G'day Pen-pals,
Was it here someone was asking about micro-readings? If so, have you seen
Louis Putterman's *The Economic Nature of the Firm: A Reader* (1993, CUP) -
all the biggies - from Smith, Marx, Hayek, Coase, Chandler, Simon,
Liebenstein, Jensen etc etc - and a very useful piece by
Evening all,
If Greenspan were a horse (and you chose to race him rather than consign him
to the knacker's yard), would you not see in the formguide years of attempts
to regulate those animal spirits out there through hints and empty warnings?
A deliberate leakage is my bet here. And one with
G'day Tom,
You write:
I thought you were agreeing with Kindleberger, who thinks that the world
needs fiat currencies to prevent stagnation, consequently, the lack of a
"world hegemon" exacerbated the Great Depression. But you do not agree
with Kindleberger, since such a "world hegemon" only
Title: Re: [PEN-L:17522] Re: Keeping Tabb
G'day Doyle,
You tax Max thus:
>>More schizophrenia here, I think.
>The phrase is anti-disabled. ÝYou know (I assume you are ignorant of the movement, the phrase "you know" is just a >writing tic) this country had a disability rights movement spring
G'day Carrol,
Yes. I believe some other poster tried to confuse issues by
claiming that when originally coined the word was intended
to mean "split mind," but the claim is pointless. There is no
significant sense in which schizophrenia is characterized
by a "split mind," and the use of the term
Good on yez, Barnett Max! Ta.
Rob.
This issue is discussed in detail in "Beware the U.S. Model."
an EPI book (http://epinet.org)
Authors are Mishel, Schmitt and Bernstein.
mbs
Rob Schaap wrote:
And, btw, (following Joel Blau's post of the other day), is there a table
of
G'day all,
Just by the way ...
.i don't know if you can find "Arkadas" (Friendship)
specifically, since I had seen it back to turkey many moons ago.
There are apparently a couple of words for 'friend' in Turkish, and I'm
given to believe 'arkadas' is the one closest to 'comrade' (with
G'day Mine - and all you IPEs,
This reading and other considerations make me hope that April 16thers
will also direct their attention to the panoply of forces to which the
WB/IMF are themselves subject:
Just wondering - Do we still speak of the Bilderbergers and Trilateral
Commission in
But seriously folks, DO we still speak of the Bilderbergers/Trilateral
Commission as either symbolic of, or central to, the role of
trans-national, trans-sectoral integrated first-world elites in shaping the
international political economy? There was a flurry of such talk a few
years back (Cox,
G'day Ted and Justin,
Well, I've seen quite a few football mobs in my time, and, whilst a large
skinhead or 'bovver-boy' contingent was ever present, the violent mob
mentality was (a) not inevitable (it only took hold sometimes, albeit
predictably so if traditional rivals were avisiting - eg
G'day Mine,
as Marx said in the Communist Manifesto, working classes should
"settle accounts with their own bourgeoisie first". Evidence is Soviet
and Chinese communism, and other anti-imperialist struggles around
the globe.
That's old evidence, Mine. How'd you reckon a working class
G'day Chas,
What is the difference between a strategy of anti-imperialism and a
strategy of international solidarity against capitalism. International
capitalism is imperialism.
Perhaps Rod means that 'globalism' should (on a Marxist account) be
globalising and thus on its way to standardising
G'day Pen-Pals,
The Margin Call - a sound never heard by ordinary punters in Australia
before - is booming across the land. The market here is down 6 per cent for
the morning, and there's no sign of serious bottom-feeding yet. Of course,
you have to remember that NewsCorp is a whopping
G'day Michael,
Whilst I am wholly aware of JMK's insistence that a fight between the
bourgeoisie and the great unwashed would find him firmly on the side of the
former, I still think there's room for a generous reading of all this. It
seems, for instance, wholly consistent with the writings of,
G'day Mike Louis,
Sez Louis:
It depends. If you narrowed the search to posts by Jim Devine, you'd find
them extremely relevant. The problem is that very few people with his kinds
of expertise feel motivated apparently to write analyses on PEN-L. Whether
this is because of time constraints or
G'day all,
About this Civil War business (a topic the judicious foreigner should leave
well alone, I know). Ain't it true that the War is remembered by only the
northerners as a war about slavery? I'm not even sure most *at the time*
had it down as a war about slavery. Anyway, why a
G'day all,
Whilst I reckon there's something to Mark's words (below), the fact is they
don't really matter like they used to. You can't beat the US strategic
might, so you have to beat their resolve (which just about any long war
would do, as long as it weren't important enough to tempt Unca
Hi again,
Sez Jim:
Yes, baseball is like craft-based capitalism;
So how's cricket different? That's the reference point in this daft
proposition, isn't it? Anyway, it might be true that the US and Japan play
baseball. But the Cubans love it, too, don't they? What's the conclusion
these
But, Mine! Isn't football (the real one - ie. the one they play with their
feet) the sport most played by the world's girls and women? And you'd be
living in a strange place indeed if an awful lot of the women weren't just
a tad interested in the men's game, too, I reckon. Women can be as
Please find attached one manly cyber-hug, Justin! Well-spoken, comrade!
