Re: How much are Nxxx open?
Hi, Finally, it may be nice if Nokia may donate some devices to FSO and OpenEmbedded core team, any interest/chance about that? We will start talking soon about the N900 device program. In the meantime, having members of these projects involved and with concrete ideas will help. Being active in the maemo.org Extras is one way but it might be difficult for such projects going beyond application development and actually needing some hardware to get things done with certain guarantees. An interesting approach would be to have members of these projects submitting proposals to the Maemo Summit. It's a way to have a name linked to a concrete purpose. Feel free forwarding your proposal (or remaking your own) to your preferred developers involved in these projects. Thanks! PS: about the topic of the thread, please bear with us while we are in this weeks of launch, final release and sales start. It will be much easier to analyze how open, relicensings, replacements etc once Maemo 5 and the N900 is shipped and the community has got the chance to see all the release code and how it works in a real device. -- Quim Gil open source advocate Maemo Devices @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 14:59 +0200, ext Nicola Mfb wrote: ... 'problematic' stuff is 3d and phone parts. 3d have kernel parts open but userspace is not, phone is hopefully open enough. Overall I guess it will be Again about that, are applications able to full use opengl acceleration without using closed userspace libraries? I don't think so, because the microkernel inside SGX chip is not open, as is not the protocol that the kernel driver uses to talk with the chip. AFAIK, these parts are not open because they would reveal too much of the internals of the SGX HW. -Kimmo ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
Hi, On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 18:27 -0400, Jason Edgecombe wrote: I'm not sure how open the phone part is because they haven't come out yet. I can tell you that the non-phone predecessors are very open. There are two things that aren't open: the OpenGL video drivers and the wifi drivers. Apparently there's a bit more than that: http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages Xav ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 09:52 +0200, Xavier Bestel wrote: On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 18:27 -0400, Jason Edgecombe wrote: I'm not sure how open the phone part is because they haven't come out yet. I can tell you that the non-phone predecessors are very open. There are two things that aren't open: the OpenGL video drivers and the wifi drivers. Apparently there's a bit more than that: http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages Although it is not clear at all which of those packages are still closed in Fremantle, this looks more like a maemo 4 list. Ralph ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 10:54 +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote: On Tue, 2009-09-01 at 09:52 +0200, Xavier Bestel wrote: On Mon, 2009-08-31 at 18:27 -0400, Jason Edgecombe wrote: I'm not sure how open the phone part is because they haven't come out yet. I can tell you that the non-phone predecessors are very open. There are two things that aren't open: the OpenGL video drivers and the wifi drivers. Apparently there's a bit more than that: http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages Although it is not clear at all which of those packages are still closed in Fremantle, this looks more like a maemo 4 list. Yes, that's what Jason talked about: non-phone predecessors are very open. Xav ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Frantisek Dufkaduf...@seznam.cz wrote: Nicola Mfb wrote: [...] Bootloader on N8x0 and 770 is closed. Kernel and rootfs can be replaced but for best experience one needs to stay with Nokia released kernel versions (2.6.18, 2.6.21). Other versions boot too but not everything is working 100% since some bits are closed or never went upstream or were removed due to bit rot (dspgateway). The freerunner is going to run 2.6.31, the process to submit code upstream started and will be completed quickly. Due to 3d interaction with dri/drm kernel part, or similar other things I guess the n900 kernel will be stonith at some point, that's a bit sad. With N900 we don't know yet but hopefully the bootloader will be u-boot. That's nice, the best would be if we'll be able to update/replace u-boot, and have a way to debrick the device if something goes wrong. I found a thread where an n810 user had to pay to cold reflash its device in nokia center, I did not dig deeply on that, only was warned. Also the hardware is very similar to other OMAP3 based devices (OpenPandora, Beagleboard, Touchbook, even Palm Pre) so the chance of bit rotting is lower. Previously problematic parts (wi-fi, dsp) are more open now, new May you elaborate please? wifi is exposed normally? may we use wpa_supplicant, hostap for master mode? and about dsp, is not there a transparent alsa driver to play anything with any software or to switch connections between the gsm/umts module and mic/earpiece (about that I guess we have to wait a bit more :) ? 