David Shemano:
The argument is about the effect of minimum wage laws, and if you
can't figure out the difference between minimum wage laws and rising
wages,
Yes, indeed the argument is about the effect of minimum wage laws and it is
based on a fallacy -- actually several fallacies -- including
BBC reported this as having been timed and arranged for US breakfast
television.
It appears that no British reporter was among the select band in the
improvised courtroom, which I find an amazing lack of tact among
coalition allies. Or just possibly it was British low key
calculation of where
by David B. Shemano
Charles Brown writes:
Hey , on an old thread, I haven't seen you since Enron. What to you
think
about bookcooking on Wall Street,now ?
What do I think about it? I am against it.
Look, fraud is illegal in a capitalist economy. There is a certain
percentage
of the
From my favorite film critic on the Internet, next to myself.
http://www.mrcranky.com/movies/fahrenheit911.html
Fahrenheit 9/11
I ask in all seriousness: where the fuck are their balls?
Given the amount of controversy
Kerry takes a stronger pro-Israel line
By Bryan Bender, Boston Globe Staff | July 2, 2004
WASHINGTON -- Senator John F. Kerry strikes a decidedly stronger
pro-Israel position in a new policy paper than he did a few months ago,
as he attempts to enlist the support of Jewish voters who have been
Sowell paints a picture of himself as having a rather shallow grasp of
Marxism, if the narrow experience he describes really changed his mind. I'm
pretty sure that there is no principle in Marxism that says that capitalists
won't lay people off in response to minimum wage hikes, if only as a way
Monoposony theory is standard NC fare, so I wouldn't credit Becker. I'd credit him for
not censoring it out of his course, though.
Becker's one of the worst. He pontificates on all sorts of things (the economics of
crime, discrimination, the family, etc.) but never confronts the real world.
From: David B. Shemano
Some times you guys are just insufferable -- must you always resort to
caricature? Read the entire exchange!! The relevant factor wasn't that
minimum wage laws (not raising wages) reduce employment. It was the reaction
of the government bureaucrats to his suggestion of an
CB: Well, sufferin' suckatash, is he saying the
government bureaucrats were Marxists ?
Many of them are. (present tense) If you get to know them, of course.
But, Charles... don't tell him that. Next thing you know, David Shemano
might be against unions. (It is rumored that organized labor might
It's very common to scaremonger people with oh no! what if the government
of country X, a key source of resource Y, were to be replaced by one less
friendly to the United States? This needs to be challenged.
For this to be a real threat, the hostile government would have to be so
hostile that they
I forgot to mention that this short piece is from today's L.A. TIMES.
-Original Message-
From: PEN-L list on behalf of Devine, James
Sent: Fri 7/2/2004 7:45 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc:
Subject: [PEN-L] the f word
Counterpunch, July 2, 2004
Suicide Right on the Stage
The Demise of the Green Party
By JEFFREY ST. CLAIR
Ignorance of remote causes disposeth men to attribute all events to the
causes immediate and instrumental: for these are all the causes they
perceive.
Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan (1651)
So this
Counterpunch, July 2, 2004
Moore's Fahrenheit 911
Mocking the Moral Crisis of Capitalism
By DOUGLAS VALENTINE
The question is not what goal is envisaged for the time being by this
or that member of the proletariat, or even by the proletariat as a
whole. The question is what is the proletariat
Respectfully, The Greens are proto-fascists. Environment over working
class reality.
Greens have nothing to do with class in terms of production. I think the
class component was important once to certain people.
Ken.
Or... we could point out that Saudi Arabia is not the only supplier to the US. It is
one of the top four
suppliers, the other three being Canada, Mexico, andVenezuela-- and look how
friend the US
govt is to the that government.
The dependency of the US on oil imported from Saudi Arabai
NY Times, July 2, 2004
Marlon Brando, Oscar Winning Actor, Is Dead at 80
By RICK LYMAN
Marlon Brando, the rebellious prodigy who electrified a generation and
forever transformed the art of screen acting, yet whose erratic career,
obstinate eccentricities and recurring tragedies prevented him from
Mr. Sartesian writes:
I am very careful before calling someone a hack. Somebody who makes purely
ethereal distinctions in order to obscure the ugly reality in order to
justify the continuation of that reality is a hack.
Obviously nothing. This is not about simple common sense, as if there
Prof. Devine writes:
individual prices can't be explained or predicted using Marx's labor theory of value
(more accurately, the law of value). Regular micro will do (though not the Chicago
variant). It's a monopoly situation, where the sellers try to get as much of the
consumer
surplus as
Councilor Shemano writes:
We were just discussing that capitalism is theft,
appropriation of value, etc.
