One issue that has be
intimated but not stated explicitly, I think, is that the students are acting
lawlessly. Is that the message that we want to send our children and other
students? That it's OK when you have conscientious beliefs to violate laws and
societal norms just because you think
I am wondering whether the concern with majorities v. minorities is
precise enough to capture what is going on here. On the one hand,
graduation speeches about about who we are. They are, almost by
definition, inclusive. On the other hand, who we are is contestable. A
good deal of politics,
: Tue 5/23/2006 10:14 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
I think that the denigration of Rick and his original post has gone a
bit overboard.
As I understand the facts (and I could be wrong), the students voted
on a graduation speaker
"This conflict isn't about "free speech" or even a 60-second prayer; it's about who gets to define what kind of nation we are." Charles HaynesFirst Amendment CenterI agree with this insight. I don't think this issue is about the majority of students bullying a classmate as some have suggested.
Rick Duncan wrote:
"This conflict isn't about "free speech"
or even a 60-second prayer; it's about who gets to define what kind of
nation we are."
Charles Haynes
First Amendment Center
I agree with this insight. I don't think this issue is about the
majority of students bullying a
With all due respect, the prayer was hardly private.
-Original Message-
From: Kurt Lash [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:14 PM
To: Law Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
I think that the denigration of Rick and his
So, can we expect this "protest" to become a tradition at this and other schools? And what will school officials do when muslim students decide to sing the call to prayer during the ceremony? Or when atheists decide they need to be heard? On what grounds will the school threaten to stifle any
why is this a story of liberty? the liberty of the majority to oppress the
minority?
by the way, Rick, was it the Protestant or the Catholic Lord's Prayer they
wanted to say.
Rick Duncan wrote:
Link(See
also link)
Excerpt from the second link):
High School
Yes! Let us not show regard and concern for those who do not think of Jesus as their savior or those who do not want church in their schools or those who think differently! Let freedom ring for the majority of right believers! Let us demonize and marginalize those who believe something else!
I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard is doing a great job there.But is it really a "loophole" for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own commencement? Could a federal court ever properly employ the EC to enjoin the entire senior class--students
Some info from the involved ACLU affiliate isat this link:
http://www.aclu-ky.org/news.html#Grad%20Prayer
That info includes the following paragraph:
"School-sponsored prayer constitutes a symbolic
and tangible ‘preference… given by law’ to a religious sect by exalting it over
contrary
But, Rick, your first post seemed to depend on collapsing the distinction
that you're now insisting on. I gather the judge's order was
precisely against school-sponsored prayer. If that's right, then
you're right. The students weren't defying the court's order.
What they did was consistent with
I guess it is a "loophole" in the sense that if the students respected the spirit of the EC, they would be less likely to trip along the edges of it like this.There are good reasons for the EC and for the sharper separation of church and state. Keeping religious practices out of public
for
Law Academics
Subject: RE: Teenagers The
Spirit of Liberty
I enjoy the Religion Clause blog a great deal. Howard
is doing a great job there.
But is it really a loophole for students to engage in non-school sponsored prayer at their own
commencement? Could a federal court ever
Here is the way I look at it. "One poor kid" tried to censor his classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU.His classmates did not like being silenced by the "poor kid." So they made a stand--not to ostracize the poor kid, but to stand up for their liberty of religious
For purposes of constitutional analysis, we're focused on the wrong actors. I
agree with Steve and Andy that the students' grotesquely insensitive conduct
violated moral and social norms, not legal constraints. But I don't think we
should be so quick to assume that the prayer was not de
Rick Duncan wrote:
Here is the way I look at it. One poor kid tried to censor his
classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU.
His classmates did not like being silenced by the poor kid. So they
made a stand--not to ostracize the poor kid, but to stand up for their
liberty
19 -0700From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduSubject: Re: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty
Here is the way I look at it. "One poor kid" tried to censor his classmates with the help of a powerful legal ally, the ACLU.
His classmates did not like being silenced by the &q
732 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Rick DuncanSent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:19 PMTo: Law Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: RE: Teenagers The Spirit of Liberty I enjoy the Religion C
In a message dated 5/23/2006 4:32:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
While it may be "their" commencement, it is also the commencement of all of
the other students and their families present. Should everyone be
allowed to interrupt the service and impose their
I'm sure there are a few in the nation, but I have yet to find the public high school that does not have a baccalaureate service. One might wonder why that special service did not meet the needs of the students for public prayer, and if the affected high school did have such a service, one wonders
Unfortunately, those who favor and embrace the tyranny of the majoirty
(like Rick) never think about what it would be like to be the minority;
rather they glory in the ability to oppress those who are not ike them.
It is as old story in America.
Paul Finkelman
Ed Brayton wrote:
Rick Duncan
I see from earlier news stories that the student first asked the principal to not schedule prayers at the graduation, and the principal refused. The prayers objected to originally were clearly out of line under current case law. School authorities shouldn't be in the business of telling kids when
I think that the denigration of Rick and his original post has gone a
bit overboard.
As I understand the facts (and I could be wrong), the students voted
on a graduation speaker and that speaker planned on including a prayer
as part of her speech. In an injunction based on a suit filed only
In a message dated 5/23/06 11:34:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
public schools are not the place and when in public school is not the time to engage in religious worship. Why is that so hard to understand?
That really is the nub, isn't it? But my impression is that there are many millions
On May 23, 2006, at 1:05 PM, Rick Duncan wrote:
The students who prayed were trying to assert their own right to be
equal members of the political community in the face of a court order
treating a student speaker's religious expression as unequal to
secular expression.
They aren't equal
26 matches
Mail list logo