'problematic' stuff is 3d and phone parts. 3d have kernel parts open but userspace is not, phone is hopefully open enough. Overall I guess it will be Again about that, are applications able to full use opengl acceleration without using closed userspace libraries? perfect as a Linux hacking device if you like N900 hardware. It depends on how much the closed part is exposed and flexible, the linux on phones project needs freedom to grow. I understand the Nokia differentiation concept and think this is compatible with open hardware specs and write your alternative OS. Actually OpenMoko stopped development and support of freerunner and there are no plans for developing further devices, the important part is that after three years there is now an experienced community that is bringing to the light the linux on phones project. There is a middleware (www.freesmartphone.org) actively developed and running on several phone devices and really more complete than ofono, and there are a lot of experienced developers that for years are enjoying embedded/mobile world, and finally a lot of brainstorming about all that from common users. It would be very nice if the N900 as of it phone module may be one of the next devices that our community may support and join, that's the reason of my questions. I guess N900 may already fit most Linux geeks needs, and I think I'll buy one of it and join the maemo community anyway, but I'm just speaking about a bigger concept. The hardware is exposed by kernel in a standard way, e.g. the phone audio connections are managed by alsa while on other fakefree devices (like HTC dream) there are some closed source libraries to do that preventing the port of opensource phone stack (FSO). The oFono phone stack is open. http://lwn.net/Articles/332820/ There were an irc discussion on that, it was revealed that there is no ofono on N900, but it seems to be in the nokia todo list (I hope with N900 too) so if and when it will be ready this should help in FSO supporting it. Finally, it may be nice if Nokia may donate some devices to FSO and OpenEmbedded core team, any interest/chance about that? Thank you very much and best regards Nicola ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
Nicola Mfb wrote: I come from OpenMoko Freerunner experience, where I'm able to flash the bootloader, the logo, the kernel, the rootfs and have multiple boot option to run several linux distro on different sd partitions. There are two bootloaders, the first in NOR readonly, the second in NAND and is used as default and is flashable, so you are able to use a modern and upgradable bootloader and if something goes wrong are able to debrick it booting from NOR, making the freerunner perfect as a Linux hacking device. Bootloader on N8x0 and 770 is closed. Kernel and rootfs can be replaced but for best experience one needs to stay with Nokia released kernel versions (2.6.18, 2.6.21). Other versions boot too but not everything is working 100% since some bits are closed or never went upstream or were removed due to bit rot (dspgateway). With N900 we don't know yet but hopefully the bootloader will be u-boot. Also the hardware is very similar to other OMAP3 based devices (OpenPandora, Beagleboard, Touchbook, even Palm Pre) so the chance of bit rotting is lower. Previously problematic parts (wi-fi, dsp) are more open now, new 'problematic' stuff is 3d and phone parts. 3d have kernel parts open but userspace is not, phone is hopefully open enough. Overall I guess it will be perfect as a Linux hacking device if you like N900 hardware. The hardware is exposed by kernel in a standard way, e.g. the phone audio connections are managed by alsa while on other fakefree devices (like HTC dream) there are some closed source libraries to do that preventing the port of opensource phone stack (FSO). The oFono phone stack is open. http://lwn.net/Articles/332820/ So may someone explain what's about the N900? How much is it open? Wee need to wait a bit until first hardware gets into our hands. Do we have dmesg log already? Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
