, so we open the hood and break out
the spanners. This is breakage - the fuzzy definition. 

But all of this is a side issue anyway. The main thrust of my post was
that some software and developers have a tendency to get tempers riled
up around here (remember /usr, separate volumes and initrd?) and with a
volatile audience, well they are volatile. So Bruce shouldn't consider
a thread like this one to be representative of very much at all


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-12 Thread Dale

Neil Bothwick wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:

  If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
  replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to
  us, we could avoid flame wars.
 Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad
 an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to
 use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While
 this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in
 general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems
 for someone following that advice.

 Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
 discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.

 On the topic of swearing, some consider it bad language, as you do, and
 I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others
 seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are
 times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement,
 especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally
 little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are
 native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language
 different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of
 the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid
 not to offend.


 -- Neil Bothwick And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make

And there goes that sig again.  How does that thing do what it does?  lol 

I'm of the sort that when you get to the point of swearing, you have ran
out of better ways to get the point across or just out of ideas all
together.  In the recent case, it was not only disrespectful, it was
surely rude.  This is something this list should not tolerate and I for
one have no plans to do so.  I fixed my issue but that still leaves the
list to fix the rest.  I just don't want to see this list be like -dev
once was.  Gentoo has come a long way on this to start going backwards. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how 
you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-12 Thread Bruce Hill

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 09:37:03AM +, Neil Bothwick wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 23:21:06 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:
 
  If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
  replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to
  us, we could avoid flame wars.
 
 Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how bad
 an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the suggestion to
 use dd to copy one drive to another with a different block size. While
 this may have worked for the person suggesting it, it is a bad idea in
 general and refraining from stating that could have resulted n problems
 for someone following that advice.

Might I suggest that it is more appropriate, and more likely to be received,
if it is 'pointed out' with logic, technical explanation, and courtesy.

 Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
 discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.

Which can (and should) be done well without sarcasm and personal attack.

 On the topic of swearing, some consider it bad language, as you do, and
 I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression (others
 seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending that). There are
 times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to a statement,
 especially when used rarely, but on a list like this there is generally
 little or no need for it. However, not all users of this list are
 native-English speakers and other cultures see use of such language
 different - one only has to look at the comments made on the podium of
 the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by professional drivers who are paid
 not to offend.

God, whom you mention in your sig, has written His law on the heart of every
one, so that they are without excuse. Having visited 10 countries, and lived
in China for almost 9 years, my experience has been that even most heathen in
remote villages understand propriety.

This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well understands.
But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: I hope it doesn't
offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention. Seems he didn't *really*
mean that, and will continue to offend others.

 -- 
 Neil Bothwick
 
 And on the seventh day God said :wq and then make
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-12 Thread Bruce Hill

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:
  
  Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
  desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
  what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.

fidget is what little boys do when they get caught doing something they know
they should not have done in the first place; such as using profanity on a
public list...

You want the word figment, which means:
n - a fantastic notion, invention, or fabrication: a figment of the
imagination
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-12 Thread Neil Bothwick

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:59:39 -0600, Bruce Hill wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 09:37:03AM +, Neil Bothwick wrote:
  Unfortunately, there are times when it is necessary to point out how
  bad an idea is in order to help someone. Recent example: the
  suggestion to use dd to copy one drive to another with a different
  block size. While this may have worked for the person suggesting it,
  it is a bad idea in general and refraining from stating that could
  have resulted n problems for someone following that advice.
 
 Might I suggest that it is more appropriate, and more likely to be
 received, if it is 'pointed out' with logic, technical explanation, and
 courtesy.

I didn't say otherwise. However, clarity is also important, if an idea is
considered poorly conceived, dangerous or simply stupid, there is nothing
wrong with stating that. Condemning the idea is not the same as condemning
the man, even though there is always an implication that someone
proposing a poor idea is in some way at fault, even if that fault is no
more than rushing to try to help without considering the possibilities.

  Surely stating the merits or otherwise of an idea is a core element of
  discussion, and discussion is what this list is about.
 
 Which can (and should) be done well without sarcasm and personal attack.

Agreed absolutely. There are times when a discussion moves beyond the
facts into personal territory, as happened in this thread. In such a
case you should consider the track record of the person making the
comments. Volker is known to to be somewhat abrupt, although there
doesn't appear to be any malice, Alan has a somewhat sarcastic streak.
When the comments come from an unknown poster (even one with no
recognisable name) they can provoke a stronger, less considered reaction,
precisely because there is no history.

  On the topic of swearing, some consider it bad language, as you do,
  and I respect that view. Others consider it a means of expression
  (others seem to use it for punctuation, but no one is defending
  that). There are times that some words can add emotion or emphasis to
  a statement, especially when used rarely, but on a list like this
  there is generally little or no need for it. However, not all users
  of this list are native-English speakers and other cultures see use
  of such language different - one only has to look at the comments
  made on the podium of the Abu Dhabi F1 Grand Prix, made by
  professional drivers who are paid not to offend.
 
