[biofuels-biz] EREN Network News -- 05/1/02
= EREN NETWORK NEWS -- May 1, 2002 A weekly newsletter from the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Network (EREN). http://www.eren.doe.gov/ = Featuring: *News and Events New State Initiatives and Laws to Boost Renewable Energy Utah Enacts Net Metering Legislation, Kentucky Starts Pilot Environmental Summit Yields Renewable Power Recommendations DOE Funds Research to Increase Geothermal Production DOE, BPA to Test Environmentally Friendly Turbines Zero-Energy House Featured in Atlanta and on National Mall Houston Group to Plan Ways to Fight Heat Island Effect *Energy Facts and Tips Is Nuclear Power Coming Back in the United States? *About this Newsletter -- NEWS AND EVENTS -- New State Initiatives and Laws to Boost Renewable Energy A proposed initiative in Michigan and new laws and regulations in Massachusetts and New Hampshire are likely to increase the production and use of renewable energy in each of the states. In Michigan, Governor John Engler announced in mid-April his NextEnergy economic development plan, which focuses on hydrogen-powered fuel cells but also encourages the establishment of other renewable energy industries in the state. The energy blueprint proposes a 700-acre, tax-free NextEnergyZone near Ann Arbor, including a state-of-the- art clearinghouse and information resource called the NextEnergy Center. With its proposals for a national certification and standards program, tax incentives and exemptions, microgrid demonstrations, and an international conference, the NextEnergy program could catalyze the development of renewable and fuel cell industries in the state. See the NextEnergy Web site, with links to the governor's announcement, at: http://www.nextenergy.org/default.htm. In Massachusetts, new regulations are in place for a statewide standard for production of electricity from renewable energy sources. The Massachusetts Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) specifies that retail suppliers of electricity must draw on new renewable energy projects to provide one percent of their power in 2003, increasing to four percent by 2009. However, electricity suppliers can avoid the requirement by purchasing credits from the Massachusetts Technology Park Corporation, which administers the state's Renewable Energy Trust. For 2003, the credits will cost $50 per megawatt-hour, or 5 cents per kilowatt-hour, which is likely to be higher than the incremental cost of new renewable power sources. The regulation is expected to take effect this month. See the RPS regulations on the Massachusetts Division of Energy Resources Web site at: http://www.state.ma.us/doer/rps/index.htm. New Hampshire is approaching power production from the opposite direction, through regulation of power-plant emissions. The state's new multiple pollutant reduction program is the first in the country to include carbon dioxide emissions. The program caps emissions at their current levels and establishes a system of emissions credits that can be traded among power generators. It also requires the state's Department of Environmental Services to establish an integrated strategy to reduce emissions, including the use of energy efficiency and renewable energy. The legislation anticipates lowering the carbon emissions cap in 2010. See the New Hampshire bill at: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2002/hb0284.html. Utah Enacts Net Metering Legislation, Kentucky Starts Pilot Utah and Kentucky have joined the ranks of states in which the state's utilities offer net metering to their customers. Net metering allows customers to install their own power generation systems and feed excess power back into the grid. Customers are billed only for their net electricity use over a month or a year -- ideally, their meter turns backwards when they are feeding power into the grid. Net metering is usually limited to clean power sources of a certain size. The Utah legislation, which takes effect next week, applies to renewable energy and fuel cell installations of not more than 25 kilowatts. See the Utah bill at: http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2002/htmdoc/hbillhtm/HB0007.htm. In Kentucky, net metering will be tested through pilot programs run by the Louisville Gas and Electric Company and the Kentucky Utilities Company. The three-year pilots will allow 25 customers of each utility to try net metering, with residential customers limited to 10-kilowatt systems and non-residential customers limited to 25-kilowatt systems. The pilot applies to wind, hydropower, and solar installations. The utilities will install sophisticated meters to examine whether the systems feed power to the grid
[biofuels-biz] Fwd: Crude Glycerine 80% min purtity
Anyone interested? If so, please respond direct to Mr Strassberg, not to the list or to me or to Journey to Forever. If you make megabucks out of it, an introduction fee might fit in our woefully emptyish kitty rather well. g Keith From: Edward Strassberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Crude Glycerine 80% min purtity Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:43:22 -0400 X-Priority: 3 Dear Export |Sirs, If you supply, please quote your compeitive cost for the above subject: Material: Palm or Tallow base Quanity per shipment; : 6,000 mt Regular shipments of same CIF: Busan or inchon Korean port Packing: Used drum is acceptable Thank you kindly and we look forward to working closely with you, Edward Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
