Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 15

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

nowing the chain of custody in detail for something like this.
Barring that, I just don't think it makes sense.  Hell, I even asked Dima
about it a little while back, but haven't heard back yet.

I think that's all pretty reasonable.  Twenty-five years of experience,
observations, paired with common sense.  No jumping to conclusions.  And
I'd still love for my suspicions to be wrong in this case.  So...I guess
Mark can just share the information he has?  He knows it's real.  He can
put my suspicions to rest, and prove me wrong.  It should be simple.  I'm
all ears.


Mark apparently doesn't know much about me, my past, or what I do.  I don't
owe him any explanations, but, since he's attacked me in public, I'm going
to comment on it here for the benefit of everyone else.

Grad school aside, I identify specimens for whoever asks, including museums
and institutions, and most of that isn't public .  A recent *public* but
unsolicited example would be this stone, published as a new Martian a few
months ago <https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=81266>.  That
specimen was listed in a Heritage auction as a Tissint individual about a
year ago
<https://fineart.ha.com/itm/meteorites/martian/presumed-tissint-martian-meteorite-martian-shergottite-tata-morocco-29-28-55-n-7-36-/a/8096-72175.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515>.
 After I let them know that the specimen was not Tissint, Heritage amended
the listing before the auction, and I'm glad to see that they sorted it out
ethically with the buyer afterwards.  Heritage had the stone analyzed, and
its description shows that the stone is *not* an olivine-phyric basalt, and
is *not* Tissint.  I've caught a number of issues like that for major
auction houses, but they almost never wind up published and identifiable
like that.  And I’m still curious about who tried to list that stone as
Tissint…

There are two problems in a large meteorite auction scheduled for next
month.  I don't want to name the auction, but you can probably figure it
out.  The specimens are 100% misidentified.  *Can you spot them? *

I don't know how many of my IDs have been analytically confirmed, but I can
say that many have been
<https://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/ashcreekzunhua.png>
(also
NWA 11889, and others).  I can't quote a correct/incorrect rate, because
it's not clear-cut; I've voiced concerns about material when I haven't been
certain that it was misrepresented -- like this Omolon.  I don't think you
can really be right or wrong if you say "I think this looks off, does
anyone have any details on it?"  Asking that should be fine in a community
like ours, where so much material gets both intentionally and
unintentionally mislabeled.  If a specimen looks weird, or wrong, or
whatever, people should be allowed to question it, and that should be
okay.  And it should also be okay to point out when obvious fakes
<https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/general-discussion-gc5/what-did-i-find-gc11/683620-tiger-tail-meteorite/page2>
surface.

Mark's only been doing meteorite-related stuff for a few years and he has
no related background.  I'd expect some mishaps from anyone in those
circumstances.  I guess as long as Mark refunds people when it happens,
like he did with John, it's not really unethical for Mark to berate anyone
who points out that he's sold misrepresented material?  I don't understand
it, but it won't stop me.  I have no qualms about publicly posting any
other bad IDs I see, and insults he throws out, so that you all can see the
kind of guy he is, too.

I suppose it's not really that simple, because some misrepresented material
is still going to get into circulation, which is a problem...  Maybe some
of the more experienced members in the Global Meteorite Association (GMA)
can help Mark sort it out?  I don't know.  What's supposed to happen with
NWA 14743 now?  I'm seeing active listings of what looks to me like at
least two different meteorites, sold listings for both going back at least
a year...pieces for sale on websites like www.meteorites-for-sale.com, sold
pieces there...  It looks like a real headache.  I wouldn't know where to
begin.

As Mendy said, caveat emptor.  Always.  IMCA, GMA, me, doesn't matter.

Jason










On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 7:50 PM Mark Lyon  wrote:

> Jason Humboldt,
>
> You just have to learn to tune out Jason utas.  He has been doing this for
> years.  He  isnt going to change.  You should have seen some of the
> messages he sent me before i blocked him.  The first time I met him he went
> in my display room in tucson and started complaining about me selling taza
> (nwa 859) because it was his dad's classification. Then he claimed he was
> just using it as an example because he thought he overheard me attacking
> dustin Dickens (a friend of mine) for pairing meteorites.  More recently,
> he made damaging accusations about omolon specimens actually being brahin.
> 

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 15

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

ink
one is wrong, then the other should be, too.  I don't have an issue with
folks doing that as long as there's no doubt that the ID is correct, but
I'm also not the one attacking someone else for doing it. Case in point: I
agree that your large eucrite looks to be paired with Jikharra 001.  But,
if you're going to play that card, and post it as "likely paired" on your
website, it should be fine for Benzaki to say the same thing about his CK /
NWA 15758 if he believes it.  Right?  If not, you're holding Benzaki to a
higher standard than yourself.

By now, you've had some time to look into this.  Did you ask for photos of
Benzaki's CK?  Did you figure out if his lot is from the same area as
yours?  From the same finder?  Do they look like the same material?  Do you
think they're paired?  What is the real TKW of NWA 15758?  Is it just the
~1 kg in the Bulletin?  How much more is out there?  None?  Just this one
lot?  More?

You asked me what I would do.  If it were my meteorite, I'd want to know.
And I wouldn't want to hide that information from potential buyers.  I
don't think that would be honest.

If it turned out that Benzaki was right about the pairing, you attacked him
for correctly labeling a meteorite.  I'd say you should probably apologize
to him.

Sorry this got so long.

Jason

On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 8:03 PM humboldt bay jay 
wrote:

> I am sending this again as I realized I only replied to you and not the
> list as well.  This turns out good for me because it offers a chance to
> better compose my thoughts.  I was running errands when I sent the first
> email.  To begin again:
>
> Jason,
> I see what you are saying, and it is a reasonable point but I disagree.
> These are the reasons:
>
> 1. I can elaborate that "since you never contacted me" means I would have
> been happy to provide assistance and the name if the vendor would have done
> so with some images of supporting information such as sourcing from the
> same finder.
>
> 2. There is a clear difference between multi ton finds that have ample
> documentation and a kilo find that has had little publicity.  Even then I
> agree that best practices are to communicate leading me to
>
> 3. Point out that you were part of one of my conversations about this in
> regard to the likely Jikharra specimen you are referencing.  You stated
> that "The Jikharra’s obviously that."  You are also well aware that I am
> not selling any of the obviously Jikharra until my own classification is
> approved because you were part of the discussion.
>
> 4. You don't actually know where I sourced my material because you did not
> ask.  For example the metbul mentioned many kilograms traded as Ghadamis
> that was not in Marcin's possession.  Since I bought and traded Ghadamis
> before the name HaH 346 was approved, how do you think I should have
> handled the situation differently?
>
> 5. In regards to nwa 869 the following quote is from the metbul "At least
> 2 metric tons of material comprising thousands of individuals has been sold
> under the name NWA 869 in the market places of Morocco and around the
> world." along with the appropriate caveats due to its abundance- "Scientists
> are advised to confirm the classification of any specimens they obtain
> before publishing results under this name."   So again I do not feel you
> are making an apples to apples comparison with your critique of my logic.
>
> We all obviously respect your encyclopedic understanding of meteorites so
> perhaps you can share with us your framework for best practices in these
> situations.
>
> Best regards,
> Jason
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 1:21 PM Jason Utas  wrote:
>
>> Hello Jason,
>> To be consistent, you should remove the HaH 346 and NWA 869 specimens you
>> have listed for sale on your website.  Those classifications were submitted
>> by other dealers; your stones are unclassified individuals from DCAs with
>> no evidence of their find locations, etc.
>> On your "featured" page, you also have a specimen listed as a "likely
>> Jakharra 001 Pairing."  Similar issues aside, relying on that standard, it
>> should be okay for Benzaki Mohamed to call his specimens "likely NWA 15758
>> pairings."
>> Regards,
>> Jason
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 7:09 AM humboldt bay jay via Meteorite-list <
>> meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Benzaki Mohamed for swiftly reaching out to me.  I appreciate
>>> your attention to this matter.  All is good.
>>> Best regards to everyone,
>>> Jason Whitcomb
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 10:29 PM <
>>> meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>&

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 15

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Hello Jason,
To be consistent, you should remove the HaH 346 and NWA 869 specimens you
have listed for sale on your website.  Those classifications were submitted
by other dealers; your stones are unclassified individuals from DCAs with
no evidence of their find locations, etc.
On your "featured" page, you also have a specimen listed as a "likely
Jakharra 001 Pairing."  Similar issues aside, relying on that standard, it
should be okay for Benzaki Mohamed to call his specimens "likely NWA 15758
pairings."
Regards,
Jason

On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 7:09 AM humboldt bay jay via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Thank you Benzaki Mohamed for swiftly reaching out to me.  I appreciate
> your attention to this matter.  All is good.
> Best regards to everyone,
> Jason Whitcomb
>
> On Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 10:29 PM <
> meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>> Send Meteorite-list mailing list submissions to
>> meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> meteorite-list-ow...@meteoritecentral.com
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Meteorite-list digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>1. Meteorite Picture of the Day (p...@tucsonmeteorites.com)
>>2. Re: Very sad news (Ruben Garcia)
>>3. Re: Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 14 (humboldt bay jay)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2024 00:35:54 -0700
>> From: 
>> To: 
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
>> Message-ID: 
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>>
>> Thursday, Mar 14 2024 Meteorite Picture of the Day: HAH 346
>>
>> Contributed by: J?r?me de Creymer
>>
>> http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=03/14/2024
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 16:17:06 -0700
>> From: Ruben Garcia 
>> To: bernd.pa...@paulinet.de
>> Cc: Meteorite Mailing List 
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Very sad news
>> Message-ID:
>> > jxhjti60uojwdgvdoreuf4jfjd7paim...@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Hi Bernd,
>>
>> I've know John for a very long time. This is very sad indeed. Thank you
>> for
>> posting this.
>>
>> Ruben Garcia
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 4:03?PM bernd.pauli--- via Meteorite-list <
>> meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear List,
>> >
>> > It is my sad duty to inform you that John Blennert has passed away :-(
>> >
>> > John, rest in peace!
>> >
>> > Bernd
>> > __
>> > Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> https://pairlist2.pair.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/attachments/20240313/55acab68/attachment-0001.htm
>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2024 22:53:43 -0700
>> From: humboldt bay jay 
>> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 261, Issue 14
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> caat9en4eebof8m_4p5anuoo9wo9+_qqv1e9-1mbjdnj6yvh...@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Benzaki Mohamed,
>> Since you have never reached out to me about my classification, Nwa 15758
>> CK6, I politely request that you do not use this name. I invested time and
>> resources into having it analyzed and if you wish to sell your material as
>> a named meteorite I suggest you do the same. Thank you in advance.
>> Jason
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 10:29?PM <
>> meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Send Meteorite-list mailing list submissions to
>> > meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > https://pairlist2.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > meteorite-list-ow...@meteoritecentral.com
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Meteorite-list digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >1. Meteorite Picture of the Day (p...@tucsonmeteorites.com)
>> >2. Meteorite carbon (Benzaki Mohamed)
>> >3. Very sad news (bernd.pa...@paulinet.de)
>> >4. Claims of Extrasolar Spherules from Pacific Ocean Site CNEOS
>> >   2014-01-08 

Re: [meteorite-list] Another in the curious tektite series

[jason utas via Meteorite-list]

Those are skin splits, not contacts.  Its surface had cooled to form a
skin, interior was still molten / plastic.  See Nininger & Huss (1967):

https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.157.3784.61

http://www.tektites.co.uk/stretch.html



On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 9:19 AM Thomas Harris iMac via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> I always enjoy the irregular shapes in tektites because the standard
> dumbbells, teardrops and spheroids are exactly that, standard.
>
> This is a 5 cm irregular or fragment-form Australasian tektite from Viet
> Nam with what appears to have smeared indentations from low speed
> contact(s), presumedly with other equally soft-skinned tektites.  This is
> problematic because the through-body re-heating above glass temperature and
> plastic deformation don’t happen with aerodynamic heating and ablation.  At
> the very least the skin of this tektite seems to have been reheated after
> solidification, retaining fine surface texture outside of the smear
> channels.  If this is ascent-phase after solidification, that is a large
> displacement from the source location for collision with multiple other
> tektites.  If this is descent-phase, why are tektites on converging
> trajectories after the better part of an hour or more to solidify before
> reentry?
>
> The highly ‘platy' coarse morphology relative to any spheroidal protomorph
> makes the formative process quite puzzling.
>
> When the Indochina region is considered as probable source for this distal
> impact ejecta glass, it directly disagrees with a first principles
> suborbital analysis of ablated tektites, which shows the source region must
> like across eastern North America per Harris (2022) and Davias, Harris
> (2022).
>
> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FqenhEGuGrY
>
>
> Thomas “Tim” Harris
> Email: thsharr...@icloud.com
> Engineering Scientist
>
> Brooklyn NY USA
> 718 344 6016
>
> Web:
> Google Scholar T. H. S. Harris
> 
> Research Gate 
>
>
> Cintos.org  Survey: US LiDAR
> by M. E. Davias
> https://cbaysurvey.cintos.org
>
>
>
> __
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Re: [meteorite-list] Modern Burnishing

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

The photo of Haig shows concave depressions, not bulbous lumps. It’s not
good photo perspective.

The closest visual match to this stone would be something like Patos de
Minas (the octahedrite), but comparing a relatively fresh desert stone with
fusion crust — to a fissured, decomposing iron from a much more wet climate
doesn’t make sense.

Consensus when this NWA surfaced on Facebook was that it was a broken
oriented stone, ‘creatively’ altered to disguise the damage.

Without a real forensic assessment, I would not feel at all comfortable
calling it natural.  It may technically be “art.”  I don’t think the
bidders in these auctions know or care either way.

Jason

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:42 PM Paul Gessler via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Want everyone's opinion / on this highly unusual morphology.
> I don't doubt it is a real meteorite at all just that one side looks
> altered
> or is HUGELY UNIQUE
> Christies is currently selling it and gives a cryptic explanation for its
> shape as "Modern burnishing"
> What the hell does that mean exactly?
> they also mention it could be naturally ventifacted.???
>
> Either way I have never seen anything quite like it in the meteorite world.
>
> Anyone else have an explanation ... please chime in on this.
>
>
> https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/deep-impact-lunar-rare-meteorites/evoking-sculpture-ken-price-exotic-meteorite-morphology-nwa-13203-38/82821
>
> Thanks
> Paul Gessler
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Adam,
Since you keep suggesting that it was Greg's doing, and not yours...

"The Hupé Collection" self-paired a medium and a fine octahedrite.
Different bandwidths, different structures, different types of
inclusions.  One was a fresh, sculpted, fusion-crusted iron.  The
other was a round, weathered lump.  The photos on ebay were enough to
tell they were different.  "The Hupé Collection" said they were the
same.

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=17885

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=33524

These mistakes are surfacing on the POD, from well known collectors who
*trusted you.*  With "Hupé Collection" labels that are *wrong.*

That is indefensible.

You never even reached out to Bernd and the other buyers to let them
know of the mistake, after you knew of it?  Or did Bernd miss your
email?

In response, you're "accusing me" of...making 100% certain that my
samples were what they were, via SEM.  Most of the material that I
didn't keep went to labs, and they were presumably grateful to get NWA
7034 at less than a third of what other sellers were charging.

None of my material was misrepresented.  Not one milligram.

Pointing out that I *got it right* isn't exactly a good rebuttal.
Especially when you're okay with other scientists doing nothing more
than *eyeballing* your own stones to claim they're paired.  I
literally did more to verify my NWA 7034 than you did to verify your
NWA 1110.

Oh, and the Nom. Com. essentially did away with type specimen
requirements for paired DCA meteorites some time ago.

Read the rules.  Section 7.1 (g).

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/docs/nc-guidelines.pdf

If you want to get a new piece of [anything paired] approved, all you
need is data.  No type specimen is required.

You say that self-pairing is bad.  I point out that you messed it up.
In response, you point out that I paired some material correctly, as
though it's somehow the same or worse.  And you push "rules" that
no one follows -- and that don't even exist.

It's still -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting

Jason


On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 7:30 PM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
> Spoken by a true pioneer in self-pairing and piggy-backing,
>
> Anybody for any self-paired and piggy-backed Black Beauty?
>
>
>
>
> On 6/25/2018 1:40 AM, Jason Utas via Meteorite-list wrote:
>
> Please note that the slice pictured is NWA 3200, not NWA 860. Someone made a
> mistake and “self-paired” two completely different iron meteorites.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 1:00 AM Paul Swartz via Meteorite-list
>  wrote:
>>
>> Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: NWA 860
>>
>> Contributed by: Bernd Pauli
>>
>> http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=06/24/2018
>> __
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>
>
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Please note that the slice pictured is NWA 3200, not NWA 860. Someone made
a mistake and “self-paired” two completely different iron meteorites.

Jason


On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 1:00 AM Paul Swartz via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: NWA 860
>
> Contributed by: Bernd Pauli
>
> http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=06/24/2018
> __
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

We've had this discussion before, Adam.  You're gaslighting.

The pairing rules are very clear and can be read in section 4.2 (a) and (b)
of this link: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/docs/nc-guidelines.pdf

Key statements:
1) "a single (collective) name may be given in cases where fragments fit
together or similar-looking fragments are found within a few meters of each
other"
2) "Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense collection areas may
be considered paired with each other or with another formally named
meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence, including geographic data that
are consistent with the meteorites being part of a single fall."

When you buy a bag of "NWA 1110" from a dealer in Morocco, you have no idea
where they're from or if they were actually picked up in the same place.
Every single fragment needs to get its own NWA number and needs to be
analyzed.  Type specimen, etc.  Unless the fragments physically fit
together and/or you have an in-situ photo showing them sitting together on
the ground, you're breaking Nomenclature Committee guidelines.

You can't just "pair" a pile of stones by looking at them, or by having
someone else look at them.  You can have them all analyzed and show that
they're internally *identical.*  Doesn't matter.  They all need their own
NWA numbers and type specimens.

And don't just think this applies only to planetaries.  You bought a 20
kilogram sack of "NWA 869?"  Every single stone needs to be cut and
analyzed if you're going to sell it as NWA 869.  Except...you can't even do
that.  Even if they are all analyzed and all fall in the range of L3.8-6,
like NWA 869, each fragment will still need its own NWA number because you
still don't have any proof of where they were found.

Those are the rules, and you've broken just as many of them as anyone
else.  These are guidelines written for scientists, by scientists.  This is
how stones are recovered and dealt with in places like Antarctica.  Every
detail of a stone's recovery is meticulously recorded, and every
(sub-gram!) fragment is analyzed.  The only people I know who have followed
such guidelines are the hunters in DCAs like Skip Wilson, who actually
record every single stone they find.

You -- and every other collector and dealer -- have played by different
rules.  Even the IMCA has bought into a different set of rules that protect
dealer interests: they say that you can't use "another meteorite dealer's
NWA number," but once you get a stone analyzed, you're allowed to
"self-pair" anything you want to that analysis, essentially without
scrutiny.  This has led to a fair amount of misrepresented material in
circulation, from "NWA 869," to the mix-and-match Martian and Lunar
pairings of recent years.

Nomenclature Committee guidelines haven't been followed since NWA
meteorites were in the single digits, by you or anyone else.  As John Shea
said before, pairing material at one's discretion is only as reliable as
the dealer doing it.

Jason







On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

>
> Thank you for the last word and the concern for my reputation.  These
> piggy-backing and self-pairing debates have gone on long before you became
> in interested in meteorites.
>
> My advice, since you are a member, is to read the IMCA bylaws which are
> all about authenticity and adhering to Meteoritical Society rules which do
> not support piggy-backing and self-pairing.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/4/2017 10:20 AM, Martin Goff wrote:
>
>> Adam,
>>
>> I am more than comfortable with my reputation and what I have
>> contributed to the world of meteorites. I don't need to blow smoke up
>> my arse or have the need to constantly have others prop up my fragile
>> ego. As for your opinion of me, well it's quite obvious I could not
>> care a jot what your opinion is, it is meaningless to me as it is to
>> most! (a fact that is backed up by all of the messages I've had in
>> private :-)) And as for calling you out,  whether on this list or on
>> Facebook, how you can state that that is 'behind your back' just shows
>> your levels of paranoid delusion! This list and facebook are both
>> public forums and I am more than happy to speak my mind on either!
>>
>> And as for the rest of your garbled message, if it was actually
>> coherent, readable and understandable then I might be able to
>> reply..
>>
>> But, as Johannes says folk are here to talk about meteorites so I
>> won't bore them by responding further. However I'm more than sure that
>> you'll want to have the final word and cement your reputation as
>> someone who is losing the plot by clambering onto your rickety soapbox
>> and ranting further whilst dribbling into your bib..
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> Martin Goff
>> www.msg-meteorites.co.uk
>> International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4 Nov 2017 16:50, "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list"

Re: [meteorite-list] From the dailybruin.com - Couple loans unexpected find to UCLA Meteorite Gallery

[Jason Utas via Meteorite-list]

Some additional photos:

(1) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DSCN8994.jpg

(2) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DSCN8992.jpg

(3) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DSCN8991.jpg

(4) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DSCN8990.jpg


As it is currently displayed (through glass):

(L) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_2949.jpg

(R) http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_2950.jpg


Jason

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Art via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

> Great news for UCLA ... Marvin, John, Nick, and Jason mentioned in this
> article about the Eltrich's awesome find.
>
>
> http://dailybruin.com/2016/06/27/couple-loans-unexpected-find-to-ucla-meteorite-gallery/
>
> -Art
>
> __
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] Possible chelyabinsk scam?

[Jason Utas]

Hello Graham,
I purchased that stone several months ago, corresponded briefly with
the seller, sent the money, and never heard back.  Paypal refunded the
full amount ~40-45 days later, after I filed a case.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Graham Ensor graham.en...@gmail.com wrote:
 Has anyone seen this Cheliabinsk meteorite around before?...I believe
 it is a scam...any thoughts anyone.
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151226609728?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

 Graham
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Re: [meteorite-list] Fraud from Portugal?

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
In all fairness, that Ourique does look ~ok.  H-chondrites with
similar regolith textures are around, but not common, and those pieces
look fresh enough.

The Chaves does look a bit funny, but it's also very small.  If the
seller says the specimen came from Corey, I'd double-check with Corey.
 If you check the Meteoritical Bulletin page's photos, you'll see at
least one piece that was sold by Jorge Gonçalves, and which appears to
be an L5 chondrite.  I'd be worried, but Corey should know what he
sold.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 I will provide the provenance at the time of sale. Micheal, I will let the 
 seller know that you think he is a scammer even though his reputation is 
 excellent and he considers you a friend.  For all I know, you probably 
 provided him with the piece.  That is the problem with falls, a few bad 
 apples have ruined it for the rest of us by introducing doubt into the market.


 The meteorite fall bubble burst a few years ago and non-fall bubble a long 
 time before that.  It took me years to unload my North American find 
 inventory, most of which came from TCU and I was lucky to break even.  I was 
 barely getting a dollar a gram for the material even though its provenance 
 was spotless.

 I enjoy meteorites and still contribute to the community any chance I get.  
 If I need some write-offs, I will be sure to flood the market.

 Best Wishes and Good Luck to all those selling at the Tucson Show.

 Adam




 - Original Message -
 From: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fraud from Portugal?

 Well there you go, less than 20 kg recovered and thus clearly a fraud.
 Please identify the scammer for us all.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 11, 2014, at 9:18 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I bought a chunk for $1.12/gram from a reputable dealer on eBay over two 
 years ago according to my notes.  Maybe I got a break but he states that 20 
 kilograms was claimed but there is well over 40 kilograms available.


 In any case, I do not collect falls partly because there is a lot of fraud 
 and switches going on.

 Adam




 - Original Message -
 From: Dennis Miller astror...@hotmail.com
 To: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 Cc: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Adam 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 7:58 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fraud from Portugal?

 Blood auctions: 2007 $10.00/gm
 2010 $22.75/gm
 Dennis

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 11, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:

 Ourique has never sold for $1 gram, unless fake.

 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPad

 On Feb 10, 2014, at 10:14 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:

 He is crazy asking $1,800.00 for a piece of Ourique, a very common H4 
 which normally sales for $1.00 /gram the last time some was put up on eBay.






 
 From: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com
 To: Met-List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:07 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Fraud from Portugal?


 I have a feeling that the fraudster from Portugal may be at it again. He 
 is listing under the name nrscc and has some rare items for sale. No 
 provenance, few details, ...

 Let me know your thoughts so we can stop this if in fact a fraud.

 http://www.ebay.com/sch/nrscc/m.html


 Mendy Ouzillou
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Re: [meteorite-list] Ad: Ebay auctions Ending Soon - North American Meteorites

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
Analyzed San Bernardino Wash is on the left.  An unclassified stone
being called San Bernardino Wash is on the right.  Both specimens have
approximately the same weight/surface area (~10-11 grams).

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/comparison.jpg

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:

 For those collectors with an interest in North American meteorites,
 I would like to bring your attention to some 3-day eBay offerings (ending 
 soon):


 http://www.ebay.com/sch/bolide*chaser/m.html

 Hope you enjoy the images,
 Bob V.
  bolide*chaser 

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Re: [meteorite-list] LINK

[Jason Utas]

One finds those odd black lumps in the desert with some regularity
(lot 37).  I always assumed they were heavily weathered globs of tar
from telephone poles, baked into odd shapes by the sun.  Typically not
quite as hard as rock when pressure is applied, chip conchoidally
revealing a glassy black texture.  Low density.  Higher concentration
closer to roads...

Nice piece of chalcedony (lot 34) being offered as a UFO token as
well.  Won't say the stuff isn't cool or something like that, but with
a close examination, I don't know how may of these things are U or
F.  Definitely Os, though.  How much is a pyrite nodule worth if
it's supposedly from a UFO (lot 35)?  Does that count as some sort of
'provenance?'

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Some people need to lighten up.  The Blood auction is supposed to be fun.  
 What better place than Tucson to offer these extraterrestrial marvels?


 UFOology is hot right now with over a dozen series devoted to the subject on 
 the cable TV channels.  Viewers cannot get enough of it. UFO material from 
 the 50's and 60's is among the top performing  items in the collectables 
 sector right now.  A decade ago, it was dinosaurs.

 It doesn't matter if you believe in it or not; Some of this material has 
 proven to be an excellent investment.

 Take this sketch of a flying saucer being offered up on eBay for instance:

 RARE RAY HARRYHAUSEN EARTH VS THE FLYING SAUCERS UFO SKETCH SIGNED ART
 AUTOGRAPH http://r.ebay.com/qwUlkI

 A mere $21,000.0 and it could be yours. It looks like there have been 5 
 offers on it.  I think the witness sketch in the Blood auction is way more 
 exciting and there is no minimum bid.

 Then there is Lot 37 which attracted the attention of the scientific 
 community.  It is made of 100% pure Enstatite aligned in sharp microscopic 
 shards which could not occur naturally.   It even looks oriented.  It is 
 informally referred to as the Puckerite for obvious reasons.  It doesn't 
 get more alien looking than this!


 You can cut and paste this link into  a browser if you want to know more 
 about Enstatite



 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enstatite

 Do not forget there is a specimen labeled as the Tucson meteorite in this 
 collection of artifacts!

 Tucson, with all of it wackiness and oddities, is the perfect place for this 
 kind offering.

 Adam







 - Original Message -
 From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net
 To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 4:54 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] LINK

 OOOPS


 http://michaelbloodmeteorites.com/AuctionTucson2014.html


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Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Ad: North American meteorite - San Bernardino Wash (L5)

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bob,
I'm confused.  I addressed that.  You're saying that, because they're
L5's, they are paired, despite the fact that they look different?

Over 1/10 meteorites found is L5.  Seriously.  Almost 5,000 approved
meteorites are L5s, out of ~48,000 total approved meteorites.  If you
find a meteorite and you keep looking, there's a ~1/10 chance that the
next (new) meteorite you find will be an L5.

The requirements are clear.  ...[A] single (collective) name may be
given in cases where fragments fit together or similar-looking
fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

[S]imilar-looking fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

I don't really understand why you'd try to claim a pairing.  Could
they be paired?  Maybe.  If you're arguing for the *possibility,* I
won't argue with you.  There's a very small, but indisputable, chance.
 Seems illogical to hedge your bet on it since they look so different,
though.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:48 AM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:
 I started to write a reply but then I realized that I was just repeating
 what I wrote earlier.
 So, I'll just reprint it here:

 But, to directly answer your question, I would have to refer you to my
 latest Meteorite-Times article:
 http://meteorite-recovery.tripod.com/2014/jan14.htm
 for my description of how a cluster of obviously-paired fragments found at
 SBW had such a variation in looks,
 that it prompted me to sample a number of them and to actually have two of
 those fragments classified.
 For your convenience, I'll show them here:

 Pinto Mountains --(L6 S3 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.3% n=16; low-Ca pyroxene
 Fs20.3Wo1.5 n=17)-- 1955 stone
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W3 Fa24.6+/-0.6% (n=7) -- (UCLA
 type-specimen) -- 2010 stone
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S1 W3 Fa24.0+/-0.2% (n=24)
 -- 2012A fragment
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.4% (n=14)
 -- 2012B fragment

 'Nuff said.
 Bob V.


 On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:51 PM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Helo Bob, All,

I agree, they definitely look different.

 'Nuff said.  You could assume microclimates, but I wouldn't start
 putting forth a hypothesis like that without something substantial
 like argon data to tie the two stones together.  The Meteoritical
 Bulletin is clear on pairing:

 http://meteoriticalsociety.org/?page_id=59

 a) Level of scrutiny. Sequential names comprising a prefix and numeric
 suffix will be given to new meteorites without checking for possible
 pairings, although a single (collective) name may be given in cases
 where fragments fit together or similar-looking fragments are found
 within a few meters of each other.

 b) Pairing groups. Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense
 collection areas may be considered paired with each other or with
 another formally named meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence,
 including geographic data, that is consistent with the meteorites
 being part of a single fall. The evidence must be evaluated by the
 Committee. All approved members of a pairing group will be named with
 a geographic prefix plus a number in the same way as are unpaired
 meteorites; special type-specimen requirements will apply to newly
 paired meteorites (section 7.1f). If two or more numbered meteorites
 with formal names are subsequently determined to be paired, their
 names should not be changed. Pairing groups may be referred to
 collectively by the lowest specimen number, the most widely studied
 mass number or the largest mass number (e.g., the EET 87711 pairing
 group).

 To emphasize the important part, a single (collective) name may be
 given in cases where fragments fit together or similar-looking
 fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

 They look different and weren't found within meters; the necessary
 evidence clearly isn't there.  Anything else is guesswork.

 Regards,
 Jason


 On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com
 wrote:


 Yes Jason,
 I agree, they definitely look different.
 But what has me puzzled is something that is not all that apparent in our
 images.  The exterior of our two stones.
 Your stone has a very well-preserved exterior (even though your interior
 is a uniformly-colored W3), whereas,
 my exterior (which is not visible in the image) is gone, actually eroded.
 Yet somehow, my stone's interior
 is less weathered than your stone (my stone was classified as W1).
 I wonder, if the interior of my stone were to weather to a W3, just how
 much it would look like your stone?


 But, to directly answer your question, I would have to refer you to my
 latest Meteorite-Times article:
 http://meteorite-recovery.tripod.com/2014/jan14.htm
 for my description of how a cluster of obviously-paired fragments found at
 SBW had such a variation in looks,
 that it prompted me to sample a number of them and to actually have two of
 those fragments classified.
 For your

Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Ad: North American meteorite - San Bernardino Wash (L5)

[Jason Utas]

 does beg the question:
 What is the evidence that the first 3 or 4 stones are actually paired, and why
 did the NomCom not follow those very policy guidelines that you quoted 
 earlier?

 Why is it, now, incumbent upon me to submit a request to the NomCom for 
 SBWash 002 and for the formation of a DCA?

 Particularly, when they DO look similar.  I only agreed that they weathered 
 differently.
 I still contend that all of my fragments (which come from a single, several 
 meter-wide patch
 formed by a splatter-impact) DO LOOK LIKE all the other stones recovered from 
 the San Bernardino Wash.
 Among all of these splatter-fragments there was only one that weathered 
 differently and “looked fresher” (on the inside).

 If you look at today’s MPOD  you can see an image of a slice from that 
 fresher looking fragment -
 http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpodmain.asp?DD=1/23/2014WYD=

 And if you look at the “rollover photo”, I contend that, if the interior of 
 the slice depicted were to weather
 just a little bit more and be a uniform orange-brown color, it would look 
 just like the interior of your specimen
 (assuming it is one of the Crabtree stones that was classified).

 Again, I’m not saying that either of us have done anything “wrong”.  In fact, 
 I find very little, in principle
 that we are in disagreement.  But I must admit to being curious how the 
 NomCom would respond if I were to submit
 my two classifications.

 With best regards,
 Bob V.


 On Thursday, January 23, 2014 2:45 AM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
  Hello Bob,
 I'm confused.  I addressed that.  You're saying that, because
 they're
 L5's, they are paired, despite the fact that they look different?

 Over 1/10 meteorites found is L5.  Seriously.  Almost 5,000 approved
 meteorites are L5s, out of ~48,000 total approved meteorites.  If you
 find a meteorite and you keep looking, there's a ~1/10 chance that the
 next (new) meteorite you find will be an L5.

 The requirements are clear.  ...[A] single (collective) name may be
 given in cases where fragments fit together or similar-looking
 fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

 [S]imilar-looking fragments are found within a few meters of each
 other.