I wasn't in on that.
Now, how did this play out at
the concert? There were about 18,000 tickets sold. Let's
conservatively say at an average price of $150, so there was
a
Charles Brown writes:
Sowell paints a picture of himself as having a rather shallow grasp of
Marxism, if the narrow experience he describes really changed his mind. I'm
pretty sure that there is no principle in Marxism that says that capitalists
won't lay people off in response to minimum
David B. Shemano wrote:
How would it work in PEN-Ltopia?
Simon Garfunkel would have been sent to the glue factory long ago.
Doug
As long as we understand each other.
Anybody who obscures the real source of poverty and immiseration and then argues that
better
is worse is a hack.
Don't know if that describes you personally.
-Original Message-
From: David B. Shemano [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Jul 2, 2004 1:19
In a message dated 7/2/2004 12:40:40 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
We were
just discussing that capitalism is theft, appropriation of value, etc.
Now, how did this play out at the concert? There were about 18,000
tickets sold. Let's conservatively say at an
Mr. Sartesian writes:
As long as we understand each other.
Anybody who obscures the real source of poverty and immiseration and then argues
that better
is worse is a hack.
Don't know if that describes you personally.
It probably does. Do you mind if I use it for my epitaph? Here
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/01/04 7:50 PM
I saw Hussein on TV this morn
Ken.
most significant feature of hussein's appearance in court was u.s. flag
in corner of room, media made big deal of u.s. military personnel
'retreating' after bringing him
in but i've not seen anyone allude even in passing to
Kerry: No licenses for illegal immigrants
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
By Nedra Pickler, salon.com
July 1, 2004 | Pittsburgh --
Democrat John Kerry said he opposes state laws that give driver's
licenses to illegal immigrants, a position that puts him at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/30/04 9:27 PM
Voting official seeks process for canceling Election Day over terrorism
Friday, June 25, 2004
BY ERICA WERNER
ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON - The government needs to establish guidelines for
canceling or rescheduling elections if terrorists strike the United
Be my guest, if you like it, if it fits, and it's how you want to be remembered.
Don't much care for epitaphs myself, although I wouldn't mind being remembered as a
skirt-chasing bastard.
-Original Message-
From: David B. Shemano [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Jul 2, 2004 3:31 PM
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/30/04 9:25 PM
That's nothing in comparison to Gore inspiring more than 200,000
registered Democrats in Florida to crossover and vote for George W. Bush
in the last election. The Democrats should not worry about the tiny
number of Democrats who vote for Nader. They should try
But what one earth has deciding that incentives rather than goals are more
important in determining the way the world works got anything to do with
rejecting Marxism or showing that there is something lacking in Marxism.?
Also, why is what Sowell notices inconsistent with considering goals to be
What Marxist would deny that incentives affect behavior? Didn't Old
Whiskers say somewhere that an 800% return would draw forth capital
from the moon?
Doug
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/30/04 10:44 PM
Dan Scanlan writes
As a longtime Green activist with both a long term view and a quick
knee I have got to disagree. Nader's campaigns for President have
been strategic for long term betterment.
Dan Scanlan
thanks for informative, well-reasoned comments...
here's Hal Varian from yesterday's (7/1/04's) NY TIMES:
The economics of the California gasoline market are described in a
recent study by Severin Borenstein, James Bushnell and Matthew Lewis of
the University of California Energy Institute (www.ucei.org/PDF
/csemwp132.pdf).
The basic problem
Sowell..I came to reject Marxism when I was studying affirmative action
programmes for black entrepreneurs.
Commentator: HOw is that??
Sowell..Well this black business owner benefitted from special loan rates
and other govt. incentives. However, he still had to pay a minimum wage. He
complained
Who is Old Whiskers? I thought it was Uncle Whiskers. I've always
suspected that Doug was a revisionist.
At 04:50 PM 7/2/2004 -0400, you wrote:
What Marxist would deny that incentives affect behavior? Didn't Old
Whiskers say somewhere that an 800% return would draw forth capital
from the moon?
Regarding Sowell's transformation, the problem here is one of email communication
confusion and I have contributed. In the Salon interview, the question to Sowell was
So you were a Lefty once. Sowell responded Through the decade of my 20s, I was a
Marxist. The interviewer then asked What
I really thank you for this piece, David.
It was more articulate than that which had come in quotes before.
But Mr Sowell does still seem quite... you know... stupid.