 God, whom you mention in your sig, has written His law on the heart of
 every one, so that they are without excuse. Having visited 10
 countries, and lived in China for almost 9 years, my experience has
 been that even most heathen in remote villages understand propriety.

Maybe, but propriety is a feature of a culture and this list has users
from many cultures. There may even be some offended by your trying to
enforce your God's edicts n their behaviour.

This is a multicultural list, we should live and let live. If someone's
attitude or words offend you, you are free to ignore them, but they are
just as free to continue acting as they do. The Internet is
self-regulating and that applies to mailing lists too. This is primarily
a help forum, those with attitude may find that when they need help, they
have been killfiled by the very people that can help them.

 This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well
 understands. But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: I
 hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention.
 Seems he didn't *really* mean that, and will continue to offend others.

I agree, although that is more to do with attitude than language, it's
like people who apologise before doing something wrong. What they are
really saying it I know what I am about to do it wrong, but I'm going to
do it anyway. Not that I was at all bothered by the client that phoned
me again yesterday with sorry to ring you no a Sunday, but... followed
by a trivial question that could have waited until today, or even be put
in an email.

Please don't confuse choice of vocabulary with courtesy. I use what you
consider bad language at times, when it fulfils two criteria.

1) I feel it makes my statement more effective
2) I know it won't offend the person(s) I am speaking to

However, those are my values, I don't try to force them on others. People
who don't like the way I act are as free t ignore me as I them. Making a
big thing about it is ultimately pointless.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Your lack of organisation does not represent an
emergency in my world.


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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-12 Thread Bruce Hill

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 12:28:52PM +, Neil Bothwick wrote:
 
snip 
 -- 
 Neil Bothwick

Duly noted and appreciated ... thank you.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-12 Thread Volker Armin Hemmann

Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 18:24:32 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com 
wrote:
  On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800
  
  微蔡 micro...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
  在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
  
   On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
   
   wrote:
hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't
want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a
valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or
systemd. Now it is forced on everybody.

When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course,
one could use udev without [systemd] in the future.

Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
  
  obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev
  seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.
  
  Say Dude,
  
  I have a question (well, two actually)
  
  My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years.
  
  What's your name, and how long have you been around?
  
  Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
  meritocracy.
 
 Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic
 this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a
 member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
 constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
 

in that case Alan certainly is at the very top. 

He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one of a 
handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil Bothwick. Just to 
name two that rank very highly on my privat list of good gentoo-user citizens. 

Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is very rare.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
[huge snip]
 But all of this is a side issue anyway. The main thrust of my post was
 that some software and developers have a tendency to get tempers riled
 up around here (remember /usr, separate volumes and initrd?) and with a
 volatile audience, well they are volatile. So Bruce shouldn't consider
 a thread like this one to be representative of very much at all

I can agree with that.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 6:09 AM, Bruce Hill
da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:17:50 -0600 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
  Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
  desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
  what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.

 fidget is what little boys do when they get caught doing something they know
 they should not have done in the first place; such as using profanity on a
 public list...

Cute. Just to be clear; it's *you* who believe that  using profanity
on a public list is something [...] they should not have done. I
don't belive that; I believe everyone has the right to express my
whichever means (words included) they want.

 You want the word figment, which means:
 n - a fantastic notion, invention, or fabrication: a figment of the
 imagination

Thanks for the correction; it was really late last night, and I didn't
notice it.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Bruce Hill
da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
[snip]
 This person doing post-grad work in a Mexican universtiy well understands.
 But even if you doubt that, just reference his remark: I hope it doesn't
 offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention. Seems he didn't *really*
 mean that, and will continue to offend others.

This person has a name, and it is Canek. Refusing to use it could be
considered not proper in some circles.

And I repeat, I didn't intended to offend anyone; I didn't sent the
mail thinking oh, I surely hope a lot of folks get offended by what
I'm saying. I used fuck just to emphasize my point, and I will do
it again if I believe the topic has merit to do so.

If you don't want to believe me, well, that's your problem, not mine.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote:
[snip]
 Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic
 this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a
 member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
 constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.


 in that case Alan certainly is at the very top.

 He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one of a
 handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil Bothwick. Just to
 name two that rank very highly on my privat list of good gentoo-user citizens.

 Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is very rare.

I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for how long
someone has been around to determine his place in the pecking
order it's laughable.

Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I
don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't
agree with the way he said them.

But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to
undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and
cheap at the worst.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:21:06 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
 volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote:
 [snip]
  Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic
  this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a
  member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
  constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
 
 
  in that case Alan certainly is at the very top.
 
  He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one
  of a handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil
  Bothwick. Just to name two that rank very highly on my privat list
  of good gentoo-user citizens.
 
  Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is
  very rare.
 
 I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for how long
 someone has been around to determine his place in the pecking
 order it's laughable.
 
 Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I
 don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't
 agree with the way he said them.
 
 But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to
 undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and
 cheap at the worst.