If, as Frost said, 'poetry is what gets left out in translation' (though
I'm convinced Dryden managed to keep plenty of Chaucer in), 'tis even the
translation that's left out in the postie critique, where the heroic
couplet
G'day Mine,
Two men expressing affection in a homophobic world may do so by hugging
each other, but only if they bring their forearms hard against each others'
backs, preferably bruising some ribs, and then, for but a moment, making
sure to hug hard enough to induce pain. This is a very
G'day Charles,
You say "Materialist dialectics was Engels' , and not Marx's."
I rteckon we have to be very explicit and specific here.
I thought, for instance, that you and I had come to agree that materialism
is not the same as physicalism? Social
*relations* are material for Marx, and,
And hello again, Charles.
CB: This is a problem for you because of your utopianism. Marx predicted
that the Paris Commune would be a folly
of dispair, but also knew that it was the beginning of actual socialism,
with all its faults, and advanced his theory of
socialism based on it. Similarly
Allows our Carrol:
I'm not saying that Sam Pawlett really wants to keep women in the nursery.
No, and neither should you even dare make mention of it. Just like you're
in no position to question people's trustworthiness; to demand they prove
themselves to, well, you; and to accuse
Beaut post, Reverend Tom! What's that Kuznets reference, btw?
Cheers,
Rob.
The automobile and the elevator were also great inventions. Idealizing
them led to monstrosities like the le Corbusier plan for Paris, urban
renewal, Pruitt-Igoe etc.
I would expect that, consistent with his
G'day Penners,
I see in yesterday's *Australian* that personal debt has quickly risen to
$65 billion - averaging out at $3600 per Ozzie, and blowing our balance of
payments out to hell. And it's nearly all done on credit cards, mostly at
better than 16%pa.
Of course, our smug (and no-one on
Kubrick has died. I recently saw "Lolita" and "Paths of Glory" for
the first time. Both were excellent, though I think "Paths of Glory"
provokes a sharper response, drawing the angry bile upward as quickly
as any movie I've seen.
Never mind Kubrick. Films are all very well, but they're not
G'day Mike,
Reckon the B2 Stealth Bombers just need a coupla trial runs before the bulk
order gets signed.
And the unknown seems so big a part of this (and so many of the known bits
seem so redolent of cataclysmic mistakes past) that it absolutely must
qualify as stupid.
Sad, too.
Rob.
Is
G'day Mike,
Whilst I agree this Yugoslav business constitutes an obscenely
irresponsible risk in light of Russia's troubles and proclivities (amongst
those of several significant others), I'm not sure about this bit:
Moscow will immediately supply powerful armaments to Belgrade and the
Serbs
G'day all,
Two thoughts:
(1) I reproduce three very short articles from *The Australian* public web
site below - is this the sort of thing we should be trying to avoid on
PEN-L? That'd be daft, imho, (all fully attributed, and from a publicly
accessible page, too) but I'll happily oblige
G'day Max,
Starting a process that almost inevitably gets to this stage, is a stupidity
of logical priority. After all, if they're gonna keep bombing, the
definition of 'military targets' is gonna have to get an awful lot broader
Cheers,
Rob.
--
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Max
What about the devil-may-care bravado with which he installed that cigar?
Raw courage in my book.
Our world is so hopelessly distorted, I suspect it's the one thing this *!#
bastard is gonna be remebered for - long after all the dead are nameless
dust.