 I don't really understand why you'd try to claim a pairing.  Could
 they be paired?  Maybe.  If you're arguing for the *possibility,* I
 won't argue with you.  There's a very small, but indisputable, chance.
 Seems illogical to hedge your bet on it since they look so different,
 though.

 Regards,
 Jason

 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Thu, Jan 23, 2014 at 12:48 AM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
  I started to write a reply but then I realized that I was just repeating
  what I wrote earlier.
  So, I'll just reprint it here:

  But, to directly answer your question, I would have to refer you to my
  latest Meteorite-Times article:
  http://meteorite-recovery.tripod.com/2014/jan14.htm
  for my description of how a cluster of obviously-paired fragments found
 at
  SBW had such a variation in looks,
  that it prompted me to sample a number of them and to actually have two
 of
  those fragments classified.
  For your convenience, I'll show them here:

  Pinto Mountains --(L6 S3 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.3% n=16; low-Ca pyroxene
  Fs20.3Wo1.5 n=17)-- 1955 stone
  San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W3 Fa24.6+/-0.6% (n=7) -- (UCLA
  type-specimen) -- 2010 stone
  San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S1 W3 Fa24.0+/-0.2% (n=24)
  -- 2012A fragment
  San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.4% (n=14)
  -- 2012B fragment

  'Nuff said.
  Bob V.


  On Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:51 PM, Jason Utas
 meteorite...@gmail.com
  wrote:

  Helo Bob, All,

 I agree, they definitely look different.

  'Nuff said.  You could assume microclimates, but I
 wouldn't start
  putting forth a hypothesis like that without something substantial
  like argon data to tie the two stones together.  The Meteoritical
  Bulletin is clear on pairing:

  http://meteoriticalsociety.org/?page_id=59

  a) Level of scrutiny. Sequential names comprising a prefix and numeric
  suffix will be given to new meteorites without checking for possible
  pairings, although a single (collective) name may be given in cases
  where fragments fit together or similar-looking fragments are found
  within a few meters of each other.

  b) Pairing groups. Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense
  collection areas may be considered paired with each other or with
  another formally named meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence,
  including geographic data, that is consistent with the meteorites
  being part of a single fall. The evidence must be evaluated by the
  Committee. All approved members of a pairing group will be named with
  a geographic prefix plus a number in the same way as are unpaired
  meteorites; special type-specimen requirements will apply to newly
  paired meteorites (section 7.1f). If two or more numbered meteorites
  with formal names

[meteorite-list] Fwd: Ad: North American meteorite - San Bernardino Wash (L5)

[Jason Utas]

Helo Bob, All,

I agree, they definitely look different.

'Nuff said.  You could assume microclimates, but I wouldn't start
putting forth a hypothesis like that without something substantial
like argon data to tie the two stones together.  The Meteoritical
Bulletin is clear on pairing:

http://meteoriticalsociety.org/?page_id=59

a) Level of scrutiny. Sequential names comprising a prefix and numeric
suffix will be given to new meteorites without checking for possible
pairings, although a single (collective) name may be given in cases
where fragments fit together or similar-looking fragments are found
within a few meters of each other.

b) Pairing groups. Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense
collection areas may be considered paired with each other or with
another formally named meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence,
including geographic data, that is consistent with the meteorites
being part of a single fall. The evidence must be evaluated by the
Committee. All approved members of a pairing group will be named with
a geographic prefix plus a number in the same way as are unpaired
meteorites; special type-specimen requirements will apply to newly
paired meteorites (section 7.1f). If two or more numbered meteorites
with formal names are subsequently determined to be paired, their
names should not be changed. Pairing groups may be referred to
collectively by the lowest specimen number, the most widely studied
mass number or the largest mass number (e.g., the EET 87711 pairing
group).

To emphasize the important part, a single (collective) name may be
given in cases where fragments fit together or similar-looking
fragments are found within a few meters of each other.

They look different and weren't found within meters; the necessary
evidence clearly isn't there.  Anything else is guesswork.

Regards,
Jason


On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:


 Yes Jason,
 I agree, they definitely look different.
 But what has me puzzled is something that is not all that apparent in our 
 images.  The exterior of our two stones.
 Your stone has a very well-preserved exterior (even though your interior is a 
 uniformly-colored W3), whereas,
 my exterior (which is not visible in the image) is gone, actually eroded. Yet 
 somehow, my stone's interior
 is less weathered than your stone (my stone was classified as W1).
 I wonder, if the interior of my stone were to weather to a W3, just how 
 much it would look like your stone?


 But, to directly answer your question, I would have to refer you to my latest 
 Meteorite-Times article:
 http://meteorite-recovery.tripod.com/2014/jan14.htm
 for my description of how a cluster of obviously-paired fragments found at 
 SBW had such a variation in looks,
 that it prompted me to sample a number of them and to actually have two of 
 those fragments classified.
 For your convenience, I'll show them here:

 Pinto Mountains -- (L6 S3 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.3% n=16; low-Ca pyroxene 
 Fs20.3Wo1.5 n=17)-- 1955 stone
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W3 Fa24.6+/-0.6% (n=7) -- (UCLA type-specimen) 
 -- 2010 stone
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S1 W3 Fa24.0+/-0.2% (n=24)
 -- 2012A fragment
 San Bernardino Wash -- (L5 S2 W1 Fa23.8+/-0.4% (n=14)
 -- 2012B fragment


 This just might be a case of (very) micro-environments acting immediate to 
 where each fragment is found, that is causing all of these differences.

 I'm open to any and all other explanations,
 Bob V.





 On Monday, January 20, 2014 2:48 PM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 Hello Bob, All,
Just home from a hunt, haven't had the opportunity to reply until now.
I don't have photos of the other stone/fragments, but I do have a few
photos of SBW#1 on hand:

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/DSCN7095.jpg

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/DSCN7101.jpg

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/comparison.jpg

Is there any evidence for pairing beyond equilibrated L?  As you can
see, that slice looks a bit different.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com



On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:
 For those collectors with an interest in North American meteorites,
 I would like to bring your attention to an eBay offering (ending soon) of a 
 classified find from the California Mojave Desert:
 San Bernardino Wash (L5)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/221353605398


 This under-appreciated meteorite promises to become better-known now that
 additional field-work and research results are starting to appear on the 
 Internet:

 https://www.google.com/#q=San+Bernardino+Wash+L5+meteorite+strewn-field

 Although the study of this area is too early to determine the possible TKW 
 of this meteorite,
 it certainly will not rival Gold Basin (L4/6), but it promises to be the 
 next Trilby Wash.
 The specimens that I am offering are the remaining slices from

Re: [meteorite-list] Ad: North American meteorite - San Bernardino Wash (L5)

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bob, All,
Just home from a hunt, haven't had the opportunity to reply until now.
 I don't have photos of the other stone/fragments, but I do have a few
photos of SBW#1 on hand:

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/DSCN7095.jpg

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/DSCN7101.jpg

http://meteoritegallery.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/comparison.jpg

Is there any evidence for pairing beyond equilibrated L?  As you can
see, that slice looks a bit different.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:
 For those collectors with an interest in North American meteorites,
 I would like to bring your attention to an eBay offering (ending soon) of a 
 classified find from the California Mojave Desert:
 San Bernardino Wash (L5)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/221353605398


 This under-appreciated meteorite promises to become better-known now that
 additional field-work and research results are starting to appear on the 
 Internet:

 https://www.google.com/#q=San+Bernardino+Wash+L5+meteorite+strewn-field

 Although the study of this area is too early to determine the possible TKW of 
 this meteorite,
 it certainly will not rival Gold Basin (L4/6), but it promises to be the next 
 Trilby Wash.
 The specimens that I am offering are the remaining slices from the samples 
 used to determine pairing.
 These two classifications confirmed their pairing to the SBW(L5) 
 type-specimen held at UCLA.
 I will only be offering additional specimens for auction until the cost of 
 this lab-work has been defrayed.
 But, as usual, I will continue to accept requests for samples by any 
 interested researchers.

 Thank you for your interest,
 Bob V.
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Re: [meteorite-list] KATOL (L6) is official

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
Krinov discussed the depressions with raised rims observed on Sikhote
Alines and concluded that they were not impact marks, but were instead
formed when volatile inclusions (relative to Fe-Ni) reached the
surface of the iron and boiled out.  I have seen a few with remnants
of what might be tiny impactors in the center/floor of the pit, but I
do think that they are most likely 'bubbles'...not to burst anyones'
bubbles.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107508108525239417569/Irons?authkey=Gv1sRgCJ6DmIe53MKuGg#5549869672083631618

It would make sense for a chondritic-derived iron to have more
volatile inclusions than a typical iron, so the abundant pits on
Michael's iron make sense.

If what Jeff said is true, Katol would be analogous to other primitive
achondrite groups that show depletions in siderophiles and other more
volatile minerals with increasing degrees of reduction and
recrystallization (e.g. acapulcoites/lodranites, winonaites,
etc.)...though Katol would be more comparable to those groups'
volatile-enriched counterparts, which have yet to be recognized in our
collections.  I don't know that one could determine the origin of the
poikilitic grains in this rock, but, the meteorite has experienced a
significant degree of macroscopic segregation (e.g. there are some
irons, some stones that are ~50/50, and some stones that are
non-magnetic).  If we were talking about typical impact-derived,
ragged metal grains, it would be one thing, but that doesn't appear to
be the case.  Since siderophile enrichment and depletion can happen
without complete recrystallization (e.g. Leedy and some other FeS
depleted chondrites), that in itself isn't a great argument, but those
rocks don't exhibit the same degree of metamorphism or heterogeneity.
And they probably don't exhibit the other anomalies noted by Jeff.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107508108525239417569/NewFallTS?authkey=Gv1sRgCPjn9avbhp2TrwE#5941037918280051250

Field of view is ~4cm.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Graham Ensor graham.en...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think it is almost totally nickel iron and the marks are flow lines
 and small impact pits similar to those you find on Sikhote Alin...

 Graham

 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 8:30 PM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Or perhaps the sphericals are vesiculation of fusion crust? I agree
 with Jim, it would be nice to see some BSE images.

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Beautiful oriented and flow lines! I assume all the circular and
 spherical shapes are chondrules peeking through the fusion crust?

 Thanks for sharing Mike!

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Jim Wooddell
 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 Thanks Jeff!

 Would love to see a polished window image as well as some BSE images now!
 Maybe Laurence or whoever has them can share!

 If this thing is going to have a paper published we may have to wait!


 Jim






 On 1/1/2014 11:35 AM, Jeff Grossman wrote:

 Mike's photo in posted in the database now.

 Jeff

 On 1/1/2014 1:19 PM, Jim Wooddell wrote:


 --
 Jim Wooddell
 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net
 http://pages.suddenlink.net/chondrule/

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Re: [meteorite-list] KATOL (L6) is official

[Jason Utas]

The lab data you (Carl) mention suggests only L, nothing more.  No
one's arguing with that.  We had that data months ago.

As I understand it, not one chondrule was observed optically in Katol;
they were found only when examining BSE images.  This would have ruled
out a chondritic classification prior to the widespread use of SEM's.
And the fact that we're discussing this now is relevant; no other
type 6 chondrite has been metamorphosed to this extent (literally
invisible chondrules, unless you have a multi-million dollar piece of
equipment at your disposal).

Since this meteorite doesn't texturally resemble any known L's, having
been melted and slowly cooled to a poikilitic texture, deeming it an
L6 is pigeonholing it.  Larger-scale heterogeneities resulted in 140
gram iron meteorites and 200+ gram literally metallic-iron-free
meteorites with glossy Ca-rich fusion crusts.  Such things aren't
usually glossed over when classifying a meteorite.

It's just like calling Al Haggounia 001 an aubrite, EL6/7, or EL3.
Just because you can justify a classification with a few parameters
doesn't make it an accurate descriptor of a meteorite.  Which of those
classifications is best?  EL3.  Is it right?  No.  That stone doesn't
texturally resemble any other (enstatite) chondrites of any kind.
It's anomalous.

Rather like Katol.

Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Hi Mike,

 No doubt an interesting meteorite! I guess I should qualify it by
 saying the oxygen and the olivine and pyroxene geochem data are garden
 variety EOC. I guess looks can be deceiving -- yet another testimony
 to lab data being the blind taste test.

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com 
 wrote:
 Carl, the huge metal nodules, the large green crystals throughout the 
 matrix, very odd meteorites, everyone who looked at it thought it was an 
 achondrite, including many scientists.
 I've never seen an L6 with white matrix and some pieces nearly green with 
 crystals.
 Not your garden variety L6 for sure.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPad

 On Dec 31, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:

 Super write-up by Laurence Garvie, but strange that there was so much
 mystery surrounding what turns out to be garden variety L6, albeit a
 nice fresh fall. I wonder why people thought it was achondrite-ung?
 Oxygen and geochem are unequivocal EOC, no mystery at all.

 Carl Agee
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Jim Wooddell
 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 Nice GeoChem data.  Interesting to see the XFR data included.


 Happy New Year!

 Jim Wooddell




 On 12/31/2013 8:14 AM, karmaka wrote:

 Dear list members,
  Katol is officially listed as an L6 in the Bulletin now!


 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=Katolsfor=namesants=falls=valids=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allrect=phot=snew=0pnt=Normal%20tablecode=58500
  Happy new year 2014 to all of you!
  Martin
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 --
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 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net
 http://pages.suddenlink.net/chondrule/


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Re: [meteorite-list] KATOL (L6) is official

[Jason Utas]

Hello Carl, All,
The low standard deviation on Fa and Fs denotes a high degree of
equilibration, not just 5 or 6.  Five or above would be more
accurate.  The nearly absent chondrules and high Wo are at [or beyond]
type 6.  If you're a researcher who believes in type 7 chondrites,
since not all do.

Based upon similar observations, one would simply call Al Haggounia
001 an aubrite, or an EL3 if one were lucky enough to find an
unequilibrated chondrule.  The textural observations would be
irrelevant.  If we looked at other meteorites in a similar fashion,
subgroups and textural designations would disappear.

Since nomenclature blows back and forth, this is something of a
semantic argument; as I understand it, the poikilitic shergottite
you recently analyzed would have been a lherzolite only a few years
ago, and no amount of discussion then or now would have changed that.
And there is of course variation in analyses.  NWA 5205 is paired with
NWA 5421 and our NWA 6501.  Which was supposedly paired with NWA 6283.
 Very distinctive material, with classifications ranging from LL3.2 to
LL3.7 to H3.6.

But you did note that the shergottite was poikilitic.  So is Katol.
This stone has been metamorphosed in a unique way for a chondrite, and
its classification required a much greater degree of attention because
of that.  But the result does not reflect that.  Just like Al
Haggounia 001, the aubrite.   It's odd, and I do think that
'pigeonholing' is the right term to use here.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 2:45 PM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Mike, Andy, Jim,

 I don't have bias one way or another in the case of Katol, but looking
 at the data in the write-up this is a clear-cut L6 chondrite -- no
 ambiguity. There are chondrules albeit highly equilbrated, the
 olivines are L6, the pyroxenes are L6, the oxygen isotopes are
 L-chondrite. If there were no chondrules, high Wo and OC-type olivine
 and pyroxene, then one could make the case for type 7. I'm just going
 by the numbers given in the write-up, I haven't looked at this beyond
 a quick glance in hand specimen, not an achondrite -- period.

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 I was also under the impression that this was transitional likely between L
 chondrites and primitive achondrites.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Dec 31, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Andy Tomkins rockdo...@gmail.com wrote:

 With great respect and just to be a little bit controversial...  With a high
 wollastonite content in the opx like that, sparse remnant chondrules and
 many of the other features, perhaps this might be a L7? An example of why
 there needs to be a clearer definition of what defines Type 6 from Type 7?

 Andy Tomkins

 On Wednesday, 1 January 2014, Andy Tomkins wrote:



 On Wednesday, 1 January 2014, Carl Agee wrote:

 Hi Mike,

 No doubt an interesting meteorite! I guess I should qualify it by
 saying the oxygen and the olivine and pyroxene geochem data are garden
 variety EOC. I guess looks can be deceiving -- yet another testimony
 to lab data being the blind taste test.

 Carl
 *
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 wrote:
  Carl, the huge metal nodules, the large green crystals throughout the
  matrix, very odd meteorites, everyone who looked at it thought it was an
  achondrite, including many scientists.
  I've never seen an L6 with white matrix and some pieces nearly green
  with crystals.
  Not your garden variety L6 for sure.
  Michael Farmer
 
  Sent from my iPad
 
  On Dec 31, 2013, at 10:14 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 
  Super write-up by Laurence Garvie, but strange that there was so much
  mystery surrounding what turns out to be garden variety L6, albeit a
  nice fresh fall. I wonder why people thought it was achondrite-ung?
  Oxygen and geochem are unequivocal EOC, no mystery at all.
 
  Carl Agee
  *
  Carl B. Agee
  Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
  Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
  MSC03 2050
  University of New Mexico
  Albuquerque NM 87131-1126
 
  Tel: (505) 750-7172
  Fax: (505) 277-3577
  Email: a...@unm.edu
  http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/
 
 
 
  On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Jim Wooddell
  jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net 

Re: [meteorite-list] Looking for Happy meteorite goodness

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
Gao, Chergach, Pultusk, and other ordinary chondrites often have their
impact melt portions ignored when being characterized.  Chelyabinsk
would be the most recent obvious example of this -- LL5 S4 W0
Except, when you read the petrographic description:

...A significant portion (1/3) of the stones consist of a dark,
fine-grained impact melt containing mineral and chondrule fragments.
Feldspar is well developed and practically isotropic. No high-pressure
phases were found in the impact melt. There are black-colored thin
shock veins in both light and dark lithologies.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=57165

We collectors see impact melt and think it's cool, but it's secondary
information for the classification, I think.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:35 AM, Jim Wooddell
jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 On 10/30/2013 6:02 AM, Marc Fries wrote:

 Let  me try that again with a more accurate Subject line...
 Hi Marc!

 Looking at the pictures and the lack of information in the bulletin, this
 one would be worthy of another stab at classification!  Happy (b) and (c)
 could use some new work too!



 Jim




 On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Marc Fries wrote:

 Howdy all

  I'm looking for a meteorite to buy or borrow for a scientific study.
 Does anyone have a piece of Happy(a)?  It is listed as an H3 but appears to
 be an impact melt, at least in part.  Please contact me off-list at
 mfri...@hotmail.com

 Cheers,
 Marc Fries



 --
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 jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net
 http://pages.suddenlink.net/chondrule/


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Re: [meteorite-list] Katol news

[Jason Utas]

Hello Mike,
The data and thin sections I've seen suggest that it is a completely
recrystallized rock with a generally chondritic composition.

Such meteorites have been previously classified as primitive
achondrites, type-7 chondrites, and metachondrites.  I believe the
distinction between these groups is semantic, though most
researchers seem to have opinions regarding the use of particular
names.  Examples of some accepted chemical groups of these meteorites
are acapulcoites/lodranites, winonaites, and possibly 'primitive
enstatite achondrites.'

Basic mineralogy did not rule out an L or H chondrite protolith, so it
could be the first witnessed fall of a thoroughly metamorphosed
ordinary/H chondrite, but it is not an H5.

http://www.geosocindia.org/abstracts/2013/feb/p151-157.pdf

The features noted in the above paper as chondrules could potentially
represent relict chondrules, but I have yet to see anything that I
would deem a chondrule remnant in the (several) thin sections I've
examined...or those images.

American and other scientists are currently working on the stone in
order to classify it.

Regards,
Jason




On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Galactic Stone  Ironworks
meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi List,

 Last night I heard something puzzling.

 A collector/scientist that I know says that he read a paper published
 by GSI that claims Katol is an H5 chondrite.  I asked him for a link
 to the paper or more info on it, and I am still waiting to hear back
 on that.

 In the meantime, this has me wondering.  I have seen a lot of H5
 chondrites over the years.  I have seen fresh H5 falls and weathered
 H5 NWA stones.  I have never seen an H5 (or any H-chondrite) that
 resembles Katol.  I have a hard time believing that this meteorite is
 an H.  The pieces I have seen (many, ranging in size from crumbs to 2+
 grams, whole and fragments) do not look like chondrites at all.  I
 have heard reports of specimens that have chondrules, but I have not
 seen any.  I also heard reports of a specimen that is entirely metal
 and another one with crystalline inclusions.  If those reports are
 credible, and based on the green matrix and crystalline texture, then
 I doubt this is an H-chondrite.

 Does anyone have a link to this GSI paper or more info about it?

 Best regards,

 MikeG

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Re: [meteorite-list] Possible Ancient Meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Hello Roman, All,
I'm no expert, but...

The vertical view of the vessel is triangular because the pottery
fragments of the lower portion came from a much larger vessel --
probably a bowl or two-handled vessel of some sort, given its apparent
diameter and the thickness of some of the fragments.  The glazed and
delicately-formed lip and neck appear to be from a completely
different vase -- a nice one, at that.  The handle is a bit odd, not
sure about it.

The first question that came to mind after seeing the images is Why
would anyone glue pieces of a large pot together in the form of a much
smaller one?

Upon closer inspection, I began to wonder why an archaeologist would
glue mismatched pieces of glass or glazed pottery, painted and scored
terracotta, and other ceramics of greatly differing thicknesses
together into a triangular shape that (crudely) mimics an amphora's
shape...albeit with one handle.

I'm surprised that anyone carbon-dated the site, given that the
pottery and details of other artifacts are often deemed suitable for
dating purposes.

I had too many questions after reading the provided description.
Sure, pass the fellow along to an expert...

Jason

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Anne Black impact...@aol.com wrote:
 Hello Roman,

 It is really quite simple.
 Since he is in Phoenix AZ, he should go straight to Arizona State University
 (ASU) they have an archaeology department and some of the top meteorite
 experts.
 Perfect place to get answers to all his questions.


 Anne M. Black
 www.IMPACTIKA.com
 impact...@aol.com



 -Original Message-
 From: Roman Jirasek r...@meteoritelabels.com
 To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thu, Sep 12, 2013 8:00 pm
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Possible Ancient Meteorite


 I had an archaeologist email me today asking about custom labels, and also
 if I could help with identifying a possible ancient meteorite he found this
 year.

 I received permission to send this question to my fellow colleagues which
 may
 have more insight into this topic. Read below, or click on link to see his
 photos...
 http://www.meteoritelabels.com/Ancient.htm

 Cheers,
 Roman Jirasek
 www.meteoritelabels.com

 Copied email follows

 I am an Archaeologist and recovered a meteorite in 2013, on private
 property in Sparta Greece. This meteorite was found inside an ancient vase,
 and was buried with human remains. We dated this site to approximately, 220
 BCE to 130 BCE, but have not yet carbon dated the item.

 I do not know of any meteorite falling on or near Sparta Greece.  Since the
 meteorite was found inside an honorary vase, we suspect it was held in high
 regards, and more than likely to remember a battle.

 The only battle recorded that had a meteorite that fell during the battle;
 was with ancient Turkey and the Spartans.

 It actually stopped the battle for two days, thinking it was a sign from the
 gods. Many of the Spartans recovered portions of the meteorite is a sign of
 victory from the God of Mars.

 I have enclosed a picture of the meteorite. Can you tell me? Of any
 meteorites that fell prior to 220 BCE, since we know that was the earliest
 date, since the meteorites was buried with the hoplite soldier.  We assume
 the meteorite obviously fell before that date.

 This would help us, with dating the find.

 Additionally  what would the selling price be if it were to be sold. The
 meteorite?

 Thank you

 Douglas Roth.
 Phoenix, Arizona.
 Sparta archaeology.

 Yes, it is fine to forward the info and pics.

 I don't have any dir links, but can be found, on face book for Douglas
 Rothman Scottsdale, or ancient history on face book for archeology travel
 and tours.

 Douglas Rothman.





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Re: [meteorite-list] Largest Piece So Far of Chelyabinsk Meteorite Found - Is there a photo?

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
The 3.4kg stone was recovered in March or April -- that's when the
first media photos surfaced.  Despite its early recovery, it does seem
to be somewhat weathered; Novato may help to explain that.  The
impact-melted portions of that meteorite showed significant rusting
after only 10 days in the field, while the rest of the meteorite
looked quite fresh.  I'd personally wait for bigger chunks; if a
several-hundred pounder did made it to the lake, it means that
fragments of all sizes in-between (and perhaps larger) should exist
(and will eventually be found?).  That said, the 3.07kg stone is a
beaut, and finding a nicer one would be tough regardless of what comes
to light.  We'll see...
Regards,
Jason


www.fallsandfinds.com


On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Hello Anne and Lister

 That's a nice piece, it looks like it was recovered a few ... few days or 
 months after the fall. Hows much is that bad boy going for?

 As for the big hunk of rock at the bottom of  Chebarkul Lake, I do to wonder 
 how much will be salvageable and worthy for science and if science can learn 
 how water can deteriate meteorites in water? I also wonder if anyone from the 
 list for fun has taken a NWA XXX stone and dropped it in water and watched 
 what happened to the stone over time?

 Shawn Alan
 IMCA 1633
 ebay store
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html
 http://meteoritefalls.com/



 - Original Message -
 From: Anne Black impact...@aol.com
 To: photoph...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Friday, September 6, 2013 3:09 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Largest Piece So Far of Chelyabinsk Meteorite 
 Found - Is there a photo?

 Hello Shawn and List,

 Since the finder of that 3.4 kg Chelyabinsk is the one who sent the
 picture to me and since he still wants to sell it, I am sure he won't
 mind if I publish the picture again. And here it is:
 http://www.impactika.com/CH-3400.jpg

 And BTW I have the second largest:  3070kg.

 As for the one at the bottom of the lake, after that many months in the
 water, I really wonder what it will look like.

 Anne M. Black
 http://www.impactika.com/
 impact...@aol.com


 -Original Message-
 From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com
 To: Meteorite Central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Fri, Sep 6, 2013 12:54 pm
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Largest Piece So Far of Chelyabinsk Meteorite
 Found - Is there a photo?


 Hello Listers,

 I saw that some one had found a 3.4kg Chelyabinsk and its been
 suggested it the
 largest one found so far? Is this true, and are there any photos of it,
 I have
 tried to look for some and cant find any images of the new main mass.
 Lastly,
 its been said by the Russian authorities that there is a 600kg stone at
 the
 bottom of Chebarkul Lake, if recovered, I wonder what that will do to
 the price
 of the Chelyabinsk in the open market?

 Shawn Alan
 IMCA 1633
 ebay store
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html
 http://meteoritefalls.com/
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Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

[Jason Utas]

Woah, rude and condescending.  I don't think I've ever told anyone
that a public list post 'wasn't their business.'

Anyway, I'd like to point out the following:

1) Since you're claiming a record based on the difference between the
two (a slice versus a slab), a formal definition must be made.  E.g. a
slice becomes a slab when the thickness becomes __% of the specimen's
cross-sectional area.  Or something like that.  If you don't even know
what criteria define a slice, you can't reasonably claim that
someone made the largest one.

Which is clear when you consider the obvious: Marlin may hold a
'larger record,' having cut a larger/thicker slice in the past.  Or a
NASA technician might hold the record, from a slice/slab cut in the
70's, or later.  Which brings me to my next point.

2) Since we're talking about the largest slice ever *cut,* later
subdivision shouldn't matter.  Cutting a slice is a technical
operation, the difficulty of which is not altered by later subdivision
of the specimen.  If we're talking about the largest slice *in
existence,* that's a different record.

3) The definition of the record also relies upon the definition of
largest.  You've made it clear that NWA 5000 is less dense than the
Apollo sample in question, so your self-serving definition of
largest relies upon the surface area of a slice, not its weight.
Meteorites' value is most often determined by their weight, so this
seems a little odd to me.

I'm glad you were able to find and state (later) that the slice cut
from NWA 5000 is currently, definitively thicker than the one cut from
Apollo sample 61016.  New information is always nice.

That said, the dimensions you quote are the current ones, so one would
need to look into the largest slice/slab ever *cut* at NASA, if that's
what the record is for.  Either way, Marlin would hold the record for
cutting the 3kg slice (not the 1.1 kg slice) if he does hold the
record.  You might as well be fair about it.

4) Shawn makes a fair point that is somewhat tangential; cutting a
large pallasite, iron, or chondrite is probably more difficult,
rendering this an odd record to make note of.  While lunar slabs of a
kilo or two may not be common, meteorite slices of this size are
abundant.  I wouldn't necessarily call one of them a token, but a
Campo slab of that size or weight would probably cost hundreds of
dollars, and would be a more difficult cutting and preparation job.
And then there are the Fukang, Seymchan, Mundrabilla, and Cape York
slices, often in excess of a meter in at least one dimension.  Much
more difficult to do.

Seems like a publicity stunt to me, which I have no problem with, but
you should probably iron out the details first.

Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 12:39 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 We are talking about a Moon rock here and yes, there are official world 
 records involved.


 1,116.78 grams, a token?  What planet are you from?


 Dislodged pieces of the Moon are the most coveted of all according to the 
 Smithsonian.  Most Americans consider the NASA Apollo collection of Moon 
 rocks more valuable than the gold in Fort Knox.  I think they represent one 
 of mans greatest achievements and are a national treasure but this is just my 
 opinion.  Some may think the missions to the Moon were just trivial and the 
 rocks brought back are just tokens.


 Adam



 - Original Message -
 From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com
 To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com; Meteorite Central 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 11:26 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

 Interesting...

 I didn't know there was a lunar world record slice contest. I mean 1,116.78 
 grams - 238mm X 218mm X 14mm of NWA 5000 would

 be nice to have. But there are many other meteorite slices or whole slices

 that make the 1,116.78 look like token.

 Also its seem this record is for whole slice, a slice is a slice :)

 I wonder what is the world record slice :) I have seen some beautiful Brenham 
 slices at Bonhams auctions and those suckers were big.

 Any whos, if the slice is cute to make it smaller, then wouldn't it make the 
 world record void?

 At any rate, I wish I had that in my collection :) great job.


 Shawn Alan
 IMCA 1633
 ebay store
 http://stores.ebay.com/imca1633ny?_rdc=1
 http://meteoritefalls.com/
 




 From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 10:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!


 Hello Adam,
 Your statements confuse me.  At what point is a slice no longer a
 slice, but a slab, and at which point does later subdivision of a
 slice/slab render it not worthwhile to record the original
 slice/slab's weight for purposes of deeming it a record-breaking cut

Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
I hate to rain on the parade, but I'd do some research before making
'record-breaking' claims.

http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/61016.pdf

I don't know how much the largest slabs of Apollo material weigh(ed),
but they were/are sizable.  And I don't even know if the huge slabs in
the above document were/are the largest they cut.

This isn't my project, so I don't feel particularly inclined to ask
NASA how large their largest slices of lunar material weigh(ed).

Either way the old record probably goes to NASA. Marlin could hold a
new record having cut a 1.1 kg slice, but that's questionable given
the photos in the above article, if nothing else.

Regards,
Jason


www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote:
 Hi Mike,

 I am glad you asked for images of the Northwest Africa 5000 complete slices,
 here are a few to get you started and I can share more as time allows...
 http://www.naturesvault.net/meteorites/nwa5000.html

 The sequence of slices liberated from the original 11.528 kilo mass start
 with CS1 (the 'Ambassador' slice), then CS2, CS3, and so forth to CS6. The
 slice on today's Meteorite Picture of the Day is CS3. Side 'b' of each slice
 goes deeper into the mass and the surface area of the slices become even
 larger than the previous slice.

 The 483.89 gram 'Mona Lisa of Moon Rocks' slice will start its world tour at
 the 2013 Ensisheim Show this Friday and continue on to the Sainte Marie aux
 Mines show if it is still available. I will also be bringing a selection of
 smaller slices that are gorgeous!

 If you are going to the Ensisheim Show, or are still contemplating it, this
 complete slice of NWA 5000 looks incredibly better in person as attempts to
 capture its beauty by mere photos are very difficult.

 I hope to see you all there!

 Best Regards,
 Greg

 
 Greg Hupé
 The Hupé Collection
 gmh...@centurylink.net
 www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog  Reference Site)
 www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site)
 NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest  eBay)
 http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
 http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault
 IMCA 3163
 
 Click here for my current eBay auctions:
 http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault



 -Original Message- From: Galactic Stone  Ironworks
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:06 PM
 To: Adam Hupe
 Cc: Adam
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!


 Hi Adam,

 I think I speak for many on the List when I say this :

 PHOTOS!  And LOTS of them.  Every angle.  High-res.  Close-ups of
 interesting clasts.  Inquiring minds wanna see eye candy.  :)

 Best regards,

 MikeG

 --
 -
 Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
 Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
 Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
 Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
 Blog - http://www.galactic-stone.com/blog
 -


 On 6/17/13, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:



 A big congratulations should go out to Marlin Cilz who prepared five new
 NWA
 5000 complete slices.  He broke a world record which I previously held for
 5-1/2 years for preparing the single complete slice known as the
 Ambassador.  I never disclosed the record while I held it but it is for
 producing the world's largest Moon rock slice.  It is doubtful that
 anybody
 will break Marlin's new record anytime soon,

 The record.is:

 NWA 5000 Complete Slice:
 1,116.78 grams - 238mm X 218mm X 14mm

 My brother, Greg and I would have never had Marlin produce a slice this
 big
 hadn't it been for a custom order.

 Marlin did a world class job of preparing these slices and I wanted to
 thank
 him publicly.