Now is the correct time to point out that you misinterpreted my post. I
didn't say so earlier for the simple reason that (in my world at least)
that always seems to pour gasoline on fires.

The intent was for 微蔡 to respond then I could point out that I felt
him coming in here brand new and making comments of haters and so on
was highly inappropriate and considered rude in almost all human
cultures. It is true that longevity doesn't buy much, but it is also
true that people in a group or community do have to establish at least
*some* street cred first. Sans that, we have little more than
mob-chaos. 

That didn't happen, partly as you got in first. But no bad feelings
from this end, you feel how you feel and that's how it is. And I'm
certainly not about to insist you change your viewpoint on life or
change who and what you are.

I'm going to pinch Dale's sig as I think it's relevant:

I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood
or how you interpreted my words!

There's no finger pointing in that, I find it a useful daily reminder
about how easy it is to misinterpret mail. God knows I've done more of
that myself than most.



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:59:39 -0600
Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:

 my experience has been that even most heathen in
 remote villages understand propriety.

My experience is that all so-called primitive societies have an
excellent grasp of this thing called manners - it's the oil that
lubricates social interaction.

By contrast, Western culture by and large is not only mostly ignorant
of manners and proprietary, but we made a conscious decision to
discard all of it entirely.

I too have come into contact with many cultures other than
my own. The only one that goes out of it's way to be rude as a matter of
course is the Caucasian. Food for thought.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:21:06 -0600
 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
 volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote:
 [snip]
  Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic
  this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a
  member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
  constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
 
 
  in that case Alan certainly is at the very top.
 
  He is one of maybe three posters where I read every mail - and one
  of a handful I have a hard time to disagree with. Same for Neil
  Bothwick. Just to name two that rank very highly on my privat list
  of good gentoo-user citizens.
 
  Because both know what they are talking about. Something that is
  very rare.

 I'm not saying otherwise. I'm just saying that asking for how long
 someone has been around to determine his place in the pecking
 order it's laughable.

 Just for the record, and although I'm a systemd user and supporter, I
 don't agree with many of the things 微蔡 said, and I certainly don't
 agree with the way he said them.

 But still for Alan to ask for how long he has been on the list to
 undermine his point of view, I think is laughable at the best, and
 cheap at the worst.

 Now is the correct time to point out that you misinterpreted my post. I
 didn't say so earlier for the simple reason that (in my world at least)
 that always seems to pour gasoline on fires.

 The intent was for 微蔡 to respond then I could point out that I felt
 him coming in here brand new and making comments of haters and so on
 was highly inappropriate and considered rude in almost all human
 cultures. It is true that longevity doesn't buy much, but it is also
 true that people in a group or community do have to establish at least
 *some* street cred first. Sans that, we have little more than
 mob-chaos.

I don't agree with that. It's a technical list, so the technical
arguments should be the only ones that matter, no matter who says them
or (to a certain degree) how they say them.

I didn't say anything about the members of the list responding to 微蔡
on at least one technical ground; yours was the first message I saw
that had not even a hint of a technical argument, but only a call for
proof of seniority. I felt that needed to be called out, because (IMO)
it serves no purpose and alienates users, specially new ones that feel
that they don't belong to a non-existing club.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Volker Armin Hemmann

Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡:
 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：
 
  On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote:
   :)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to
   
   stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.
  
  Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for
 
 the Linux
 
  kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go
  *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going
 
 mdev,
 
  following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time
 
 (perhaps
 
  during xmas).
 
 byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.

wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep (in 
this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT THING 
to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem.

 a new
 
   kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when
   appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to
 
 recompile/reboot
 
   many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20
 
 seconds
 
   per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)
  

if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds is 
the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd.

   You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.

I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people who 
have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just wrong.

But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka 
Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as 
incompatible as possible to everybody else

(see rpm mess, gcc 2.96 and other examples)


-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

在 2012年11月11日 星期日 12:09:46，Volker Armin Hemmann 写道：
 Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡:
  在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：
 
   On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote:
:)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying to
   
stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.
  
   Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for
 
  the Linux
 
   kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go
   *BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going
 
  mdev,
 
   following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time
 
  (perhaps
 
   during xmas).
 
  byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.

 wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep (in
 this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT THING
 to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem.

  a new
 
kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when
appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to
 
  recompile/reboot
 
many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20
 
  seconds
 
per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)

 if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds is
 the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd.

  You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.

 I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people who
 have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just wrong.

sorry about that.  different sulotion is good, but  *hate* is bad. because
when you do some techical decisions ,  *hate* will lead to wrong decisions.

 But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka
 Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as
 incompatible as possible to everybody else


used to use fedora 4 years ago.  but don't want to re-subscrib to gentoo with
new maill address.  :)  BTW. Don't overthink. it's not  @redhat.com , just
fedora.


 (see rpm mess, gcc 2.96 and other examples)
--
 __
 gentoo rocks 
 --
\   ^__^
 \  (oo)\___
(__)\   )\/\
||w |
|| ||


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Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Jorge Almeida

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 11:09 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann
volkerar...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡:
 在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：

 byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.