Thanks Ro onya! - Original Message - From: Joe Giacomini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust Not yet I will try some more experiments in the future. I need a more controlled environment. I am using a non heated building where the control sample also displayed some separation. Sorry for the delayed response all the ranting and raving turned me off to wading through the emails. Mike Frieders wrote: Perhaps we could get back to the subject of bio-diesel. Someone was experimenting with electricity in seperating out the glycerin. Did you have any luck? What about temperature, will cold for example cause the glycerin to seperate out of solution? Does glycerin freeze before BD or the other way around? Steven-Lee Craig wrote: Harmon, Sounds like you have really studied. In fact if you know as much about religion as you say, I would say you are an expert on the subject. Too bad you didn't realize that study of religion is as a potent poison as one can ingest. After all, look what conclusion you came to. You dumped the only true purpose for an existence on this planet. Too much study of religion equals, No faith. No future. I listened to a guy the other day that told me he learned more from the Buddhists and Hindus than from any Christian teaching. I am sure of one thing, and that is that he will learn more at his death than he ever learned from the Buddhists, Hindus, or the Christians. But by then it will be too late to act on it!!! Steven-Lee Craig Radio Free Huron serving Huron county 24 hours a day at 100.1 FM WWW.RADIOFREEHURON.COM As a former christian, and fundamentalist at that, I have to say as far as I'm concerned, christianity is a deception. And as I pointed out before, I have a degree in religious studies with an emphasis in biblical literature, and before I went back to school had studied both the bible and church history intensively for years. I know for a fact that I know more about the bible and church history than *any* preacher I ever met -- and I know plenty. The church is directly to blame for a great many of our current problems, environmental, social, and political, and has been since it's inception when they ripped off the messiah of Israel and perverted it into something it was not. The Inquistion was official church policy, they torturing and burning of thousands upon thousands of women in Europe was official church policy. The genocide of Native Americans, the enslavement of Africans, was made a part of church doctrine. The current War On Some Drugs (which accounts for 75% of our prison population) is pure religious persecution brought about by the church. The epitome of christian political policy in Amerika today is the most evil man in Amerika today, John Asscruft -- just look at his face, listen to his voice, it's like Nazi Germany all over again. Nazism is something else I've studied pretty intensely, and is one of the reasons I find the current regime so frightening. Adolph Hitler once said: Those who think National Socialism is a polical party know nothing about it. It is a religion, and the SS are the high priests. Hitler himself was not a great intellect, nor had he much personal power, he was a medium, a puppet, for the masters behind him who groomed him, educated him, and set him in place. There are great parallels between him and that evil little retard, George W. Bush. Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.351 / Virus
[biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine
Kirk, My understanding of thermodynamics is not at a level that would allow me to independently evaluate the potential efficiency of an engine given its design and running characteristics. According to the following website, Melvin Vaux apparently improved Bourke's design and patented his own engine in the 1990's. Sounds interesting. http://www.constant-pressure.com/News.htm Eric Message: 7 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:05:11 -0600 From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine Eric, I read the 3 archives and what I previously said still stands. The thermal efficiency of a diesel far exceeds a stirling. The only time I would choose a stir;ing over a diesel is if my fuel were wood, coal, biomass or solar. None of those are useable in an internal combustion engine. Diesels run 15 to 25 to 1 compression. The ones 20 or higher get excellent economy. The Bourke was 50 to 1 and you could put your hand on the exhaust according to a pamphlet published by the Experimental Aircraft Assosciation. Kirk -Original Message- From: Eric Schaetzle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:55 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine Stirling engine's claim to fame? See the archived messages below. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=9970list=BIOFUEL http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=6853list=BIOFUEL http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=715list=BIOFUEL Eric Message: 9 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 10:22:07 -0600 From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine Thermal efficiency of a prime mover is a function of the delta T the engine operates over and is implemented in any engine using pressure change by a ratio of volume called compression ratio. That is why the diesel is the king and if the Bourke was available it would hold the crown. I think the stirling's claim to fame is solar or solid fuel. If you have a fuel that can be internally combusted efficiency says use a diesel. Kirk -Original Message- From: Manolo Rolan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 1:49 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine i'll keep thinking ... i'm trying to think on a solution on of a biodiesel processor off the grid perhaps using stirling engines an other technologies, just a personal