Nicola Mfb wrote: With N900 we don't know yet but hopefully the bootloader will be u-boot. That's nice, the best would be if we'll be able to update/replace u-boot, and have a way to debrick the device if something goes wrong. u-boot is just my guess, any other choice does not look sane to me, but still it can be a wrong guess. OMAP3 is designed to be unbrickable, it can boot from usb or serial or mmc directly from its boot ROM, bootloader in flash is not needed. I'm not sure how configurable is the priority list for booting (i.e. if it could be locked to load bootloader only from NAND flash) but hopefully it will by possible to bypass even the bootloader in NAND(u-boot or whatever). See also http://elinux.org/BeagleBoard#BootRom Also the hardware is very similar to other OMAP3 based devices (OpenPandora, Beagleboard, Touchbook, even Palm Pre) so the chance of bit rotting is lower. Previously problematic parts (wi-fi, dsp) are more open now, new May you elaborate please? wifi is exposed normally? In N900? Yes. N8x0 used own closed wireless stack and own closed wlan driver. Wlan driver was opened later but it needs newer kernel which lacks other stuff. See http://stlc45xx.garage.maemo.org N900 uses normal mac80211 kernel stack and the wl1251 driver is open source too. Also apart from Nokia being more open with N900 also TI is more open with OMAP3 in general (unlike with OMAP2 based N8x0) so there is more information available and bigger community overall. beagleboard.org community is quite active Again about that, are applications able to full use opengl acceleration without using closed userspace libraries? Not now. Looks like PowerVR's business model is currently not open source friendly :-) Maybe someone will write open alternative in future? http://forum.openhandhelds.org/viewtopic.php?f=14t=341 Finally, it may be nice if Nokia may donate some devices to FSO and OpenEmbedded core team, any interest/chance about that? We don't know yet about N900 device developer program but it may be useful to join maemo.org community right now and become a karma hunter ;-) For previous program check http://flors.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/n810-maemo-device-program/ http://flors.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/rewarding-community-contributors/ Also having application in Fremantle extras-devel repository might be a good idea :-) Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Frantisek Dufkaduf...@seznam.cz wrote: Nicola Mfb wrote: With N900 we don't know yet but hopefully the bootloader will be u-boot. That's nice, the best would be if we'll be able to update/replace u-boot, and have a way to debrick the device if something goes wrong. u-boot is just my guess, any other choice does not look sane to me, but still it can be a wrong guess. OMAP3 is designed to be unbrickable, it can boot from usb or serial or mmc directly from its boot ROM, bootloader in flash is not needed. I'm not sure how configurable is the priority list for booting (i.e. if it could be locked to load bootloader only from NAND flash) but hopefully it will by possible to bypass even the bootloader in NAND(u-boot or whatever). See also http://elinux.org/BeagleBoard#BootRom Very nice!, that with free u-boot (we hope) may be perfect! May you elaborate please? wifi is exposed normally? In N900? Yes. N8x0 used own closed wireless stack and own closed wlan driver. Wlan driver was opened later but it needs newer kernel which lacks other stuff. See http://stlc45xx.garage.maemo.org N900 uses normal mac80211 kernel stack and the wl1251 driver is open source too. Very nice too! Also apart from Nokia being more open with N900 also TI is more open with OMAP3 in general (unlike with OMAP2 based N8x0) so there is more information available and bigger community overall. beagleboard.org community is quite active Again about that, are applications able to full use opengl acceleration without using closed userspace libraries? Not now. Looks like PowerVR's business model is currently not open source friendly :-) Maybe someone will write open alternative in future? http://forum.openhandhelds.org/viewtopic.php?f=14t=341 Not so nice :(, I hope we have at least an X11 full 2D/XVideo accelerated driver right? Finally, it may be nice if Nokia may donate some devices to FSO and OpenEmbedded core team, any interest/chance about that? We don't know yet about N900 device developer program but it may be useful to join maemo.org community right now and become a karma hunter ;-) For previous program check http://flors.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/n810-maemo-device-program/ http://flors.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/rewarding-community-contributors/ Also having application in Fremantle extras-devel repository might be a good idea :-) I'll begin digging in that ;) Frantisek, thanks for you detailed and gentle answer, now I miss only the audio alsa/dsp part if possible. Best Regards Nicola ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