 Adam Hupe
 The Hupe Planetary Collection





 
 From: valpar...@aol.com valpar...@aol.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 12:00 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day


 Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: NWA 5000

 Contributed by: Greg and Adam Hupe

 http://www.tucsonmeteorites.com/mpod.asp
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 Visit the 

Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

[Jason Utas]

Hello Adam,
Your statements confuse me.  At what point is a slice no longer a
slice, but a slab, and at which point does later subdivision of a
slice/slab render it not worthwhile to record the original
slice/slab's weight for purposes of deeming it a record-breaking cut?

It seems like you're using a very specific definition of complete
slice to deem this a record-breaking event.  Though, not knowing the
weight of the largest slice/slab of 61016 (or other lunar samples), I
find such proclamations...odd.

As to who cares? -- apparently you do, since you're making the claims.

I'm all for publicity, but if one's going to make claims regarding
quantitative numbers, one should be able to back them up -- and
probably have the weights of the largest previously cut Apollo sample
slices/slabs on hand to support it.  Eyeing a photo and saying it
looks like it weighs less doesn't quite cut it.

I can speak for Marlin's fine work, and have no doubt he did a fine
job on the slices.  But that's beside the point.

Regards,
Jason



www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Jason,


 I looked at the link and what you are calling a complete slice is a slab.  If 
 we are going for the world record slab cut, then Marlin still has it.

 The largest slab cut from NWA 5000 was as follows:

 3,538 grams
 238mm X 219mm X 52mm

 Of course, this slab was subdivided into five of the worlds largest Lunar 
 complete slices which was the intent from the beginning.  Just like NASA 
 always intended to subdivide the 61016 slab for testing.  I would estimate 
 the 61016 slab to be less than half the size and weight of the NWA 5000 slab 
 that Marlin produced.

 Who cares?  Marlin did a wonderful preparation job and is to be commended on 
 a new world record!


 Adam









 - Original Message -
 From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 To: Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net
 Cc: Galactic Stone  Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com; Adam Hupe 
 raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Meteorite-list 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 3:49 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!

 Hello All,
 I hate to rain on the parade, but I'd do some research before making
 'record-breaking' claims.

 http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/lsc/61016.pdf

 I don't know how much the largest slabs of Apollo material weigh(ed),
 but they were/are sizable.  And I don't even know if the huge slabs in
 the above document were/are the largest they cut.

 This isn't my project, so I don't feel particularly inclined to ask
 NASA how large their largest slices of lunar material weigh(ed).

 Either way the old record probably goes to NASA. Marlin could hold a
 new record having cut a 1.1 kg slice, but that's questionable given
 the photos in the above article, if nothing else.

 Regards,
 Jason


 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote:
 Hi Mike,

 I am glad you asked for images of the Northwest Africa 5000 complete slices,
 here are a few to get you started and I can share more as time allows...
 http://www.naturesvault.net/meteorites/nwa5000.html

 The sequence of slices liberated from the original 11.528 kilo mass start
 with CS1 (the 'Ambassador' slice), then CS2, CS3, and so forth to CS6. The
 slice on today's Meteorite Picture of the Day is CS3. Side 'b' of each slice
 goes deeper into the mass and the surface area of the slices become even
 larger than the previous slice.

 The 483.89 gram 'Mona Lisa of Moon Rocks' slice will start its world tour at
 the 2013 Ensisheim Show this Friday and continue on to the Sainte Marie aux
 Mines show if it is still available. I will also be bringing a selection of
 smaller slices that are gorgeous!

 If you are going to the Ensisheim Show, or are still contemplating it, this
 complete slice of NWA 5000 looks incredibly better in person as attempts to
 capture its beauty by mere photos are very difficult.

 I hope to see you all there!

 Best Regards,
 Greg

 
 Greg Hupé
 The Hupé Collection
 gmh...@centurylink.net
 www.NaturesVault.net (Online Catalog  Reference Site)
 www.LunarRock.com (Online Planetary Meteorite Site)
 NaturesVault (Facebook, Pinterest  eBay)
 http://www.facebook.com/NaturesVault
 http://pinterest.com/NaturesVault
 IMCA 3163
 
 Click here for my current eBay auctions:
 http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault



 -Original Message- From: Galactic Stone  Ironworks
 Sent: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:06 PM
 To: Adam Hupe
 Cc: Adam
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] World Record Slice Produced By Marlin Cilz!


 Hi Adam,

 I think I speak for many on the List when I say this :

 PHOTOS!  And LOTS of them.  Every angle.  High-res.  Close-ups of
 interesting clasts.  Inquiring minds wanna see eye candy.  :)

 Best regards,

 MikeG

Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bill, Brandon, All,
Given the seller, I'm surprised anyone would consider it without a
very good photographic record of provenance.  Could be Mifflin: looks
better than most of the H-chondrite misrepresented material that was
going around.  But the same seller recently sold off-looking Nuevo
Mercurio and Chelyabinsk, and has a documented history of mixing
things up.
Wouldn't touch it, myself.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:41 PM, bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com wrote:
 That slice seemed reasonable. I'm surprised it didn't sell.


 
 From: b1dunov...@aol.com
 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 09:52:09 -0500
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

 All,

 I wondered if anybody might offer some input or opinions on a 8.26g slice of 
 Mifflin currently for sale on eBay.

 http://tiny.cc/tugmyw

 Great price if as stated.. but is it or not?

 Thanks,
 Brandon D.
 IMCA# 9312
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Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bill, Brandon, Mendy, all,
Honestly, this slice doesn't look bad.  If you compare the breccias:

(real, from a stone found by Sonny Clary)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MUSEUM-QUALITY-CRUSTED-FULL-SLICE-MAGNIFICENT-MIFFLIN-METEORITE-L5-12-57-GMS-/200687083720?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2eb9e1e0c8

(?)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MIFFLIN-L5-METEORITE-8-26g-BEAUTIFUL-CRUSTED-SLICE-WITNESSED-FALL-4-14-2010-/271220743348?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3f26041cb4nma=truesi=jHrsL50utK2qqpfbNFqr9%252BcmQSM%253Dorig_cvip=truert=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It looks good.  The textures are close, if not identical.  But, we
know the same seller sliced and sold an unclassified NWA L/LL as
Amgala (proven via photographic comparison of sister slices by another
list-member).  And, we know the variety of NWAs available.  It would
be tough to find a match this good.  But not impossible.

Mendy suggested Ash Creek -- they're close, but the brecciated portion
of Ash Creek is almost always a lighter grey color and the
unbrecciated lasts look a little more homogenous (makes sense, since
Ash Creek is an L6 and Mifflin's an L5).  Definitely discernible in a
line-up of photos.

Meh.  If I really wanted a slice of Mifflin, I'd probably buy this
slice.  But I'd scrutinize the hell of out of it, ask him for his
source, and verify provenance as far as I could with photos, weights,
invoices, etc.  Not a purchase I'd personally consider.  But it is
cheap - if it's real.

Jason



www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Bill,

 To Jason's point, is this past auction Ash Creek, Mifflin or something else: 
 http://bit.ly/13FM9Aw?

 Compare this Ash Creek to the present Mifflin being discussed.


 Mendy Ouzillou


 - Original Message -
 From: bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com
 To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

 Let's forget the seller for the moment. Why is this not Mifflin and what
 other material do you think it could be?

 Thanks,
 Bill

 --
  Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:15:43 -0700
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay
  From: meteorite...@gmail.com
  To: parkforest...@hotmail.com
  CC: b1dunov...@aol.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

  Hello Bill, Brandon, All,
  Given the seller, I'm surprised anyone would consider it without a
  very good photographic record of provenance. Could be Mifflin: looks
  better than most of the H-chondrite misrepresented material that was
  going around. But the same seller recently sold off-looking Nuevo
  Mercurio and Chelyabinsk, and has a documented history of mixing
  things up.
  Wouldn't touch it, myself.
  Regards,
  Jason

  www.fallsandfinds.com


  On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:41 PM, bill kies
 parkforest...@hotmail.com wrote:
  That slice seemed reasonable. I'm surprised it didn't sell.


  
  From: b1dunov...@aol.com
  Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 09:52:09 -0500
  To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
  Subject: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

  All,

  I wondered if anybody might offer some input or opinions on a 8.26g
 slice of Mifflin currently for sale on eBay.

  http://tiny.cc/tugmyw

  Great price if as stated.. but is it or not?

  Thanks,
  Brandon D.
  IMCA# 9312
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Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

[Jason Utas]

To answer Bill and Mike,
That smaller slice looks good for Ash Creek to me, and the larger
(supposed Mifflin) looks about right to me as well.  Yes, they're
similar, but...a little different.

The original Lonestar Meteorites fellow was somewhat obscure,
definitely on the up-and-up.   But, John Bryan Scarborough switched
his ebay handle to a similar name some months ago.  Documented
misrepresented material has included Deport, Ash Creek, Mifflin, and
Oum Dreyga.  Off-looking specimens that were never analytically
verified have included several others.

Even experienced, well-regarded dealers make mistakes from time to
time, but at some point it's just a bit much...

Jason


www.fallsandfinds.com


On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:51 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 The fact that the label is for Springwater seems to be a problem to me.
 I also think it is more likely Ash Creek.
 Who is Lonestar meteorites? Wasn't that a known scammer?
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 13, 2013, at 8:46 PM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello Bill, Brandon, Mendy, all,
 Honestly, this slice doesn't look bad.  If you compare the breccias:

 (real, from a stone found by Sonny Clary)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MUSEUM-QUALITY-CRUSTED-FULL-SLICE-MAGNIFICENT-MIFFLIN-METEORITE-L5-12-57-GMS-/200687083720?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2eb9e1e0c8

 (?)
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/MIFFLIN-L5-METEORITE-8-26g-BEAUTIFUL-CRUSTED-SLICE-WITNESSED-FALL-4-14-2010-/271220743348?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3f26041cb4nma=truesi=jHrsL50utK2qqpfbNFqr9%252BcmQSM%253Dorig_cvip=truert=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 It looks good.  The textures are close, if not identical.  But, we
 know the same seller sliced and sold an unclassified NWA L/LL as
 Amgala (proven via photographic comparison of sister slices by another
 list-member).  And, we know the variety of NWAs available.  It would
 be tough to find a match this good.  But not impossible.

 Mendy suggested Ash Creek -- they're close, but the brecciated portion
 of Ash Creek is almost always a lighter grey color and the
 unbrecciated lasts look a little more homogenous (makes sense, since
 Ash Creek is an L6 and Mifflin's an L5).  Definitely discernible in a
 line-up of photos.

 Meh.  If I really wanted a slice of Mifflin, I'd probably buy this
 slice.  But I'd scrutinize the hell of out of it, ask him for his
 source, and verify provenance as far as I could with photos, weights,
 invoices, etc.  Not a purchase I'd personally consider.  But it is
 cheap - if it's real.

 Jason



 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Bill,

 To Jason's point, is this past auction Ash Creek, Mifflin or something 
 else: http://bit.ly/13FM9Aw?

 Compare this Ash Creek to the present Mifflin being discussed.


 Mendy Ouzillou


 - Original Message -
 From: bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com
 To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:23 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

 Let's forget the seller for the moment. Why is this not Mifflin and what
 other material do you think it could be?

 Thanks,
 Bill

 --
 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:15:43 -0700
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay
 From: meteorite...@gmail.com
 To: parkforest...@hotmail.com
 CC: b1dunov...@aol.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

 Hello Bill, Brandon, All,
 Given the seller, I'm surprised anyone would consider it without a
 very good photographic record of provenance. Could be Mifflin: looks
 better than most of the H-chondrite misrepresented material that was
 going around. But the same seller recently sold off-looking Nuevo
 Mercurio and Chelyabinsk, and has a documented history of mixing
 things up.
 Wouldn't touch it, myself.
 Regards,
 Jason

 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:41 PM, bill kies
 parkforest...@hotmail.com wrote:
 That slice seemed reasonable. I'm surprised it didn't sell.


 
 From: b1dunov...@aol.com
 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 09:52:09 -0500
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Mifflin meteorite for sale on EBay

 All,

 I wondered if anybody might offer some input or opinions on a 8.26g
 slice of Mifflin currently for sale on eBay.

 http://tiny.cc/tugmyw

 Great price if as stated.. but is it or not?

 Thanks,
 Brandon D.
 IMCA# 9312
 __

 Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
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Re: [meteorite-list] Misabled/ poorly advertized meteorites

[Jason Utas]

Hm.  I said as much when I saw the Bondoc label on facebook some days
ago.  My comment describing the issue with the label has since been
removed by Martin.

The labels are computer-printed (notice the bottom of every g
missing on the Bondoc label) and the font and underlining is wrong for
AML labels.  The pictured labels even use the typical European  , 
instead of a  .  when describing the weights of the specimens [
xxx,x grams ].  And then there's the glossy paper...

Painfully obvious fakes, probably made in Europe given the punctuation.

I wonder where they came from...and why my observations were not only
ignored, but erased.

Jason



www.fallsandfinds.com


On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 I'm pretty sure the piece sold as Estherville is not a meteorite as well. It 
 certainly does not match up with my other Estherville pieces.
 I would like to know where this material originated. The labels are fake, and 
 I am highly disappointed that this stuff has entered the market.

 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPad

 On May 31, 2013, at 9:24 PM, Jeff Kuyken i...@meteorites.com.au wrote:

 Hi Mike, all,

 As an Aussie, I can say with 100% absolute certainty that this isn't
 Murchison. It's not even close. In fact, I'm actually wondering it's a
 meteorite at all as it looks more like some type of porphyritic rock. The
 only meteorite I have seen that looks even remotely like this would be a CV3
 dark inclusion. But the rectangular fragment on the back side doesn't bode
 well for a chondritic meteorite either. It would be easier to tell
 in-person.

 Cheers,

 Jeff


 -Original Message-
 From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael
 Farmer
 Sent: Saturday, 1 June 2013 12:52 PM
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Misabled/ poorly advertized meteorites

 Martin,

 I am sorry but this IS NOT Murchison, and the Estherville IS NOT
 Estherville.
 I emailed you regarding the Murchison and the fact that the photos clearly
 show an NWA type old carbonaceous chondrite only minutes after you posted to
 the list, and got no response.
 Anyone who has ever laid eyes on Murchison knows that it does not have
 desert varnish on the outside, nor white chondrules and CAI's on a CV3
 matrix.
 I feel sorry for whoever got burned on that one. You advertised the low
 price, I guess it is low because it is not Murchison.

 anyone reading this, feel free to speak up and tell us how this Murchison
 looks compared to real Murchison.
 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_004.JPG
 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_003.JPG
 http://www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Murchison_8_13_g_001.JPG


 I bought the Estherville which you claim is from American Meteorite
 Laboratory.
 I assumed since you advertised and showed a label that it was real, I was
 reading my email on an iphone while at the Laboratory in ASU, I showed the
 photo of the Murchison to the people in the lab who just laughed.
 My spider senses were not in order obviously because I went ahead and paid
 for the Estherville. I received it today, and it is NOT Estherville, I am
 pretty certain it is not a meteorite. The crust looks fake, or slaggy. I
 have more than 50 pieces of Estherville all from British Museum and
 Smithsonian, and this isn't close. Furthemore the lable is nothing more than
 a printed piece of paper laminated.
 I have the Nininger and Huss collections of meteorites books, and
 Estherville under Nininger is #42, Huss is H230. Again, some homework on my
 part would have caused me to not purchase this piece, but the price was good
 and I thought it would sell fast (I bought it in seconds). It is a firm
 reminder that something too cheap to be true, isn't!

 You piece has no number on the stone (
 Nininger and Huss both would have matched the number on the label and
 painted it on the stone).
 And the AML number on the fake label is not matched up to their normal
 numbers (yours is (2) 680.501. This is not a Nininger or Huss number

 You claim in your email (attached with this one below for all to read), that
 these pieces have their passports IE American Meteorite Laboratory labels
 as provenance, yet you deliver to me a fake printed laminated label done on
 a computer.
 Martin, this is NOT PROVENANCE, this is pretty much outright FRAUD!

 I know you have been doing meteorites for a while, and I know Murchison is
 easily one of the easiest meteorites to identify, so I have to question what
 is going on when such a false piece can pass the hands of such an
 experienced seller?
 This Estherville is not an Estherville, it is not a Nininger or Huss piece
 as advertised, and I do not think it is even a meteorite.
 I put in a request for refund via paypal, and now I am making the same
 request publically.
 I don't know where you got these but you got burned.

 I will deliver it by hand in 

Re: [meteorite-list] meteorites sold from Europe, not as described

[Jason Utas]

If you take Bondoc, the specimen numbers are absolutely consistent with all
the numbers of the Huss-Bondocs offered by Geoff Notkin, or at Arnaud in the
Tricottet Collection or on Murray’s fine new collection site or those Peter
Marmet showed us.

Yes, but the rear (and cut face of it) look like slag compared to
other Bondocs on the market.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0_nkw=bondoc+meteorite_sacat=0_from=R40

There are a variety of textures, but none so porous, and the knobbly
back and metal distribution look rather like slag.  Such observations
are not conclusive, but...meh.

I'd return or ditch the material.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi Mike and all,


 it’s really always sad, to experience, what internet did to some, regarding
 communication, couth and manners.
 As told yesterday to you, as you are obviously not content with the
 specimen, we offered you to send in back and to refund you.
 Your temper and your readiness to doom and damn each and everyone in public,
 as soon as an opportunity shows up, is legendary on that list here,
 as the archives tell manifold and that behavior caused so many new
 collectors to turn their backs on to their new hobby, when they read your
 endless flame wars here on the list, because they had imagined meteorite
 collecting more august than to witness brawls on the fish-market.

 Here you can observe a difference about Andi’s and my notion of the
 meteorite scene, we never took advantage in trying to badmouth you, when you
 sold e.g. a “Bensour” of 85g to S.A. which landed with your label at M.V.,
 who asked you again and you identified it without doubts as Bensour, but
 after he cut it, it turned out to be H and rather a Bassikonou.

 To the specimens.
 They originally stem from an old private collection from Hungary. A
 collection from pre-desert times.
 As you might remember even from the times, when you were still peddling with
 your little bag with your sales inventory from client to client,
 in former times, the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s – the idea of
 “pedigree”-collecting wasn’t born yet, the fascination emanating from the
 specimens  themselves, the fact that they were meteorites, was for the
 collectors overwhelming enough, so that they did not need the little
 extra-boost of having a written note, from whom they had acquired them
 (because they knew it anyway). Hence they were proud on the specimens as
 they were now their specimens, so they wrote their own labels and threw
 often the labels of the sellers/source away.
 I don’t know how many specimens you acquired from private collections of
 these times, but you will agree, that the majority of such specimens comes
 without any label or they come with the label of the collector, and we at
 least had dozens of cases, where the old original label was preserved, but
 where the collector had cut off the part with the name of the dealer or the
 museum.
 Here with these two specimens of Estherville and Bondoc, it was a luck, that
 the labels – why the collector enlarged and laminated once them we don’t
 know, maybe for his collection filing box – gave the hint, where the
 collector once had acquired them from.
 They were Huss specimens. And Huss at that time wasn’t the glorified
 successor of Nininger, he was nothing else than a dealer for his
 contemporaries, just like today, a Hupe, a Haiderer or a Cottingham for us.

 If you take Bondoc, the specimen numbers are absolutely consistent with all
 the numbers of the Huss-Bondocs offered by Geoff Notkin, or at Arnaud in the
 Tricottet Collection or on Murray’s fine new collection site or those Peter
 Marmet showed us.
 Btw. none of these is listed in the both Huss-catalogues, none of these got
 a number painted on the surface by Huss.
 (We would have expected you to know that, as U.S.-expert)

 As told, we are convinced of the authenticity of the specimens, as well as
 those esteemed list members, who had them already in their hands.
 And as it is our policy, we offer always a return to our private buyers.
 So thank you Anne, Jeff and Mike for your efforts, to keep the “Market”
 clean, but we don’t see yet any reason for hysteria.
 (Aside from the likeliness, that we after 33 years of meteorite collecting
 and 10+ years meteorite dealing, would have nothing better to do,
 than to forge Esthervilles and Bondocs and to fake a legend, to sell them at
 those cheapest prices we did).

 However, and there you most probably will agree,
 we see no sense in a written theoretical discussion here on the list, but
 like it the sober way.
 You’ll bring the Estherville to Ensisheim, we got so many requests for that
 very specimen and there are so many experts,
 who will identify it as that, what it is, that we won’t be in no way
 reluctant or shy to show the specimen to each and everyone,
 who wants.
 Therefore we will adjourn the further theatre, if 

[meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
And the red crust isn't just found on trailing faces of stones:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/meteorite-Chelyabinsk-chondrite-LL5-complete-stone-14-65-g-recent-fall-Russia-/161029553312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item257e1bfca0nma=truesi=jHrsL50utK2qqpfbNFqr9%252BcmQSM%253Dorig_cvip=truert=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It's been seen on stones from just about every reasonably-sized L and
LL multiple-stone fall I can think of, and has been discussed on the
list as far back as 2007, if not earlier.  Similar stones have been
noted from Breja, Bensour, Battle Mountain, Ash Creek, Mifflin, etc.
This list seems to have a short memory.

For those who are curious, magnetite content is a bit vague.  The
difference in fusion crust coloration is most likely caused by the
oxidative state of the iron in the fusion crust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_oxide

If we assume that water is not abundant in the fusion crust due to the
high heat necessary to form a fusion crust (perhaps wrong, but
simplifies things), we have three oxides to work with:

--
From above:

Wüstite (FeO) is a mineral form of iron (II) oxide found with
meteorites and native iron. *It has a gray color with a greenish tint
in reflected light.*

Magnetite is a mineral, one of the two common naturally occurring iron
oxides (chemical formula Fe3O4). Magnetite has been very important in
understanding the conditions under which rocks form. Magnetite reacts
with oxygen to produce hematite, and the mineral pair forms a buffer
that can control oxygen fugacity. *Generally black or silvery, can
have a brownish tint.*

Iron (III) oxide or ferric oxide is the inorganic compound with the
formula Fe2O3. We'd most likely be dealing with alpha-phase ferric
oxide because it is the most stable Fe2O3 phase over ~500°C.  This
one's also called hematite. *Fe2O3 is dark red.*
--

The wikipedia page above links to nice summaries of the hydrous oxides
as well, if you want to check them out.

The variables we have to work with are: the amount of iron in the
meteorite, plus abundances of other minerals that could affect oxide
or other mineral formation in the crust.  Fragment shape and
orientation probably control oxygen flow to given areas (see link
below) but also --

...the entry speed/angle and breakup height would probably help to
determine the rate of ablation/deceleration of given fragments (e.g.
the point at which fusion crust will remain on the surface of the
meteorite versus ablating away), which would also affect the
temperature at which the remaining fusion crust formed (a potential
variable controlling the oxidative state of iron?).  Either way, since
access to oxygen seems to determine the redness of the fusion crust,
altitude of fragmentation is probably quite important.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-Meteorite-Fall-from-Feb-15th-2013-in-Russia-7-098-grams-/111073775576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item19dc834fd8

^One of the better examples currently on ebay, with topographically
low areas that clearly show reddening/browning.

In short, yes, hematite is red, so hematite content is a good
candidate for the 'reddening agent.'

But, then...why don't H chondrites usually form such red fusion
crusts?  It might be due to the higher iron content in H-chondrites
and the ratio of iron to oxygen in the above three oxides.  Fe2O3
(hematite) has the lowest Fe to O ratio of the above three minerals
(1:1 vs. 3:4 vs. 2:3), so a meteorite that is higher in iron might be
less likely to form a lower-iron oxide (hematite) in the same
conditions.  But this seems somewhat unlikely, as this hypothesized
cutoff for hematite formation in the crust would depend on the
difference in the modal abundance of Fe in L's versus H's, and that's
not a clear boundary.  One would have to look at the metal content of
various larger multiple falls and examine large numbers of pristine
stones from each in order to reach a well-supported answer to that
question.

Chelyabinsk does support this general hypothesis, though.  It broke up
at a lower altitude than most bolides do, so fragments should have
been exposed to a thicker atmosphere/more oxygen in their final
ablative stages of flight.  Because of this, we'd expect to see more
iron oxides with higher ratios of oxygen to iron in the fusion crust
(e.g. our red hematite) .  Lo and behold, we're seeing more stones
with reddish fusion crusts than usual.  This could be a coincidence,
but...perhaps not.

One should also note that many Chelyabinsks aren't just black or
reddish.  Many are an unusual lighter brown/grey color:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/meteorite-Chelyabinsk-chondrite-LL5-complete-stone-13-14-g-recent-fall-Russia-/161034404036?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item257e6600c4

That's a color I've never seen before on an OC, but many Chelyabinsks
show it.  Could higher levels of (grey/metallic) magnetite be the
cause?  I wonder...and if that's the case, I'd be curious to know why
this is specifically happening with Chelyabinsk 

Re: [meteorite-list] Red(dish) Fusion Crust

[Jason Utas]

Hola,
Looking at his pagethe Buzzard is red to a much lesser extent.
Good observation, though -- it makes sense that H's would still show
at least some hematite presence, if that is was causes the red
coloration.

The first link in my last email goes against what you say above.  Note
that the pictured stone has a black, frothy rear and a reddish
shield-shaped front.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi,

But, then...why don't H chondrites usually form such red fusion crusts?

 But they do,
 the example on Svend's page is a Buzzard Coulee, and in literature you read
 it about Pultusk.

This list seems to have a short memory.

 Well, the specialty here, is that a colour variation in the crust, if found
 only on one side, can be used as criterion for orientation. Most of the
 examples shown here, underline, that stones must have had at least a longer
 phase of stable flight, because it is indicated by the lipping around the
 edges of these sides. (Which identify the coloured sides as backsides).

 Best,
 Martin


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[meteorite-list] New Fall in Namibia!

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
This turned up today:

http://www.hitradio.com.na/9-5-2013-nachrichten-am-abend/

This morning around 4:00 clock is a meteorite about 10km outside of
Outapi toward Onesimus, pitched region in northern Namibia in the
Omusati. The meteorite is the size of a tennis ball. According to
eyewitnesses, Olaff Marais, a white light lit up the night sky. It was
heard a loud roar and then a bang. There were no persons injured or
property damaged. The police have cordoned off the crash site wide
area. You can find pictures on the hit radio Namibia Facebook page.

Looks good.
Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
What Mendy said is correct.
There is a $1 million minimum in online sales in the current draft
(indisputable fact), and some politicians have suggested raising it to
$10 million.  In other words, unless you gross over a million dollars
in online sales, you will not have to collect or pay this tax.

http://www.extremetech.com/internet/154397-us-senate-inches-closer-to-approving-historic-internet-sales-tax-bill

[You can find better sources online, but this ^ summarizes things
pretty well.]

Adam's point is somewhat moot, as sales tax is nothing new for most
brick-and-mortar businesses.  And we have only one such meteorite
store in existence, to my knowledge (Steve Arnold's shop in Arkansas).
 I'm not certain as to how businesses like this would have to deal
with the new internet tax, but since in-state online sales are already
taxed (even from small independent, online-only sellers), I can't see
this as being very important.  The $1,000,000 online sales minimum
might apply to tangible businesses as well.  I'm not sure; that would
take some looking into.

Unless meteorite dealers make more than $1,000,000 per year in online
sales, they can relax.  I'm not a fan of this bill, but it will not
affect my selling much.  I might buy some more run-of-the-mill things
at tangible stores if this goes into effect, but there's no real risk
of people doing that with meteorites.  If anything, this will probably
encourage me to buy from smaller, independent sellers online.  Thanks
to the million dollar minimum, they will still be tax-free.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Don't let politicians fool you.  They are talking about taxing at the 
 point-of-sale, meaning where the item is shipped from.  In this case, 
 possibly somebodies living room or garage!  If you own a brick and mortar 
 Meteorite Store, you are already expected to collect these taxes including 
 100% of sales online. There is no one million dollar annual sales exemption.  
 There aren't too many dealers that own a storefront so at this point in time, 
 they are alright but this could change very shortly.


 Just like the Affordable Healthcare Act is the largest tax increase in U.S. 
 history and it was sneakily forced upon American citizens.  Just wait until 
 2014.  A lot of people who simply cannot afford healthcare will be fined on 
 top of the massive tax increases.

 Adam





 - Original Message -
 From: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com
 To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Met-List 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 1:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

 Adam,


 Very timely post. I just read the following article (http://reut.rs/ZBTsVY). 
 Regardless whether the bill passes or not, the impact on almost ALL meteorite 
 dealers is nil. Here is the key excerpt from the article, It would also 
 exempt merchants with online annual out-of-state sales of $1 million or less.

 I am personally on my way to $1M in sales this year and will gladly pay the 
 extra tax when I reach my goal. I have till December 31 to sell another 
 $995,000.  Wish me luck. ;-)

 Mendy Ouzillou



 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes


Not only do we need to worry about eBay's new flawed international shipping 
ideas causing an increase in oversees shipment prices, we have to worry about 
a domestic increase in sales taxes so we have problems on both fronts.

Yes, our wonderful government (the senate) think that it is time that all 
online sellers should become tax collectors for their respective states.  
Those who host websites may be the first to start collecting around 10% in 
states sales taxes from every sale.

We need leadership more than ever in these financially depressed times.  Big 
government and the Post Office think that raising prices and taxes 
substantially is the solution during a depression?  Hello, Is there anybody 
at the helm?  Where is the Commander With A Few Teeth when you need some 
form of leadership?


Raising taxes and fees during a depression is kicking somebody when they have 
already been knocked down.

Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

[Jason Utas]

 the finders who
 contacted me to forward that data to Dr. Jenniskens.  From that point
 on, I stopped collecting coordinates and just focused on finds,
 finder's name and weights, to calculate the TKW.

 After that, I was still getting oodles of emails, full of photos and
 questions.  I weeded out the meteorwrongs and forwarded the legitimate
 finds to Jenniskens.  Numerous times, finders contacted me first and I
 always sent them to Jenniskens.

 If there was no official page by SETI/NASA/Whoever, I would have
 continued the tally and would have included find coordinates.  I was
 glad that Jenniskens was handling the coordinates, because that
 lessened my work load a bit.

 I did this for science and to help people work together to share data.
  And I expect, that if I had not done it, somebody else would have
 stepped forward to do it.

 Best regards,

 MikeG


 On 5/1/13, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello All,
 1) I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill.  Dr.
 Jenniskens went through the work of obtaining the type specimen and he
 should be able to work on it as he sees fit.  If that delays the
 publication of the meteorite for a few months, it doesn't matter.
 Doing so does not adversely affect anyone or anything, in any way.

 2) Carl -- I think the difference here is that the stone has had all
 of the work necessary for approval completed, but it is being held up
 so that Dr. Jenniskens can oversee the additional work that is being
 done.  If he had given the type sample to UCLA earlier on, he might
 not have been able to accommodate sample requests (and he has been
 very forthcoming with doing so), so I think it's less a matter of
 control as one of opportunity.  Many of the studies that have been
 performed on the rock are not often done on equilibrated ordinary
 chondrites.  It's still valuable information, but not data that is
 usually included in a Meteoritical Bulletin writeup.

 Which isn't to say that UCLA is not capable of doing the same,
 butnone of this matters.  The stone will be approved and UCLA will
 get their type specimen.  Since Dr. Rubin already received a small
 sample in order to describe the stone petrographically, he is included
 in the consortium and will be a co-author in any publications turned
 out by it (thus rendering Michael Farmer's most recent criticism
 somewhat moot).  Since Dr. Jenniskens did put in a lot of trajectory
 calculation/outreach/recovery effort, I don't see why he's not
 entitled to work on the specimen first.

 3) The destructive work mentioned by some in a negative light includes
 many studies outlined here:

 http://asima.seti.org/n/

 Stuff like Ar-Ar dating, raman spectroscopy, and other studies require
 the dissolution or otherwise destruction of small portions of the
 meteorite.  It's standard procedure.  Most of those kinds of studies
 aren't performed on your average equilibrated chondrite fall, though,
 so...be glad that it's happening with this one.  More of this kind of
 information could help us better understand the histories of these
 bodies in the solar system.

 So for those of you saying that SETI/Dr. Jenniskens is doing things
 they can't or shouldn'tthey're not.  They're just organizing
 things.

 4) Having met with Lisa Webber and Glen Rivera a few times after they
 handed N#1 over to Dr. Jenniskens, I don't think Richard Montgomery's
 statement holds any water, either.  They seemed genuinely happy to
 provide the stone for analysis. I can't see how or why that would have
 changed in the time since then, since they had already handed over the
 stone and clearly expected ~20+ grams to go to an institution.

 5) Some people seem to not like Dr. Jenniskens.  I loaned them N#5 for
 non-destructive work and picked it up in person last Friday night.
 SETI's pretty cool, and they seem to be doing good work, most of it
 pertaining to asteroids, near-Earth/Earth-crossing bodies, Mars, and a
 variety of other things.  This kind of thing is really right up their
 alley.

 6) Michael Mulgrew's recent comment makes no sense to me.  Every
 meteorite must be studied to some extent prior to publication, or it
 could not be published.  Some meteorites require O-isotope analyses,
 some require trapped gas analyses, and others require only a few
 mineralogical data points and a petrographic description.  Where to
 draw that line can be somewhat arbitrary, but one must be careful.
 There was some confusion a few years ago because O-isotope data was
 not obtained on a new NWA acapulcoite, and it was classified as an
 winonaite.  Later pairings were worked on more thoroughly.  Novato is
 a little different because we all know it's an L6, but still.  The
 write-up in the bulletin will reflect the variety of analyses
 performed on the rock, I'm sure.  Since most folks wouldn't go through
 the trouble of doing this much work on an L6, I'm glad that someone is
 organizing it.