challenge... just playing thanks Eric Manolo Rolan Valencia, Spain -Mensaje original- De: borealbliss [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviado el: viernes, 26 de abril de 2002 23:31 Para: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine hi all: making a bit of searching on google i've found some information on both technologies, and i've thought that they could be working together, anyone has try something on that way? thanks in advance Manolo Rolan Valencia, Spain It sounds inefficient- the energy produced by a Stirling engine run using a vortex tube would be less than the energy needed to compress the air to run the vortex tube in the first place. Wouldn't it? I suggest posting your message to one of these lists for a better answer: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sesusa/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HotAirEngineSociety/ Eric __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE Let me tip your balance a bit. When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet. Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy. Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a stream. TILT! Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] OPEC, Big Oil and you - 15
The Seven Sisters The Great Oil Companies and the World They Made Anthony Sampson Hodder and Stoughton, 1975, ISBN 0 340 19427 8 Chapter 14 - Part 1 The New Cartel It's taken OPEC fifteen years to put together an absolutely magnificent organisation that succeeded in getting world oil prices up by a factor of four in a month's time. They'd have to be utterly mad to do anything as stupid as go out and compete with each other to drive down the price of oil. -- Bob Dorsey, Chairman of Gulf Oil, July 1974 Sovereign Nations cannot allow their policies to be dictated, or their fate decided, by artificial rigging and distortion of world commodity prices. -- President Ford, September 1974 AFTER the embargo had been lifted by the middle of 1974, the consuming countries were having to face the apparently unalterable fact that the world's oil was now controlled by a cartel of sovereign states. Their attention was focussed on the headquarters of OPEC in Vienna, which had for so long been regarded as insignificant. No city in Europe evokes more poignantly the past glories of Western civilisation than Vienna. Along the wide ring-road that circumscribes the old city, the baroque and rococo palaces loom up on either side with a melancholy grandeur. Their high domes, their ceremonial entrances and broad stairways seem all to be waiting for the ghosts of earlier eras -- of Maria Theresa, of Metternich, of Haydn and Mozart. Driving round the ring road, past the baroque opera house and the tall gothic town hall, a single bleak modern block suddenly sticks out with a facade made of slabs of white lavatorial marble. Over the workaday entrance are the words TEXACO: for it houses among other people the Austrian headquarters of Texaco. But among the brass plates there is also one that announces: ORGANISATION OF PETROLEUM EXPORTING COUNTRIES (OPEC): 1st and 2nd Floors. There is nothing in the surroundings to suggest that this represents the headquarters of the biggest financial power in the history of the world. For most of the year there is nothing exciting about the offices. On the white walls small black-and-white photographs depict scenes from the member-countries: a view of a storage tank, seen through some bushes in Iraq; a gas-oil converter in Libya; a tanker off the dead-flat coast of Saudi Arabia. Down the corridors underfurnished offices contain statisticians, economists, and cosy British or Austrian secretaries. On the floor above sits the secretary general, who changes every two years. It is not a flamboyant position: for the two critical years, 1973 and 1974, when OPEC suddenly realised its full power, the Secretary was a quiet courteous Algerian, Dr. Abderrahman Khene, who looked like, as he once was, a doctor: patient, courteous, with a neat moustache and a waistcoat, he seemed not at all excited by the sudden new balance. He saw the change, as he put it to me, as one not towards power but towards reality. The West, he believes, should be able to face willingly the reduction in its standard of living, for the betterment of the third world. For years the meetings of OPEC had attracted scarcely more attention than other trade organisations -- only a handful of specialist journalists would attend. But after the sensational turnabout of 1973, the bleak offices became suddenly the object of intense curiosity for the rest of the world. The interest had reached a new peak by the time of the annual meeting in December 1974, a year after the sensational price-rise, when the price of oil was once again to be settled. Planes flew in from Caracas, Kuwait, or Djakarta. The four principal hotels in Vienna filled up with unpronounceable names from little known countries. At the Hotel Imperial opposite the Opera, where Wagner once stayed, an elegant yellow suite was prepared for Dr. Jamshid Amouzegar, from Iran. At the Hotel Intercontinental expectancy centred round room 1141 on the top floor, which was awaiting the arrival of Sheikh Zaki Yamani. Journalists flew in from the four corners; no longer now only the dedicated band of experts, from Platt's Oilgram, or Petroleum Intelligence Weekly, or the Middle East Economic Survey, but a whole pack of pundits and popularisers, grappling with the complexities of barrels and buy-back, equity and discount. Vienna was the centre of a curiosity that had never been accorded to Chancellor Kreisky or to the negotiations on Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions. For this curiosity affected every consumer in the industrialised world: what will be the new price of oil? And will the OPEC cartel hold together? On the first morning reporters and cameras are packed into the reception room, waiting for the visiting potentates. Abdul Rahman Atiqi, the Kuwaiti oil minister, strides in behind his Groucho moustache; he has command of three million barrels of oil a day -- a tenth of OPEC's production. Dr. Amouzegar follows, his