   You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.

This individual who writes to an English language list signing only with
Chinese characters has no idea about what community means.  In many years of
reading this list, I can't recall any intervention that even approaches this
sewerish vomit. I suppose that any list is bound to attract some troll sooner
or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the
same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?


 But what to expect from someone with a 'fedora' email adress. Fedora aka
 Redhat aka acting obnoxoius and pushing sub par solutions or try to be as
 incompatible as possible to everybody else

Right. And what to expect from someone who boasts he can learn anything I
want very very fast (http://www.linkedin.com/in/microcai) and become (sic) a
master of UNIX very soon, an expert of all kinds with master knowledge
after self-learning (sic) Linux 3 years ago? Yet, he couldn't spend one hour
learning good manners and another one learning English.

Cheers


Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread pk

On 2012-11-11 08:33, 微蔡 wrote:

byebye haters . Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.

Ah, instead of a rational explanation of what kind of problem systemd
solves for me you conclude: I'm a hater?... Well, I do hate solutions
looking for problems to solve, especially where there are none to solve,
and especially being forced into using them. So, I conclude: The
community doesn't need people like YOU!

Then find something to boost the BIOS. Yeah , UEFI goes out, and you
say: BIOS is fine with me , I don't need UEFI.

I'm running UEFI here (which runs on top of BIOS) on two motherboards.
If you think UEFI replaces BIOS, research it[1][2]. Yes, it's intended
to replace BIOS sometime (most likely very far) in the future.

[1]:http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96985-demystifying-uefi-the-long-overdue-bios-replacement
[2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI

For the record, I have bought equipment that can be made compatible with
coreboot, which I intend to install when I can find the time. coreboot
is a true BIOS replacement (basically it focuses on just initialising
the hardware and let payloads setup whatever services are needed).
Solving the BIOS problem permanently and with technical elegance. So
yes, I will replace UEFI/BIOS sometime in the future...

You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.

Hm... maybe you're paid by some Linux hate company to destroy it from
within (also known as astroturfer)? I see you have a fedora mail
address so why are you here on a Gentoo-list? Trying to push an
agenda/preach?

PS. I used to think Redhat was a really good open source citizen (I
even used their distro in the late 90'ies), and they still are in some
respects, but forcing, in my eyes, inferior technology onto the Linux
world is not ok, IMO.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Neil Bothwick

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 20:03:33 +0800, 微蔡 wrote:

 sorry about that.  different sulotion is good, but  *hate* is bad.
 because when you do some techical decisions ,  *hate* will lead to
 wrong decisions.

Which is why we were doing fine here until *you* introduced hate into the
thread.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

WinErr 00D: Window closed - Do not look outside


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Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Volker Armin Hemmann

Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 20:03:33 schrieb 微蔡:
 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 12:09:46，Volker Armin Hemmann 写道：
 
  Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 15:33:15 schrieb 微蔡:
   在 2012年11月10日 星期六 20:56:45，pk 写道：
   
On 2012-11-10 03:03, walt wrote:
 :)  systemd is coming whether you or I like it or not so I'm trying
 :to
 
 stay a bit ahead of the tsunami, that's all.

Yes, systemd may be coming and may even become mandatory for
   
   the Linux
   
kernel (given it's marriage with udev). when that comes, I'd rather go
*BSD or even Windows for that matter. The current plan is going
   
   mdev,
   
following Walter Dnes fine example, when I can find the time
   
   (perhaps
   
during xmas).
   
   byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.
  
  wrong, it does need people like him. Following one 'messiah' like sheep
  (in
  this case Poettering and his pulseaudio/systemd mess) is not the RIGHT
  THING to do. There are always better solutions to a specific problem.
  
   a new
   
 kernel from Linus every morning and file kernel bug reports when
 appropriate. If I do find a kernel bug I may need to
   
   recompile/reboot
   
 many times as quickly as my machine can do it, so saving 15-20
   
   seconds
   
 per reboot cycle just feels less painful :)
  
  if you can sacr 15-20 seconds there is something else broken. 20 seconds
  is
  the overall my box needs - with most time spent in bios. Without systemd.
  
 You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.
  
  I conclude you have no idea what you are talking about. Attacking people
  who have other NEEDS than you and so use a different SOLUTION is just
  wrong.
 sorry about that.  different sulotion is good, but  *hate* is bad. because
 when you do some techical decisions ,  *hate* will lead to wrong decisions.

hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is 
forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot 
of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on 
everybody.

When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use 
udev without udev in the future.

Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:28:35，pk 写道：
 On 2012-11-11 08:33, 微蔡 wrote:
  byebye  haters .  Comunitiy doesn't need people like you.
 
 Ah, instead of a rational explanation of what kind of problem systemd
 solves for me you conclude: I'm a hater?... Well, I do hate solutions
 looking for problems to solve, especially where there are none to solve,
 and especially being forced into using them. So, I conclude: The
 community doesn't need people like YOU!
 