 7) Re: Jim's comments about find numbers

Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

[Jason Utas]

Hello Jim, All,
As others have said -- it probably depends on the state.  At least
here in CA, paying sales tax is required for only online sales to
buyers within CA.  Ebay/Paypal have always enforced those taxes on me
when I've bought things.

Anne has just said something similar about Colorado.  Gary seems to
have it a bit tougher in Hawaii.  I don't know how it works elsewhere.

I can't see how this new law would hurt small sellers, though.  Since
only the companies making more than a million per year will have to
charge/pay taxes on inter-state sales, if anything, it gives an
advantage to the folks selling under that range.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jim Wooddell
jim.woodd...@suddenlink.net wrote:
 I have to disagree with the brick and mortar comment.  any legitimate 
 licensed business, whether it is you in your office living room or your car, 
 is generally require to collect sales tax, or in Arizona, the transaction 
 privilege tax.  I think the only reason a lot of people get away with not 
 paying the tax, is that many states do not take the time to audit.  it is 
 costing them millions of dollars per year.
 Jim

 Jim Wooddell - Mobile

 Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:

Don't let politicians fool you.  They are talking about taxing at the 
point-of-sale, meaning where the item is shipped from.  In this case, 
possibly somebodies living room or garage!  If you own a brick and mortar 
Meteorite Store, you are already expected to collect these taxes including 
100% of sales online. There is no one million dollar annual sales exemption.  
There aren't too many dealers that own a storefront so at this point in time, 
they are alright but this could change very shortly.


Just like the Affordable Healthcare Act is the largest tax increase in U.S. 
history and it was sneakily forced upon American citizens.  Just wait until 
2014.  A lot of people who simply cannot afford healthcare will be fined on 
top of the massive tax increases.

Adam





- Original Message -
From: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com
To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com; Met-List 
meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Cc:
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

Adam,


Very timely post. I just read the following article (http://reut.rs/ZBTsVY). 
Regardless whether the bill passes or not, the impact on almost ALL meteorite 
dealers is nil. Here is the key excerpt from the article, It would also 
exempt merchants with online annual out-of-state sales of $1 million or less.

I am personally on my way to $1M in sales this year and will gladly pay the 
extra tax when I reach my goal. I have till December 31 to sell another 
$995,000.  Wish me luck. ;-)

Mendy Ouzillou



 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes


Not only do we need to worry about eBay's new flawed international shipping 
ideas causing an increase in oversees shipment prices, we have to worry 
about a domestic increase in sales taxes so we have problems on both fronts.

Yes, our wonderful government (the senate) think that it is time that all 
online sellers should become tax collectors for their respective states.  
Those who host websites may be the first to start collecting around 10% in 
states sales taxes from every sale.

We need leadership more than ever in these financially depressed times.  Big 
government and the Post Office think that raising prices and taxes 
substantially is the solution during a depression?  Hello, Is there anybody 
at the helm?  Where is the Commander With A Few Teeth when you need some 
form of leadership?


Raising taxes and fees during a depression is kicking somebody when they 
have already been knocked down.

Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay, Websites and State Taxes

[Jason Utas]

 Adam,
You're not telling the truth.

SMALL SELLER EXCEPTION.-A State is authorized to require a remote
seller to collect sales and use taxes under this Act only if the
remote seller has gross annual receipts in total remote sales in the
United States in the preceding calendar year exceeding $1,000,000. For
purposes of determining whether the threshold in this sub­section is
met-

1) the sales of all persons related within the meaning of subsections
(b) and (c) of section 267 or section 707(b)(1) of the Internal
Revenue Code of 1986 shall be aggregated; or
2) persons with 1 or more ownership relationships shall also be
aggregated if such relationships were designed with a principal
purpose of avoiding the application of these rules.

http://www.marketplacefairness.org/bill-text/

This also clears up the issue of whether or not a brick-and-mortar
store would have to accrue a total of $1,000,000 in sales -- versus
$1,000,000 in exclusively internet sales -- before being forced to
pay/charge taxes on online purchases.  It's internet-only.  In other
words, if your business grosses ~$1,500,000 in in-store sales, but
only sells $500,000 of merchandise online, you still wouldn't have to
pay any online sales tax.  Unless your state has preexisting
provisions that require you to do so.

Furthermore, the enforcement of this tax policy will be up to the
states.  In other words, they can choose to enforce it (or not) as
they see fit.

I'd read the document; it's only five pages.

Regards,
Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 7:09 PM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com wrote:
 Adam,
 You're not telling the truth.
 
 SMALL SELLER EXCEPTION.-A State is authorized to require a remote
 seller to collect sales and use taxes under this Act only if the
 remote seller has gross annual receipts in total remote sales in the
 United States in the preceding calendar year exceeding $1,000,000. For
 purposes of determining whether the threshold in this sub­section is
 met-

 1) the sales of all persons related within the meaning of subsections
 (b) and (c) of section 267 or section 707(b)(1) of the Internal
 Revenue Code of 1986 shall be aggregated; or
 2) persons with 1 or more ownership relationships shall also be
 aggregated if such relationships were designed with a principal
 purpose of avoiding the application of these rules.
 
 http://www.marketplacefairness.org/bill-text/

 This also clears up the issue of whether or not a brick-and-mortar
 store would have to accrue a total of $1,000,000 in sales -- versus
 $1,000,000 in exclusively internet sales -- before being forced to
 pay/charge taxes on online purchases.  It's internet-only.  In other
 words, if your business grosses ~$1,500,000 in in-store sales, but
 only sells $500,000 of merchandise online, you still wouldn't have to
 pay any online sales tax.  Unless your state has preexisting
 provisions that require you to do so.

 Furthermore, the enforcement of this tax policy will be up to the
 states.  In other words, they can choose to enforce it (or not) as
 they see fit.

 I'd read the document; it's only five pages.

 Regards,
 Jason

 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Jason Wrote:

 *
 I can't see how this new law would hurt small sellers, though.  Since
 only the companies making more than a million per year will have to
 charge/pay taxes on inter-state sales, if anything, it gives an
 advantage to the folks selling under that range.
 *

 Don't be so naive. This bill allows states to make all sellers collect taxes 
 on their behalf and there is no real one million dollar exclusion: read the 
 small print.  Just like the Affordable Healthcare Act was supposed make 
 healthcare affordable.  Instead it was just one massive deceptive tax 
 increase that will punish those who can least afford healthcare with fines.

 I have no idea why the feds are involved in state business in the first 
 place.  It is all driven by weak politicians who are being pressured by 
 large companies like Amazon who want online market share.

 At least here in Nevada, there are no state corporate taxes.

 Adam
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Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

[Jason Utas]

Hello Greg,

After getting turned down a few times, I started asking a few
questions of the landowners who said they were committed to only
NASA coming onto their land.

Turns out a few private hunters whose names I won't mention decided to
say that they were working with NASA, and they told landowners not to
let (other) private hunters on their land.

Kind of made sense after I recalled that we'd run into one of the two
men earlier in the field, and his truck had a NASA sticker in the
window.  Before he recognized me, he told me he was working with NASA,
but I hadn't thought anything of it.

I suppose Dr. Jennisken's team could have been doing similar things,
but that wasn't the impression I got in the field.  The stories about
NASA being so tough was largely being told by one of the
aforementioned two hunters.

Go figure.

Jason

www.fallsandfinds.com


On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote:
 All,
 re: Navato, Sutter's Mill...

 I feel that the efforts of one individual purposely 'attempted' to drive a
 huge wedge between the private sector and the land owners starting at
 Sutter's Mill (I was not at Navato to witness first hand this, but read
 about it!!). During that meteorite event, that tactic worked initially but
 the stamina and longevity of private funds and professionalism fueled
 further local resident recoveries and financial motivation to find the
 Sutter's Mill stones yet to be discovered.

 To further challenge the antic's of the 'NASA' representative, I believe the
 PRIVATE sector donated a greater portion of the specimens being studied
 around the world as we speak!!

 My only issue is when one 'pro' distorts the truth to a point where the
 unknowing believe it true because it comes from a 'NASA' representative!!

 Greg

 -Original Message- From: Jason Utas
 Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 9:15 PM
 To: Jim Wooddell ; Michael Gilmer ; Meteorite-list

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

 Hello Jim, Michael,
 I'll be frank: I do not believe that the majority of meteorite hunters
 and especially locals would have reached out to submit their find data
 had not an official/NASA online tally been published.

 At the very least, I think we can all agree that you would have
 collected *as much* data as did Dr. Jenniskens.  Many locals clearly
 wanted nothing to do with private meteorite hunters, and the
 importance of SM numbers was only realized when the stone
 weights/locations/finder's names were published on the NASA-affiliated
 website.

 We all appreciate the work you put into it, and you probably did as
 good of a job as you could have, but the locals in the field were very
 excited about being involved with a NASA/SETI project, and that helped
 to drive many of the submissions.

 With regards to Novato:

 Without Dr. Jenniskens' efforts (published fireball trajectory
 estimates and his description of what to look for), Novato #1 would
 not have been recognized, and we do not know whether or not any of the
 subsequent finds would have been made.  The entire fall could easily
 have been missed.

 Instead, thanks to the newspaper articles about the fireball (with
 information from Dr. Jenniskens), Novato #1 was recovered.  Once we
 had that data point, we knew where to look.  It also gave us greater
 incentive to look in general.  It's much harder to motivate getting
 out to hunt when you're *pretty sure* rocks made it to the ground, but
 know little else about where they might be.  You wind up spending less
 time in the right areas, etc.

 His subsequent outreach efforts subsequently yielded Novato #6.

 I think that would make him indirectly one of the most successful
 hunters of the strewn-field.  He was responsible for the discovery of
 Novato stones #1 and #6, and the information he published indirectly
 led to the recovery of...everything else.

 Stanfield will be another case of a poorly documented fall unless the
 coordinates are eventually made 'public' on Galactic Analytics.  I'm
 not saying there are rules that must be adhered to or anything like
 that, but the way things are generally being done is unscientific.  If
 data is being lost, it's a shame.  That's about it.  I don't think
 anyone can argue with the fact that it's nice to see the data at some
 point, and to make a strewn-field map.  If it's an important fall like
 Sutter's Mill, it helps to recover more, too.

 Also, Dr. Rubin pointed out he was the one the distributed with was

 sent to him, not Peter.

 The sample was forwarded to Dr. Rubin from the sample obtained by Dr.
 Jenniskens, I believe -- from Novato #1.  Not sure exactly what you
 mean.

 Regards,
 Jason


 www.fallsandfinds.com


 On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Jim Wooddell jimwoodd...@gmail.com wrote:

  Jason,

 And keep in mind I was the one maintaining the filed data field for
 the Garmin GPS  (gdp) files daily on the project and GE KMZ for finds.
  Not all meteorites found have SM numbers.  Can not speak

Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
1) I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill.  Dr.
Jenniskens went through the work of obtaining the type specimen and he
should be able to work on it as he sees fit.  If that delays the
publication of the meteorite for a few months, it doesn't matter.
Doing so does not adversely affect anyone or anything, in any way.

2) Carl -- I think the difference here is that the stone has had all
of the work necessary for approval completed, but it is being held up
so that Dr. Jenniskens can oversee the additional work that is being
done.  If he had given the type sample to UCLA earlier on, he might
not have been able to accommodate sample requests (and he has been
very forthcoming with doing so), so I think it's less a matter of
control as one of opportunity.  Many of the studies that have been
performed on the rock are not often done on equilibrated ordinary
chondrites.  It's still valuable information, but not data that is
usually included in a Meteoritical Bulletin writeup.

Which isn't to say that UCLA is not capable of doing the same,
butnone of this matters.  The stone will be approved and UCLA will
get their type specimen.  Since Dr. Rubin already received a small
sample in order to describe the stone petrographically, he is included
in the consortium and will be a co-author in any publications turned
out by it (thus rendering Michael Farmer's most recent criticism
somewhat moot).  Since Dr. Jenniskens did put in a lot of trajectory
calculation/outreach/recovery effort, I don't see why he's not
entitled to work on the specimen first.

3) The destructive work mentioned by some in a negative light includes
many studies outlined here:

http://asima.seti.org/n/

Stuff like Ar-Ar dating, raman spectroscopy, and other studies require
the dissolution or otherwise destruction of small portions of the
meteorite.  It's standard procedure.  Most of those kinds of studies
aren't performed on your average equilibrated chondrite fall, though,
so...be glad that it's happening with this one.  More of this kind of
information could help us better understand the histories of these
bodies in the solar system.

So for those of you saying that SETI/Dr. Jenniskens is doing things
they can't or shouldn'tthey're not.  They're just organizing
things.

4) Having met with Lisa Webber and Glen Rivera a few times after they
handed N#1 over to Dr. Jenniskens, I don't think Richard Montgomery's
statement holds any water, either.  They seemed genuinely happy to
provide the stone for analysis. I can't see how or why that would have
changed in the time since then, since they had already handed over the
stone and clearly expected ~20+ grams to go to an institution.

5) Some people seem to not like Dr. Jenniskens.  I loaned them N#5 for
non-destructive work and picked it up in person last Friday night.
SETI's pretty cool, and they seem to be doing good work, most of it
pertaining to asteroids, near-Earth/Earth-crossing bodies, Mars, and a
variety of other things.  This kind of thing is really right up their
alley.

6) Michael Mulgrew's recent comment makes no sense to me.  Every
meteorite must be studied to some extent prior to publication, or it
could not be published.  Some meteorites require O-isotope analyses,
some require trapped gas analyses, and others require only a few
mineralogical data points and a petrographic description.  Where to
draw that line can be somewhat arbitrary, but one must be careful.
There was some confusion a few years ago because O-isotope data was
not obtained on a new NWA acapulcoite, and it was classified as an
winonaite.  Later pairings were worked on more thoroughly.  Novato is
a little different because we all know it's an L6, but still.  The
write-up in the bulletin will reflect the variety of analyses
performed on the rock, I'm sure.  Since most folks wouldn't go through
the trouble of doing this much work on an L6, I'm glad that someone is
organizing it.

7) Re: Jim's comments about find numbers (and apparently bragging
rights) -- No.  Without the 'consortium,' publicly posted numbers,
etc. we would have much less of an idea of where/how many of the
Sutter's Mill meteorites were recovered.  The majority of the
information shared on the SETI website would not be known, the strewn
field would be poorly known (relative to now), etc.  And the fall is
now well-documented, and the information is publicly shared.  That's
worth a heck of a lot.

How many of you checked the SETI website for updates while hunting for
SM or N?  Yeah.  Useful.

Really not sure where all of the criticism is coming from.  This
meteorite isn't lost.  It's not in limbo.  It's being studied and will
be approved.  This should be done with in a few months.  A scientist
wants to do a thorough job on it.  Sounds good to me.

Regards,
Jason



On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 I seem to think this is a control issue. Someone wants total control over the 
 meteorite. Sad 

Re: [meteorite-list] Novato update

[Jason Utas]

Hello Michael, Carl,
Michael: You're assuming far too much about his motives.
Carl: I think he's figured that out by now.  The delay still doesn't
affect anyone in a tangible way.
Regards,
Jason



On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 I'm just saying that in the scientific world the same bullshit seems to be
 happening as in the private sector. Everyone is guarding their territory and
 all for self gain. I am in Russia and I've
 been hunting more than a week and haven't seen scientist one out here in the
 mud. But I am sure I will hear crying when I am selling Chelyabinsk back
 home. I have already spread it throughout the world via donations and sales
 so all can work as they see fit without a boss overseer.
 At least I can admit it:)
 Mike

 Sent from my iPhone

 On May 2, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:

 Jason
 People can take as much time as they please before submittal for
 classification. All I am saying is that no science on it can be published at
 LPSC or MetSoc if it is not classified. Also the name Novato hasn't been
 approved.
 Carl Agee

 On May 1, 2013 11:50 AM, Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello All,
 1) I think this is making a mountain out of a molehill.  Dr.
 Jenniskens went through the work of obtaining the type specimen and he
 should be able to work on it as he sees fit.  If that delays the
 publication of the meteorite for a few months, it doesn't matter.
 Doing so does not adversely affect anyone or anything, in any way.

 2) Carl -- I think the difference here is that the stone has had all
 of the work necessary for approval completed, but it is being held up
 so that Dr. Jenniskens can oversee the additional work that is being
 done.  If he had given the type sample to UCLA earlier on, he might
 not have been able to accommodate sample requests (and he has been
 very forthcoming with doing so), so I think it's less a matter of
 control as one of opportunity.  Many of the studies that have been
 performed on the rock are not often done on equilibrated ordinary
 chondrites.  It's still valuable information, but not data that is
 usually included in a Meteoritical Bulletin writeup.

 Which isn't to say that UCLA is not capable of doing the same,
 butnone of this matters.  The stone will be approved and UCLA will
 get their type specimen.  Since Dr. Rubin already received a small
 sample in order to describe the stone petrographically, he is included
 in the consortium and will be a co-author in any publications turned
 out by it (thus rendering Michael Farmer's most recent criticism
 somewhat moot).  Since Dr. Jenniskens did put in a lot of trajectory
 calculation/outreach/recovery effort, I don't see why he's not
 entitled to work on the specimen first.

 3) The destructive work mentioned by some in a negative light includes
 many studies outlined here:

 http://asima.seti.org/n/

 Stuff like Ar-Ar dating, raman spectroscopy, and other studies require
 the dissolution or otherwise destruction of small portions of the
 meteorite.  It's standard procedure.  Most of those kinds of studies
 aren't performed on your average equilibrated chondrite fall, though,
 so...be glad that it's happening with this one.  More of this kind of
 information could help us better understand the histories of these
 bodies in the solar system.

 So for those of you saying that SETI/Dr. Jenniskens is doing things
 they can't or shouldn'tthey're not.  They're just organizing
 things.

 4) Having met with Lisa Webber and Glen Rivera a few times after they
 handed N#1 over to Dr. Jenniskens, I don't think Richard Montgomery's
 statement holds any water, either.  They seemed genuinely happy to
 provide the stone for analysis. I can't see how or why that would have
 changed in the time since then, since they had already handed over the
 stone and clearly expected ~20+ grams to go to an institution.

 5) Some people seem to not like Dr. Jenniskens.  I loaned them N#5 for
 non-destructive work and picked it up in person last Friday night.
 SETI's pretty cool, and they seem to be doing good work, most of it
 pertaining to asteroids, near-Earth/Earth-crossing bodies, Mars, and a
 variety of other things.  This kind of thing is really right up their
 alley.

 6) Michael Mulgrew's recent comment makes no sense to me.  Every
 meteorite must be studied to some extent prior to publication, or it
 could not be published.  Some meteorites require O-isotope analyses,
 some require trapped gas analyses, and others require only a few
 mineralogical data points and a petrographic description.  Where to
 draw that line can be somewhat arbitrary, but one must be careful.
 There was some confusion a few years ago because O-isotope data was
 not obtained on a new NWA acapulcoite, and it was classified as an
 winonaite.  Later pairings were worked on more thoroughly.  Novato is
 a little different because we all know it's an L6, but still.  The
 write

Re: [meteorite-list] [met-list] Fwd: sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

Hello Bob, All,
Metal protrusions like that are common on cleaned irons.  They are
usually slivers of fresh metal formerly surrounded by oxide that are
exposed via cleaning.

Since we have no evidence that Baygorria is or ever was actually
distinct from Campo del Cielo, I wouldn't be so bold as to say that
the original mass was a distinct meteorite.  It might have been, but
you assert it as though it's fact.  I would disagree without
additional evidence.

I agree.  Self-pairing when there's any question of the material being
different is a no-no.

Regards,
Jason

On Fri, Mar 8, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Robert Verish bolidecha...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Except that I can't remember if we identified the protrusion.

 Long ago I remember someone suggesting that it might be a mineral inclusion 
 that is differentially resistant to weathering, like silicates, or carbides, 
 like the cohenite in this image:
 http://www.mindat.org/photo-8081.html

 But then the ID of the iron meteorite, itself, was brought into question.
 In recap, here is what we know:
 Baygorria and Uruaçu are actual iron meteorites that are
 compositionally similar to Campo del Cielo, but are not at all similar 
 structurally.
 Uruaçu is a schreibersite-cohenite-rich IAB that is older than Campo.
 Uruaçu was found in Brazil; is unrelated to Baygorria (Uruguay) or Campo.

 Baygorria was found as a single mass (80 kg) that was cut into slices and the 
 largest remaining mass (40kg) was donated to a university. Individual 
 meteorites sold as 'Baygorria' are nothing more than Campo del Cielo from 
 Argentina.
 These bogus whole irons need to be relabeled as Campo del Cielo.
 Even 'Baygorria' slices are suspect Campo unless it can be proven that 
 provenance originated from the university or from Mr. J. Escomel, Roque Gra 
 Seras 914, Montevideo 11300, Uruguay.
 Anything less would be considered self-pairing which we now know is a 
 slippery-slope.

 Just my way of throwing dirt on the grave of the dead horse.
 Bob V.


 --- On Fri, 3/8/13, Art Jones art.jo...@iscs.com wrote:

 From: Art Jones art.jo...@iscs.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd:  sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
 To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com, Meteorite-list 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, altm...@meteorite-martin.de 
 altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 Date: Friday, March 8, 2013, 1:34 PM
 Guys,

 I think the horse is way past dead on this one, let's end
 the thread.

 Thanks, Art


 ++
   - Original Message -
   From: Randy Korotev koro...@wustl.edu
   To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
   Cc:
   Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:41 PM
   Subject: [meteorite-list]
 sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
  
   I recieved a well prepared letter
   from a fellow with a question that
   I can't begin to answer.
   Maybe someone on the list has
   seen this kind of thing before.
  
   He bought a Baygorria (Iron, IAB complex)
   from a dealer 3 years ago.
   He picked it up recently to find
   a metal protrusion sticking out
   of the thing that was sharp enough
   to prick his thumb.
   Here's a jpg of his scanned photo.
  
   http://meteorites.wustl.edu/baygorria.jpg
  
   What's happened here?
  
   Randy Korotev
   St. Louis
  
  
 __

 __

 Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
__

Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list

[meteorite-list] Fwd: sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

 all seems alright.

 And the comfort thing for us is,
 we don't have to decide that, but we can leave it to that organization, to
 decide.
 So that none of has to be tempted to suppose personal motivations in that
 question.

 That's why I asked you, whether you'd like to ask IMCA together with me
 about that case.

 But so far, I got no o.k. neither a no from you :-(

 Best,
 Martin






 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jason
 Utas
 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2013 02:08
 An: Martin Altmann; Meteorite-list
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Martin, All,

 Personal jibes aside...

 Certainly -- I'll let others decide if this is enough information, and
 they're more than welcome to buy a sample to have it tested.  I have no
 doubt that everything I'm offering is authentic, but everything I offer is
 of course backed by a full money-back guarantee.  One that I will actually
 honor.

 I find it perhaps most amusing that you're not even saying that the samples
 I'm offering aren't paired with NWA 7034 or NWA 2975.  If you are well
 familiarized with meteorites, I'm certain that you can tell that they're
 paired as well, from the photos alone.

 An analysis wouldn't tell you as much, nor would it prove the authenticity
 of most of the fragments that I am offering.  Only a visual examination
 would do as much, unless you advocated polishing a side of each specimen and
 analyzing each one individually -- but such a burden of proof has *never*
 before been asked of any meteorite dealer.

 NWA 7034 and pairings are not just a breccia, as you describe them.
 The general texture of the breccia, as I have said before, is unlike any
 other meteorite or rock that I have ever seen in a geology or petrology
 class here at Berkeley.  The angular, yet very fine-grained nature of the
 breccia is reminiscent of a few lunar meteorites that I have seen, but is
 generally much more homogeneous and contains much more shock-darkened
 fine-gained matrix.

 In short, I'm not really sure what you're getting at.  You don't seem to be
 questioning the authenticity of the material Im offering.  In fact, all you
 seem to be saying is that I should donate 20% so that I will analytically
 prove that one of fragments I purchased is indeed paired with NWA 7034 (or
 NWA 2975) -- despite the fact that this would say nothing about the
 authenticity of the other fragments (something I've mentioned several times,
 but that you have ignored repeatedly).

 You don't even address the issue of Tissint or other NWAs that apparently do
 not require laboratory testing in order to deem meteorites paired.  For
 some reason, you're singling me out for these two meteorites.

 I'd like to hear about why that is.  After all, have you noticed the
 self-paired NWA 2995 on ebay, currently offered by a European dealer (or
 at least there as of a week or so ago)?  It looks authentic to me (and is
 relatively cheap, to boot) so I have no problem with it.

 I think that's where we differ in opinion.  Ultimately, I value authenticity
 highly and trust my judgement, which has been confirmed by analytical work
 on numerous occasions.  So, it's good enough for me.

 And it beats blindly selling 15 or so fragments of something as real
 just because one specimen has been analyzed.  Though I expect data on the
 7034 pairing soon enough (another fact you continue to ignore), so I really
 don't get what your point is.  It doesn't take 20% of a meteorite to confirm
 a pairing, and the 2975 I'm offering was confirmed to be the same age and to
 share the same exposure history via argon dating.  Per your analogy, they're
 a Porsche as much as any other Porsche is.  Same stuff.

 Getting tired of saying the same things again and again.

 Jason






 On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 wrote:
 Hi Jason,

 you're often too hasty (and somewhat egocentric) to discuss a simple
 argumentation soberly.

 I say nothing else than
 that the advertisings of your material, in particular of your
 unclassified alleged NWA 7034-pairing and the unclassified supposed
 NWA 2975 pairings, are misleading or at least apt to lead to
 misunderstandings for the collectors.

 In that sense, that they raise the impression, that your material was
 decided by a professional meteorite scientist (in the meaning of the
 CoE) to be officially paired to the numbers/meteorites NWA 2975 and
 NWA 7034 and not only grouped to them by your personal inspection/opinion.
 Hence a case of the so-called self-pairing.

 All I suggested to you, was to give the collectors/buyers clear and
 sufficient information, that they can make their decisions, whether
 they like to buy or not.
 Hence to make it clear, that based on your own and personal
 observations, those samples you are offering shall be paired to the
 numbers you refer

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

 meteorites I may have found (or any questionable meteoritic material) unless
 I first obtain verification from a meteorite expert.

 And especially:

  Verified but unclassified material should be specified as such.
 Meteoritical Society guidelines will prevail in the circumstance of
 meteorite naming and pairing

 (- mean point, therefore the brackets, would be, to remind you, that for you
 the way that Mr. Jorge authenticated his pseudo-Chelyabinsk wasn't
 sufficient - but nothing else did you with your Martians, i.e. to trust your
 source and to inspect them personally. There is the danger for you, to loose
 credibility in attacking others..)


 And see,
 Especially the last point regarding the Code of Ethics of IMCA makes it so
 comfort for both of us,
 cause we don't have to discuss, whether those procedures are necessary or
 meaningful or which properties of your material made you think to be able to
 verify it or whether evil Martin doesn't like your nose or whether your
 material is authentic ect.pp.
 that's all not of interest,

 of interest is, if you fulfill the formalities the IMCA set for you (and the
 standard of the MetSoc and the standard among collectors, dealers, hunters,
 researchers) in appraising your material.

 To me it seems not so.
 To you all seems alright.

 And the comfort thing for us is,
 we don't have to decide that, but we can leave it to that organization, to
 decide.
 So that none of has to be tempted to suppose personal motivations in that
 question.

 That's why I asked you, whether you'd like to ask IMCA together with me
 about that case.

 But so far, I got no o.k. neither a no from you :-(

 Best,
 Martin






 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jason
 Utas
 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2013 02:08
 An: Martin Altmann; Meteorite-list
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Martin, All,

 Personal jibes aside...

 Certainly -- I'll let others decide if this is enough information, and
 they're more than welcome to buy a sample to have it tested.  I have no
 doubt that everything I'm offering is authentic, but everything I offer is
 of course backed by a full money-back guarantee.  One that I will actually
 honor.

 I find it perhaps most amusing that you're not even saying that the samples
 I'm offering aren't paired with NWA 7034 or NWA 2975.  If you are well
 familiarized with meteorites, I'm certain that you can tell that they're
 paired as well, from the photos alone.

 An analysis wouldn't tell you as much, nor would it prove the authenticity
 of most of the fragments that I am offering.  Only a visual examination
 would do as much, unless you advocated polishing a side of each specimen and
 analyzing each one individually -- but such a burden of proof has *never*
 before been asked of any meteorite dealer.

 NWA 7034 and pairings are not just a breccia, as you describe them.
 The general texture of the breccia, as I have said before, is unlike any
 other meteorite or rock that I have ever seen in a geology or petrology
 class here at Berkeley.  The angular, yet very fine-grained nature of the
 breccia is reminiscent of a few lunar meteorites that I have seen, but is
 generally much more homogeneous and contains much more shock-darkened
 fine-gained matrix.

 In short, I'm not really sure what you're getting at.  You don't seem to be
 questioning the authenticity of the material Im offering.  In fact, all you
 seem to be saying is that I should donate 20% so that I will analytically
 prove that one of fragments I purchased is indeed paired with NWA 7034 (or
 NWA 2975) -- despite the fact that this would say nothing about the
 authenticity of the other fragments (something I've mentioned several times,
 but that you have ignored repeatedly).

 You don't even address the issue of Tissint or other NWAs that apparently do
 not require laboratory testing in order to deem meteorites paired.  For
 some reason, you're singling me out for these two meteorites.

 I'd like to hear about why that is.  After all, have you noticed the
 self-paired NWA 2995 on ebay, currently offered by a European dealer (or
 at least there as of a week or so ago)?  It looks authentic to me (and is
 relatively cheap, to boot) so I have no problem with it.

 I think that's where we differ in opinion.  Ultimately, I value authenticity
 highly and trust my judgement, which has been confirmed by analytical work
 on numerous occasions.  So, it's good enough for me.

 And it beats blindly selling 15 or so fragments of something as real
 just because one specimen has been analyzed.  Though I expect data on the
 7034 pairing soon enough (another fact you continue to ignore), so I really
 don't get what your point is.  It doesn't take 20% of a meteorite to confirm
 a pairing, and the 2975 I'm offering was confirmed to be the same age and to
 share the same

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jason
 Utas
 Gesendet: Montag, 4. März 2013 16:42
 An: Meteorite-list
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Ahhh, now I get it.  Before I could have seen it as simple concern.
 Now I'm guessing you purchased some more material paired with NWA 7034,
 hope
 to sell it in the future, and are attacking my material accordingly.

 So now I'm not allowed to have my own opinion?  Wow, Martin.  I heard from
 some others (including a well-regarded scientist) that my last email
 raised
 some good points.  You've got something else coming if you think I'm going
 to start taking your word as gospel, especially given your history.

 So you're the fellow who cost me a buyer by telling him that he should pay
 three times more for a chip from an analyzed rock.  Well, shoot.
 Thanks for letting me know. I'll be sure to have your back next time.

 Re: everything else/the IMCA:

 Authenticity is something I take very seriously, and not just with other
 peoples' rocks.  I'm as critical of my samples as I can be, and donating a
 ~2 gram fragment from my lot of NWA 7034-paired material would not
 guarantee
 the authenticity of the smaller fragments.  Only close scrutiny -- or
 probing each one individually would do that, and that sort of analytical
 requirement has never been in place for the IMCA or elsewhere.

 I've already pointed out that I skirt directly referring to the stones as
 NWA 7034 on the website, so your rehashing the you're using someone
 else's
 number is getting old.  I do say these fragments are paired.  They are.
 You also disregard the fact that pieces are being worked on and that, even
 if I had 20% of my lot of fragments analyzed, per convention, most of the
 fragments wouldn't be directly tested.
 You wouldn't be attacking my credibility, and I could sell as many
 similar-looking terrestrial rocks as I wanted -- in peace.

 So your rules don't ensure authenticity in this case.  What does ensure
 authenticity is the fact that I looked at each fragment with a microscope,
 searching for those small, angular white clasts unique to this meteorite.
 It's very distinctive: I've taken mineralogy and petrology and never seen
 a
 terrestrial rock like it.  It does resemble a few lunar meteorites grossly
 but is generally much more fine-grained.

 Just as the IMCA doesn't require each dealer to analyze NWA
 869/801/978/753/etc., a stone from this find of many should be exempt from
 individual analysis.  If you're going to go so far as to require each
 dealer
 to analyze his or her own material, I don't see why you wouldn't require
 that every chip or fragment that they buy then must be analyzed.  Never
 mind
 the fact that this lot of fragments came from the exact same source as
 some
 of the larger stones that have since been put on the market.

 It simply doesn't make sense.  But, I've already said this.  You just
 ignored it.  Same goes for most of the rest of my last email.

 I'll let you know about the results from the analysis here at school if
 you're so curious.  As I said, we already confirmed the NWA 2975
 analytically, so forgive me if I don't take the time to respond to your
 repetitive points.

 Never mind the fact that I probably shouldn't be taking advice on how to
 stay in the IMCA from someone who got himself removed as you did.

 Jason

 On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 3:22 AM, Martin Altmann
 altm...@meteorite-martin.de
 wrote:

 Yes, Yep, Yeah Jason!

 You forget always, how old I am..  A more proper answer would have been:
 Thank you for bringing it to my attention, I'll correct it.

 I remember that in my active time in the IMCA-board such cases like
 yours were the most common complaints filed against members. The
 solution isn't a big thing, usually the board commended to the
 indicted to use those simple
 terms:
 An unclassified in a prominent position and  likely and possible.