[biofuel] EREN Network News -- 05/1/02
= EREN NETWORK NEWS -- May 1, 2002 A weekly newsletter from the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Network (EREN). http://www.eren.doe.gov/ = Featuring: *News and Events New State Initiatives and Laws to Boost Renewable Energy Utah Enacts Net Metering Legislation, Kentucky Starts Pilot Environmental Summit Yields Renewable Power Recommendations DOE Funds Research to Increase Geothermal Production DOE, BPA to Test Environmentally Friendly Turbines Zero-Energy House Featured in Atlanta and on National Mall Houston Group to Plan Ways to Fight Heat Island Effect *Energy Facts and Tips Is Nuclear Power Coming Back in the United States? *About this Newsletter -- NEWS AND EVENTS -- New State Initiatives and Laws to Boost Renewable Energy A proposed initiative in Michigan and new laws and regulations in Massachusetts and New Hampshire are likely to increase the production and use of renewable energy in each of the states. In Michigan, Governor John Engler announced in mid-April his NextEnergy economic development plan, which focuses on hydrogen-powered fuel cells but also encourages the establishment of other renewable energy industries in the state. The energy blueprint proposes a 700-acre, tax-free NextEnergyZone near Ann Arbor, including a state-of-the- art clearinghouse and information resource called the NextEnergy Center. With its proposals for a national certification and standards program, tax incentives and exemptions, microgrid demonstrations, and an international conference, the NextEnergy program could catalyze the development of renewable and fuel cell industries in the state. See the NextEnergy Web site, with links to the governor's announcement, at: http://www.nextenergy.org/default.htm. In Massachusetts, new regulations are in place for a statewide standard for production of electricity from renewable energy sources. The Massachusetts Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) specifies that retail suppliers of electricity must draw on new renewable energy projects to provide one percent of their power in 2003, increasing to four percent by 2009. However, electricity suppliers can avoid the requirement by purchasing credits from the Massachusetts Technology Park Corporation, which administers the state's Renewable Energy Trust. For 2003, the credits will cost $50 per megawatt-hour, or 5 cents per kilowatt-hour, which is likely to be higher than the incremental cost of new renewable power sources. The regulation is expected to take effect this month. See the RPS regulations on the Massachusetts Division of Energy Resources Web site at: http://www.state.ma.us/doer/rps/index.htm. New Hampshire is approaching power production from the opposite direction, through regulation of power-plant emissions. The state's new multiple pollutant reduction program is the first in the country to include carbon dioxide emissions. The program caps emissions at their current levels and establishes a system of emissions credits that can be traded among power generators. It also requires the state's Department of Environmental Services to establish an integrated strategy to reduce emissions, including the use of energy efficiency and renewable energy. The legislation anticipates lowering the carbon emissions cap in 2010. See the New Hampshire bill at: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2002/hb0284.html. Utah Enacts Net Metering Legislation, Kentucky Starts Pilot Utah and Kentucky have joined the ranks of states in which the state's utilities offer net metering to their customers. Net metering allows customers to install their own power generation systems and feed excess power back into the grid. Customers are billed only for their net electricity use over a month or a year -- ideally, their meter turns backwards when they are feeding power into the grid. Net metering is usually limited to clean power sources of a certain size. The Utah legislation, which takes effect next week, applies to renewable energy and fuel cell installations of not more than 25 kilowatts. See the Utah bill at: http://www.le.state.ut.us/~2002/htmdoc/hbillhtm/HB0007.htm. In Kentucky, net metering will be tested through pilot programs run by the Louisville Gas and Electric Company and the Kentucky Utilities Company. The three-year pilots will allow 25 customers of each utility to try net metering, with residential customers limited to 10-kilowatt systems and non-residential customers limited to 25-kilowatt systems. The pilot applies to wind, hydropower, and solar installations. The utilities will install sophisticated meters to examine whether the systems feed power to the grid
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
indeed, see http://www.methane-gas.com and http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/methane.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:56 AM Subject: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE Let me tip your balance a bit. When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet. Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy. Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a stream. TILT! Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] what could it be?