  Then find something to boost the BIOS. Yeah , UEFI goes out, and you
  say: BIOS is fine with me ,  I don't need UEFI.
 
 I'm running UEFI here (which runs on top of BIOS) on two motherboards.
 If you think UEFI replaces BIOS, research it[1][2]. Yes, it's intended
 to replace BIOS sometime (most likely very far) in the future.
 
 [1]:http://www.extremetech.com/computing/96985-demystifying-uefi-the-long-ov
 erdue-bios-replacement [2]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFI
 
 For the record, I have bought equipment that can be made compatible with
 coreboot, which I intend to install when I can find the time. coreboot
 is a true BIOS replacement (basically it focuses on just initialising
 the hardware and let payloads setup whatever services are needed).
 Solving the BIOS problem permanently and with technical elegance. So
 yes, I will replace UEFI/BIOS sometime in the future...
 
  You maybe paid by some Linux hate company to express like this.
 
 Hm... maybe you're paid by some Linux hate company to destroy it from
 within (also known as astroturfer)? I see you have a fedora mail
 address so why are you here on a Gentoo-list? Trying to push an
 agenda/preach?
 
 PS. I used to think Redhat was a really good open source citizen (I
 even used their distro in the late 90'ies), and they still are in some
 respects, but forcing, in my eyes, inferior technology onto the Linux
 world is not ok, IMO.

ok , then why hate systemd ? you seems to hate systemd with no reason.

BTW: I don't work for Red Hat. We are behinde the Wall .  we work day and 
night for apple. even that, I don't have the so called best job in china.

 
 Best regards
 
 Peter K
-- 
 __ 
 gentoo rocks 
 -- 
\   ^__^
 \  (oo)\___
(__)\   )\/\
||w |
|| ||

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
 
 hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is 
 forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A lot 
 of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced on 
 everybody.
 
 When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could use 
 udev without [systemd] in the future.
 
 Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
 
 -- 
 #163933

-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
  hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is
  forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction. A
  lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is forced
  on everybody.
  
  When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could
  use udev without [systemd] in the future.
  
  Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.

obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev 
seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.

-- 
 __ 
 gentoo rocks 
 -- 
\   ^__^
 \  (oo)\___
(__)\   )\/\
||w |
|| ||

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread pk

On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote:

 or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the
 same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?

Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't
intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and
for that I apologise.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread pk

On 2012-11-11 13:52, 微蔡 wrote:

 ok , then why hate systemd ? you seems to hate systemd with no reason.

This is my last reply to this thread. I dislike systemd, for the reasons
I've already stated. Please re-read my responses if you want to know why
I dislike systemd. What I do _hate_ is being forced into using something
I don't want so I will look for solutions elsewhere, if need be.

Best regards

Peter K

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Jorge Almeida

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk pete...@coolmail.se wrote:
 On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote:

 or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of the
 same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?

 Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't
 intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and
 for that I apologise.

You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I shall
not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of someone who
thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go away.

Best regards

Jorge Almeida

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Volker Armin Hemmann

Am Sonntag, 11. November 2012, 21:32:41 schrieb 微蔡:
 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
 
  On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
   hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't want is
   forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a valid reaction.
   A
   lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or systemd. Now it is
   forced
   on everybody.
   
   When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course, one could
   use udev without [systemd] in the future.
   
   Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
 
 obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev
 seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.

hey, you already built it and have it laying around. And all that other stuff 
that we are forcing upon you wants it anyway - so why don't you use it? In 12 
month you have to anyway...

-- 
#163933

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:59:50，Jorge Almeida 写道：
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk pete...@coolmail.se wrote:
  On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote:
  or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a product of
  the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?
  
  Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't
  intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking and
  for that I apologise.
 
 You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I shall
 not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of someone
 who thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go
 away.

You over reacted.


 
 Best regards
 
 Jorge Almeida
-- 
 __ 
 gentoo rocks 
 -- 
\   ^__^
 \  (oo)\___
(__)\   )\/\
||w |
|| ||

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Pandu Poluan

On Nov 11, 2012 9:22 PM, 微蔡 micro...@fedoraproject.org wrote:

 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 13:59:50，Jorge Almeida 写道：
  On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:38 PM, pk pete...@coolmail.se wrote:
   On 2012-11-11 13:24, Jorge Almeida wrote:
   or later, but isn't it a nice coincidence that this perl is a
product of
   the same totalitarian mindset that is determined to poison Linux?
  
   Can't we just calm down and try to be reasonably nice? I really didn't
   intend to start a flame war here... I just reacted without thinking
and
   for that I apologise.
 
  You don't have anything to apologise for, you didn't offend anyone. I
shall
  not apologise for reacting in strong terms to the intervention of
someone
  who thinks he is entitled to tell people who don't share his fancy to go
  away.

 You over reacted.


No, it was you ('you' here referring to microcai/微蔡) who first trolled.

Everyone tends to react very strongly to trolls. And shills.