 You know, you have to give to the potential buyer the proper
 information as a base for him to make his decision.
 Your stones are unclassified according the guidelines of the
 Meteoritical Society and the Code of Ethics of the IMCA, Regarding the
 latter you have to indicate that.

 Whether a collector or buyer concedes to you sufficient experience and
 competence to identify your samples by your own correctly, you have
 simply to leave to him.

 I wouldn't have wrote that, if not already a case had happened,
 showing that your advertizing of the possible 7034 pairing can be

 misleading.

 After the fuss in media around NWA 7034 a not yet so experienced
 German collector found your offerings and was convinced to get a true
 part of the original NWA 7034 stones.

 You've to put yourself in the position of the various collectors, not
 all are content with the intrinsic properties of the material itself,
 to some it adds a lot to such a sample

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

 once a short looked at, at hand).

 And everything else, your personal views, whether it's useful to let every
 planetary get numbered and to give the required share to the
 classifiers...is simply not of interest,
 as long as you have signed the CoE of the IMCA to obey the formal
 requirements given there, to present your material for sale and trade.

 As my view could be wrong too,
 I invited you - that we write both together a formal complaint, each of us
 telling our opinion, and let just that organization independently decide,
 whether your presentation of the material fulfills the requirements of that
 organization or not.
 For me it's necessary that we do that together, cause if I would ask at IMCA
 alone, others could misunderstand that as a hostile act from me towards you.
 And I think, that's an idea, which meets also your sportsmanship.

 Again,
 in my opinion and as it happened also in reality with the case of the
 interested collector asking in the German forum,
 your description and the use of the numbers can be misleading.

 Little example,
 Here on the list you advertized your material like this:

 Title, I quote completely:   AD - Black Beauty
 http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com/2013/feb/0164.html

 Black Beauty is the name attributed and used before for NWA 7034.

 And the text of the ad reads as follows:

 Hello All,
 I just finished the page for some fragments of the unique water and
 soil-bearing Martian regolith breccia paired with NWA 7034 and a few
 other stones.
 Please see our website for available specimens.

 http://www.fallsandfinds.com/page88.php

 Thanks!
 Jason

 There is standing definitely paired with no other constraints,
 so that the reader concludes, it has to be a pairing officially ascertained
 by a meteorite scientist.
 Furthermore, the detailed disclosure of the nature of the material, (the
 unique water and soilbreccia), so much grammar I still know, relates to
 the some fragments but not to NWA 7034,
 so that the reader must have the impression, those fragments you offer were
 properly analyzed by a scientist, who found out, that they are just such a
 regolith breccia like NWA 7034.

 Or to say it more simple:  After I read your explanations of the recent
 posts, I have to say, when this AD was no self-pairing, then I really
 don't know, what the term self-pairing is about.

 Let's go on.
 When I go on your sales page,
 http://www.fallsandfinds.com/sales.php

 I read in your inventory:

 ' The Black Beauty Unique Martian Meteorite  '

 Hence again the name used for NWA 7034.

 And I read:

 'NWA 2975, Martian'

 (the same I read in the menu side bar, when I switch to the other pages).

 Well... do I go on the 2975-page,
 I get the bold title:  NWA 2975, Shergottite (Mars)

 And the first sentence:
 These small, complete martian stones are paired with NWA 2975 as well as
 its several pairings.

 Can't help, if I read Porsche I wouldn't expect to find a Volkswagen
 Beetle - although I know, that both are cars.

 You know, Jason, most sellers of such unclassified stuff would use
 expressions similar like:  NWA  likely paired to...  or possible
 Martian...  ect.

 Hopefully now you understood, what my concern is.


 and think this is BS because you're attacking me for things I've said to
 you in the past.
 That sentence I forgive you, due to your youth.
 Don't be silly, I see no reason for attacking you personally, because we
 have different opinions, to which extent the terrestrial history and
 acquired secondary properties justify, that the find rates drop, cause the
 private sector shall be excluded from hunting, trading and collecting.

 I know for a fact that
 Probably the same way like you knew it for a fact, that all NWA 7034 but
 yours was cut with lubrifiants, even in the research labs or that I would
 have been removed from IMCA...

 Jason, meteorite collecting is an affair, which requires a certain degree of
 accuracy.
 There it is often not the best way, to transport hear-say as own factual
 knowledge.

 Cheers!
 Martin




 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: Jason Utas [mailto:meteorite...@gmail.com]
 Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. März 2013 09:29
 An: Michael Bross
 Cc: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Hello Michael, Martin, Adam,
 On the contrary, in this case, scores of stones have been recovered of each
 meteorite, and it is no longer reasonable to donate samples of each.

 I know for a fact that the both of you (Martin, Adam) haven't analyzed each
 and every stone that you've bought that was paired to NWA 2975, so where is
 the line drawn?  If you haven't analyzed every piece, I'm assuming that you
 have some way of analytically confirming the authenticity of every fragment
 you've offered, given your statements.

 Should I give a lab a single fragment to analyze, and assume the rest are
 real because the lab has confirmed it?  If that's the case, I

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

, of a likely
 pairing of NWA 2975 at 500$/g or that one from a grouplet officially
 classified and with an own number designed at 500$/g,
 you'll commend him the latter, as you know the techniques and the customs of
 meteorite collecting.

 So that collector asked in a forum, what the members would think about your
 offer.
 (I wished, that someone else than me would have given an answer to him, (but
 the others were inert.) cause now I gave the opportunity to a member there
 to continue to knit his favourite legend, that the incarnate evil strikes
 again to annihilate the world's dealership)

 Well and I answered him, that he should ask you again, whether your share
 will be officially classified or not.
 And told him, that if for him more the material itself is important, he can
 buy it, as I rely in your abilities to recognize it, though if he cares for
 later swaps, sales ect. that, what I had written in the last posting.
 And that's up to him, to decide.
 (Another member added an understandable opinion, that if a meteorite costs
 10k$ a gram, the collector could expect, that it had been properly
 classified).

 Btw. meteorites do not travel only in space, but from collection to
 collection.
 How easily that NWA-numbers you use in your description can later slip on
 the label, mislabeling the specimen.

 Anyway,
 if a classification would make your material more expensive, is not of
 interest for a collector
 neither whether a material is too common and recognizable for you personally
 (an argument which that Jorge could have used too)
 He needs only the proper information about the status of the material to be
 able to make his decisions.

 And anyway,
 Whether meaningful or not, these are the rules, which you signed to obey,
 when you joined that club of IMCA.

 Well in that sense, I think, that club would certainly advise you to change
 your advertizing in the manner I explained to you.

 Best!
 Martin



 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Jason
 Utas
 Gesendet: Samstag, 2. März 2013 21:21
 An: Meteorite-list
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Hello Martin, All,

 No, no, no, and no.

 I do not directly refer to the NWA 7034-paired material on my website as NWA
 7034.  I merely state that it is paired material.  In the case of 7034, I
 scrutinized even the smallest fragments and volunteered a fragment for
 destructive analysis here at school.  One of the fragments I received was
 not the same material as NWA 7034, and it is set aside.  Admittedly, the
 sample for work is not 20% of the weight of the lot of fragments.  But ,
 since I'm not self-assigning an NWA number, the rules have been followed.

 Standard practice would dictate that I donate 20% of the lot of fragments
 to science, which would not necessitate cut samples from every fragment I
 have.  If I didn't know what I were doing, and donated a ~2 gram fragment
 from the ~10 gram lot, most of the smaller pieces *could* be terrestrial
 crap, but the meteorite would be analyzed, approved, and you would (I
 assume) not be questioning it.

 While you may not examine prices carefully, a few weeks ago, the standard
 price for NWA 7034 was $20,000-30,000 per gram for pieces less than a half
 gram or so.  Only pieces in the gram+ range were as little as $10,000 per
 gram.

 I started my pricing at $10,000 per gram and went down to $5,000 per gram
 for larger pieces.  My prices were a fraction of the advertised price for
 these stones, and unless other dealers have dropped their prices by ~50% or
 more, my prices are still lower.

 So, yes, my specimens are priced at a fraction of what other specimens are
 (or were) priced at.  I haven't looked around in the past week or so, but I
 assume that's still true.  Since I paid just over five times as much per
 gram for this material as I have for any other meteorite from NWA, I think
 that's fair.

 Why donating 20 grams or 20% of the material would enable me to raise prices
 by 50% to 300% is beyond my comprehension, though.

 I donated a fragment of the NWA 2975 lot to destructive research at UC
 Berkeley; it was mechanically destroyed, and the maskelynite crystals were
 removed for several Ar dating runs (which did agree with the conclusions
 reached by other dating methods for NWA 2975).

 Of course, since those stones could also have come from different locations,
 in theory, I would need to cut or break each one to confirm it, right?  Even
 the ones that weigh 0.1-0.2 grams.

 By and large, I try to be reasonable with such things.  Where do you draw
 the line between a large find like Taza or NWA 869 and something like NWA
 2975?  NWA 801?  Each of these meteorites are now examples of large finds
 with hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals on the market.  As such, I
 thought NWA 2975 would be a fine name to use.
 Everyone knows it, the stones

Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[Jason Utas]

 the time and costs to get their share of that meteorite properly
 classified and numbered.

 I think, it would be more respectable and fair towards the collectors and
 laypeople (and to your seller colleagues), if you would make more
 unmistakably clear, that those stones are possibly paired to the numbers you
 give there,
 based on your personal opinion as a non-scientist
 and perhaps to adjust the prices. (for the rookies, unclassified
 self-guesses have always to be cheaper than official numbers from the
 Bulletin, because, se above, they do have a lower value in the usances of
 the meteorite scene and because they have lower costs for the seller, cause
 for a classification you have to supply the institute with a share of 20% or
 20grams of the meteorite for free and sometimes you have to pay a part of
 the classification costs too).

 And last but not least, that would give more weight to your words, when you
 doubt the reliability of other sellers in public.
 (Take for instance the case now, where it seems for you not enough
 authentication,
 when the seller of the probable pseudo-Chelyabinsk told, that his source
 assured, that they are authentic. - with the 2975 and 7034 you did just the
 same, didn't you?).

 As told, no offence intended,
 only a suggestion for an improvement.

 (Remark to Uruacu vs. Campo. Uruacu has also much more troilite blobs than
 Campo).

 Best!
 Martin




 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von jason
 utas
 Gesendet: Freitag, 1. März 2013 05:32
 An: Meteorite-list
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 Hello Adam, All,

 Actually, Uruacu does appear to be distinct from Campo del Cielo.
 Uruacu appears to be a much older meteorite that has weathered in different
 conditions, and many individuals show cohenite when cut -- a mineral I have
 never seen in Campo del Cielo.  Generally speaking, Campos run the full
 range from freshly-fusion crusted to rusty lumps, and everything in-between.
 But, Campo fell within the past ~5,000 years, so we're talking about rapid
 weathering in a wet environment (also why it's a ruster).  Uruacu fell in a
 drier area, and most individuals exhibit a much more uniform covering of
 shale that does not readily flake off due to rusting.  They seem to have
 fallen much longer ago, and are generally more weathered due to the fact
 that they've been around for longer.  Uruacu generally resists rusting
 better.

 It would be like comparing Sikhote Alin to Henbury.  No Henburies I know of
 rust, but, by and large, they're not as fresh as most Sikhotes.  But some
 Sikhotes appear to have fallen into swampy areas and look pretty bad -- and
 rust.  It's hard to mix the two up.

 The trouble is that I've also seen Campos sold as Uruacu, which complicates
 things.  Uruacu is a very old fall.  Even some reputable dealers have been
 selling specimens of new Campo (crust,
 regmaglypts) as Uruacu.  Very different.  I assume this is due to dishonest
 suppliers.

 There's a stunning, fairly large Uruacu for sale at the moment.  Not mine,
 but I wonder if this will bring it out of the woodwork.

 Regards,
 Jason

  From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
  Date: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
  To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 
 
 
  Isn't Baygorria another meteorite with a fake provenance?  Basically a
  cleaned up Campo with a delaminated section protruding after a
  not-so-careful makeover.  I would just tell him to seek first aid so
  he doesn't catch the dreaded Lawrencite disease.
 
  Adam
 
 
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Randy Korotev koro...@wustl.edu
  To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
  Cc:
  Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:41 PM
  Subject: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
 
  I recieved a well prepared letter from a fellow with a question that I
  can't begin to answer.  Maybe someone on the list has seen this kind
  of thing before.
 
  He bought a Baygorria (Iron, IAB complex) from a dealer 3 years ago.
  He picked it up recently to find a metal protrusion sticking out of
  the thing that was sharp enough to prick his thumb.
 
  Here's a jpg of his scanned photo.
 
  http://meteorites.wustl.edu/baygorria.jpg
 
  What's happened here?
 
  Randy Korotev
  St. Louis
 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Oriented Meteorites?

[jason utas]

Hello Brandon, All,
Oriented typically means that it is evident that a stone attained
stable flight for at least the later portion of a given meteorite's
ablative time spent falling to Earth.

However, this sort of thing can be somewhat subjective, and it is a
greyscale ranging from not at all oriented to very much so.

Not so much [shield-shaped, minor froth on trailing face]:

http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Katol/complete/72.678/DSCN2719.jpeg
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Katol/complete/72.678/DSCN2717.jpeg
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Katol/complete/72.678/DSCN2714.jpeg

Very much so:

http://www.fallsandfinds.com/page9.php

Generally, if a meteorite's crust shows flow-lines, I'll call it
flight-marked.  If it has a shape that denotes stable aerodynamic
flight, then it's at least somewhat oriented.

But many sellers don't seem to be able to tell the difference between
oriented meteorites and:

1) Broken stones, especially if sand-blasted.  If you take a round,
fusion-crusted stone and break it in half, you get a heat-shield
shape.  But not an oriented stone.  Especially common with NWA's.
Corner chips off of larger stones often exhibit convex surface of
crust and concave broken faces.

2) Fusion crusted stones that show no sign of orientation, but are
shaped kind of like a heat-shield.  Similar to above, but atmospheric
break.  The broken face fuses over, and an oriented shape results.
But, no flow lines or evidence of lipping or thicker crust on trailing
face of stone.

3) Stones that show vague traces of orientation, if any.  Sometimes, a
dealer calls a meteorite oriented and...I just don't get it.

Not much else to say...it really is a greyscale, and, while I wouldn't
call orientation subjective, someone else might deem flow-lines
enough evidence to call something oriented, regardless of shape.

Regards,
Jason


 From: Brandon D. b1dunov...@aol.com
 Date: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:04 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Oriented Meteorites?
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Hello Everyone,

 I have a question I'm sure can be answered here to my satisfaction.

 What defines an Oriented meteorite? I've noticed a trend starting where
 people have begun calling any meteorite with a rounded edge oriented or
 slightly oriented.

 What truly defines an oriented meteorite? I have dozens of shields with
 radial flowlines and bullet shaped stones and irons, so I see orientation,
 but what's the true criteria?

 Thank you ahead for any replies.

 Best,
 Brandon D.
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Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[jason utas]

Hello Mike, All,
Good catch.  Uruacu's something else, while Baygorria is Campo, along
with Las Palmas and a few other newbies supposedly from...other
places.
Gotta love globalization...
Jason

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 10:05 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote:
 Uruacu could hardly be more different than Campo. Jason, are you confusing 
 Baygorria with Uruacu? I saw Adam mention Baygorria (which is a total scam to 
 claim campo under another name).
 Uruacu from Brazil is an extremely stable iron. It is old, but amazingly when 
 cut is perfect and so have yet to see a piece that rusts on a cut surface.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Feb 28, 2013, at 11:31 PM, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello Adam, All,

 Actually, Uruacu does appear to be distinct from Campo del Cielo.
 Uruacu appears to be a much older meteorite that has weathered in
 different conditions, and many individuals show cohenite when cut -- a
 mineral I have never seen in Campo del Cielo.  Generally speaking,
 Campos run the full range from freshly-fusion crusted to rusty lumps,
 and everything in-between.  But, Campo fell within the past ~5,000
 years, so we're talking about rapid weathering in a wet environment
 (also why it's a ruster).  Uruacu fell in a drier area, and most
 individuals exhibit a much more uniform covering of shale that does
 not readily flake off due to rusting.  They seem to have fallen much
 longer ago, and are generally more weathered due to the fact that
 they've been around for longer.  Uruacu generally resists rusting
 better.

 It would be like comparing Sikhote Alin to Henbury.  No Henburies I
 know of rust, but, by and large, they're not as fresh as most
 Sikhotes.  But some Sikhotes appear to have fallen into swampy areas
 and look pretty bad -- and rust.  It's hard to mix the two up.

 The trouble is that I've also seen Campos sold as Uruacu, which
 complicates things.  Uruacu is a very old fall.  Even some reputable
 dealers have been selling specimens of new Campo (crust,
 regmaglypts) as Uruacu.  Very different.  I assume this is due to
 dishonest suppliers.

 There's a stunning, fairly large Uruacu for sale at the moment.  Not
 mine, but I wonder if this will bring it out of the woodwork.

 Regards,
 Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com



 Isn't Baygorria another meteorite with a fake provenance?  Basically a
 cleaned up Campo with a delaminated section protruding after a
 not-so-careful makeover.  I would just tell him to seek first aid so he
 doesn't catch the dreaded Lawrencite disease.

 Adam




 - Original Message -
 From: Randy Korotev koro...@wustl.edu
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:41 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 I recieved a well prepared letter from a fellow with a question that I can't
 begin to answer.  Maybe someone on the list has seen this kind of thing
 before.

 He bought a Baygorria (Iron, IAB complex) from a dealer 3 years ago. He
 picked it up recently to find a metal protrusion sticking out of the thing
 that was sharp enough to prick his thumb.

 Here's a jpg of his scanned photo.

 http://meteorites.wustl.edu/baygorria.jpg

 What's happened here?

 Randy Korotev
 St. Louis

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Re: [meteorite-list] A reply note for JASON concerning my Chelyabinsk Meteorites for sale on EBAY

[jason utas]

Jorge,

1) I am not selling any material from this fall, nor do I plan to.

2) So much of the material you're selling in your ebay account is so
painfully misrepresented that I fear no threat from you.  You're
either woefully ignorant, or a cheat.  Either way, you have no grounds
to be threatening anyone who points this out.

Written proof is worth as much as the person who's writing it, which
means nothing in your case.

You sell common NWA's as meteorites from Oman, Burkina Faso, and the
Atacama, have already sold a piece of an H-chondrite as Chelyabinsk
material:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-RUSSIA-2013-Meteor-Event-1-20gr-Very-Rare-Meteorite-Specimen-/321079087502?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item4ac1ce118e

To say nothing of the mislabeled Canyon Diablo, Sikhote Alin, and
several smaller specimens of rare falls that you've listed in recent
months that have consisted of caliche-encrusted fragments of NWA
meteorites.  At any given point, I'd say about a third to a half of
your non-NWA material is misrepresented (or perhaps accidentally
mislabeled, but the end result is the same).

You're trying to make money off of the people in our community by
deceiving us.  I wouldn't expect mush sympathy here.

Jason


 From: Jorge M. Gonçalves galeriaco...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:22 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] A reply note for JASON concerning my Chelyabinsk
 Meteorites for sale on EBAY
 To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Subject: A reply note for JASON concerning my Chelyabinsk Meteorites
 for sale on EBAY

 As far as I'm concerned and for your information I'm the only one
 showing  written proof from the Russian seller with my meteorites
 being sold on Ebay, as far as I know all the other Chelyabinsk Russian
 Meteorite pieces for sale on Ebay don't come with any written proof
 showing any or similar authenticity.

 Just because I don't actively participate on this list does not mean
 I'm not attentive to all the messages and content being sent forth
 from all its registered members.


 Sincerely yours,

 Jorge
 GALERIACORES METEORITE COLLECTION
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Re: [meteorite-list] JASON, be carefull what you say about my meteorites on the Meteorite List, I am warning you...

[jason utas]

Jorge,
The small fragment you've already sold and the 19g stone you currently
have for sale are both H-chondrites.
Chelyabinsk is an LL5.
I would suggest refunding the buyer of the 1.20 gram fragment you've
already sold and pulling the 19 gram stone.
Maybe I'll try writing some Russian labels for my Bassikounou's and
listing them for $20+/g.  They'll have labels, right?  That means they
must be authentic.
Jason


 From: Jorge M. Gonçalves galeriaco...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:51 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] JASON, be carefull what you say about my
 meteorites on the Meteorite List, I am warning you...
 To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Jason, I was asked by the owner of the METEORITE LIST not to write any
 offensive language or insult any one publicly on this list but
 apparently you don't respect that policy.

 All I said is that my Russian meteorite specimens on Ebay come with a
 card of authenticity from the Russian seller. Before you start
 accusing me of anything please ask someone to interpret the card for
 you. The name of the seller and his respective residence is on that
 card  and to me that is all the written proof I need.

 Jorge



 2013/2/28 jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com

 Jorge,
 1) I am not selling any material from this fall, nor do I plan to.
 2) So much of the material you're selling in your ebay account is so
 painfully misrepresented that I fear no threat from you.  You're
 either woefully ignorant, or a cheat.  Either way, you have no grounds
 to be threatening anyone who points this out.
 Written proof is worth as much as the person who's writing it, which
 apparently means nothing in your case.
 Jason

 On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 6:18 AM, Jorge M. Gonçalves
 galeriaco...@gmail.com wrote:
  You've got some nerve to come on the Meteorite List and start exalting
  your
  specimens from Russia and condemning my own. Pardon my language
  expression,
  but who the fuck do you think you are???  As far as I'm concerned I'm
  the
  only one showing  written proof from the seller, as far as I know all
  the
  other pieces don't come with any written proof showing any authenticity.
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Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

[jason utas]

Hello Adam, All,

Actually, Uruacu does appear to be distinct from Campo del Cielo.
Uruacu appears to be a much older meteorite that has weathered in
different conditions, and many individuals show cohenite when cut -- a
mineral I have never seen in Campo del Cielo.  Generally speaking,
Campos run the full range from freshly-fusion crusted to rusty lumps,
and everything in-between.  But, Campo fell within the past ~5,000
years, so we're talking about rapid weathering in a wet environment
(also why it's a ruster).  Uruacu fell in a drier area, and most
individuals exhibit a much more uniform covering of shale that does
not readily flake off due to rusting.  They seem to have fallen much
longer ago, and are generally more weathered due to the fact that
they've been around for longer.  Uruacu generally resists rusting
better.

It would be like comparing Sikhote Alin to Henbury.  No Henburies I
know of rust, but, by and large, they're not as fresh as most
Sikhotes.  But some Sikhotes appear to have fallen into swampy areas
and look pretty bad -- and rust.  It's hard to mix the two up.

The trouble is that I've also seen Campos sold as Uruacu, which
complicates things.  Uruacu is a very old fall.  Even some reputable
dealers have been selling specimens of new Campo (crust,
regmaglypts) as Uruacu.  Very different.  I assume this is due to
dishonest suppliers.

There's a stunning, fairly large Uruacu for sale at the moment.  Not
mine, but I wonder if this will bring it out of the woodwork.

Regards,
Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com



 Isn't Baygorria another meteorite with a fake provenance?  Basically a
 cleaned up Campo with a delaminated section protruding after a
 not-so-careful makeover.  I would just tell him to seek first aid so he
 doesn't catch the dreaded Lawrencite disease.

 Adam




 - Original Message -
 From: Randy Korotev koro...@wustl.edu
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:41 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] sharp protrusion from an iron meteorite

 I recieved a well prepared letter from a fellow with a question that I can't
 begin to answer.  Maybe someone on the list has seen this kind of thing
 before.

 He bought a Baygorria (Iron, IAB complex) from a dealer 3 years ago. He
 picked it up recently to find a metal protrusion sticking out of the thing
 that was sharp enough to prick his thumb.

 Here's a jpg of his scanned photo.

 http://meteorites.wustl.edu/baygorria.jpg

 What's happened here?

 Randy Korotev
 St. Louis

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[meteorite-list] Chelyabinsk on Ebay

[jason utas]

Hello All,
These auctions' photos show freshly fallen ordinary chondrites.  All look good:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/.a./m.html?item=300868095223rt=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2562

http://www.ebay.com/sch/ablipih/m.html?item=121072639061pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c307ddc55rt=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2562

http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?item=160979414962pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0_sacat=0_from=R40hash=item257b1eefb2_ssn=malkki2006_nkw=meteorite+chelyabinsk_nkwusc=meteorite+chelybinsk_rdc=1

http://www.ebay.com/sch/gogig/m.html?item=121073304718pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c3088048ert=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2562

http://www.ebay.com/sch/alexanches/m.html?item=251236221505pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3a7ed88241rt=nc_trksid=p2047675.l2562

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-Russia-meteorite-fragments-/221194267252?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item338034aa74



BUT, BE CAREFUL!



Bassikounou or Chergach:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-RUSSIA-2013-Meteor-Event-19-00gr-Very-Rare-Meteorite-Specimen-/321081034359?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item4ac1ebc677

[Generally, I'd stay way from all of this seller's auctions.  Much
misrepresented material, nothing anyone can do about it.  Their
smaller Chelyabinsk pieces look a little funky as well -- I'd assume
Bensour or similar, but do not have any proof beyond appearance.]

River rock:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/02-15-13-Russia-Chelyabinsk-meteorite-fragment-6-g-Rare-Alien-Shaped-NR-/300868377874?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item460d271d12

Road gravel (light rock with tar on exterior):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chelyabinsk-meteorite-VERY-RARE-/251232951607?pt=UK_Collectables_RocksFossils_Minerals_EHhash=item3a7ea69d37

Sketchy auction showing a few photos of stones also pictured in a news
release, with a photo of a cut...something that doesn't really look
like a meteorite in the last photo:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meteorite-from-Chelyabinsk-15-02-13-/230935960665?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item35c4db1c59

If I wanted to buy one of the first pieces of this meteorite (why/why
not?), I'd place a bid on something in the links above the 'be
careful' note.  I can't vouch for the sellers, but if you pay via
paypal, you should be fine thanks to their pretty solid buyer
protection.  That said, we may be looking at a Gao-sized event, so
~$20/g might be a bit much.  But, they're small, pristine, complete
stones from a fall, so you probably won't do too badly.

As you will.

Regards,
Jason

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Tom Randall tommy2...@hvc.rr.com wrote:


 I have bought a number of meteorites from the good folks on THIS 
 meteorite list. eBay is fine, the BUYER has to know the seller. They need to 
 do their homework or they run the risk of getting ripped off.  It's no 
 different than any other sale.

   KNOW YOUR SELLER folks, don't trust people you don't know.  ASK AROUND. Ask 
 people on this list. Ask ME. ASK!
 Point people to this meteorite list.

   If ANY of that Russian meteorite gets on the market you can bet I'll be 
 buying it from someone on THIS list. If affordable of coarse!

 Regards!

 Tom

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Re: [meteorite-list] AD - Black Beauty

[jason utas]

Hello Carl,
On the contrary, the only reason I included the statement regarding
ethylene glycol was because I was informed by a customer that at least
some of the material on the market had been cut with synthetic
lubricant.  S/he made a point of purchasing specimens that had not
been 'messed with' after making inquiries.

And, yes, that statement applies.  Perhaps not to the material from
the 320 gram stone, but the vast majority of the material I have seen
for sale has come from other sources.

I've only seen a few grams of slices from Mr. Piatek's stone, but it
does not surprise me that you would have curated it well.

Though I will say that it was a bit steep.

Regards,
Jason

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Carl Agee a...@unm.edu wrote:
 Hi Jason,

 I looked at your link. I think you need to revise it since it contains
 false information about the cutting of Black Beauty (NWA 7034) -- at
 least if you are referring to the 320 g main mass that is at the IOM?
 The cutting was done with distilled water -- NOT ethylene glycol
 (antifreeze). Also, stating in your link that our samples were messed
 with seems to be a rather unusual way to describe cutting with a fine
 diamond wire.

 If you want to know anything specific about Black Beauty, I would be
 happy to talk to you about it and how to identify it in hand sample
 and nature of the reduced carbon -- my team has been studying this
 meteorite with numerous lab techniques since August 2011.

 PS: the Science Article print version will be on newsstands Feb. 15.

 Carl Agee

 --
 Carl B. Agee
 Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
 Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
 MSC03 2050
 University of New Mexico
 Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

 Tel: (505) 750-7172
 Fax: (505) 277-3577
 Email: a...@unm.edu
 http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/

 On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 3:24 AM, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello All,
 I just finished the page for some fragments of the unique water and
 soil-bearing Martian regolith breccia paired with NWA 7034 and a few
 other stones.
 Please see our website for available specimens.

 http://www.fallsandfinds.com/page88.php

 Thanks!
 Jason

 IMCA 7630
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Re: [meteorite-list] Ka tol Main Mass

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
For a few photos:

http://www.fallsandfinds.com/page71.php

If you're curious about the classification, just find me at Tucson.
Will be in town all this weekend with slices, complete stones, etc.
Regards,
Jason

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Brandon b1dunov...@aol.com wrote:
 I do second that Mike. I am curious what the mass looks like given the only 
 real pictures are from the Indian media and GSI.

 Brandon D.

 On Jan 31, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Galactic Stone  Ironworks 
 meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote:

 Got any photos?  I'm not in the market to buy, but I'm curious what
 the big stone looks like.  :)

 Best regards,

 MikeG

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 On 1/31/13, Me Teor m3t30r1t3...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Listees

 The main mass from the Ka tol fall is available for viewing and purchase at
 the HTCC in Tucson.
 Please email me if interested.

 Thanks

 M.E

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Re: [meteorite-list] New 4.4g Cold find

[Jason Utas]

Grey interior is still looking into the (ridiculously) thick fusion
crust.  H5/6.
Regards,
J



-- Forwarded message --
From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New 4.4g Cold find
To: wahlpe...@aol.com


Abundant bumps on front are due to metal flakes  - probably H5/6 S? W1/2
Beauty, congrats.
J

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:45 AM,  wahlpe...@aol.com wrote:
 Hi All,

 I found a  4.4g oriented meteorite. It looks like a weathered OC but on a
 closer inspection the back side shows a frothy brown fusion crust with a
 dark interior.Could this be normal weathering for chondrite? I would hate to
 cut it and find out that it is only a OC and ruin the oriented meteorite. On
 a long shot maybe a Impact Melt or CC chondrite?

 Sonny


 http://www.nevadameteorites.com/nevadameteorites/New_Cold_Find.html
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Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bull Update - The NWA OC Rush Part Two, Electric Boogaloo

[jason utas]

Hello Mike, All,

With my most recent batches of submissions, I noticed that the more
interesting classifications were/are often held up due to insufficient
analytical justification (according to the folks in charge of
approving classifications).  Equilibrated OC's all went through in a
matter of days or weeks, and the more interesting stones are...still
held up.

So when a list of equilibrated OC's like that comes up with ~10
missing numbers -- and all of the stones appear to have been submitted
by the same owner at the same time via the same classifying
institution -- you can be fairly certain that there are interesting
classifications still in the works.

Regards,
Jason

 From: MikeG meteoritem...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:44 PM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Met Bull Update - The NWA OC Rush Part Two,
 Electric Boogaloo
 To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Hi Bulletin Watchers,

 18 new OC approvals, all from the NWA dense collection area.  Nothing
 too much to get excited about here, from a collector standpoint.  But,
 we have seen a definite increase in approvals in recent months (or so
 it seems), and the number of official meteorites continues to climb.
 The Saharan Gold Rush may be arguably over or well past it's peak, but
 the classification process will be sorting these out for years to
 come.

 Link - 
 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=sfor=namesants=falls=valids=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allrect=phot=snew=1pnt=Normal%20tabledr=page=0

 Best regards,

 MikeG

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Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

[jason utas]

Hello Adam, All,
You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to
fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about
it and is unconstitutional.

I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might*
logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects.  It
shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules
versus making an entirely new rule(s).  Calling it twisting is just
misleading.  I address this in my last email, which you apparently
replied to without reading.

Or saying anything, really.  The rest of what you say seems baseless
to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making
these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are.
Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution.

As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find
their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/

You're being a little too dramatic for my taste.

If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land
they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for
keeping track of *their* meteorites.  This all rings too much of the
recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land.

http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/

Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by
citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking.

You should read my last email.  It really does address the
antiquities aspect of things.

And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM
resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining
permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from
BLM land, it  means that you're making money from finding them.  Most
such things require permits.  It does seem inconvenient to me, so I
can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but
taking it this far just seemsa bit much.

I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite
hunter should care about these laws.  Apparently the limit is 10 lbs
per year, not 25.  But how much Franconia do you really want?

Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile
 Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago.
 Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard.
 Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper
 way to go about it and is unconstitutional.  The word meteorite
 couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago.  Now
 this has all changed.


 The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now
 be considered a criminal.


 Freedom isn't for free,

 Adam



 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

 Hello All,
 I'd like to point out a few things:

 As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do
 not affect me.  These new rules primarily affect the commercial
 interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on
 public land and sell their finds.   A precious few people publish any
 information on their more 'important' finds.  It often takes years for
 such information to reach the public, if it does at all.

 Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the
 past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of
 knowledge.  I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there
 are more.  They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't
 find photos online.   Not for fear of the government claiming them,
 but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in
 the field.

 Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that
 kind of information.  And now his finds are being touted as examples
 of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite
 the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of
 us Southwest hunters.  [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding
 large meteorites?  Seems unlikely, doesn't it?]  That said, such a law
 won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm
 still not seeing the point of supporting either side.

 *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance.  Seems
 like a qualitative judgement to me.

 Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites.  But, as a group, our
 primary interest isn't the advancement

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

[jason utas]

 seems baseless
 to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making
 these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are.
 Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution.