Ken Provost wrote: snip Seriously, tho, what you're doing is great -- FFAs are basically the final effluent you have to deal with after neutralizing everything else. They're fairly strong herbicides, so you really don't want to just toss 'em in the compost with the aqueous phase. Ken, do you have a handy reference with more info on this? Are all FFAs herbicides? I know VFAs are generally recognised as phytotoxins, don't know about other FFAs. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] New member
These sort of crops for producing biofuel have a number of advantages. They are less energy intensive than corn meaning they don't require as much fertilizer, pesticide, fuel for tractors, etc. They can be planted on marginal land, that is, land that isn't suitable for traditional row crop agriculture. They are more effective at preventing soil erosion. When planted as a buffer between a field of crops and a wetlands or stream, they can take up chemical runoff from the field, protecting the water from contamination. They also provide habitat for wildlife. beki317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 04/30/2002 05:37 PM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:[biofuel] New member Hey guys. Just as some background, I'm a 16 year old girl from New York. I am on my school's Envirothon team (you can kinda guess what that's about...) and this year our problem is that hypothetically, the government of town or city wants to replace large fields of corn with growing switch grass and willow shrubs to produce biofuel. I was hoping you guys could help me with some pros and cons, especially pros, of doing this, like how would it really effect our environment? And what kind of mandates or tax breaks or what not would there be? I have found many great sites on using switch grass as biofuel, but absolutely none on willow shrubs. So help if you can! Please! Thanks :-) ~Beki Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
For more energy savings, if spoilage is not an issue (i.e. cattle feeding operation is nearby), stillage does not need to be totally dried to DDGS. It can be fed only partially dried. steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/01/2002 05:49 AM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:Re: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again indeed, see http://www.methane-gas.com and http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/methane.htm Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:56 AM Subject: Peculiar Farming for Fuel oversights was Re: [biofuel] Re: Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], jmwelter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that much of the grain produced in the world is directly fed to livestock and there are advantages and disadvantages here: advantages: a)the nutrients found in meat are more available to our bodies than those found in plants (especially proteins and fats) b)dairy cows fed distillers grains will produce more milk with higher protein (the stuff is extremely expensive because of that by the way) c)animal manure is the most efficient fertilizer compared to those made from oil! (and this should be the #1 consideration for renewable fuels since not all oil becomes gasoline but a major chunk is converted into ammonia and other fertilizers which increase yield while sacrificing the microorganisms which are the lifeblood of organic farming. disadvantage: a)except for feeding to dairy animals for milk production, the use of grains to feed cattle for meat is a very inefficient one. my conclusion: BALANCE Let me tip your balance a bit. When those Dairy cows you mentioned eat the DDGs (Distiller's Dried Grains) they produce manure. STOP! Don't put it on the field yet. Pass it through a Methane Digester first. You gain a bunch of energy in a usable form, and the manure is now odorless, and still has all the nutrients in it. The only thing missing is the energy. Some tests(no link handy) have shown the manure to be an even better fertilizer after the anaerobic bacteria have broken it down, making it more available to the plants, and less likely to wash into a stream. TILT! Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine
Thanks for the link Kirk -Original Message- From: Eric Schaetzle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 12:09 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: [OT] vortex tube and stirling engine Kirk, My understanding of thermodynamics is not at a level that would allow me to independently evaluate the potential efficiency of an engine given its design and running characteristics. According to the following website, Melvin Vaux apparently improved Bourke's design and patented his own engine in the 1990's. Sounds interesting. http://www.constant-pressure.com/News.htm Eric --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
I would like a copy please, Greg H. - Original Message - From: F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel List biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 07:44 Subject: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines Yes, please, I'll take two! :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
That's an affirmative. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel List biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:44 AM Subject: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fatty acids as herbicides
