RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn't agree with many of Scott's points. Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you're printing this email, you're doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Sorry to tell you but I'm so sick of Scott's overly-opinionated attitude. He has(had) access to a fair bit of internal knowledge inside Microsoft that he saw through his own eyes and now he got out and he's spitting everywhere around him having no clue about the (moral) damage he does to people he used to work with ... and maybe even his friends (though I doubt he had too many). We all know there is no company that is perfect and everywhere there are communication issues and we are all people with different attitudes and different opinions and yes, sometimes we don't agree but that's why we are smart and can talk and come to agree or disagree and move on. I so much dislike his attitude and I've been there I know it all, it's doom day and all Microsoft should do the way I think cose they are all dead. I bet you he left Microsoft because someone refused repeatedly his request to move up the food/management chain in a position where he can take bigger decisions that he thinks can do .. which got him extremely frustrated :) I would not like to work with next to him in any project as I would feel the day he leaves he will turn around and spit on everyone's head. The article (just like his daily tweets that people hand on to like God's words) is yet another massive frustration throw up and I know everything attitude. Some comments are very good at exposing this. My 2 cents, (very personal opinion) Corneliu. PS I do take notes of his opinions when he stops being morally and verbally violent to the people around him and his ex-colleagues and a complete frustration declaration. This is simply called being polite to your peers. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com [danlaz...@arcamis.com] Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Great and gutsy email Corneliu... I agree with and fully support what you have said. Scott needs to walk away and take a good hard look. - Darren Neimke From: Corneliu Tusnea Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:06 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Sorry to tell you but I'm so sick of Scott's overly-opinionated attitude. He has(had) access to a fair bit of internal knowledge inside Microsoft that he saw through his own eyes and now he got out and he's spitting everywhere around him having no clue about the (moral) damage he does to people he used to work with ... and maybe even his friends (though I doubt he had too many). We all know there is no company that is perfect and everywhere there are communication issues and we are all people with different attitudes and different opinions and yes, sometimes we don't agree but that's why we are smart and can talk and come to agree or disagree and move on. I so much dislike his attitude and I've been there I know it all, it's doom day and all Microsoft should do the way I think cose they are all dead. I bet you he left Microsoft because someone refused repeatedly his request to move up the food/management chain in a position where he can take bigger decisions that he thinks can do .. which got him extremely frustrated :) I would not like to work with next to him in any project as I would feel the day he leaves he will turn around and spit on everyone's head. The article (just like his daily tweets that people hand on to like God's words) is yet another massive frustration throw up and I know everything attitude. Some comments are very good at exposing this. My 2 cents, (very personal opinion) Corneliu. PS I do take notes of his opinions when he stops being morally and verbally violent to the people around him and his ex-colleagues and a complete frustration declaration. This is simply called being polite to your peers. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com [danlaz...@arcamis.com] Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
I think everyone should try to keep their cool. Although I may not agree with Scott's *opinion*, it is his opinion in some sense, and everyone has a right to say whatever they want, whether it's right or wrong. I didn't read his entire post, but I think it's definitely a combination of being disgruntled and confused with Microsoft. So long as everyone still has faith in the technology and are not swayed with comments like his in the community, there's really no merit for a flame war, even if he started it. I definitely don't see WPF dieing anytime soon, a lot has been invested and still will be to it, the only dieing that I see is going to happen will more than likely be convergence with Silverlight, if it was to happen someway some how. HTML5 may be awesome, and fit the needs for what these two technologies can do, but it's like any web standard it's contemporary, and fits the trend. WPF/Silverlight will still inevitably innovate faster and keep up with trends than browser vendors would. --Winston On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:40 PM, Darren Neimke darren.nei...@live.comwrote: Great and gutsy email Corneliu... I agree with and fully support what you have said. Scott needs to walk away and take a good hard look. - Darren Neimke *From:* Corneliu Tusnea corneliu.tus...