Read again your posting. You used words like 'byebye hater' and even went
out your way of accusing someone of being paid to hate something...

... yet you didn't post any tech points at all!

I was often at odds with Canek, and the discussion sometimes got heated,
but we keep countering with tech stuffs, codes, and many tech (edge) cases.

You, instead, did an ad hominem without debating technical merits. So,
don't blame people doing ad hominem attacks to you in reciprocal.

Rgds,
--

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800
微蔡 micro...@fedoraproject.org wrote:

 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
  On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
  wrote:
   hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't
   want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a
   valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or
   systemd. Now it is forced on everybody.
   
   When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course,
   one could use udev without [systemd] in the future.
   
   Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.
 
 obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev 
 seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.
 

Say Dude, 

I have a question (well, two actually)

My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years.

What's your name, and how long have you been around?

Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
meritocracy.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Neil Bothwick

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

 Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
 meritocracy.

I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts.

Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. Its the transition thats
troublesome. - Isaac Asimov


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

Neil Bothwick wrote:
 On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

 Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
 meritocracy.
 I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts.

 Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P



I'm worried about where I fall on this pecking order thingy.  Do we
really have one of those?  o-O

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how 
you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 21:32:41 +0800
 微蔡 micro...@fedoraproject.org wrote:

 在 2012年11月11日 星期日 07:22:41，Bruce Hill 写道：
  On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 01:49:03PM +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
  wrote:
   hate is a natural reaction if something you don't need and don't
   want is forced upon you. If it is also based on lies, hate is a
   valid reaction. A lot of people don't need nor want pulseaudio or
   systemd. Now it is forced on everybody.
  
   When systemd devs took over udev, one was told that of course,
   one could use udev without [systemd] in the future.
  
   Now they are talking about making udev systemd only.

 obsolutly nonsense. what they remove , is the ability to build udev
 seperately. udev can still be used without systemd.


 Say Dude,

 I have a question (well, two actually)

 My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years.

 What's your name, and how long have you been around?

 Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
 meritocracy.

Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic
this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a
member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.

IMO, the most active users of this lists usually fail in at least two
of those three, sometimes all of them. Unfortunately, I don't think I
have done better. I suscribed to this lists more than eight years ago;
I stopped asking for help here just a few months later. Which is
easily explained by people like you that believe that being around
longer somehow gives more merit and that there is a pecking order.

I was under the impression that, being all of us Gentoo users, we were
equals, although some of us know less about some things and some
others know more about some other things. Hence the smart, mature, and
polite exchange of ideas. I didn't know this was a pissing contest.

This is a technical help list, related to the Gentoo Linux
distribution. Please, don't try to pull rank in here; you just look
bad, and at least I would laugh at the futility of it. Even more
considering I've been around longer:

http://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-user@gentoo.org/msg35368.html

Mmmh. Maybe I've been around even longer than 8 years. But, who the fuck cares?

It's completely relevant.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 00:03:38 +
Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote:

 On Mon, 12 Nov 2012 01:33:21 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
 
  Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this
  here meritocracy.
 
 I think the OP has already done that with his previous posts.
 
 Or are you worried that he's after your attitude stripes? :P
 
 

looking for a chance to stomp both feet actually :-)

haven't done that in a while, I'm feeling the withdrawals...

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
 It's completely relevant.

I meant irrelevant, of course.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:24:32 -0600
Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:

 Which is
 easily explained by people like you that believe that being around
 longer somehow gives more merit and that there is a pecking order.


slow down there a little bit please

I don't really think it's me you're riled up at.





-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 06:24:32PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
  Say Dude,
 
  I have a question (well, two actually)
 
  My name is Alan and I've been subscribed on this list for 7 years.
 
  What's your name, and how long have you been around?
 
  Just trying to establish your place in the pecking order in this here
  meritocracy.
 
 Seniority != meritocracy. And I don't know how much meritocratic
 this list could be, since it is a users lists. The most merit a
 member of this list can get is to give technically acurate,
 constructive, and polite help for those users asking for it.
 
 IMO, the most active users of this lists usually fail in at least two
 of those three, sometimes all of them. Unfortunately, I don't think I
 have done better. I suscribed to this lists more than eight years ago;
 I stopped asking for help here just a few months later. Which is
 easily explained by people like you that believe that being around
 longer somehow gives more merit and that there is a pecking order.
 
 I was under the impression that, being all of us Gentoo users, we were
 equals, although some of us know less about some things and some
 others know more about some other things. Hence the smart, mature, and
 polite exchange of ideas. I didn't know this was a pissing contest.
 
 This is a technical help list, related to the Gentoo Linux
 distribution. Please, don't try to pull rank in here; you just look
 bad, and at least I would laugh at the futility of it. Even more
 considering I've been around longer:
 
 http://www.mail-archive.com/gentoo-user@gentoo.org/msg35368.html
 
 Mmmh. Maybe I've been around even longer than 8 years. But, who the
 censored cares?
 
 It's completely relevant.
 