 As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find
 their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted.

 http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/

 You're being a little too dramatic for my taste.

 If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land
 they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for
 keeping track of *their* meteorites.  This all rings too much of the
 recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land.

 http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/

 Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by
 citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking.

 You should read my last email.  It really does address the
 antiquities aspect of things.

 And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM
 resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining
 permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from
 BLM land, it  means that you're making money from finding them.  Most
 such things require permits.  It does seem inconvenient to me, so I
 can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but
 taking it this far just seemsa bit much.

 I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite
 hunter should care about these laws.  Apparently the limit is 10 lbs
 per year, not 25.  But how much Franconia do you really want?

 Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile
 Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago.
 Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard.
 Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper
 way to go about it and is unconstitutional.  The word meteorite
 couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago.  Now
 this has all changed.


 The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now
 be considered a criminal.


 Freedom isn't for free,

 Adam



 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

 Hello All,
 I'd like to point out a few things:

 As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do
 not affect me.  These new rules primarily affect the commercial
 interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on
 public land and sell their finds.   A precious few people publish any
 information on their more 'important' finds.  It often takes years for
 such information to reach the public, if it does at all.

 Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the
 past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of
 knowledge.  I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there
 are more.  They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't
 find photos online.   Not for fear of the government claiming them,
 but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in
 the field.

 Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that
 kind of information.  And now his finds are being touted as examples
 of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite
 the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of
 us Southwest hunters.  [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding
 large meteorites?  Seems unlikely, doesn't it?]  That said, such a law
 won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm
 still not seeing the point of supporting either side.

 *Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance.  Seems
 like a qualitative judgement to me.

 Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites.  But, as a group, our
 primary interest isn't the advancement of science.  That much is very
 clear.  We're all interested in it to different extents, but we're not
 donating our finds to science beyond what we have to (some folks give
 a bit more, but it's almost always a fraction of a given stone).

 With regards to recovery, we do indeed accomplish more than scientists
 could on their own.  Battle Mountain is the best example of this in
 recent years: a new fall that would not have been recovered without
 amateurs.  But, with collectors and dealers finding rocks, scientists
 get a much smaller cut of the material, with the majority

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

[jason utas]

 thing but not when they are crammed
 down your throat by an uninformed bureaucrat who has not even vetted
 the real issues,

 Adam.





 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 12:38 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

 Hello Adam, All,
 You're insinuating a heck of a lot with phrases like Twisting laws to
 fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper way to go about
 it and is unconstitutional.

 I've already clearly explained why the 1906 Antiquities Act *might*
 logically be altered to accommodate for other groups of objects.  It
 shouldn't matter whether they choose to modify that set of rules
 versus making an entirely new rule(s).  Calling it twisting is just
 misleading.  I address this in my last email, which you apparently
 replied to without reading.

 Or saying anything, really.  The rest of what you say seems baseless
 to someone who knows nothing about which bureaucrat you're making
 these accusations, or what his or her apparently sinister goals are.
 Or how/why these new rules somehow disagree with the constitution.

 As for your eight year old -- even children who inadvertently find
 their parents' drugs in their coat pockets aren't prosecuted.

 http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/09/28/sacramento-man-arrested-after-6-year-old-child-brings-meth-to-school/

 You're being a little too dramatic for my taste.

 If you adhere to the notion that meteorites belong to whoever's land
 they're found on, I don't think you can really blame the BLM for
 keeping track of *their* meteorites.  This all rings too much of the
 recent occupation of some of Berkeley's agricultural land.

 http://www.dailycal.org/2012/05/13/gill-tract-occupiers-disregard-democratic-process/

 Just as technically state-owned (UC) land cannot be appropriated by
 citizens, public property is not inherently yours for the taking.

 You should read my last email.  It really does address the
 antiquities aspect of things.

 And if people are indeed making their livings by collecting BLM
 resourceswell, why not complain about hunting permits, mining
 permits, or anything else like that? If you're selling meteorites from
 BLM land, it  means that you're making money from finding them.  Most
 such things require permits.  It does seem inconvenient to me, so I
 can understand wanting to avoid having to abide by the new rules, but
 taking it this far just seemsa bit much.

 I've still yet to see a reason that I as a recreational meteorite
 hunter should care about these laws.  Apparently the limit is 10 lbs
 per year, not 25.  But how much Franconia do you really want?

 Jason

 From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Date: Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:53 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
 To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 You have heard the saying give an inch and they will take a mile
 Richard Norton tried to warn anybody who would listen a decade ago.
 Meteorites are no more antiques than the rocks in my back yard.
 Twisting laws to fit a bureaucrat's immediate needs is not the proper
 way to go about it and is unconstitutional.  The word meteorite
 couldn't even be found in a BLM officer's manual a mere year ago.  Now
 this has all changed.


 The first 8-year old kid that picks up 10.01 pound meteorite will now
 be considered a criminal.


 Freedom isn't for free,

 Adam



 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 9:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

 Hello All,
 I'd like to point out a few things:

 As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do
 not affect me.  These new rules primarily affect the commercial
 interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on
 public land and sell their finds.   A precious few people publish any
 information on their more 'important' finds.  It often takes years for
 such information to reach the public, if it does at all.

 Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the
 past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of
 knowledge.  I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there
 are more.  They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't
 find photos online.   Not for fear of the government claiming them,
 but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in
 the field.

 Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that
 kind of information.  And now his finds are being touted as examples
 of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite
 the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of
 us Southwest hunters.  [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding
 large

Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

[jason utas]

Hello All,
I'd like to point out a few things:

As an active meteorite hunter/collector, the proposed regulations do
not affect me.  These new rules primarily affect the commercial
interest in meteorite hunting -- those people who regularly hunt on
public land and sell their finds.   A precious few people publish any
information on their more 'important' finds.  It often takes years for
such information to reach the public, if it does at all.

Most of the single-specimen 25+ lb stones found on BLM land in the
past two decades have been kept secret and out of the public sphere of
knowledge.  I know of a few such stones, and have no doubt that there
are more.  They haven't been submitted for analysis, and you can't
find photos online.   Not for fear of the government claiming them,
but because the finders don't want the attention...or competition in
the field.

Sonny Clary is one of the very few people I know who publishes that
kind of information.  And now his finds are being touted as examples
of why private meteorite hunters are such a boon for science, despite
the fact that he is a very big exception when compared to the rest of
us Southwest hunters.  [Or maybe you think that no one else is finding
large meteorites?  Seems unlikely, doesn't it?]  That said, such a law
won't change this practice of keeping important* finds secret, so I'm
still not seeing the point of supporting either side.

*Perhaps large (25 lbs) isn't synonymous with importance.  Seems
like a qualitative judgement to me.

Granted, we amateur hunters find meteorites.  But, as a group, our
primary interest isn't the advancement of science.  That much is very
clear.  We're all interested in it to different extents, but we're not
donating our finds to science beyond what we have to (some folks give
a bit more, but it's almost always a fraction of a given stone).

With regards to recovery, we do indeed accomplish more than scientists
could on their own.  Battle Mountain is the best example of this in
recent years: a new fall that would not have been recovered without
amateurs.  But, with collectors and dealers finding rocks, scientists
get a much smaller cut of the material, with the majority of it going
to sale/into collections (and with no guarantee of the quality of
curatorship).

No one against the law has yet addressed this topic, which I think may
be an aspect of the problem.  And
no one is arguing that we amateurs don't provide a valuable service by
bringing new meteorites to light that would otherwise not (ever?) be
found.  Nor do the proposed regulations inhibit the right or ability
of most hunters to continue to do what they've been doing.  You guys
need to look at the regulations and what they're actually going to
change.  Permits will theoretically be required for selling meteorites
found on BLM land and uncommonly large finds that aren't usually
reported anyway are theoretically going to have to be turned in to the
government.

--

The Antiquities Act -- yes, it seems a little odd to piggy-back
meteorites on an antiquity law that was not intended to include
meteorites.  On the other hand, it's probably easier to pass
regulations on newly considered items by folding them into existing
regulatory categories.  Instead of a new BLM department for regulating
meteorites, the government officials who went after artifacts can now
address both groups of items (meteorites + artifacts).  This doesn't
seem like such an insane idea to me.  Good?  I don't know.  Since the
new regulations don't affect me, I don't particularly care.

Were these new aspects of the law intended under the original
legislation?  Nope.  But it seems that the *intent* of the people
changing the law is to restrict the private for-profit exploitation of
meteorites found on public land.  So, they are passing the laws that
they intend to pass, which aren't the laws that someone wanted back in
1906.  Of course, back in 1906, we didn't know that meteorites could
be collected on public land and sold for considerable profit, so the
fact that there wasn't a law then (and *perhaps* should be one now)
is...kind of logical.

Seems a little less crazy now, doesn't it?

All that's left to do is debate the pros and cons of these proposed
regulations.   I would go about it by comparing the regulations'
merits and drawbacks.  Making this a legal argument of but they
weren't intended to be covered by this law in 1906 seems odd to me.
With Gebel Kamil in Egypt, some academics tried to say that meteorites
fell under an antiquities law when no qualifying laws/regulations had
ever been made.   That didn't cut it for me.  This is going through
actual legislative channels.

Generally, I don't like regulation, but...
After ~10 years of free-time-hunting, the largest stone Peter and I
have ever found out here in California weighs a measly few kilos.
Maybe when I find a 200 lb iron sitting out there, I'll think
differently.  But the Smithsonian already confiscates the big
meteorites 

Re: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - 3 New African Approvals (Acfer and NWA)

[jason utas]

Hello MIke,
Perusing the data, I noticed the following phrase in the description
of the EL5: Opaque phases are mainly kamacite and troilite, almost
completely weathered to iron oxides.  --  And yet, the stone was
deemed W1?
Might someone qualified be willing to comment on this?  I'm confused.
Regards,
Jason




 From: MikeG meteoritem...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 11:17 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Met Bulletin Update - 3 New African
 Approvals (Acfer and NWA)
 To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Greetings Bulletin Watchers,

 3 new approvals - an EL5, CV3, and L5.

 Link - 
 http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=sfor=namesants=falls=valids=stype=containslrec=50map=gebrowse=country=Allsrt=namecateg=Allmblist=Allrect=phot=snew=1pnt=Normal%20tabledr=page=0

 Best regards,

 MikeG


 --
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 Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
 Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
 Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
 Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
 RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
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Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook

[jason utas]

Hola,
Everyone should have the benefit of the doubt, but I'm awaiting other
photos.  Even stones like Bouse and those Mifflins had to have a
finder.  At the moment, nothing more than suspect.  It could have
been cleaned strangely or just be a very odd Holbrook.  But...when
things stick out, it's best to be cautious.
Regards,
Jason



 From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com
 Date: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:32 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook
 To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 I guess we stand corrected...

 - Original Message -
 From: Stuart McDaniel actionshoot...@carolina.rr.com
 To: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com; meteorite-list
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 5:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook

 The guy that has it for sale just posted that he actually was the one
 to find it.




 *
 Stuart McDaniel
 Lawndale, NC
 Secr.,
 Cleve. Co. Astronomical Society

 IMCA #9052
 Sirius Meteorites

 Node35 - Sentinel All Sky

 http://spacerocks.weebly.com

 *
 -Original Message- From: Mark Bowling
 Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 8:21 PM
 To: meteorite-list
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook

 I agree with Jason, it doesn't look quite right.

 It's always hard to tell from photos, but if it looked this way in
 person, I would not have guessed Holbook.  If someone cleans/shines
 them up, it can really change the look of them.

 I've found a lot Holbrook and seen a lot taken in the field, and I
 thought I knew them well.  But I was surprised a few years ago at the
 difference, when I saw one cleaned with chapstick just hours after
 being found in front of many witnesses.  I had to adjust my thinking
 (I've always left mine as found, dirt and all, and I'm glad I have).

 But even so, that doesn't really change the thickness of the crust.
 It just looks strange - it could be a Holbrook that's been handled a
 lot, like being carried in a pocket (???).

 Unless you really trust this person, I'd stay away, but that's just me
 (the seller could be on the up and up).

 Mark

 P.S nice finds Jim!




 
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:49 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook

 Hello Jim,
 I see finely textured crust with surface rust.  Looks like a Holbrook.
 I think the lighting of the photo on facebook is throwing you off.
 It's quite different.
 Regards,
 Jason

 On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Jim Wooddell jimwoodd...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Jason!

 So what do you think about this one?

 http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa325/desertsunburn/IMG_3252.jpg
 which is a Holbrook found on the 99th Anniversary of the fall.

 Jim




 On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 12:22 PM, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello All,
 Texture's completely off.  Newly found Holbrooks can be weathered. but
 always show a discrete layer of fusion crust that has not been
 mechanically altered much since 1912.  Surface rust, yes.  Places
 where it has chipped off, yes.  Contraction cracks...usually.

 But, little abrasion -- certainly not extensive sand-blasting.

 The stone pictured has been desert-varnished to the point that it has
 remnant-crust, or a layer of thin-to-non-existent fusion crust,
 which, as Mendy notes, is similar to the weathering seen on NWA's.

 If it's a Holbrook, it's a find from a unique area where the stone has
 weathered differently from...any other Holbrook I've ever seen.

 A real one:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-11-4-gram-HOLBROOK-METEORITE-ABOUT-90-CRUSTED-/221144642054?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item337d3f7206

 Note the fine detail still present on the crust.

 And again:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-18-6-gram-HOLBROOK-METEORITE-ABOUT-50-CRUSTED-/221144641606?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item337d3f7046

 Jim Steele is also offering Buzzard Coulee, Ash Creek, Mifflin and
 Park Forest.  Anyone want to try to get some photos?  He could have
 purchased the Holbrook/other stones, so not trying to point any
 fingers here.

 Kudos to Mendy for spotting this one - completely missed it.

 Regards,
 Jason



 From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net
 Date: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 11:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook
 To: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com, Meteorite List
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 I am pretty sure Steve Shoner has found more
 Holbrook than anyone on the list...
 Stevewhaddayathink? Of is a photo insufficient
 To form an opinion?
Michael

 On 10/25/12 8:31 AM, Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com wrote:

 There is a large 53.3g Holbrook being offered for sale on Facebook that
 looks a bit weird to me.  The seller, Jim Steele, states that he found it 
 in
 1998.  I do not see

Re: [meteorite-list] 2.5 miles from first fall?

[jason utas]

Michael, All,
Peter put in several days in the area this week, and we both spent
three days to the north and south of town this past weekend with no
finds.  I'm sure the meteorites are there, but they're not laying
about thickly.  I'll let you know how this weekend goes.
Jason


 From:  rexsca...@comcast.net
 Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 10:51 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 2.5 miles from first fall?
 To: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 I agree.

 start wandering the neighbor hoods. FYI all streets are public streets.

 all parks are public parks.

 Even school after schools after 3 are open.

 tons and tons of parkign lots.

 -Rex

 any map where the 2nd one is shown? Maybe i will wander up there or
 send a bunch of the students I used to teach science to with dreams of
 finding a stone. They only live 60 minutes away.

 :)

 From: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 To: rexsca...@comcast.net
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 10:29:58 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 2.5 miles from first fall?

 Is there not one true meteorite hunter in Cali right now? Huge fall,
 hundreds of stones on the ground, endless streets and parking lots and
 field ls visible in google earth. What the hell is everyone waiting
 for?
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Oct 26, 2012, at 7:07 PM, rexsca...@comcast.net wrote:

 2.5 miles from last fall? ugh

 I doubt many will be foudn unless they are on roofs or on the street. Hope 
 that area does not have a street cleaner that goes down the streets. Someone 
 should star a free roof cleaning business and gutter clean out in the next 
 week before someone else gets the idea.



 -Rex Scates

 Scaleobjects.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook

[jason utas]

Hello All,
Texture's completely off.  Newly found Holbrooks can be weathered. but
always show a discrete layer of fusion crust that has not been
mechanically altered much since 1912.  Surface rust, yes.  Places
where it has chipped off, yes.  Contraction cracks...usually.

But, little abrasion -- certainly not extensive sand-blasting.

The stone pictured has been desert-varnished to the point that it has
remnant-crust, or a layer of thin-to-non-existent fusion crust,
which, as Mendy notes, is similar to the weathering seen on NWA's.

If it's a Holbrook, it's a find from a unique area where the stone has
weathered differently from...any other Holbrook I've ever seen.

A real one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-11-4-gram-HOLBROOK-METEORITE-ABOUT-90-CRUSTED-/221144642054?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item337d3f7206

Note the fine detail still present on the crust.

And again:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-18-6-gram-HOLBROOK-METEORITE-ABOUT-50-CRUSTED-/221144641606?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item337d3f7046

Jim Steele is also offering Buzzard Coulee, Ash Creek, Mifflin and
Park Forest.  Anyone want to try to get some photos?  He could have
purchased the Holbrook/other stones, so not trying to point any
fingers here.

Kudos to Mendy for spotting this one - completely missed it.

Regards,
Jason



 From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net
 Date: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 11:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook
 To: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com, Meteorite List
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 I am pretty sure Steve Shoner has found more
 Holbrook than anyone on the list...
 Stevewhaddayathink? Of is a photo insufficient
 To form an opinion?
 Michael

 On 10/25/12 8:31 AM, Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com wrote:

 There is a large 53.3g Holbrook being offered for sale on Facebook that
 looks a bit weird to me.  The seller, Jim Steele, states that he found it in
 1998.  I do not see contraction cracks or other features that I associate
 with recently found Holbrooks. It looks like an NWA to me.  I know there
 are true Holbrook experts on this list that could instantly tell, so before
 I call BS on this offer, I'd like to get a second or third opinion.  I know
 not everyone on this list is on FB, so if you do not have a FB account, I
 can email you the picture.  In case this is real, please PM me and based on
 responses, I will let everyone know the verdict.
 http://on.fb.me/P5n9xR
 Regards,

 Mendy

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Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook

[jason utas]

Hello Jim,
I see finely textured crust with surface rust.  Looks like a Holbrook.
 I think the lighting of the photo on facebook is throwing you off.
It's quite different.
Regards,
Jason

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Jim Wooddell jimwoodd...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Jason!

 So what do you think about this one?

 http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa325/desertsunburn/IMG_3252.jpg
 which is a Holbrook found on the 99th Anniversary of the fall.

 Jim




 On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 12:22 PM, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello All,
 Texture's completely off.  Newly found Holbrooks can be weathered. but
 always show a discrete layer of fusion crust that has not been
 mechanically altered much since 1912.  Surface rust, yes.  Places
 where it has chipped off, yes.  Contraction cracks...usually.

 But, little abrasion -- certainly not extensive sand-blasting.

 The stone pictured has been desert-varnished to the point that it has
 remnant-crust, or a layer of thin-to-non-existent fusion crust,
 which, as Mendy notes, is similar to the weathering seen on NWA's.

 If it's a Holbrook, it's a find from a unique area where the stone has
 weathered differently from...any other Holbrook I've ever seen.

 A real one:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-11-4-gram-HOLBROOK-METEORITE-ABOUT-90-CRUSTED-/221144642054?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item337d3f7206

 Note the fine detail still present on the crust.

 And again:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-18-6-gram-HOLBROOK-METEORITE-ABOUT-50-CRUSTED-/221144641606?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item337d3f7046

 Jim Steele is also offering Buzzard Coulee, Ash Creek, Mifflin and
 Park Forest.  Anyone want to try to get some photos?  He could have
 purchased the Holbrook/other stones, so not trying to point any
 fingers here.

 Kudos to Mendy for spotting this one - completely missed it.

 Regards,
 Jason



 From: Michael Blood mlbl...@cox.net
 Date: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 11:37 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Holbrook for sale on Facebook
 To: Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com, Meteorite List
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 I am pretty sure Steve Shoner has found more
 Holbrook than anyone on the list...
 Stevewhaddayathink? Of is a photo insufficient
 To form an opinion?
 Michael

 On 10/25/12 8:31 AM, Mendy Ouzillou ouzil...@yahoo.com wrote:

 There is a large 53.3g Holbrook being offered for sale on Facebook that
 looks a bit weird to me.  The seller, Jim Steele, states that he found it 
 in
 1998.  I do not see contraction cracks or other features that I associate
 with recently found Holbrooks. It looks like an NWA to me.  I know there
 are true Holbrook experts on this list that could instantly tell, so before
 I call BS on this offer, I'd like to get a second or third opinion.  I know
 not everyone on this list is on FB, so if you do not have a FB account, I
 can email you the picture.  In case this is real, please PM me and based on
 responses, I will let everyone know the verdict.
 http://on.fb.me/P5n9xR
 Regards,

 Mendy

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 --
 Jim Wooddell
 jimwoodd...@gmail.com
 928-247-2675
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Re: [meteorite-list] Novato meteorite find

[jason utas]

Hola All,
A big congrats to Brien!  Looks like the first stone -- a highly
shocked ordinary chondrite, type 5-6.  The shiny things you're seeing
are probably Fe-Ni or troilite.
Regards,
Jason


 From: Paul Gessler cetu...@shaw.ca
 Date: Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Novato meteorite find
 To: Brien Cook cont...@briencook.com, meteorite-list
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Kind of looks like maskelynite !
 Reports were that it stuck to a magnet though... Could it be?

 -Paul Gessler







 -Original Message- From: Brien Cook
 Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:37 PM
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

 Subject: [meteorite-list] Novato meteorite find

 I found this in Novato yesterday. To my knowledge it is the second
 meteorite found and the new main mass at 65.9 grams and 49 mm.

 http://briencook.com/Novato_2012-10-22/

 More to follow...
 
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Re: [meteorite-list] Questionable Bediasites on ebay

[jason utas]

Helo Brian, All,
Yep, it's John Bryan Scarborough.

And those aren't the only catch of the day -- I can see only the top
and right edges of this slice, but they're desert-varnished.  No
fusion crust.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LA-CRIOLLA-L6-METEORITE-23-5g-CRUSTED-FULL-SLICE-WITNESSED-1-6-1985-RIKER-BOX-/271075445904?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item3f1d5b0c90

I'd guess NWA.

It's a shame, but this material will probably resurface later from
credible sources.  Folks don't seem to be learning.

Regards,
Jason




 From: Brian Burrer brim...@gmail.com
 Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:02 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Questionable Bediasites on ebay
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Greetings list,
 I have noted a couple of recent ebay listings for Bediasite that
 appear fraudulent. They look like Indochinites.  I contacted the
 seller, lonestar*meteorites, to ask for more images of his Bediasite
 inventory during the first listing.  This query was met with anger.
 Now a second listing has appeared and this stone also has surface
 morphology consistant with Indochinites and inconsistant with
 Bediasites.  I would not feel comfortable making purchases from this
 seller.
 Happy hunting,
 Brian
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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite fall on May 20 2012, 22:45 local time, in Aousserd, near Dakhla officially confirmed

[jason utas]

Hello Martin, All,
To be frank, this is a load of rubbish.  It seems that Dr.
Abderrahmane Ibhi is convinced that the meteorite is both a fall --
and a CH-chondrite -- when just about all of the evidence points
towards the contrary.

A close-up photo of the polished surface of one of the stones showed
thorough Fe-staining (100%) and approx. 20-30% of the total Fe
converted into oxides.  That photo has since been deleted from
facebook, and it was the only good photo I could find of the stones
from the supposed fall.

Only two poor photos of the new fall remain:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=207084136080745set=t.10796501615type=3theater

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=212473682208457set=t.10796501615type=3theater

The stones appear to be a fairly typical NWA find.  All sides are
desert varnished, and even from those poor photos, I can see the
development of cracks filled with lighter weathering products/caliche.
 Based on how quickly meteorites weather in Morocco, the pictured
stones have been on the ground for at least several decades.  This
fall is much more extensively weathered compared to recently
recovered Zag and El Hammami/Hammada du Draa.

I also see no reason to suspect that the meteorite in question is a CH
rather than an H-chondrite, as no analysis has yet been performed and
that judgement was apparently made due to the stones' relatively high
metal content.

In short, it's not a witnessed fall (from this past May), and it may
or may not be a CH -- but playing those odds based on metal content
alone probably isn't wise, as H's are fairly common, and CH's aren't.

I'm running a little behind with emails due to coursework at the
moment, but didn't want folks to be misled.  If you're waiting on a
reply from me, please bear with me.

Regards,
Jason

 From: karmaka karmaka-meteori...@t-online.de
 Date: Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:36 AM
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite fall on May 20 2012, 22:45 local
 time, in Aousserd, near Dakhla officially confirmed
 To: met-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Meteorite fall on May 20 2012, 22:45 local time, in Aousserd, near
 Dakhla (Ad Dakhla), Morocco officially confirmed

 http://geologie-maroc.blogspot.de/2012_09_01_archive.html

 translation: 
 http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=frtl=enjs=nprev=_thl=deie=UTF-8layout=2eotf=1u=http%3A%2F%2Fgeologie-maroc.blogspot.de%2F2012%2F09%2Fdecouverte-dune-meteorite-dans-la.html

 http://www.emarrakech.info/Une-autre-meteorite-frappe-le-sol-marocain_a63436.html

 translation: 
 http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=desl=frtl=enu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emarrakech.info%2FUne-autre-meteorite-frappe-le-sol-marocain_a63436.html

 Martin


 
 Postfach fast voll? Jetzt kostenlos E-Mail Adresse @t-online.de
 sichern und endlich Platz für tausende Mails haben.
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[meteorite-list] AD - Tissint on ebay

[jason utas]

Hello All,
Ebay recently gave me the option to list one item without fees, so I
decided to take advantage of it. If you've been looking for a nice
chunk of Tissint, look no further -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230830693084?ssPageName=STRK%3AMESELX%3AIT_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_675wt_1007

This stone has particularly nice crust for Tissint.  I've not seen a
nicer stone in this size range, fully crusted or otherwise.
We do have other specimens of all sizes and shapes available.  If
interested, please send me an email.
Thanks,
Jason


UC Berkeley 2013
College of Letters and Science
Geology, Psychology
www.fallsandfinds.com
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Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info

[jason utas]

Hello Martin, All,
I spent some time looking into the issue as well, after last week's...debacle.

I was unable to find a record of any actual laws pertaining to the
subject, but did find the article that Greg posted and put some
additional work into the matter.

As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol
for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite.  However,
recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the
government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with
those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds.
I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard
similar stories surrounding both Katol and Sulagiri.

The circulars/letters in question appear to have come from the ruling
British Government as instructions for India's Government.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jRUTYAAJpg=PA120lpg=PA120dq=Circular+No.+22-1777+1869+Thorntonsource=blots=xNJjVEoCO4sig=BLjQnyh5DiIn3kY-lwunvpx5Bvohl=ensa=Xei=RZEIUISCJKfe2AWZm7DkBwved=0CEwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepageq=Circular%20No.%2022-1777%201869%20Thorntonf=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=jRUTYAAJpg=RA2-PA95lpg=RA2-PA95dq=Letter+2447+1869+may+indiasource=blots=xNJjVEpvP0sig=wxRxybUsdq_cKITHbT4HfkYFXskhl=ensa=Xei=d5IIUKiVDsKg2gW72ZnGBwved=0CEgQ6AEwAA#v=onepageq=Letter%202447%201869%20may%20indiaf=false

As one can see above, I am directed to request that all Indian
Meteorites may, in future, be transmitted to the Trustees of the
Indian Museum in preference to sending them direct to England.

It would seem that the above letter directly refers to the exportation
of meteorites from India as legal, or at least as legal as it might be
to export a meteorite from England (legal), since the law (if it can
be called that) was a British mandate.

The only person who offered any information along with their claim --
that the export of Indian meteorites was prohibited -- suggested that
the law had been in place since 1885.

I, too, was not able to find any such record.  I was also unable to
obtain a copy of Circular No. 13--975, dated 28th of April, 1863.  I
would like to see a copy of it if anyone can find it.

Until then, and barring additional evidence, I would appreciate an
apology from Greg Catterton.

Regards,
Jason

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Martin Altmann
altm...@meteorite-martin.de wrote:
 Hi,

 I always think, that debates about laws are vain, as long as one has not the 
 very wordings of the law at hand.
 I don't have the Indian law at hand, neither I found anyone, who could show 
 it to me,
 even those, who echo the date from the paper 1885 seem not to have it.

 I by my own found only the same words here:
 Circular No.22-1777, dated 10th of July, 1869, by T.H.Thornton, Secretary to 
 Government Punjab,
 in continuation of circular No.13-975,  dated 28th of April 1863,
 wich is, full quote of the text:
 “directing, that all Indian Meteorites shall be in future transmitted to the 
 Trustees of the Indian Museum.”

 I have no idea, whether that had a status of a law or whether it was only a 
 service regulations to the administrative officers.

 Both, that one and the quote by Schmitt say nothing about ownership, export, 
 compensations ect.

 Then -
 India became independent in 1947 and in 1950 a republic.

 I'm not sure, whether the old laws from the British dominion are still in 
 place.

 If they are btw. what does that mean for meteorites from Pakistan?


 Furthermore:

 Hey reported in 1967 to the UNESCO Working Group on Meteorites,
 that meteorites in India would be treated as bona vacantia as given in 
 article 296 of the Indian constitution.

 Find the article here:
 http://www.indiankanoon.org/doc/290059/

 It says that those ownerless objects found on the territory of India, of that 
 kind, which before would be accrued to the King, will be property of the 
 state or federal state.

 Well, I'm not sure, who is meant be the King from former time.
 Was it the English King George, Emperor of India?
 And if so, was then British Law in place in the colony?
 Because if so, then like still today in U.K. (compare the hilarious debate in 
 the House of Lords about the meteorite bill),
 finds of gold and silver belong to the crown,
 all other you can keep.

 Questions and questions...

 Answer can give only the law, which is in place today.

 But nobody ever saw it :-(
 Martin



 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: cdtuc...@cox.net [mailto:cdtuc...@cox.net]
 Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Juli 2012 19:55
 An: Martin Altmann
 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - 
 good info

 Martin,
 Welcome back to posting. You have been missed.
 You said;
 The information on India doubtful
 This law  is spelled out very specifically and includes the words aerolites. 
 How much more specific could you ask? . .
 In what way do you doubt it?
 As it stands right now. Anybody with India's meteorites in their collection 
 has a tainted 

Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - good info

[jason utas]

Hello All,

Greg Catterton said:

 How can you say that after your first two comments? Anne Black has repeatedly 
 stated Sulagiri and meteorites from India are
 ILLEGAL, same as Berduc and others.

It seems that Anne's word alone is not sufficient to create new laws
in India.  She quoted the 1865 reference to me, and it does not seem
to exist.  Berduc, on the other hand, does appear to be illegally
exported based on what I've heard about Argentina's laws, but I
haven't looked into that and feel unqualified to comment.

 ITS NOT ABOUT ME. Its not about you... its about the export laws that in your 
 first comment above, CLEARLY shows that its not
 acceptable to the local law/governing bodies.

At the time, India was the property of the crown, and Britain has
never had any export laws pertaining to British meteorites.  Thus,
your interpretation of the circulars/letters as some form of a
prohibitive export law makes no sense whatsoever.

It would be like the US restricting the export of meteorites from
Puerto Rico while ignoring/allowing exports from the mainland.  Again,
it simply does not make sense.

You have no evidence to suggest that the export of meteorites from
India is illegal, yet you continue to insist upon that notion.  This
really does seem to be about YOU versus the IMCA.  And ME.  Lol.

Jason

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Greg Catterton
star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Jason said:

  As best I can tell, the existing arrangement is a domestic protocol
 for local officials to follow if they obtain a meteorite.  However,
 recent meteorite falls in India have been commandeered by the
 government by local officials (and, it seems, GSI employees) with
 those officials threatening imprisonment if locals sell their finds.
 I wasn't able to find any legal justification for this, but heard
 similar stories surrounding both Katol and Sulagiri.

 Then said:
 As one can see above, I am directed to request that all Indian
 Meteorites may, in future, be transmitted to the Trustees of the
 Indian Museum in preference to sending them direct to England. 

 Followed by HIS OPINION
 It would seem that the above letter directly refers to the exportation
 of meteorites from India as legal, or at least as legal as it might be
 to export a meteorite from England (legal), since the law (if it can
 be called that) was a British mandate.

 How can you say that after your first two comments? Anne Black has repeatedly 
 stated Sulagiri and meteorites from India are ILLEGAL, same as Berduc and 
 others.
 Dont side step this and confuse the followers with your opinions Jason... 
 Thats almost as silly as trying to redirect this subject to me. ITS NOT ABOUT 
 ME. Its not about you... its about the export laws that in your first comment 
 above, CLEARLY shows that its not acceptable to the local law/governing 
 bodies.

 Your second comment goes on to say that they are to be sent to England. NOT 
 to be sent out of the country to the USA (YOU) or anyone else.
 The meteorites are illegal. Anne knows this, so does the IMCA board. They are 
 just looking the other way when one of the clique does it.

 I would have liked the IMCA board to weigh in on this since it does go 
 directly against the code of ethics, but as usual, they will likely remain 
 silent rather then take action against over half the dealers who are members 
 who are breaking the code of ethics. They board should not speak out against 
 the black market meteorites when they allow members to conduct activities 
 of the very nature they stand against.