@readify.net *Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:06 PM *To:* ozSilverlight ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com *Subject:* RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Sorry to tell you but I'm so sick of Scott's overly-opinionated attitude. He has(had) access to a fair bit of internal knowledge inside Microsoft that he saw through his own eyes and now he got out and he's spitting everywhere around him having no clue about the (moral) damage he does to people he used to work with ... and maybe even his friends (though I doubt he had too many). We all know there is no company that is perfect and everywhere there are communication issues and we are all people with different attitudes and different opinions and yes, sometimes we don't agree but that's why we are smart and can talk and come to agree or disagree and move on. I so much dislike his attitude and I've been there I know it all, it's doom day and all Microsoft should do the way I think cose they are all dead. I bet you he left Microsoft because someone refused repeatedly his request to move up the food/management chain in a position where he can take bigger decisions that he thinks can do .. which got him extremelyfrustrated :) I would not like to work with next to him in any project as I would feel the day he leaves he will turn around and spit on everyone's head. The article (just like his daily tweets that people hand on to like God's words) is yet another massive frustration throw up and I know everything attitude. Some comments are very good at exposing this. My 2 cents, (very personal opinion) Corneliu. PS I do take notes of his opinions when he stops being morally and verbally violent to the people around him and his ex-colleagues and a complete frustration declaration. This is simply called being polite to your peers. -- *From:* ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [ ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com [danlaz...@arcamis.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM *To:* ozSilverlight *Subject:* Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer -- ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Nice post Jordan ;) My thoughts personally is there is room for both and I'm on record by saying msft should consider using sl + ie together to handle the html5 execution silently - it drives ubiquity and upholds both sides of the isle. Wpf has had little or next to no investments beyond what the vs2010 team needed and some basics from variety of community sources if any. It's had zero marketing budget and wasn't even mentioned as a developer story in win7 launches. Declaring it dead is easy, burying the corpse is the hard part ;) Win8 team aren't taking bets on it so say what u will but either I am right or msft tomorrow makes an official declaration of how they plan to pump some momentum behind it. Either outcome is pushing the old with new forward for a greater good and won't be suddenly dumped on everyones laps at a point where it's too late to steer a different direction. Dead doesn't mean instantly gone it can take years - look at xp. It just signals to all get off or else is all :/ I am pro wpf / silverlight btw and want these to continue to grow -- Sent from my mini iPad nano (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this device as small keys) On 15/09/2010, at 11:17 AM, Jordan Knight jak...@gmail.com wrote: I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/)... I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. My 2 cents :) On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie tat...@oddie.com.au wrote: Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many of Scott’s points. Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/ http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/ )... I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. My 2 cents :) On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie tat...@oddie.com.au tat...@oddie.com.au wrote: Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many of Scott’s points. Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. *From:* ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] *On Behalf Of *danlaz...@arcamis.com danlaz...@arcamis.com *Sent:* Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM *To:* ozSilverlight *Subject:* Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.comozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight -- Paul Stovell ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
... to bump that chain of thought - plugins are easer to install / get installed than browsers. And, plugins don't wreck corporate apps built around SOE (i.e. upgrade from IE6). I like your points John - ubiquity is the key to the reach argument. On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:34 PM, John OBrien j...@soulsolutions.com.auwrote: The sad part about HTML5 is all the awesome innovative stuff we've seen out of MSFT powered by Silverlight will now have to been slowly ported over HTML5 and the loser is new innovation. Great that it will have more reach but from an innovation point of view it sucks. Example Photosynth, sure a pure HTML5 version would be great but it will cost all the dev resources to do it and we don't get anything new. It is a real pity that the right decision is to spend your time on boring HTML5 rather then doing new work that has never been done before in Silverlight. From a business point of view how do you allocate your resources for a RIA? 1) HTML4 / AJAX - greatest reach for some time, limited functionality 2) HTML5 - potential for greater reach, build RIAs, limited tooling 3) SL - suffer from the plugin install issue, richer experience, good tools. My guess is conservative managers are going to choose 1+2, if not just 1 and wait till 90%+ of devices have HTML5 caps. -- CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com From: scott.bar...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:05:52 +1000 To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com Whe u say they who are u referring to? Developer division or ie / windows team? And who has right of way in terms of budgets and launch timelines? Msft has loads of money but if you have ever sat in a review of the business etc u will note that being held fiscally accountable is very important. 200+ devs are on sl today how many do u think work on IE? Or the variety of tooling and also how do u justify the double ups between sl and html5 espec when the later hasn't got an audience really defined yet? Where do u put your $100 spends etc? Who foots the bill on marketing it all? Windows? Office? Vstudio? Expression? Do u know expression teams don't report to the same org tree as silverlight teams do? It's great to say do both but sit down crunch the numbers and factor in divisional politics and welcome to he internal reality of Microsoft -- Sent from my mini iPad nano (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this device as small keys) On 15/09/2010, at 11:50 AM, Perry Stathopoulos psta...