 Regards.
 -- 
 Canek Peláez Valdés
 Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
 Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky.

Over the last 9 years I've subscribed/unsubscribed to a good number of lists.
The first such abuse of others was A.O.L.S. -- yes, you just look bad, real
bad.

There is one LUG to which I'm subscribed, which is still good for support and
edification of others. Since I (re)joined this list on Oct 21, it appears that
only 3 messages have been of enough technical merit for saving.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 18:24:32 -0600
 Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote:

 Which is
 easily explained by people like you that believe that being around
 longer somehow gives more merit and that there is a pecking order.


 slow down there a little bit please

 I don't really think it's me you're riled up at.

I said people like you. You were the one asking how long have you
been around to someone in order to establish [his] place in the
pecking order (your quote, almost word for word). I know you were not
even in the list back there (as has been established, I have been here
longer).

But yout post was of the same kind. Hence, people like you.

Regards.
--
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Bruce Hill
da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
[snip]
 Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky.

I try not to use profanity most of the time. In this particular case,
I believe it was appropriate since, really, who the FUCK cares if I
have been suscribed or not to a list for more years than someone else.

I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:14:29PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Bruce Hill
 da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
 [snip]
  Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky.
 
 I try not to use profanity most of the time. In this particular case,
 I believe it was appropriate since, really, who the censored cares if I
 have been suscribed or not to a list for more years than someone else.
 
 I hope it doesn't offend anyone. That was not (nor is) the intention.
 
 Regards.
 -- 
 Canek Peláez Valdés
 Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
 Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

It offends me.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill
da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
[snip]
 It offends me.

That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I
suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you
probably would get offended a lot.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Peter Humphrey

On Sunday 11 November 2012 12:28:35 pk wrote:

 ... Well, I do hate solutions looking for problems to solve,

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you thought about lasers?

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, 11 Nov 2012 19:06:37 -0600
Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:

 Other than your use of profanity, that post was worth making a sticky.
 
 Over the last 9 years I've subscribed/unsubscribed to a good number
 of lists. The first such abuse of others was A.O.L.S. -- yes, you
 just look bad, real bad.
 
 There is one LUG to which I'm subscribed, which is still good for
 support and edification of others. Since I (re)joined this list on
 Oct 21, it appears that only 3 messages have been of enough technical
 merit for saving.


FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it
happens.

Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they
usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too:

In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking
Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on.

Stick around, this list is worth the effort.


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
 In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking
 Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on.

Oh, really? Didn't get the memo. I suppose all my machines (laptops,
desktops, servers and media center) running with Gentoo+systemd (and
what is more, *without* OpenRC) are a fidget of my imagination.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill
 da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
 [snip]
 It offends me.
 That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I
 suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you
 probably would get offended a lot.

 Regards.


I happen to know Bruce.  I don't just mean to see his posts here but I
have actually met him in person, in real life, eyeball to eyeball and
more than once and over several years at that.  I understand why it
offends him since I know him but most likely he won't say it because,
well, he is a better person than most.  So, I'll explain it as best as I
can for you.

Bruce is a Christian, as am I.  You ever see me post profanity like
that?  I bet you haven't seen him post any either.  You ever wonder
why?  I do my very best to be respectful, even if someone can't or won't
do the same for me.  Thing is, you don't just make yourself look bad
when you use that kind of language, you make everyone else here look bad
too.  We, as in anyone on this list, may disagree on things at times but
there is no need for bad language nor should it happen either.  It is
uncalled for to say it lightly.  Pointing to other bad behaviour is no
excuse either.  I'm not a member of the kernel mailing list nor do I
want to be.  Their reputation precedes them on that one. 

Several years ago, the -dev mailing list was a sewer of a place to be. 
It gave Gentoo a very bad reputation and was talked about all over the
place.  Back then, I used Gentoo but by no means was I proud of the way
the people treated each other on -dev.  I had no reason to be either. 
There are occasional exceptions to this but for the most part, I am
proud of what Gentoo has become.  How it has fixed its reputation on its
own.  I really hope -user is not going to have to go through the same
thing -dev did.  I hope -user is not going to turn into what -dev was a
few years ago.  One thing for sure, I'm not going to take it there.  I
hope others will join me on this one.

Why not try this, treat others as you would like to be treated.  Some of
us, don't like the profanity and I include myself in that.  As you said,
this is a PUBLIC mailing list.  That means anything we do is seen by
others.  We should ALL remember that.  If we don't, we will be talked
about like we was a few years ago when -dev was so bad but this time it
will be -user. 

If you are not a religious person, then fine, some of us are.  It
doesn't mean we can't still respect each other and be a better place
than the LKML. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how 
you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
 If you are not a religious person, then fine, some of us are.  It
 doesn't mean we can't still respect each other and be a better place
 than the LKML.

I'm atheists, and I don't see any relation between being or not a
religious person, using profanity, or that we respect each other. The
three of them are orthogonal, I think.