But, yeah, point taken.
Rob.
I defy
Did I hear General Clarke right? He says the pilot who attacked the train
bridge 'intently' looked at his monitor, and noticed the train on the
bridge only at the last second, when it was no longer possible to divert or
abort.
The bit where I spill my morning cuppa follows: the 'same thing'
Tom writes of Abram Bergson, about whom I know nothing but that he
corresponded with von Mises, concerning whom I am in the far better position
of knowing very little, which is enough for a list so merciful to its
well-meaning ignoramuses as Pen-L ...
I get intigued where von Mises dares argue
The good reverend waxes beauteously, and then qualifies thusly:
Please don't puke at this maudlin idyll, Max,
Maudlin idyll! Puke?
Perhaps I'm being overly daring revealing this, but this maudlin idyll
constitutes the basis of all my politics!
Doesn't it constitute yours, Tom?
Rob.
G'day all,
Where in this world does one look, if not for comfort, at least for the
possibility of it?
India's just knocked off its fifth government in three years, its stock
market is in free fall, its 20 million public servants are on the streets,
its sabres are rattling nervously in all
G'day Robert,
It was reported yesterday by the Beeb World Service. Several ministers were
pointing at the WTO bananas determination and criticising it roundly - in
politically circumspect, but pleasantly familiar, terms (not a million miles
from the 'dependencia' insights of yore) - I very much
People have forgotten Joannah B. already.
Shows how powerful spin can be, eh? A perfectly credible witness
convincingly details a rape (in every sense and to the full extent of the
word - more so than the other cases I can remember), and not even her
liberal feminist sisters get behind her.
I don't understand the details here (other tha that US-owned TNCs prevail
over paternalistic gestures towards erstwhile colonies as a matter of
course), but isn't this WTO judgement to the effect that the US may now
impose tariffs against Euro-imports to the tune of the estimated amount
G'day Nathan,
Always enjoy your posts, mate - even if I seem to be disagreeing with you a
lot of late. Your speculations concerning South Africa make a point, but
allow me to speculate to try to make one in return.
We're up against murderous nationalism here - on the part of Serbian forces
I think I should make clear that (a) 'a couple of years of economic
suffering and the dramatic dissolution of old identities' don't necessarily
turn us into thugs - just that they can - and (b) I'm not saying that this
is what Russia's people have become (just that it might do so anywhere as
My heart (and much of what passes for my brain) is with Paul's take on
this, but Max always serves a necessary purpose for me on these lists, in
that he reminds me that even a fairly coherent set of default settings is
not the best apparatus with which to read my world.
When Paul assures Max he
G'day all,
A twenty-minute surf through the PeaceNet pages and some relevant book
blurbs offer these insights on the West's role in creating the Yugoslav
nightmare.
We may have an episode now that makes NATO's unprecedented unilateral
invasion cause for mixed feelings, but if you look at the
Hi again, Penners,
And good on you, Tom!
'Mad Dow' ...
Heh, heh, heh ...
'Prosthesis' ...
HA, HA, HA!!
How accurate would my suspicion be that an index does not a reality
represent? Mike tells us the NASDAQ is but ten winners and a few thousand
losers. I remember some news after Xmas that
G'day Brad, Tom Jim,
Jim writes:
One thing is that Japan is highly dependent on imports of raw materials, so
that a high Yen makes them cheaper.
This counteracts the effect of exports becoming more expensive in dollar
terms as the Yen rises.
Does Oz a bit of good, too - as we are a salient
G'day Justin,
Or any sort of philosopher. But he was analytical, among his other virtues.
Awright, comrade. You've said this twice now, so I'll chance a nibble.
Why was Marx not any sort of philosopher? Why, for instance, should *A
Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right*
G'day, Michael,
Sez you:
Wow! Summers has discovered Schumpeter!
Geez, I'd love to know where Schumpeter says that stuff about monopoly
rents being requisite for investment! I'd missed that in my
vulture-pecking of the great man's corpus, and it'd fit some stuff I'm
writing on
Glad it was only a major theme - else I'd be a bit embarrassed at missing
it ...
Glowing redly,
Rob.
It is a major theme of his Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy.
Rob Schaap wrote:
G'day, Michael,
Sez you:
Wow! Summers has discovered Schumpeter!