 If I wanted, I could send the person who wrote the story the 7 IMCA members 
 info who are selling illegal meteorites (such as berduc and others mentioned 
 recently) with screen captures and everything from the websites they have it 
 listed on... wonder how that would look to the readers who see the replies 
 from Anne and other IMCA members - even though they already know of the 
 activity! Shame on the IMCA for being so shameful in regards to the equal 
 enforcement of its own rules.
 Jason has his blacklist, but as with the IMCA, he picks and chooses who to 
 include. Farmer is not on there, Ward is not, Haag is not. Mike Miller is not 
 (convicted in GA) and so are many others who have been arrested in 
 conjunction with meteorite hunting or sales/export... If your going to toss 
 dirt, make sure you spread it around where it belongs Jason dont just pick 
 and choose.




 Greg Catterton
 www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
 On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites


 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 7:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] International Laws related to meteorites link - 
 good info

 Hello Martin, All,
 I spent some time looking into the issue as well, after last week's...debacle

Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit

[jason utas]

Hello Greg,
The gall you must have to pass on thousands of dollars of fake
material, take donations for a good cause, flake on the cause (but
keep many of the donations) and then rag on me for selling *accurately
described material*...just shove off.  You've done more harm to this
community on your own than most others have been able to manage in the
past fifteen years.
Jason



I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:23 AM,
wanderings...@wanderingstarmeteorites.com wrote:

 Its Commonly known meteorites from India are illegal without export
 permits, but yet Suligiri and now Katol is  offered by many IMCA members
 for sale. Guess the meteorite police, IMCA member and seller of this
 (Katol) Jason Utas needs to add himself to his blacklist for selling
 illegal meteorites! Question is, where is the IMCA to take action
 against jason for illegally exporting or receiving these for sale?

 Greg C,

  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit
 From: Me Teor m3t30r1t3...@gmail.com
 Date: Sat, July 14, 2012 11:39 am
 To: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Meteorite Central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

 Dear Shawn
 You are absolutely correct. It is illegal to collect meteorites in
 India. And meteorites are government property. The authority for this is
 the Geological Survey of India. And as far as I know, they never trade
 or deal with any individuals or private institutions. There cannot be
 any export papers as export is banned.

 Although I wonder how having a export paper or certificate helps ?

 If a specimen is up for sale, it is definitely out of the country and
 has been exported.

 By the way does anyone have a analysis report on this new find ?

 M.E.

 On 14-Jul-2012, at 3:32 AM, Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Hello Listers,

 From my understanding, meteorites that fell or are found after 1885 in 
 India would be forwarded to the Government Geological Museum which would 
 take over possession of the meteorite? If so, how is Katol exempt from 
 this, or was Katol sold by the Museum? For those who have gotten some of 
 this meteorite fall, will their meteorites come with export papers like how 
 Canadian falls are handled?

 Shawn Alan
 IMCA 1633
 eBay store
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html?
 http://www.meteoritefalls.com/
 __

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Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit

[jason utas]

Greg,
Like your NWA's (maybe from Algeria), Camel Donga (no export permit)
and Almahata Sitta (possibly legal at best) on ebay -- to say nothing
of everyone's Sulagiri and most of the Canyon Diablo on the market
today?  How about those Sikhote's you're offering?  Exported before
Russia cracked down on exports, I take it?  Please.

I can name several people who donated to your museum who you still
haven't refunded.

There's a difference between cheating people and offering a new
meteorite for sale, but I wouldn't expect you to see the difference.

Keep attacking me, and me alone.  We all know what's going on here.

Jason

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Greg Catterton
star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote:
 1. You know more then well I was told it was Mifflin. I FULLY REFUNDED 
 EVERYONE. Case closed. YOU can shove off I had several still not return 
 material to me even though they were refunded..., including Mike Cottingham, 
 and John Helm.

 2. I spent several thousand of my money to try to open the museum. It failed. 
 What can I say? I tried... Again, you can shove off
 3. I have returned EVERYTHING donated minus one person who I have talked to 
 about it. YOU did nothing yet run your mouth... again, shove off...

 4. WHAT I DID/DO DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT THAT YOU SELLING ILLEGALLY EXPORTED 
 MATERIAL AND KNOW AS MUCH!!! I didnt know about the mifflin, you know the 
 laws about this, and choose to ignore it!

 your comments are pathetic. YOU are breaking international laws, and are an 
 IMCA member to boot... Where is the IMCA right now when you are selling 
 ILLEGALLY EXPORTED METEORITES? What are they going to do with you breaking 
 numerous IMCA rules? ANYONE from the IMCA care to comment or will they remain 
 quite as that usually do when one of the good ol boys break the rules?




 Greg Catterton
 www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
 On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites


 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 6:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit

 Hello Greg,
 The gall you must have to pass on thousands of dollars of fake
 material, take donations for a good cause, flake on the cause (but
 keep many of the donations) and then rag on me for selling *accurately
 described material*...just shove off.  You've done more harm to this
 community on your own than most others have been able to manage in the
 past fifteen years.
 Jason



 I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time.

 On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:23 AM,
 wanderings...@wanderingstarmeteorites.com wrote:

 Its Commonly known meteorites from India are illegal without export
 permits, but yet Suligiri and now Katol is  offered by many IMCA members
 for sale. Guess the meteorite police, IMCA member and seller of this
 (Katol) Jason Utas needs to add himself to his blacklist for selling
 illegal meteorites! Question is, where is the IMCA to take action
 against jason for illegally exporting or receiving these for sale?

 Greg C,

  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit
 From: Me Teor m3t30r1t3...@gmail.com
 Date: Sat, July 14, 2012 11:39 am
 To: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Meteorite Central meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

 Dear Shawn
 You are absolutely correct. It is illegal to collect meteorites in
 India. And meteorites are government property. The authority for this is
 the Geological Survey of India. And as far as I know, they never trade
 or deal with any individuals or private institutions. There cannot be
 any export papers as export is banned.

 Although I wonder how having a export paper or certificate helps ?

 If a specimen is up for sale, it is definitely out of the country and
 has been exported.

 By the way does anyone have a analysis report on this new find ?

 M.E.

 On 14-Jul-2012, at 3:32 AM, Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Hello Listers,

 From my understanding, meteorites that fell or are found after 1885 in 
 India would be forwarded to the Government Geological Museum which would 
 take over possession of the meteorite? If so, how is Katol exempt from 
 this, or was Katol sold by the Museum? For those who have gotten some of 
 this meteorite fall, will their meteorites come with export papers like 
 how Canadian falls are handled?

 Shawn Alan
 IMCA 1633
 eBay store
 http://www.ebay.com/sch/ph0t0phl0w/m.html?
 http://www.meteoritefalls.com/
 __

 Visit the Archives at 
 http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
 Meteorite-list mailing list
 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
 __

 Visit the Archives at
 http

Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit

[jason utas]

Ditto Michael.  Your personal beef with me and the IMCA for booting
you is sad, but you screwed up in a large way, multiple times.  Way to
brush off the topic of unreturned museum donations yet again.

Almahata Sitta was issued an export permit by the University of
Khartoum.  Whether that is legal in the eyes of the government there
is open to debate.  Either way, the pot's calling the kettle black.

These meteorites were not stolen.  As you say, case closed.

Jason

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Greg Catterton
star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote:
 I am not attacking you by any means. Not like your blacklist website you 
 have. I am simply pointing out the IMCA has FAILED to police its own members 
 and allow them to sell illegal meteorites! I got my Almahatta Sitta from Anne 
 Black, IMCA VP... Talk to her about the legal issues of it as she sold it to 
 me.
 My NWAs are not from Algeria FYI... Please lets name some names and make 
 it clear that there is ALOT of illegal meteorites being sold by IMCA members 
 and the group has failed to clean house for the violations of the code of 
 ethics they swear by so much!

 Again, this is not about me, this is about YOU and other IMCA members 
 breaking the IMCAs rules and ethics codes and the lack of enforcement the 
 IMCA is showing. Lets be honest, you crucify me for a failed museum I tried 
 to open while YOU ARE SELLING STOLEN METEORITES!!



 Greg Catterton
 www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
 On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites


 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:00 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit

 Greg,
 Like your NWA's (maybe from Algeria), Camel Donga (no export permit)
 and Almahata Sitta (possibly legal at best) on ebay -- to say nothing
 of everyone's Sulagiri and most of the Canyon Diablo on the market
 today?  How about those Sikhote's you're offering?  Exported before
 Russia cracked down on exports, I take it?  Please.

 I can name several people who donated to your museum who you still
 haven't refunded.

 There's a difference between cheating people and offering a new
 meteorite for sale, but I wouldn't expect you to see the difference.

 Keep attacking me, and me alone.  We all know what's going on here.

 Jason

 On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Greg Catterton
 star_wars_collec...@yahoo.com wrote:
 1. You know more then well I was told it was Mifflin. I FULLY REFUNDED 
 EVERYONE. Case closed. YOU can shove off I had several still not return 
 material to me even though they were refunded..., including Mike Cottingham, 
 and John Helm.

 2. I spent several thousand of my money to try to open the museum. It 
 failed. What can I say? I tried... Again, you can shove off
 3. I have returned EVERYTHING donated minus one person who I have talked to 
 about it. YOU did nothing yet run your mouth... again, shove off...

 4. WHAT I DID/DO DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT THAT YOU SELLING ILLEGALLY EXPORTED 
 MATERIAL AND KNOW AS MUCH!!! I didnt know about the mifflin, you know the 
 laws about this, and choose to ignore it!

 your comments are pathetic. YOU are breaking international laws, and are an 
 IMCA member to boot... Where is the IMCA right now when you are selling 
 ILLEGALLY EXPORTED METEORITES? What are they going to do with you breaking 
 numerous IMCA rules? ANYONE from the IMCA care to comment or will they 
 remain quite as that usually do when one of the good ol boys break the rules?




 Greg Catterton
 www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
 On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites


 - Original Message -
 From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 6:34 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katol India meteorite - Forbidden Fruit

 Hello Greg,
 The gall you must have to pass on thousands of dollars of fake
 material, take donations for a good cause, flake on the cause (but
 keep many of the donations) and then rag on me for selling *accurately
 described material*...just shove off.  You've done more harm to this
 community on your own than most others have been able to manage in the
 past fifteen years.
 Jason



 I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time.

 On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 9:23 AM,
 wanderings...@wanderingstarmeteorites.com wrote:

 Its Commonly known meteorites from India are illegal without export
 permits, but yet Suligiri and now Katol is  offered by many IMCA members
 for sale. Guess the meteorite police, IMCA member and seller of this
 (Katol) Jason Utas needs to add himself to his blacklist for selling
 illegal meteorites! Question is, where is the IMCA to take action
 against

Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite shower, 8th July, 5:15 am, Jalangi, Murshidabad, West Bengal, India ???

[jason utas]

Hello Martin, All,
Appears to be legitimate.  On the calendar tab near the top, select 9
July, 2012.  On table of contents, select 07 Region and click on
the relevant article in the lower left corner of the left-hand page.
Photo looks good, story sounds good.

http://paper.hindustantimes.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

Most likely an ordinary chondrite, but, in light of the past year, I'm
not willing to bet on it...
Regards,
Jason


On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:20 PM, karmaka karmaka-meteori...@t-online.de wrote:
 Meteorite shower, 8th July, 5:15 am, Jalangi, Murshidabad, West Bengal, India 
 ???


 http://www.asianewsnet.net/home/news.php?id=33136

 http://www.thestatesman.net/index.php?option=com_contentview=articleid=416058catid=35


 Does anyone know more about this?

 Martin


 
 freem...@t-online.de - Die kostenlose E-Mail Adresse unabhängig vom 
 Internetanbieter. Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter 
 http://t-online.de/gratis-email


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[meteorite-list] AD: New Achondrite Fall

[jason utas]

Hello All,
I spent much of the past few weeks working on our website, but a
server crash late last week seems to have erased nearly all of my
recent edits.  To help pass the time while the support folks sort
things out, I decided to re-upload some photos separately and make an
offering directly to the list.

The specimens offered here came from the first batch of stones
recovered from this fall.  We purchased a 155.9 broken stone and
removed the broken portion of the stone (as well as a few extra
slices), leaving the stone ~2/3 intact.

The meteorite appears to be a primitive achondrite with an igneous
texture -- unlike nearly every other primitive achondrite known.
Acapulcoites, lodranites, and winonaites are typically known for their
triple junctions and well-defined olivine, pyroxene, and feldspar
crystals.  The more primitive meteorites from those groups still
contain remnant chondrules, but they are all considered to be
metamorphic rocks, to varying degrees.  This meteorite *could* be
related to those groups chemically and/or isotopically, but it is
structurally distinct and appears to be very unusual.

The overall color of the cut surface of this meteorite is a mottled
off-grey/pale lime-green, with abundant bright green crystals which
are 1) extremely difficult to capture with a camera and are 2) likely
chromium-rich pyroxenes of some sort.  It contains very little
olivine.

Metal is heterogeneously distributed throughout the meteorite.  It
varies in abundance from ~5%wt to 40%wt, and apparently forms solid
aggregates up to at least ~120 grams.

This stone was and is completely pristine.  The cutting was performed
using denatured alcohol in order to prevent oxidation, and this stone
was recovered prior to the fall of any precipitation, which has
apparently been heavy of late.

I have gone through the red antarctic books, the blue antarctic books,
and have seen many strange meteorites since we started collecting in
1998.  This one doesn't match anything I've ever seen.

I don't know how much more of this fall will become available; no new
material from this fall surfaced at the Ensisheim show, so my best
guess is that the total amount of material available to collectors
will likely be limited to a few kilograms.  More could theoretically
turn up, but I doubt that any will be as pristine as this.

The following specimens are available.

-- Part-slices  end cuts --

0.059 grams - cut fragment, some crust, shock vein - $20
6 x 3 x 2 mm.
Photo 1: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/0.059_gram_cut_fragment/DSCN2207.JPG
Photo 2: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/0.059_gram_cut_fragment/DSCN2210.JPG

0.105 gram end cut - crusted, bright green crystal - $40 Note - very
small amount of epoxy on one edge of specimen.
7 x 4 x 3 mm.
Photo 1: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/0.105_gram_end_cut/DSCN2215.JPG
Photo 2: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/0.105_gram_end_cut/DSCN2217.JPG

0.498 gram end cut - shock vein, good green crystals - $175  Cut face
is not sanded, not quite flat.  There is one rust spot on the
exterior, and the rear of the specimen is partly covered in very thin
epoxy layer that could be easily removed.  A little fusion crust is
present on the exposed face of the shock vein.
15 x 7 x 5 mm.
Photo 1: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/0.498_gram_end_cut/DSCN2196.JPG
Photo 2: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/0.498_gram_end_cut/DSCN2197.JPG

1.641 gram part-slice with 25-30% crusted edge - $575 Note - minor
traces of clear epoxy on the edge from cutting.  Similar in quality to
full slices, just smaller.  Sanded on one side, wire-sawn on the
other.
25 x 16 x 1.5 mm.
Photo 1: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/1.641_gram_part_slice/DSCN2190.JPG
Photo 2: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/1.641_gram_part_slice/DSCN2191.JPG
Photo 3: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/1.641_gram_part_slice/DSCN2192.JPG
Photo 4: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/1.641_gram_part_slice/DSCN2195.JPG

-- Complete Slices --

1.145 gram complete slice with 90+% crusted edge - $450
27 x 11 x 1.5 mm.
This slice came from a crusted protuberance adjacent to the broken
face.  It exhibits large areas of crust, but neither side of it is
sanded; the larger cut face is very slightly curved.  It looks great
either way - one edge broke along the melt vein exposing shiny 
iridescent metal/sulfides.  Good green crystals are visible on the
wire-sawn faces.  No rust - think the second photo is reflecting
reddish due to the presence of sulfides.
Photo 1: 
http://www.fallsandfinds.com/attachments/Image/Summer_2012_Fall/1.145_gram_complete_slice/DSCN2200.JPG
Photo 2: 

Re: [meteorite-list] NEW FALL

[jason utas]

Hello Richard, All,
With proper cleaning techniques, I have seen fine flow lines and
delicate ripples, splashes, and flow-lines on the surfaces of several
irons that had been weathered, but were somewhat restored to their
former glory.  Such features are only accompanied by rust when
cleaning is incomplete or when the crust has been removed by
oxidation.

I'm not saying that irons should have all rust removed -- on the
contrary, many irons look better uncleaned, but when considering
Sikhote-Alins, one must look critically at the texture of the surface
one is looking at to determine whether it consists of fusion crust
covered by rust, underlying metal shaped by atmospheric entry, or iron
oxides cemented to the crust or underlying metal.

The 'splash craters' of which you speak always looked like patches of
iron oxides to me.  Some looked vaguely 'splashy,' but they were
almost always surrounded by areas of rust and/or bare metal, which
made me think they were the result of improper cleaning.

My observations may be incorrect, but I've yet to see a convincing
splash crater.  Every feature I would call a 'crater' has had an
upraised rim.

Regards,
Jason

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Richard Montgomery
rickm...@earthlink.net wrote:
 List, and Jason,

 Such impact craters on SA's, especially on shrapnel fragments, have always
 raised my curiousitywith no (well, rare) inclusions to explode during
 incoming flight as you've mentioned, what accounts for the many 'splash'
 type craters on Sikhote Alin?


 - Original Message - From: jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com
 To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com;
 graham.en...@gmail.com
 Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 6:40 PM

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NEW FALL


 Hello Graham, All,
 Krinov concluded that all of these features we call craters are in
 fact small pits caused by the vaporization of more volatile inclusions
 under the fusion crust of the iron.

 In other words, you have a heat-affected zone under the surface of the
 iron, and if you get a more volatile inclusion, it can be heated to
 the point that it vaporizes/expands, creating a small
 explosioncrater in the overlying soft/molten metal.

 This would explain the vast number of such craters seen on Franconia
 irons -- since those specimens contain large amounts of disseminated
 stony particles and troilite, it makes sense that they would contain a
 greater number of inclusions that might create such features (versus a
 relatively homogeneous Sikhote-Alin).

 The exception to this rule would be craters formed on shrapnel, but
 most of those supposed craters I've seen appeared to be exposures of
 where round (troilite) inclusions had been.  The raised rims
 appeared to form from the shear/fracture propagating towards the weak
 point in the meteorite (the inclusion), creating a surface that gently
 sloped upwards to a smooth, round cavity.

 I've seen a few exceptions, but not many.

 Regards,
 Jason

 -- Original Message --
 From: Graham Ensor graham.en...@gmail.com
 Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 6:28 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NEW FALL
 To: MICHAEL JOHNSON rockma...@yahoo.com
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Wow! where is that from Michael/Mike? Strange that it has so many
 small impacts on the oriented ablated leading edge and weird chisel
 marks too? Looks like some satellite debris I've seen before but the
 stoney and pyroxene inclusions plus the entry speed it would have had
 seem to rule that out.
 Curious.

 Graham

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 1:30 AM, MICHAEL JOHNSON rockma...@yahoo.com
 wrote:

 http://www.rocksfromspace.org/new-fall-2012.html
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Re: [meteorite-list] NEW FALL

[jason utas]

Hello Graham, All,
Krinov concluded that all of these features we call craters are in
fact small pits caused by the vaporization of more volatile inclusions
under the fusion crust of the iron.

In other words, you have a heat-affected zone under the surface of the
iron, and if you get a more volatile inclusion, it can be heated to
the point that it vaporizes/expands, creating a small
explosioncrater in the overlying soft/molten metal.

This would explain the vast number of such craters seen on Franconia
irons -- since those specimens contain large amounts of disseminated
stony particles and troilite, it makes sense that they would contain a
greater number of inclusions that might create such features (versus a
relatively homogeneous Sikhote-Alin).

The exception to this rule would be craters formed on shrapnel, but
most of those supposed craters I've seen appeared to be exposures of
where round (troilite) inclusions had been.  The raised rims
appeared to form from the shear/fracture propagating towards the weak
point in the meteorite (the inclusion), creating a surface that gently
sloped upwards to a smooth, round cavity.

I've seen a few exceptions, but not many.

Regards,
Jason

 -- Original Message --
 From: Graham Ensor graham.en...@gmail.com
 Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 6:28 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NEW FALL
 To: MICHAEL JOHNSON rockma...@yahoo.com
 Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 Wow! where is that from Michael/Mike? Strange that it has so many
 small impacts on the oriented ablated leading edge and weird chisel
 marks too? Looks like some satellite debris I've seen before but the
 stoney and pyroxene inclusions plus the entry speed it would have had
 seem to rule that out.
 Curious.

 Graham

 On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 1:30 AM, MICHAEL JOHNSON rockma...@yahoo.com wrote:
 http://www.rocksfromspace.org/new-fall-2012.html
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Re: [meteorite-list] Final report on analysis of fake martian meteorites sold on ebay

[jason utas]

Hello Daniel,
Really great work.  We need more people like you keeping an eye on
this business.  Thanks for all of the time and effort you've put into
improving our community.
Regards,
Jason

 -- Original Message --
 From:  i...@moonmarsrocks.com
 Date: Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 11:00 AM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Final report on analysis of fake martian
 meteorites sold on ebay
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com


 As was previously reported in this forum last month, ebay seller
 steelhorse1994 was dumping fake moon and mars rock displays on
 unsuspecting buyers through ebay listings for over a year. My
 involvement started a few months ago when I recognized the displays were
 suspect and made it my mission to uncover the fraud. I obtained one of
 these displays and solicited the assistance of Dr. Randy Korotev at
 Washington University to analyze it with neutron activation. His initial
 report to me last month indicated that it was NOT a rock from space and
 was indeed terrestrial. I immediately contacted eBay. Two days later,
 the fraud was no longer selling his fakes on eBay. There is still the
 occasional ebay seller reselling some of these fakes, an unfortunate
 repercussion of over 1000 bogus items dumped on eBay.

 Be on the lookout. The clear tell for ALL of his fakes is to observe the
 reverse display side image. It will say in big letters: American
 Meteorite Collectors Society, which of course is nonexistent,
 Authenicity Guaranteed. NOT.

 I followed up with eBay and inquired if they were planning to contact
 all the buyers who bought the fraudulent material. Their response was:
 Oh no, they would have to contact us, and within 45 days of the
 purchase. Are you kidding me? How self-serving is that!

 I have just received the final data analysis from Dr. Korotev regarding
 the display that I sent him and have reproduced his conclusions below.
 If anyone is interested in seeing the hard data (1 page, primarily
 regarding the REE), drop me a note, and I will forward it to you.


 Best regards,

 Daniel Noyes

 ...

 Dear Mr. Noyes:

 Here are the final INAA data on your fake martian meteorite.

 There appear to be no published data for NWA 4925, but according to my
 colleague Tony Irving, NWA 4925 is a depleted, permafic olivine
 shergottite, of which there are several, including SaU 005 and the new
 martian fall Tissint. Your rock is nothing like any of them. It's got
 the geochemical signatures of a terrestrial rock - high alkalis, low Cr,
 granite-like REE pattern.



 ~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+
 Randy L. Korotev phone: (314) 935-5637
 Research Professor fax: (314) 935-7361
 Washington University in Saint Louis koro...@wustl.edu
 Department of Earth  Planetary Sciences http://epsc.wustl.edu/




  Original Message 
 Subject: Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 108, Issue 6
 From: meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com
 Date: Wed, June 06, 2012 9:00 am
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

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 2. Re: International Meteorite Market (Michael Gilmer)
 3. Transit of Venus to take place in less then an hour!
 (Don Merchant)
 4. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then an hour!
 (Graham Ensor)
 5. Re: Transit of Venus to take place in less then anhour!
 (Richard Montgomery)
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 (chris handler)
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 14. Bolide Meteor Fireball Over TX KS OK AR MO 5JUN2012 (drtanuki)
 15. Breaking News- MBIQ Detects Meteor Fireball PA OH ONT WI
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 16. Re: Glatton meteorite returns home for the Jubilee weekend
 (Martin Goff)
 17. Queens diamond jubilee celebration at Glatton with the return
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 18. Meteorite Picture of the Day (valpar...@aol.com)
 19. Re: Queens diamond jubilee celebration at Glatton with the
 return of the Glatton meteorite (Count Deiro)


 --

 Message: 1
 Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:25:56 

Re: [meteorite-list] Coloma/Lotus/SM fall map to date

[jason utas]

Hello Jim, Michael, All,
I'm not so sure about that.  Our team made the majority of its finds
along roadsides because it was the easiest place to spot meteorites.
Hunting in grass as your team did (Mike Hankey) is all very well for
finding larger stones (and congrats on your find).  But - smaller
stones would be much harder to spot in grass.  Finds on trails should
have nothing to do with ethics, as trails typically belong to the land
they run through.
...And that 7.3 gram stone I found was sitting right in the middle of
the trail (I'll post a photo on facebook soon).  I'm impressed by Mark
Dayton's nearby five-gram find -- he must have been bush-whacking, and
there was *a lot* of poison-oak in there.  We spent some time
off-trail in there, but it was tough going, and you'd have to just
about step on a meteorite in order to find it.  Same goes for most
grassy areas.
Jason

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Jim Wooddell nf11...@npgcable.com wrote:
 Mike,

 Which finds are you talking about???

 I think Peter is confirming all of them.


 Jim



 - Original Message - From: Mike Hankey mike.han...@gmail.com
 To: Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 Cc: Marc Fries mfri...@hotmail.com; Meteorite-list
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 12:39 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Coloma/Lotus/SM fall map to date



 i think some finds are also popping up in these locations due to
 err-ummm ethical reasons.. or lack of ethics i should say.

 On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com
 wrote:

 Most found by roads and trails because rest is waist-high poison oak
 slithering with rattlesnakes. 99% or more will never be found.
 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On May 8, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Marc Fries mfri...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Howdy all

 There are a few people keeping track of the Coloma/Lotus/SM meteorite
 fall with maps, and let me give a hat tip to Peter Jenniskens for keeping up
 with the meteorites. He has a regularly updated list of these meteorites
 with masses and find locations:

 http://asima.seti.org/sm/

 I've assembled these and a few others into a strewn field map:


 http://radarmeteorites.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/coloma-ca-strewn-field-map/

 I've been chafing to get up there myself but have been restrained to
 hunting vicariously through others. I'll get up there, but I wanted to point
 out that there is a lot of area on that map with no finds, and that most of
 the finds seem to be close to trails and roads. Looks to me like there's
 still quite a lot of material waiting to be found...!

 Cheers,
 Marc Fries
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Re: [meteorite-list] Front page news

[jason utas]

Hello Rob, All,
Thanks for the note - still amazed at our luck out there.  I wasn't
sure that the reporter would use any of the photos or notes they took,
but it looks like they settled on some of each.  I did mention the
radar returns and showed the data to the reporters to give them an
idea of what we were working with -- the result was that your/Marc's
radar work was noted here:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0430-meteorite-search-pictures,0,3960135.photogallery

...But sadly not in the meat of the article.

I'll be submitting the list of our team's finds to Peter Jenniskens in
the coming days - had to return from the field due to final exams.  We
ultimately recovered fragments or individuals from what were
originally five complete stones.  In my opinion, the ease of finding
these stones is comparable to when Peter and I showed up in Ash Creek
a month after the fall.  I have the feeling that stones will continue
to trickle out for several months..
Jason

On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Matson, Robert D.
robert.d.mat...@saic.com wrote:
 Hi All,

 A friend just gave me a copy of the front page section of Monday's
 Los Angeles Times. The Sutter's Mill fall made the front page --
 above the fold, no less! In fact, Jason Utas appears (along with
 Doug Klotz and Paul Guttmann) in a big color image at the top of
 the front page!  (Jason is also pictured with his find on A6.)

 --Rob

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Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite carbonaceous chondrite 2.07 KG | eBay

[jason utas]

Yo,
Texture's all wrong - it's a river-rock.  Looks like hematite,
goethite, ilmenite, etc - hard to say.
Jason

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Ed Deckert edeck...@triad.rr.com wrote:
 It would have been nice if the auction photos clearly showed the sliced/cut
 surface.  But if Rob is correct (and I expect he is) that would have proven
 it to be a wrong.

 Ed

 - Original Message - From: Matson, Robert D.
 robert.d.mat...@saic.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 11:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite carbonaceous chondrite 2.07 KG |
 eBay



 NOT. Too big for it to have been found where the founder
 said he/she found it.  --Rob

 -Original Message-
 From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
 [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
 Miller
 Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:49 PM
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite carbonaceous chondrite 2.07 KG |
 eBay

 Wow!  New main mass??

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meteorite-carbonaceous-chondrite-2-07-KG-/230785
 770070?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

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[meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough

[jason utas]

This went out to the IMCA list a day or so ago; since then, a little
more information has come to light -- please see below.
-
Hello All,
As you may or may not know, a former IMCA member named John Bryan
Scarborough was found to be selling misrepresented material from at
least four different falls/finds (Mifflin, Ash Creek, Zunhua, and
Deport).

He recently changed his ebay username to lonestar*meteorites, and is
selling the following specimen of Tissint.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-49g-100-CRUSTED-WITNESSED-7-18-2011-/280822837261?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416258700d#ht_500wt_1085

I've seen a significant portion of the stones from this fall, and know
for a fact that stones covered entirely in primary fusion crust are
extraordinarily rare, if not completely absent, from recovered finds.
Even pieces that have some primary fusion crust typically do not
resemble this above stone:

http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/tata_0-81-1.jpg

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=360869963936731set=o.162786720415331type=1theater

As you can see, the crust is thin enough to discern visible olivine
phenocrysts on the fragment showing primary crust, and all of the
other stones pictured are covered in glossy secondary crust that
looks rather different from the specimen on ebay.

The ebay auction linked to above *may* be of a real piece of Tissint,
but I am highly suspicious of it based on its appearance.  The stone
pictured on ebay does not look like any of those stones, and instead
looks like a small complete Camel Donga.

http://www.rocksonfire.com/new_itempage-camel%20donga57.htm

Scarborough is offering another piece of Tissint on ebay, accompanied
by photographs that make it appear to be a specimen purchased from
Darryl Pitt:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/METEORITE-NEW-TISSINT-MARS-SHERGOTTITE-0-662-GRAMS-WITNESSED-FALL-7-18-2011-/280822579982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416254830e#ht_500wt_1085

Which I point out only so that you all know that Scarborough is also
offering Tissint that is apparently real.  However, since the small
individual I regard as highly suspect is not accompanied by such
photos, I would assume that it was not purchased from the same
source, and is thus less likely to be Tissint, given the seller's
history.

Since John Bryan's labels have been wrong in the past,  if you insist
on purchasing specimens from him, I would suggest buying based only on
the appearance of what he sells.  I can offer no other evidence to
suggest that the above stone  is real or fake, but would add that I've seen
some 2.5 kilograms of Tissint in person, to say nothing of photographs.

Regards,
Jason

--

Darryl has since confirmed that the individual of Tissint being
offered did not come from him, though the fragment did; it doesn't
prove anything, but it makes me doubt the individual's authenticity
all the more.

The 27.2 gram slice of Oum Dreyga Brandon mentioned is also most
definitely an L-chondrite (L3/4-6 breccia, to include likely
possibilities).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OUM-DREYGA-H3-5-METEORITE-27-2-g-BEAUTIFUL-THICK-FUSION-CRUSTED-SLICE-/280805041109?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item416148e3d5#ht_692wt_1070

The crust is too smooth and sand-blasted, the broken edges of the
slice are covered in caliche, and it's an L-chondrite.  It's a nice
slice, but it's not Oum Dreyga.

In light of Brandon's recent post and the previous stuff...I really
don't have much else to say.  Brandon's noted that the slice he
purchased from Scarborough was sold as unclassified while this new
slice is being offered as Oum Dreyga.  This rather points towards
Scarborough's being responsible for the errors, though it's still not
proof of fraud.  All one could do is analyze the slice, confirm it is
(not) Oum Dreyga, and...prove what we already know, which is that he
has sold (and is selling) material that is mislabeled.

Does anyone have a solid contact at ebay?  I've called them before
about things like this, but it doesn't seem to do much.

Regards,
Jason
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Re: [meteorite-list] TKW OF THE TATA MARTIAN

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
My initial estimate was off -- apparently 2 kilograms I thought came
'from Morocco' came from another dealer and was counted twice.  I
assumed more was found *because* that amount came out, but it doesn't
look like that happened.
My new estimate is 6 kilograms, 7 tops.
Jason


On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 4:04 PM, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote:
 Hi my friend MikeG and happy New Year!

 but ... I sure hope no one takes any investment advice from you!

 The quality of the meteorites has less impact on the value than the supply
 and demand situation.  NWA 482 is expensive because it was doled it out,
 like Haag with Esquel and any others of a number of highly profitable
 monopolized falls.  This one is clearly not price controllable, it is
 well-distributed whether desireable or not.  The initial sales were already
 made at very low price and those are the guys that are sitting on top of the
 profit, but that is long gone.

 The posts are divided into two groups: the haves and the have-nots.  The
 haves want to drive up the price to lock in a profit (and if they bought in
 at an in-between price, have got to be sweating bullets with the increase in
 material mentioned), so every time they open their mouthes it will be as a
 strategy to claw up the price in a clueless market so far.  The name of the
 game for our high octane meteorite gambling contingent is to buy lower than
 the other guy, that's all there is to be done.

 And the have nots, some are pissed they missed out and either have sour
 grapes, or others who couldn't give a hoot, or ar just happy they don't have
 to deal with all this gambling crap this time around.  And their posts will
 tend to reflect that.

 If no one buys more now, in a few weeks the price will crash whether you are
 a have or a have not.  Doesn't matter what the material is unless it has a
 customer base.  The people that will set the price are not the ones that
 have bought, and not the ones that will wait till the party is over.  They
 are the ones right now that will pony up hundreds of thousands of dollars to
 tide the sources appetites over so they hold out until the Sun rises and
 everyone has to go back to work.  If that money doesn't show up soon ...