I try to respect every member of this list. To me, that doesn't have
anything to do with using profanity, nor the other way around: I've
seen a LOT of unrespectful behaviour by many members of the lists, who
didn't use profanity at all.

I believe is shallow and a little silly to equate being respectful
to not use profanity. As such, I will continue to use profanity from
time to time when I believe is the proper response (as it was in this
case).

If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever
course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself
just to placate the sensibilities of someone.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

2012-11-11 Thread Keith Dart

Re
509F99F3.7060405@coolmail.se509F99F3.7060405@coolmail.se2592463.C9mGjqLMLj@gentook7k1hn$ce6$1...@ger.gmane.org,
Peter Humphrey said:
 Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you thought about lasers?

Light sabers are the future, dude!


-- Keith


-- 

-- ~
   Keith Dart ke...@dartworks.biz
   public key: ID: 19017044
   http://www.dartworks.biz/
   =

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
 If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever
 course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself
 just to placate the sensibilities of someone. Regards. 

First time in over eight years that I have had to do this.  So sad.  It
would be so nice if you could respect the wishes of others as I am about
to do for you. 

Keep in mind, if you reply to my messages in the future, I will not see
them. 

Consider it done. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how 
you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:50:04PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill
 da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
 [snip]
  It offends me.
 
 That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I
 suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you
 probably would get offended a lot.
 
 Regards.

Seems you snipped out the part which makes you a liar; and, I quote you:

I hope it doesn't offend anyone.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 09:02:18PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
 
 I'm atheists, and I don't see any relation between being or not a
 religious person, using profanity, or that we respect each other. The
 three of them are orthogonal, I think.
 
 I try to respect every member of this list. To me, that doesn't have
 anything to do with using profanity, nor the other way around: I've
 seen a LOT of unrespectful behaviour by many members of the lists, who
 didn't use profanity at all.
 
 I believe is shallow and a little silly to equate being respectful
 to not use profanity. As such, I will continue to use profanity from
 time to time when I believe is the proper response (as it was in this
 case).
 
 If you don't like it, feel free to filter me, ignore me, or wathever
 course of action you think you should take. I will not censor myself
 just to placate the sensibilities of someone.
 
 Regards.

And I quote what you snip out of your replies now:

I hope it doesn't offend anyone.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 03:57:52AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
 
 FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it
 happens.
 
 Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they
 usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too:
 
 In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking
 Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on.
 
 Stick around, this list is worth the effort.

Dale made some good points. Whether or not one chooses to use profanity, this
list should be about supporting Gentoo users, eh?

If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we
could avoid flame wars.

But, also, there are always those who enjoy the comparison of mine is better
than yours.
-- 
Happy Penguin Computers   ')
126 Fenco Drive   ( \
Tupelo, MS 38801   ^^
supp...@happypenguincomputers.com
662-269-2706 662-205-6424
http://happypenguincomputers.com/

Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

Bruce Hill wrote:
 On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 03:57:52AM +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
 FWIW, swearing here is rare. Usually it's understandable when it
 happens.

 Threads like this current one are also rare. Unfortunately of late they
 usually involve Lennart, and that's understandable too:

 In trying to solve a general problem, Lennart has a knack for breaking
 Gentoo - this distro does not fit the general problems he works on.

 Stick around, this list is worth the effort.
 Dale made some good points. Whether or not one chooses to use profanity, this
 list should be about supporting Gentoo users, eh?

 If we also stick to helping someone with their problem, and refrain from
 replying about how bad or useless we think an app or ideal might be to us, we
 could avoid flame wars.

 But, also, there are always those who enjoy the comparison of mine is better
 than yours.

I got two things from his reply to me earlier.  First, he talks about
not offending someone then goes and does it anyway.  Second, he is going
to continue to do it even after people have asked him not to.  I don't
think I am the first person to bring up his language and/or attitude
either.  I think anyone that read his reply to me can see for themselves
who and what he is and what he will do in the future on this list.  Now
they get to decide whether to do the same as I have done.  For the first
time in over eight years, I have blacklisted a person.  That's not just
a first for this list but for anyone, anywhere. 

I just hope this corrects itself before this turns Gentoo back several
years to what was a really bad time for all of us.  Disagreement is one
thing but this is totally uncalled for. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how 
you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 11:12 PM, Bruce Hill
da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 07:50:04PM -0600, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
 On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Bruce Hill
 da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote:
 [snip]
  It offends me.

 That's too bad. In public mailing lists profanity happens a lot. I
 suggest you not to read LKML; Linus is famous for his outbursts: you
 probably would get offended a lot.

 Regards.

 Seems you snipped out the part which makes you a liar; and, I quote you:

 I hope it doesn't offend anyone.

Why does that make me a liar? I didn't wanted to offend anyone; that
was not my intention. That doesn't mean I care if it does offend
someone.

The way I see it, if my use of profanity offends you, that it's your
problem. Not mine. Doesn't mean I *wanted* to offend; it just means
that I don't *care*.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [ANNOUNCE] I like systemd now :)