Geez, I'd love to know where
Doug writes:
Didn't Joan Robinson say that the only thing worse than being exploited
under capitalism is not being exploited?
Your mate Manuel Castells seems to say this, too. Without having much to
say for or against the Marxian argument for the category of exploitation,
he merely pronounces
G'day Barkley,
You write:
Social forces are obviously important, but would
World War II in Europe happened if Adolf Hitler had died
in World War I?
Keynes hadn't heard of Hitler when he forecast big trouble as a consequence
of Versailles' impact on German socio-economic prospects - not a
Geez you can give value for 2k, Doug! Right on the button, for mine, on
both counts - in Oz as it is in US.
As far as dangers go, this is pretty far down on the list in 1999. And any
U.S. radical has to take a critique of petit bourgeois (no quotes for me,
thank you) influence seriously - e.g.
G'day Tom,
I once read a piece by Simmel called something like 'How is society
possible?', and remember being very impressed - there wouldn't happen to be
a cyber-site for the below piece, would there? I think I'm going through a
dead-white-guys thing just now and the below is quite
My internet service provider thanks you for putting me on to your site, Rod.
I'm off back to it now.
Top quote the stoic Oates, I may be some time, chaps ...
Rob.
G'day Paul,
I got a lot out of
Carnoy, Castells, Cohen and Cardoso (1996) *The New Global Economy in the
Information Age*. Penn. State
and this introductory classic (in case it doesn't rate as a classic over
there)
Hettne, Bjorn (ed) (1995). *International Political Economy: understanding
G'day Jim,
I'd written:
Historical dialectics and an invocation of central planning - all from the
pen of a seminal econometrician. Strange stuff, economics ...
and you responded:
Schumpeter was neither an econometrician nor a mathematical economist. He
_was_ a conservative but open-minded
Hi again, Jim,
BTW2, I don't see my goal as a socialist to promote "state ownership of the
means of production" (Barkley's definition of socialism) unless it also
involves popular-democratic control of the state. In fact, I would
emphasize the latter over the former: state control of the means
May 21 -- State media say NATO bombs a Kosovo jail, killing at
least 19 people and injuring scores.
May 22 -- BBC say NATO bombs same jail again, twice.
Rob.
G'day Penners,
Chas writes:
It would be difficult to prove which culture and tradition definitely has
the best practice regarding living and using the earth in North America
and elsewhere in the long run of the future. But overall, in the historical
larger picture, the
methods of the
G'day Barkley,
You write:
The Gang That Can't Bomb Straight has not only
hit the Swedish embassy, but also the residences of
the Norwegian and Spanish ambassadors (NATO
members vigorously supporting the war effort, last time
I checked). They also hit a hospital, ugh, but not the
Swiss
G'day Seth,
Perhaps you don't define 'creative destruction' quite as Schumpeter might
have liked (I think Doug O's sadly unremarked-upon post of last week on
innovation and value takes it more literally), but I take your point with
gusto. Which reminds me of this delightful Schumpeterism
G'day all,
The Italians have broken NATO ranks by agreeing with everybody in the world
except about a dozen NATO spokespeople that the bombing doesn't seem to have
worked as NATO had (said they'd) expected it to. The Greeks go further -
stop the bombing long enough to give diplomacy another
G'day Henry,
Might the 'irrational euphoria' discerned by Camdessus not be a bit of
hedging - y'know, money trickling out of Wall St in anticipation of hikes
and such? Mebbe Asia's stock markets are slowly taking on the countenance
of relative safety for money that can still not find options as
In reply to Ken and Brad ...
As at 23 March, it was, I think, importantly true that the KLA was not
Albanian Kosovo and the Kosovar Serb militias were not mainstream Serbia. I
dunno if anyone saw that Drenica Valley doco, but all the killing of
Albanians in that seemed locals upon locals (with
Just thought I'd clarify:
I meant the issue has been dressed up as two 'opposites' neither of which we
need necessarily embrace - but if we don't embrace 'em, our discourse isn't
in the frame - the frame constituted for economic debate today is one of
Hayekian freedom plus price as optimal
G'day Michael,
I know I shouldn't say things so many of us have said before, but your
reference to 'reasonable' others and 'postmodern' wars forces my hand.