 As for science, science doesn't eat meteorites.  With 20 grams most
 everything could be figured out except variations among sampling points.
  Either way, just because the scientists are salivating like us doesn't mean
 all that much more science will be done, and certainly nothing that 100
 grams couldn't handle.  I mean - what are the hypotheses you expect this
 rock will answer?  Not saying there isn't interesting research to be done,
 but it's not for every Tom Dick and Nancy with a lab coat to do.  Two top
 groups will handily characterize it, and they probably have enough material
 on the way already.

 Next time you think a fresh meteorite will demand lots of money just look at
 Allende.  The best meteorite of all (and more interesting than another
 Shergottite) and for years priced below lots of rap including common H's and
 L's.

 If there are 10 kilograms, at only $100/g, that's $1,000,000.00.  Then, if
 it gets retailed at $300/g that's $3,000,000 of capitalization.  Are you one
 of the 10 people ready to plow $100,000 into this?  Or do you think that the
 sale of a micro or oooh, a  one gram specimen for a zillion dollars a gram
 means anything at all except marketing posture (Hey look ten kg is worth a
 zillion becasue I sold ten milligrams for X)?  Because markets have this way
 of getting out of control very quickly, and if the monopoly wasn't already
 established, the cat can never be shoe-horned back into the bag.  Just go
 buy some Chergach, Bassi or Dreyga if you don't want to deal with this one.
  Probably a better investment anyway.  Too much speculation going on with
 the Martian at the moment to be anything other than a gamble.  Nothing will
 be clear on this until the end of Tucson.

 Best wishes
 Doug
 (a have-not)

 Don't worry about that, there's a sucker born every minute.
 (Chicago gambling hall, Michael McDonald, 1867)



 -Original Message-
 From: Galactic Stone  Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com
 To: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Sat, Dec 31, 2011 5:46 pm
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] TKW OF THE TATA MARTIAN


 Hi Adam and List,

 It's the most important fall of 2011 and of the past 50 years.  The
 inner cores of these fresh specimens will provide pristine
 uncontaminated material for science.  This is the freshest Martian and
 planetary there is.  I imagine demand will be quite high, beyond the
 usual frenzy we see at the beginning of all new falls.  This meteorite
 will surely end up in several journals and that will create an ongoing
 demand as new research yields tantalizing clues of the solar system's
 past.

 This goes far beyond any ordinary chondrite fall and will have more
 interest than other Martian 

Re: [meteorite-list] ADVERT / MARS - NO RESERVE - Sleeper Alert

[Jason Utas]

The larger stones Adam just mentioned were part of the first ~5
kilograms recovered and, to my knowledge, none in that size range has
been recovered since.
The total known weight is currently 10-11 kilograms.  Before Luc
announced the fall, it was at 5-6 kilograms.
Jason



On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote:
 From all the reports I have been made aware of, this fall has already 
 handily exceeded the weight of Shergotty (5Kg) and is quickly approaching 
 that of Zagami (18Kg).  The single largest piece I have heard of weighs 
 ~1,500 grams with two others weighing ~900 grams each.  It will be 
 interesting to see the final figures.


 There should be plenty to go around, a collectors dream!


 I can hardly wait to get my hands on a massive chunk.

 Happy Collecting

 Adam


 - Original Message -

 From: Pete Pete rsvp...@hotmail.com
 To: raremeteori...@yahoo.com; meteoritelist meteoritelist 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Cc:
 Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 9:14 PM
 Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] ADVERT / MARS - NO RESERVE - Sleeper Alert



 Has anyone given a speculative total weight to this fall yet?



 Best,

 Pete








 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:32:50 -0800
 From: raremeteori...@yahoo.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ADVERT / MARS - NO RESERVE - Sleeper Alert

 It will be noteworthy to see how this great Martian fall pans out.

 This time, I am relaxing on the sidelines and watching from afar. There are 
 plenty of dealers willing to part with some right now for those who like to 
 be among the first to own some. I may decide to get involved if the price 
 stabilizes before the Tucson show where I fully expect to see a huge amount 
 of it. The marketing posturing seems subdued or at least delegated to the 
 background for now. Perhaps it will explode onto the market by the time the 
 Tucson show rolls around.

 Personally, I am hoping that a price war breaks out so that I can add a 
 giant piece of Tata (b) or whatever they may name it to my collection for 
 a reasonable price.


 Happy Collecting,

 Adam






 - Original Message -
 From: Graham Ensor graham.en...@gmail.com
 To:
 Cc: Meteorite-list List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 4:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ADVERT / MARS - NO RESERVE - Sleeper Alert

 As you have pieces at http://www.rocksfromspace.org/MARS.html of
 around 1g for $500 or $600 then it will be interesting to watch
 thismany on ebay will not know about those and thus it may make
 the $1000/g or more.but the pieces on the website will certainly
 be a bargain then and shouldn't be around for longwill be very
 interesting to see what the price will settle at for this amazing
 fall

 Good luck Darryl.

 Cheers,

 Graham

 On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Ruben Garcia mrmeteor...@gmail.com wrote:
  Oh good, I was hoping you didn't remove the auction? I am curious as
  to just how high it will go.
 
  I think it's a good way to see what price the market will set. Not
  that one eBay auction alone can set a true price - it can give us some
  idea.
 
  Well see,
 
 
 
 
 
 
  On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com wrote:
 
 
  HI,
 
  I did not remove the auction, Abe.
 
  I made a rookie mistake (in my first eBay auction, ever) and I failed to 
  include the keyword meteorite in the title.
 
  The offering is listed on ebay as NEW WITNESSED FALL MARS SHERGOTTITE 
  0.652g
 
 
  All the best / Darryl
 
 
 
  On Dec 30, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Guenther wrote:
 
  Hi Darryl,
 
  I have sold valuable items on eBay but never meteorites so I don't blame 
  you
  for removing the auction. Too bad though. I was looking forward to bid. 
  I am
  always nervous too when I do a no reserve auction. You have to have a 
  pretty
  strong stomach to stick it out to the end but the rewards are high 
  traffic
  and usually the correct fair market value. Unless of course what you are
  selling is available in abundance. In which case yours wasn't so you 
  would
  probably have gotten around the $1k per gram as suggested IMO.
 
  Abe Guenther
 
  -Original Message-
  From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
  [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Darryl
  Pitt
  Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 5:16 PM
  To: Greg Hupé
  Cc: Meteorite-list List
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ADVERT / MARS - NO RESERVE - Sleeper Alert
 
 
  Hi,
 
  I think I speak for a lot of us that the recession is far from over.
 
  Help me to understand, as you're the expert, I'm at a loss to understand
  what's strange about having introduced something to collectors on eBay?
 
 
 
  On Dec 30, 2011, at 4:58 PM, Greg Hupé wrote:
 
  It's already at around $190 per gram...
  I kind of don't think he can retire on $123.88!
 
  I thought the recession was over, strange actions from this particular
  

Re: [meteorite-list] I found these in my safe in a bag..........

[Jason Utas]

Congrats on the new lunar!
Jason



On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Ruben Garcia mrmeteor...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Jim,

 I recognize them. They are specimens I sent you to hold for me... just
 mail em' back. : )

 Just kidding!   They look VERY interesting!




 On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Jim Strope nwa...@comcast.net wrote:
 I don't remember where I got them.  Any Ideas?

 Three little stones with a total weight of 16 grams.

 http://www.catchafallingstar.com/WTFa.jpg

 I cut the one in the upper left hand corner in half.

 http://www.catchafallingstar.com/WTFb.JPG

 Thanks guys...!!

 Jim Strope
 421 Fourth Street
 Glen Dale, WV  26038

 http://www.catchafallingstar.com/

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 --
 Rock On!

 Ruben Garcia

 Website: http://www.mr-meteorite.net
 Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/
 Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=meteorfright#p/u
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[meteorite-list] New Website Up and Running

[jason utas]

Hello All,
I've spent the past several months working on a website in my spare
time.  Unfortunately, it's not as educational as I would have liked
yet because I simply haven't had the time to improve the general
pages.  But there's a reasonable assortment of meteorites for sale,
and I did my best with the photos, some of which are pretty cool (you
might check out the page for the lunar NWA 6470).  I tried to include
a little more information and research than is usually put into such
things, and turned up some cool facts and stories about some of the
specimens being offered.

The URL is:   www.fallsandfinds.com

You'll also find some pieces of new and unusual meteorites as well as
pieces of some meteorites not available anywhere else.

For those of you waiting for a piece of the recent house-hitter from
Poland, I was able to obtain a few grams of Soltmany fragments from a
friend who literally drove all night to get to the place of the fall
shortly after it occurred.  I wasn't really sure what to charge for
them since no one else seems to have any for sale, so I compared to a
few other recent European falls of similar TKW's.

I hope you enjoy the site and pictures and hope to hear from y'all; if
you've got some suggestions, I'd love to hear them.  I'll be uploading
some collection photos soon -- the site is definitely still under
construction, so please stay tuned for updates.
Thanks,
Jason

IMCA 7630
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Re: [meteorite-list] Gold and Iridium content of meteorites(especiallyirons)

[Jason Utas]

Hello Doug, All,
We're looking at an iron meteorite, which is a piece of material in
which predominantly heavy elements have been sorted and accumulated
through processes that took place over billions of years.  Saying that
gold is uncommon in the solar system doesn't mean much; we know that
differentiation has created meteorites with upwards of 50% Ni, so
anomalous concentrations of various heavy elements don't strike me as
strange at all.  NWA 859 (Taza) is a perfect example with an average
of ~2200 ppm Ge (observed range of 1500-5000 ppm).

One might as well state that it is unlikely for iron meteorites to
exist at all because hydrogen and helium make up such a large portion
of the mass in the universe/solar system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements#Abundance_of_elements_in_the_Universe

I'd prefer to trust the basic analytical work of one of the world's
foremost experts on iron meteorites in this case.  Of course, errors
do make it into the bulletin with some regularity, often due to human
error when the data is being transferred.
If in doubt, contact the folks who manage the bulletin.
Regards,
Jason


On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 9:31 PM, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote:
 Hi Mike, Stuart and fellow astrochemisticists,

 The Bulletin is not a peer reviewed place, it is just the world being held
 on a few Atlas' shoulders who are nice enough to slave over it and an
 occasional inaccuracy could happen.  Perhaps it was an issue of optical
 character recognition since mu, the prefix for micro (as in micrograms)
 looks a lot like an m, if you put your astronomer's cap on you'd suspect
 that the simple explanation it is just a run of the mill typo that will now
 be corrected.

 But ... since we haven't analyzed this meteorite, we can't be sure.

 For my argument that it is hogwash that this meteorite would have all that
 gold (so, the bigger picture is, that don't spread the idea that there are
 up to 48 grams of gold in a 32 Kg chunk of iron meteorite or folks will
 forget where it came from and the next thing we know the newspapers will be
 proclaiming that meteorites are loaded with gold).

 OK my argument, referencing Anders  Ebihara, 1982, yes the same Anders that
 (karmaca) Martin kindly contacted not too long ago who invented the term
 poor man's space probe for meteorites, showed that in the Solar system
 there is nearly one hundred-million times more iron than gold in the
 elemental abundances in the Solar System.  Well, if an iron meteorite has in
 round numbers, 900 mg/g of iron (90%), then moving the decimal over 7 zeros,
 we get 0.09 mg Au/g, which is 0.009 mg/g which is 9 ug/g.  Granted, 9 is
 off by a factor of 6x more than is reported for the meteorite but at least
 we are not a factor of nearly 200 off (1500 ug/g = 1.5 mg/g).

 That's all I can say, based on a nice guy's work from 1982... but I'm less
 peer reviewed than the Bulletin so we need someone who is closer to the
 analysis.  Or, perhaps go through a bunch of irons with published analyses
 and just see if anything is over say, 10 ug/g, in which case that would make
 a far more interesting story than a footnote to an analysis on what star
 made all that gold and why.  Was it the home star of Girl from the Golden
 Atom?  Did their society get obliterated?  Did the incredible shrinking ray
 malfunction when reforming their marriage ring?  And what of our adventurous
 and debonair young and gifted chemist?  Stay tuned till next time ;-)

 Kindest wishes
 Doug


 -Original Message-
 From: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com
 To: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com
 Cc: Meteorite-list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Mon, Oct 3, 2011 11:00 pm
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Gold and Iridium content of
 meteorites(especiallyirons)


 Hi Doug and List,

 It sounded awfully high to me also, but what do I know?  LOL

 Quoted below is the text from the write-up.  Notice, the gold content
 is the only element listed in milligrams.

 Here is the text from the Met Bull write-up :

 Northwest Africa 6932 (NWA 6932)
 (Northwest Africa)
 Found: 2008
 Classification: Iron meteorite (ungrouped)
 History: Reportedly found in the Algerian Desert

 Petrography: Plessitic octahedrite with isolated (5% of area) sparks
 and spindles of kamacite; longest bands are ~8 mm long and 0.2 mm
 wide. The material may be reheated; the fine plessite has a granular
 appearance and there are small dark ellipses that may reflect
 resorption of phosphide. No heat altered rim was recognized. Stucture
 Opl.

 Geochemistry: Composition: 4.51 mg/g Co, 69.8 mg/g Ni, 82.4 μg/g Ga,
 380 μg/g Ge, 12.0 μg/g As, 4.12 μg/g Ir, and 1.49 mg/g Au. The
 meteorite has no close compositional relatives. For example, in the Co
 range from 6.2 to 7.5 mg/g, no ungrouped iron has a Au content within
 20% and only Guin and Laurens County have Ir contents within 20% of
 that in this iron, but these irons differ in several other
 compositional 

Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: Cat Mountain on EBay

[Jason Utas]

Lol.  Well I'm sure your contacts will come in handy when I report you
for your suggested assault.
If you'd like to cut the crap, perhaps you can answer my one question,
*Count?*
Jason




On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net wrote:


 -Forwarded Message-
From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net
Sent: Aug 21, 2011 6:50 PM
To: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Cat Mountain on EBay

Dear Utas,

I am Count Guido Roberto Deiro, Lord of Selasco, Precorsano, Canavese and 
Deiro Inferiore e Superiore. (Italian counties in the Region of Piedmonte, 
Italy). I am a member of the Italian Royal House of Savoia (The exiled King 
of Italy's household.) and hold the position of Guadia d'Honore del Tombe del 
Re.
(Thats one of the select noblemen who guards the Tomb of the King of Italy in 
the Parthenon. (The oldest building in Rome.) Italy's George Washington.

A public school in Salto Canavese, Torino, Italy has been named L'Acadameia 
d'Count Deiro in my honor for my subscriptions and support in the 
construction of the facility which serves over 500 grade school children in 
the Valle d'Orco.

I am a Knight Grand Cross and the Grand Chancellor of the Sovereign Dynastic 
Order of St. John - Knights of Malta (One of the oldest orders of chivalry in 
the world.). And a Knight Grand Cross of the Sovereign Military Order of St. 
George. Both positions were aquired through a lifetime of work supporting 
International Red Cross and Refugee Relief on four continents. These 
investitures can only be made by a King, Queen, Prince or Princess. In my 
case, HRH King Michael of Romania, HRH Prince Henri of France and HRH Eric 
von Pappenheim of Germany.

The Governor of the State of Nevada proclaimed that December 29th of each 
year is to be known as Count Deiro Day. The Governor of the State of 
Kentucky  commissioned me a Colonel in the State Guard. (The late Colonel 
Sanders was also an officer.) The City of Las Vegas proclaimed me an 
Outstanding Citizen and named a boulevard Count Deiro Drive. These honors 
were granted in recognition of my years of service to the less fortunate 
citizens of those localities.

Finally, I will only print the operative words in the Certificate of 
Recognition from the United States of America. This Citation recognizes 
certain  services performed by me on behalf of this country  the 
citizens of this country are forever grateful.  Signed. Donald Rumsfeld -  
Secretary of Defense.

I wrote this self serving rant as a paen to your abject stupidity and lack of 
social graces. You do not, even in this armpit of society, adress personages 
of nobility and condition by their surnames. It is a huge insult. Akin to 
calling you a MF or a CS. And my surname is spelled Deiro. Pronounced 
day-row like in dago  :0)

I trust we will not meet in the future lest I swipe a glove across your 
countenance! You have insulted me and I have a right to satisfaction. (Note, 
Rolling Stones 1965). Before accepting and arranging the meetings of seconds, 
you may wish to avail yourself of information concerning my ability with 
swords and firearms. You will find that I am a Prevost d'Armes of the 
International Academie d'Escrime in Foil, Epee' and Saber. Further, I am a 
Certified NRA Instructor with ratings in Home Firearm Safety, Armed Personal 
Defense, Refuse to be a Victim and Pistol.

Nah...Jason and ListThis was all written for laughs...although it is 
accuratebut really, it's not nice to insult, or beliitle people you don't 
really know anything about.  You may be surptised whose ox you have gored.

Now, as to your fascination with the story of the recent Cat Mountain finds. 
Why concern yourself? You aren't in a position to buy any of it.. and it's 
too late now cause it's all gone!  Gone... To happy campers.

Regards,

Guido





-Original Message-
From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com
Sent: Aug 20, 2011 10:20 PM
To: Meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Cat Mountain on EBay

Hello All,
Greg is correct; unless the meteorites have been found in a demarcated
dense collection area, they should not receive separate names.  The
Nomenclature Committee's policies regarding serial naming are rather
clear -- and since the stones are apparently paired, I believe
Franconia is the perfect analogy.  Per existing regulations, these
stones should not receive new names.

If I am to understand correctly, someone of questionable integrity was
involved with the recovery of the third stone.

Since you failed to answer my question in private, Diero, I'll ask you
here -- is that correct?

Regards,
Jason



On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com 
wrote:
 I would think each would be called Cat Mountain, if they are all 
 classified the same as the first one and were found in the same area, 
 suggesting a strewn field.  There are no Franconia 002 or Gold Basin 002

Re: [meteorite-list] Cat Mountain on EBay

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
Greg is correct; unless the meteorites have been found in a demarcated
dense collection area, they should not receive separate names.  The
Nomenclature Committee's policies regarding serial naming are rather
clear -- and since the stones are apparently paired, I believe
Franconia is the perfect analogy.  Per existing regulations, these
stones should not receive new names.

If I am to understand correctly, someone of questionable integrity was
involved with the recovery of the third stone.

Since you failed to answer my question in private, Diero, I'll ask you
here -- is that correct?

Regards,
Jason



On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com wrote:
 I would think each would be called Cat Mountain, if they are all classified 
 the same as the first one and were found in the same area, suggesting a 
 strewn field.  There are no Franconia 002 or Gold Basin 002.  I guess the 
 'name' of a meteorite is one of a single stone or the strewn field.

 My few grams worth.

 Congratulations to all the finders of the new stones and to Count on getting 
 the classification done.  I also look forward to Rubin's article.

 Greg S


 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 20, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote:

 Doug,

 I asked Bob Verish about this a few months ago.  The MetBul does not
 show number designations, it recognizes two stones that make up the
 TKW for the Los Angeles meteorite.  The 001 and 002 designations were
 internal to Mr. Verish for his own record keeping, but I believe he
 said (and I hope he'll chime in and correct me if I am mistaken) he
 used them publically a few times and without realizing it the number
 designation spread.

 -Michael in so. Cal.

 On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 12:13 PM, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote:

 ...



 Finally, can someone say why those incredible US Martians: LA001 and LA002 
 got numbers if they are considered paired?  Bob?  There's no LA003 through 
 LA00n that I'm aware of ... Can a slice of one be distingueshed from 
 another?  Are there other examples of unique / closed numbering?  What ever 
 happened to the protocol of (a), (b), (c), ...

 Kindest wishes
 Doug
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[meteorite-list] Important - Please Read

[jason utas]

Hello All,
Many of you know that a man named John/Bryan Scarborough was recently
removed from the IMCA for selling meteorites that were analytically
proven to be misrepresented.  If you've never heard this before,
please see the list archives:

http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg98693.html

What you might not know is that I personally took responsibility for
(dis)proving the authenticity of his sales after noticing that much of
what he was selling looked funny -- starting back in January 2010.
Ultimately, a number of samples were sent directly from people who had
purchased them from John/Bryan to a lab for analysis, and, as the
above emails details, an Ash Creek turned out to be an H-chondrite,
a fragment of Zunhua turned out to be indistinguishable from
Tamdakht (Zunhua is an L-chondrite, not an H), and an iron that he'd
been selling as Deport turned out to be what is most likely a Campo
del Cielo.

His explanations of how these mistakes had occurred were extremely
dissatisfying; the IMCA board apparently thought as much, because the
opted to remove him from the membership.

The trouble is that someone, apparently, told him that I did much of
the investigative work.  How do I know this?  Jeff Kuyken, on the IMCA
board of directors, just informed me that John/Bryan has changed his
ebay username to meteoritekid, my old internet alias.

My ebay username is *not* meteoritekid.  Please do not buy from
anyone using the name meteoritekid on ebay.  John/Bryan is
attempting to impersonate me online in order to get back at me for
having tracked his shady dealings down.

I would not personally trust the authenticity of any specimen he sells.

I am currently taking a geology field mapping course in Montana and do
not have a working phone.  When I return home in a few days, I will be
pursuing this matter with ebay.  If that does not work, I will pursue
it legally.  If anyone on here has experience with similar issues
within ebay, I'd like whatever help I can get.

- Do not buy from the ebay seller meteoritekid.  It is not me, and
John/Bryan has proven that he is willing to sell a wide variety of
material that is misrepresented.

Thank You,
Jason

[IMCA 6730]
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Re: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal

[Jason Utas]

Hello Laurence, Doug, All,

From an NAU site about R-chondrites:

sulfide rich: pyrrhotite and pentlandite very common, minor troilite;
pentlandite commonly contains Cr up to 2 wt%, troilite may contain Ni
up to 3 wt%

http://www4.nau.edu/meteorite/Meteorite/Rumuruti.html

Which raised the question -- what is troilite and what is pyrrhotite?

Pyrrhotite is an unusual iron sulfide mineral with a variable iron
content: Fe(1-x)S (x = 0 to 0.2). The FeS endmember is known as
troilite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhotite

So, troilite is always pyrrhotite, but pyrrhotite isn't always troilite.

I don't know whether the sulfides in R-chondrites is primarily FeS
where S=1 or S1, but the distinction is rarely made except in
academic circles.  In fact, none of the following top hits goes into
any depth regarding pyrrhotite vs troilite concentrations in
R-chondrites.  These were the first three I found:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1994Metic..29..275S

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1994Metic..29..255R

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009281911000237

- The only source I found in my short quest for knowledge that
bothered to note how much troilite is (typically) present in
R-chondrites is the NAU website.

You may well be right, but since troilite is typically present in
rather minor concentrations in most meteorites, I have the feeling
that they are not depleted in it relative to most other types...but I
could be wrong.

For the purposes of Pete's visual observations, I think we can assume
that he meant sulfides in general, since I doubt he has the analytical
capability to tell between FeS (S=1) or FeS (S = 1 to 0.8).

When I saw Pete's note, I immediately thought of R-chondrites,
too...though I wonder if his stone might not be an LL-chondrite.  We
have a few R's, and when poked with a neodymium magnet, the pull is
*barely* discernible, to the point that I might call them entirely
non-magnetic if I weren't being careful.

Regards,
Jason



On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 6:15 PM, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote:

 Hi Laurence

 Sulfur stinky yes, I don't think R chondrites are considered troilite rich -
 are they not comparatively troilite poor? That's why I asked why he wasn't
 after pentlandite (and pyrrhotite) as well. The question is pretty useless
 trivia without more information about what the asker is after ... , Sulfur
 (check), Sulfides (check), Low free metals, terrestrial weathering,
 different alterations, they are all bundled up together. I mean, R
 chondrites are loaded with metal but it was oxidized after the formation,
 right? Considering, they are quite troilite poor unless the objective is
 sulfur-rich meteorites and not after troilite after all... maybe perhaps who
 knows

 Best Doug
 (Thinking of Mrs. Pennyfeather now!)


 -Original Message-
 From: Laurence Garvie lgar...@asu.edu
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Sun, Jun 26, 2011 8:15 pm
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal


 The Rumuruti (R Class) chondrites lack free metal and are sulfide rich.


 Laurence
 CMS
 ASU


 On Jun 26, 2011, at 2:19 PM, meteorite-list-requ...@meteoritecentral.com
 wrote:

 Message: 13
 Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:55:17 -0400
 From: Pete Pete rsvp...@hotmail.com
 Subject: [meteorite-list] Stones with High Troilite, Low Metal
 To: meteoritelist meteoritelist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Message-ID: bay153-w48a18a066f0629249c54c5f8...@phx.gbl
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1




 Sorry about that - once more with a subject:



 Hi, All,

 Is there any particular stone meteorite that has a high content of

 troilite
 and a low content of free metal?



 Cheers,

 Pete

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Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Warning about Lahcen Ait Ha

[Jason Utas]

Hello All,
Please be aware that the seller (Lahcenia Ait Ha or Lacenia Ait Ha --
or apparently Lahcen Ait Ha) has changed his facebook user name and is
now going by the name Lhou Ait Ha.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=10954047781

I de-friended the fellow some years ago because his communications
made me uncomfortable.  He didn't have any references, and I found a
negative past reference to him on the list:

http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com/msg56009.html

My last communication with him was in 2010.  Apparently he's still around...

Dan -- please think about what you are suggesting.  Would you say the
same thing to all US dealers if one of them was proven to have somehow
swindled people?  Maybe, but I have the feeling that such a demand
would seem a little over-the-top.  You are indeed entitled to your
opinion.

Regards,
Jason



On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Dan Furlan danfur...@gmail.com wrote:
  I'd like to speak for myself  and say I'm not ordering anything from
 Morocco until Gary gets his money back.  I just canceled an order for
 75 kilos because I am not risking my money with somebody who may know
 this guy who ripped off Gary.  I do not support this kind of behavior
 and i already heard to be careful when dealing directly with the
 Moroccans.  What just happened to Gary didn't happen from some fly by
 night con artist, this guy has sold stuff before and is known amongst
 the Moroccans.   It's going to take a lot more then throwing a few
 names at me to earn my trust I want to see them do something about
 this and self regulate themselves before i send a few thousand dollars
 by western union.  Anyways this is how i feel and im entitled to say
 and do whatever i want especially since i know Gary and I am very
 upset in learning that he got cheated out of his hard earned money.
 The honest Moroccan dealers need to be concerned when somebody from
 their circle of business associates is pulling scams as it has a
 ripple effect on their over all image.. the same concept applies when
 IMCA is concerned when one of their own isn't playing by the rules,
 same principle in effect here according to me.  this is my opinion and
 i stand behind it 100%
 Daniel Furlan

 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 1:37 AM, bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com wrote:

 This is going way too far. Nobody over there owes anyone jack. To insinuate 
 that honest dealers in Africa or anywhere else have a responsibility to hunt 
 down deadbeats is moronic. We know the risks involved unless we WERE born 
 yesterday. I believe I speak for everybody when I say you don't even come 
 close to speaking for everybody.


 
 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 01:21:20 -0400
 From: danfur...@gmail.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.comki
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Warning about Lahcen Ait Ha

 I would like to see that every Moroccan dealer who knows this
 disgraceful person named Lacen Ait Ha do everything they can to help
 Gary get his money back. I know Gary gives the Moroccans lots of
 business and i feel they owe him the professional courtesy to hunt
 down this very bad apple and have a serious talk with him. A few of
 the Moroccan dealers I have spoken to asked me if i know Gary Fujihara
 to build trust with me. The same people who use Gary's name to build
 trust with me to do business, owe Gary the professional courtesy and
 have the responsibilty to find this guy Lacen Ait Ha and make sure he
 sends Gary all the money back plus the cost of shipping those bogus
 rocks back to Morocco. We are not stupid people in North America and
 we were not born yesterday and i believe i speak for everybody when i
 say we want to see Gary get his money back. Find a way to make it
 happen, end of story.

 Daniel Furlan
 collector and dealer
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Re: [meteorite-list] Russian Pig-Killing Fall? (dated)

[Jason Utas]

Hello Daniel,
Definitely -- I find that the Harvard adsabs site is a great source of
older papers.
I'm glad you made a lower offer on it; every single one of those books
is available for free viewing and download on Google Books.  A few
dollars for the convenience of having them on a CD is fine, but I'd
make sure to let list-members know that they can download the files
for free by searching for the titles on Google Books.
Regards,
Jason

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Dan Furlan danfur...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey Jason if you like reading old articles and books about
 meteorites you might be interested in this item on ebay: 130343554207
 i offered the guy 3 bucks and he accepted it.. thought maybe you would
 be interested since the article you posted is almost 100 years old and
 its interesting how they talk about meteorites in the old days before
 the science was developed to properly classify them and describe them
 etc...
 Daniel Furlan
 collector and dealer
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[meteorite-list] Russian Pig-Killing Fall? (dated)

[jason utas]

Hello All,
For those who keep track of such things, I stumbled across an account
of a meteorite having fallen and killed a pig:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1939JRASC..33...51M
(scroll to bottom)

I looked in vain for the reference [E. Endukova, 1929], but it does
not appear to exist online.
Regards,
Jason
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Re: [meteorite-list] Illinois, Indiana, Ohio glacial deposits

[Jason Utas]

Hello Dave, All,
I doubt that the stones that you have found were glacially deposited.
The larger one appears to be fusion crusted and relatively fresh on
the inside; it seems highly unlikely that it could be 13,000 years
old, terrestrially speaking.  Ohio's far too wet to preserve a
meteorite that well for so long.
Congrats on the nice finds, regardless.  Get 'em analyzed and in the books!
Regards,
Jason



On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Dave Myers whitefalcons...@yahoo.com wrote:
 Hi Mike you may be right.

 But the two chondrites are so different, I do not think there from the same
 fall. But they both could be from different falls??


 And when you look at the glacier map I posted with all the iron finds in south
 west ohio, non of them are paired?


 just my thoughts.

 Thanks again

 Dave Myers








 - Original Message 
 From: meteoriteguy.com m...@meteoriteguy.com
 To: Dave Myers whitefalcons...@yahoo.com
 Cc: tracy latimer daist...@hotmail.com; 
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thu, June 9, 2011 9:29:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Illinois, Indiana, Ohio glacial deposits

 Guys,
 It is very unlikely that these
 Chondrites are related to the glaciation. Just appears to be a strewnfield 
 like
 any other.

 Michael Farmer

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jun 9, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Dave Myers whitefalcons...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Hi Tracy

 All the green areas on the map are high glaicer morians It does not show 
 the

 smaller ones in Butler county and other countys.

 There is a farm on the Butler-Hamilton county line most of it in Hamilton
 county, Has a perfect out line u shaped of a morian on that farm.

 I want to hunt that really bad.

 Will ask next them next year.


 Dave Myers



 - Original Message 
 From: tracy latimer daist...@hotmail.com
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Sent: Thu, June 9, 2011 9:16:32 PM
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Illinois, Indiana, Ohio glacial deposits


 That was my thought as well.  There seem to be parallels here between the
 Muonionlusta field, which has been relocated by glacier, and the stones you 
 are

 finding.  Are they in terminal moraines, or individuals in fields?  There is 
 a

 reason why Moraine, OH was named that!

 Best!
 Tracy Latimer
 
 From: mikest...@gmail.com
 Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 15:31:26 -0700
 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Illinois, Indiana, Ohio glacial deposits

 Maybe it would be appropriate to bring out some larger coils, like are
 commonly used in the Muonionalusta field, to look for deeper stones?

 -Michael in so. Cal.

 On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:11 AM, E.P. Grondine wrote:

 Hi everyone -

 Well, the meteorites won't be pristine, with some 13,000 years of 
 weathering,

 but then -

 Who'd have thought that the mid center of the US would have had its own
 meteorite transport system, one paralleling that in Antarctica in some ways?

 Dave, thanks for sharing.

 E.P.


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Re: [meteorite-list] San Juan Capistrano

[jason utas]

 an entire area upprobably covering up stuff
 from the construction of the freeway.  I have found meteorites on both
 side of this plowed up area.

 So while the strewnfields are often huge, any development in them
 reduces the possibility of some good finds!

 It seems on this one in the list however, does not have a strewnfield.

 Cheers!

 Jim Wooddell
 http://desertsunburn.no-ip.org



 On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 8:51 PM, jason utas jasonu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello All,

 I've gotten the impression from the emails on the list that people
 believe that this fall consisted of two separate stones.  The fall
 consisted of a single stone that fell without sonic effects or any
 real witnesses; a neighbor recalled hearing a loud noise (when the
 stone likely hit the awning that it penetrated), but, had it not been
 for the astuteness of the homeowner whose property was damaged, the
 fall would likely have gone unnoticed.

 The fragment mentioned as having been found in a gutter a month later
 was found in the gutter of the same awning that the main mass
 penetrated, and most likely broke off of the main mass when it hit the
 awning.

 It would undoubtedly be worthwhile to look for other fragments in the
 surrounding area, but we must put things in perspective.  Since
 strewn-fields are almost always miles in width, let alone length, the
 fact that the relatively tiny development is being resurfaced seems
 unimportant, at least to me.  The area is bordered by rolling grassy
 hills that are in no immediate danger of being developed.

 - To say nothing of the fact that the illegal night-time hunting
 for/of new Canyon Diablo specimens is apparently widely accepted by
 our collecting community.

 California's second witnessed fall was heralded by a witnessed, large,
 fragmenting fireball; there's more of that to be found, for those who
 have the time and are experienced backpackers...

 Regards,
 Jason
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