You actually quote this:
Liberals tend to describe what they want in terms of
goals rather than processes, and not to be overly
David, I mentioned before that Card and Krueger found just the opposite: that
journals would not consider articles that suggested that min. wage laws do not cause
unemployment.
On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 11:23:44AM -0700, David B. Shemano wrote:
Charles Brown writes:
Sowell paints a picture of
In a message dated 7/2/2004 5:22:00 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Traditional justice, at least in the American tradition, involves
treating people the same, holding them to the same standards and having them
play by the same rules. Cosmic justice tries to make
Prof. Devine writes:
The hired folks (the crew, etc.) probably produced more value than they received in
wages, so Marxian exploitation was going on: surplus-value was likely produced
(though I don't know the details of the case). SG are super-star members of the
working class, so they
THIS WE MUST PARSE...
-Original Message-
From: David B. Shemano [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Jul 2, 2004 6:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Sowell
Traditional justice, at least in the American tradition, involves treating people the
same, holding them to the same standards
David the troller writes:
Humor me on this. I need some Marx 101. Let's imagine the
crew does all their work. They set up the special sound and
light systems, etc. However, Simon and Garfunkel get into a
fight and refuse to perform, so the show is cancelled and all
ticket are refunded. The
Please, no personal attacks. If David were a troller, he could have been very
disruptive here. He has not been.
I suspect that the thread has exhausted itself.
On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 07:12:22PM -0400, Kenneth Campbell wrote:
David the troller writes:
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
Michael writes:
Please, no personal attacks. If David were a troller, he
could have been very disruptive here. He has not been.
I honestly did not write David the troller in a negative way.
Honestly! I thought he was just here to be the straw that stirs the
drink that we all prefer.
I think
Melvin P. writes:
On affirmative action he would be run out of the podium and forced to understand the real meaning of traditional American justice. The poor would most certainly string him up and I would not object.
As Godwin's Law approaches, I am done with the thread.
David
I am not an expert, but I would think that the decision of Shell to shut
down the Bakersfield refinery sounds quite similar to what our friends
at Enron did during the energy crisis here. Over to Gene Coyle now.
Devine, James wrote:
here's Hal Varian from yesterday's (7/1/04's) NY TIMES:
The
Title: Re: the Democratic Leadership Council wing
of the Gre
Michael Hoover writes...
however, color me a cynic as i've a
hunch that the sum of the parts that
you describe add up to less than
suggested...
green party will experience 'growing pains' if it is to have
substantive
longevity
Kenneth Campbell writes:
Don't be silly. You are supposedly a lawyer.
The refusal to perform negated the contract. But not the contractual
duties owed to those expected to aid in the performance.
The pathetic spat between the actual performers (in your little
hypothetical) does not negate
David the non-trolled writes:
You misunderstand my questions. I am not asking
whether the crew should be paid. I am trying to
understand the labor theory of value/surplus
value/exploitation in context.
I don't think I misunderstand your question. I was talking about the
value of the crew.
In a message dated 7/2/2004 5:54:30 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Let's
imagine the crew does all their work. They set up the special sound and
light systems, etc. However, Simon and Garfunkel get into a fight and
refuse to perform, so the show is cancelled
Kenneth Campbell writes:
I don't think I misunderstand your question. I was talking about the
value of the crew.
But please inform me of my errors, I am open to instruction, at any age.
The labor/value thing is larger than micro economy, no? When you squish
it into some smaller question,
In a message dated 7/2/2004 6:42:37 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As Godwin's Law approaches, I am done with the thread.
David Shemano
Comment
I understand . . . but there are times I speak as an
insurgent partisan. I would debate Mr. Sowell in front of
David wrote:
I am a reductionist, as some of you may
remember from a previous exchange. Therefore, I insist on
narrowing issues to their most basic.
You write: I insist on narrowing issues to their most basic.
I do, too, sir.
Survival. Ability to raise kids. Dignity.
My dad was working class
I'll eat Mr. Sowell alive and my brother would bury him for
sure.
Peace
Melvin
__
Cue the brother:
Brother Melvin puts somefire to the feet of
theideological tapdancers of capital, and the dancershead
towards the emergency exits, protesting the harsh language.
Borenstein and Bushnell still insist that the market works for electric
power! Everything, for them, comes down to supply and demand.
Remarkably, in 2004 (below) they seem to have discovered that
withholding capacity can prop up high gasoline prices. This is a real
breakthrough for the UC
Licencias y Legalizacion para Todos (regarding Kerry, Camejo,
Immigrants on the driver's license question):
http://montages.blogspot.com/2004/07/licencias-y-legalizacion-para-todos.html
--
Yoshie
* Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/
* Bring Them Home Now!
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