The only post-modern thing about what's happening in Yugoslavia is that its
purported representations don't represent it. Of course, I'd
A little economics to balance my whinging moralism. Ohmae agrees with a
lot this list was agreeing about a year and a half ago (which makes him an
absolute seer by the standards of most finance press columnists). In this
weekend's *Australian Financial Review*) he stuns his Rolexed readers (but
G'day Doug,
Now wait a minute. The actual "postmodernists" I know - and as usual that
word is being used without any reference to actual people or texts - are
mostly opposed to this war.
Well, be fair. I've been pretty specific about names and texts in other
matters pomo (and I did give
G'day Ajit,
What's her problem? Doesn't she understand Foucault?
Cheers, ajit sinha
Maybe just not his single most important argument, eh?
Actually, I'm not sure I understand it either, but I know when I see
someone who understands it less.
And hack into him as I do, Michel was not an
Greenspan's blather about tight 'labour markets' and inflation (and
interest rate hikes in June) has scared the guts out of the Oz markets
today. I'd take a couple of mill. out in cash if I were you lot - first
thing.
Methinks the bloke is experimenting with the idea of gently pricking a
bubble
Thanks to Doug Ohmans for his idea of substituting Marx's notion of 'average
constant capital' with that of 'marginal constant capital'. A terrific read
as I try to square the apparent profit engine that is information with the
law of value.
Does information proffer 'gratuitous service' such as
I'd written:
Methinks the bloke is experimenting with the idea of gently pricking a
bubble ...
and Doug replied:
Yeah, he tried that about 6,000 Dow points ago, with his tortured
"irrational exuberance" remark.* Didn't work very well, did it?
*AG, 12/5/96: "Clearly, sustained low
G'day Michael,
I used the term postmodernism to reflect the wierd sort of splitting up
of broad political groupings in unexpected ways.
Yeah, you did - but I'm not sure it's that weird in a world where PR so
deeply penetrates public communications (you have be time-rich or
professionally
Mine,
The monarchy had already been overthrown by
December 1917. The Duma Lenin shut down was
not "under the patronage of the monarchy." The
electoral winners, were socialists and revolutionary
ones. Just a different brand than Lenin's Bolsheviks.
Marx praised the direct election of
Nice post, Rod! And I tend to side with Barkley on the SR Constituent
Assembly, too - which seems to me to have been a more promising midwife for
the sort of transformations you discuss (especially in light of the
resolutions they were passing in their last days) than the dictatorship of
a
t, we have here the possibility of prostitution
presenting some with a career choice that is tenable/optimal from both
economically rationalist and politically socialist points of view.
Cheers,
Rob.
****
Rob Schaap
if this is a load of bollocks.
Cheers,
Rob.
********
Rob Schaap, Lecturer in Communication, University of Canberra, Australia.
Phone: 02-6201 2
. Westerners train locals accordingly.
9. G8 nations, especially selfish ol' Japan, offer open markets and at
least growth maintenance.
Well, waddya reckon?
Cheers,
Rob.
Rob Schaap, Lecturer in Communication, University of Canberra
.
Rob Schaap, Lecturer in Communication, University of Canberra, Australia.
Phone: 02-6201 2194 (BH)
Fax:02-6201 5119
'It is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet
and start thinking of new ways to characterise
our problems and our options. Plenty of the canon still there, but with
new modes of exploitation and new dynamics upon which to apply the logic.
Waddya reckon?
Cheers,
Rob
Rob
, so is capitalism's historical trajectory beyond the
control of the capitalist.
I better stop - I'm losing my grip.
Cheers,
Rob.
Rob Schaap, Lecturer in Communication, University of Canberra, Australia.
Phone: 02-6201
history in academic
economics?) inextricably links the two (for however one might wish to link
them, linked they most certainly must be)?
Just wondering,
Rob.
********
Rob Schaap, Lecturer in Communication, University of Canberra, Austral
rks
better for you.
Housebound mums?
Cheers, Rob.
****
Rob Schaap, Lecturer in Communication, University of Canberra, Australia.
Phone: 02-6201 2194 (BH)
Fax:02
this strange institution ostensibly and
incongruously advocates - equally stand accused of making bad contracts)?
Cheers,
Rob.
Rob Schaap, Lecturer in Communication, University of Canberra, Australia.