@gmail.com wrote: First, everyone should also read Mike Taulty’s post: http://mtaulty.com/CommunityServer/blogs/mike_taultys_blog/archive/2010/09/10/iphone-4-is-dead.aspx Another thing that I didn’t see too much in all this hoopla is talking about the obvious that Silverlight is reaching maturity (not end of life, but normal development cycles vs. double time). MS arrived late to the party in online video streaming. IE is nothing but a punching bag online, so they need to step it up if they want to be taken seriously as an online leader. They surely don’t want to be late again with HTML5. Yes it makes sense to invest heavily early in this new shiny object, lest they arrive late again. *From:* Jordan Knight jak...@gmail.com *Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:17 PM *To:* ozSilverlight ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com *Subject:* Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight -- Paul Stovell ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
A reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. An unreasonable man persists in attempting to adapt his environment to suit himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw. Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Perry Stathopoulos psta...@gmail.com wrote: They is Microsoft. I don’t work for MS, so I don’t not its internals, however I’ve worked for several large corporations and I’m all too familiar with inter-department/division power struggles. This is nothing new. Realistically I’m sure each division is given its budget, timelines and deliverables. That is decided at higher level, which each division must try to influence the decision maker to get what he/she wants. Again nothing new here. As outsiders, we can try to influence the decisions that MS takes. Priorities change in corporations all the time in response to market conditions and customer demands, again nothing new. However, I keep thinking about this quote: If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. -Henry Ford Don’t get me wrong I love SL especially compared to Flash. However HTML does have many advantages. I’m in upper management for a web based company, with tens of millions of visitors per day. So, I have a very good idea of what is going on in the web world including mobile web and what is required to make things work at the speed of Internet. In the Intranet world, things are very different there. MS pretty much owns that, but on the Internet, far from it. IMO that distinction is often not talked about. There are many things that I would do on a company’s intranet, that should simply never be done on a public Internet (think latency and network speed you pour Aussies ;-p) While the official HTML5 spec is a long way to being ratified, it’s already here. With IE9, all major browsers will support many of the major HTML5 elements. So yes Microsoft is investing in HTML5 because it wants to be taken as a serious Internet player. From: Scott Barnes Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:05 PM To: ozSilverlight Cc: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Whe u say they who are u referring to? Developer division or ie / windows team? And who has right of way in terms of budgets and launch timelines? Msft has loads of money but if you have ever sat in a review of the business etc u will note that being held fiscally accountable is very important. 200+ devs are on sl today how many do u think work on IE? Or the variety of tooling and also how do u justify the double ups between sl and html5 espec when the later hasn't got an audience really defined yet? Where do u put your $100 spends etc? Who foots the bill on marketing it all? Windows? Office? Vstudio? Expression? Do u know expression teams don't report to the same org tree as silverlight teams do? It's great to say do both but sit down crunch the numbers and factor in divisional politics and welcome to he internal reality of Microsoft -- Sent from my mini iPad nano (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this device as small keys) On 15/09/2010, at 11:50 AM, Perry Stathopoulos psta...@gmail.com wrote: First, everyone should also read Mike Taulty’s post: http://mtaulty.com/CommunityServer/blogs/mike_taultys_blog/archive/2010/09/10/iphone-4-is-dead.aspx Another thing that I didn’t see too much in all this hoopla is talking about the obvious that Silverlight is reaching maturity (not end of life, but normal development cycles vs. double time). MS arrived late to the party in online video streaming. IE is nothing but a punching bag online, so they need to step it up if they want to be taken seriously as an online leader. They surely don’t want to be late again with HTML5. Yes it makes sense to invest heavily early in this new shiny object, lest they arrive late again. From: Jordan Knight Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:17 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/). .. I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. My 2 cents :) On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie tat...@oddie.com.au wrote: Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many of Scott’s points. Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight -- Paul Stovell ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight -- Paul Stovell ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
and won't be suddenly dumped on everyones laps at a point where it's too late to steer a different direction. Dead doesn't mean instantly gone it can take years - look at xp. It just signals to all get off or else is all :/ I am pro wpf / silverlight btw and want these to continue to grow -- Sent from my mini iPad nano (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this device as small keys) On 15/09/2010, at 11:17 AM, Jordan Knight jak...@gmail.com wrote: I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/)... I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. My 2 cents :) On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie tat...@oddie.com.au wrote: Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many of Scott’s points. Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight -- Paul Stovell ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight -- Paul Stovell