On Tue, 1 Sep 2009, Frantisek Dufka wrote: Nicola Mfb wrote: With N900 we don't know yet but hopefully the bootloader will be u-boot. That's nice, the best would be if we'll be able to update/replace u-boot, and have a way to debrick the device if something goes wrong. u-boot is just my guess, any other choice does not look sane to me, but still it can be a wrong guess. OMAP3 is designed to be unbrickable, it can boot from usb or serial or mmc directly from its boot ROM, bootloader in flash is not needed. I'm not sure how configurable is the priority list for booting (i.e. if it could be locked to load bootloader only from NAND flash) but hopefully it will by possible to bypass even the bootloader in NAND(u-boot or whatever). Boot configuration priorities are controlled through specific pins on the device, which might be hardwired on the device board to force a specific configuration. Disabling USB boot entirely from the booting sequence is possible. There might be security concerns with USB booting, but large customers, such as Nokia, may be also able to push features to the internal boot ROM that solve these issues. See OMAP34xx Wireless Technical Reference Manual (SWPU114U_FinalEPDF_08_17_2009.pdf), 26.2.3 Boot configuration for more detailed explanation. -kirma ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
How much is it open? Depends on screwdriver you use ... On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Nicola Mfbnicola@gmail.com wrote: Hi! I'm new to this community and these nice Nokia devices, and I'd like to join/contribute/develop for it and buy the upcoming N900. Before proceeding further I'd like to know a bit about its openess. Already googled but there are not much and coherent informations about that. I come from OpenMoko Freerunner experience, where I'm able to flash the bootloader, the logo, the kernel, the rootfs and have multiple boot option to run several linux distro on different sd partitions. There are two bootloaders, the first in NOR readonly, the second in NAND and is used as default and is flashable, so you are able to use a modern and upgradable bootloader and if something goes wrong are able to debrick it booting from NOR, making the freerunner perfect as a Linux hacking device. The hardware is exposed by kernel in a standard way, e.g. the phone audio connections are managed by alsa while on other fakefree devices (like HTC dream) there are some closed source libraries to do that preventing the port of opensource phone stack (FSO). So may someone explain what's about the N900? How much is it open? Thank you in advance and best regards! Nicola ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- Benoît HERVIER - http://khertan.net/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
Nicola Mfb wrote: Hi! I'm new to this community and these nice Nokia devices, and I'd like to join/contribute/develop for it and buy the upcoming N900. Before proceeding further I'd like to know a bit about its openess. Already googled but there are not much and coherent informations about that. I come from OpenMoko Freerunner experience, where I'm able to flash the bootloader, the logo, the kernel, the rootfs and have multiple boot option to run several linux distro on different sd partitions. There are two bootloaders, the first in NOR readonly, the second in NAND and is used as default and is flashable, so you are able to use a modern and upgradable bootloader and if something goes wrong are able to debrick it booting from NOR, making the freerunner perfect as a Linux hacking device. The hardware is exposed by kernel in a standard way, e.g. the phone audio connections are managed by alsa while on other fakefree devices (like HTC dream) there are some closed source libraries to do that preventing the port of opensource phone stack (FSO). So may someone explain what's about the N900? How much is it open? Thank you in advance and best regards! Hello Nicola, I'm not sure how open the phone part is because they haven't come out yet. I can tell you that the non-phone predecessors are very open. There are two things that aren't open: the OpenGL video drivers and the wifi drivers. There is a community-support linux distro called Mer that can be flashed to the N800 and N810 tablets or booted from SD card. You have the option of using a boot menu to choose which OS to boot. At one point, I have three installs of Maemo on my N800 and could chose which one to run at boot time. You can try out the freemantle development VM to see what type of phone API's are exposed. I hope this answered your questions. Sincerely, Jason ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: How much are Nxxx open?
Nicola Mfb wrote: Hi! I'm new to this community and these nice Nokia devices, and I'd like to join/contribute/develop for it and buy the upcoming N900. Before proceeding further I'd like to know a bit about its openess. Already googled but there are not much and coherent informations about that. You can also get some idea by looking at the fremantle SDK release notes as the closed source binaries are called out http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_2_release_notes/ Though closed binary does not guarantee open sourced alternatives cannot be used. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