Phone: 02-6201 2194 (BH
G'day Penners,
Having already blathered on about the politics of comparing 'efficiencies'
on the wharf, I find myself in need of some data. Not much - but the same
sort of thing.
A study has just been promulgated in Oz which shows that our
part-publicly-owned Telco charges more for its calls
G'day Penners,
Believe it or not, Oz is actually an interesting place to be just now.
Some things remain the same (whilst most people you meet are far from
openly racist, the political culture of the place still oppresses
Aboriginees much more than occurs in Canada or the US) and some things are
G'day Penners,
At 11.00pm on Tuesday night, Patrick Stevedores sacked all its workers
around Australia. All were unionists (members of the strong and relatively
militant MUA) and all were sacked because they were unionists. Most were
not out on strike, were working well up to the productivity
G'day Max,
One thing I'm hearing more about from
my dear friends at the Heritage Foundation is the
great experiment in privatization of social
insurance in Australia enacted by your blessed
social democrats. Wonder if you'd care to
elaborate on this.
I do not bless our socdems. I just don't
G'day Penners,
With reference to Oz, Max writes:
I was talking about the privatization of the
financing of benefits in terms of the use of
individual accounts, government purchase of
corporate stock, or whatever.
I know nothing about this, Max! Are you talking about something that's
allegedly
G'day Penners,
For those of you interested in Australia's travails re. native title,
here's a little crash course. It's a lot more than you'll want, but it's
too complex to be done in three or four k, and, anyway, I needed to explain
it to myself. Please delete now if interest is marginal.
In
G'day all,
I've a bucket-load of work to do so I shall have to pull my head in for a
few days.
Here's the latest from the docks.
I think I mentioned yesterday that the union had allowed tug boats to dock
a government line vessel. It was duly unloaded. But MUA leader Coombs
swore the goodies
Hello again all,
Some extremely superficial speculations re Boddhi's impressively erudite
observations:
I'm thinking a strong yen requires one or both of two manouevres, make the
Yen attractive via higher interest rates and/or get the BoJ to buy more
Yen. The former immediately restrains
Just a quickie
I've just been listening to IR Minister Peter Reith. There's a new tone in
his voice. This operation is not coming off quite as he might have hoped.
One government line ship, apparently originally diverted to a Patrick dock
by the government, has now been rediverted, probably
Dear all,
Justice Wilcox is intoning the findings of the full bench of the federal
court as I write. Justice Tony North's famous findings of Tuesday remain
in place - ie. 'tightly structured and compelling' and 'free from
appellable error'.
North's injunction requiring that MUA wharfies be
Bill Rosenberg suggests 'productivity' figures may work for, rather than
against Ozzie wharfies. Too true! A new report out yesterday (I think
they're calling it the Drury Report or some such) points out that a
decisive variable in Oz productivity stats is the fact that most ships
unloaded here
G'day Penners,
Australia is following NZ into a black hole of across-the-board
privatisation. We've just flogged 1/3 of our erstwhile public monopoly
telco ('Telstra') and we're about to chuck the other 2/3 after it.
One thing this is doing (and this was very much part of Thatcher's agenda
G'day Penners,
First, Jim, yeah, I was being a bit narrowly monetarist. But wouldn't tax
cuts or cash injections counteract the upward pressure of consequent
government deficits on interest rates? More cash in circulation - less
demand for credit - lower interest rates? Or doesn't the
G'day all,
Another outrageous turn of events.
Now that the MUA wharfies have been sacked, you'd think they'd qualify for
the dole, wouldn't you?
Wrong.
The MUA, you'll remember sought and got an injunction against the sackings.
Patrick had avoided getting into trouble vis the Unfair
G'day Max,
Apparently, Australia has a means-tested basic
retirement benefit and a "privately managed
superannuation system," which I take to be
individual savings accounts of some type
subject to and/or resulting from government
regulation.
Oh, yeah. We do have that. My super resides with
G'day Penners,
No intention to bombard your mailboxes with press articles, but a couple of
quickies - (a) to update the wharfies' dispute (not good), and (b) to
contextualise by way of electoral climate (could be worse - and note the
government's attempts to save the private health insurance
Non-union wharfies' 'historic moment'
From AAP
12apr98
THE unloading of an Australian-crewed ship by non-union wharfies in
Sydney's Botany Bay today was a "decisive and historic moment", federal
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