Keith wrote: Ken, do you have a handy reference with more info on this? Are all FFAs herbicides? I know VFAs are generally recognised as phytotoxins, don't know about other FFAs. Here's a first stab, not very detailed: http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/epd/ipm/docs/envirowe/chap8.htm go to the section on fatty acids. Also try a Google search on herbicidal properties fatty acids for another 350 hits. BTW, what does VFA stand for? -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me that maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little with a related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still. Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and velocity of the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute will start forming a galaxy shaped figure. This goes for any undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on the surface of a cup of tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... anything. When I say galaxy shaped it«s because that is what it looks like (and because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that spiraling tentacles which all seem to point out following a curved path. Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly rotated his head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched). We all know now that the WVO/methoxide reaction is an equilibrium reaction, which can attain a considerable efficiency, but does not reach completion. We have also said that in an equilibrium reaction, removing some of the products of the reaction displaces the reaction twards the products« side, thus forming a higher quantity of them (and this is useful when working with any eq. reaction). Last but not least, we all know how un-homely and $$$ a centrifuge machine can be. When you stirr your Biodiesel, a great portion will appear in a visible form. That is, if you start from 1lt WVO and 200 ml Methoxide, maybe you«ll get, say, 200 ml of untreated glycerin once you pass the settling stage (don«t qote me on that number... I«m using it to quantify my explanation). Probably after the 50 minutes mix you«ll already have at least 100 ml settling quicky at the bottom, and you«ll have to wait for the settling stage to get the other 100 ml out of the BD mixture. Now, if you use a circular container, as a stainless steel bucket (for my small batches, I use a satinless steel ice bucket), and you mix with an electric stirrer (I use a 9V motor with a steel coat hanger molded into something that resembles a rod with a small hoop at the end), and after that you try to form a deep vortex (still never allowing the vortex to reach the tip of the stirrer and forming trillions of unwanted bubbles), then you«ll get the mixture flowing in a circular motion. The glycerin that visibly separates after 50 minutes of stirring will probably be located just below the stirrer, in the center of the bucket, right at the bottom, just as in the cup of tea. If you placed a little tap (a hose epoxi-ed to the bucket and secured closed with a clamp), then, while stirring fast enough to make the fluid move in a circular matter, but slow enough to let this motion flow uniformly, you could take these 100 ml of glycerin out of the bucket, and allow the reaction to continue producing some more BD (and glyc). You could meanwhile separate the glycerin from any trespassing BD, and throw this small portion of BD back in again while you maintain the reaction for a bit longer, maybe 40 minutes more. I«ve still not tried this, but if there was any more settled glyc while stirring in the secnd stage, you could even perform a third stage, removing this newly formed glyc. The spiral galaxy forms because as the physics laws for circular motion tell us, the liquid moving far away from the center of rotation rotates at an angular velocity equal to that of the liquid close to the center, but covers a greater distance in the same time, so actually, it«s moving much faster than the liquid at the center. This is the principle of most separators used in the industry. At lower velocities, the particles settle. A spec of sand will only remain airborne at a certain air velocity, below which it will fall down. In the BG/Glyc system, the glycerin is denser so it sinks to the bottom, and behaves as the spec of sand jest described. In the periphery, far away from the center of the bucket, the mixer makes the fluid move quickly, but in the center (just below the stirrer), velocity drops and so, any decanted glycerin will tend to star gathering up near the center og the bucket and ath the bottom, fomring the spiral galaxy shape described (or at least following this pattern... various factor many times make this shape not so obvious). Sorry for the extent of this post. I hope someone tries this and sees how it works. If it really does, it could represent a great time saving (regarding Alek«s two stage method). Anyway, it is more complicated than Alek«s method and might require practice... if it really works. I recall having seen some glycerin just after I stopped stirring. This would be the moment to tap the glyc, and then continue
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
This is actually a very good idea. It's used in some very sophisticated biochemical production processes. You might look into a chemical engineering unit operations text for further development. Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/01/2002 11:18 AM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:[biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me that maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little with a related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still. Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and velocity of the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute will start forming a galaxy shaped figure. This goes for any undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on the surface of a cup of tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... anything. When I say galaxy shaped it«s because that is what it looks like (and because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that spiraling tentacles which all seem to point out following a curved path. Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly rotated his head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched). We all know now that the WVO/methoxide reaction is an equilibrium reaction, which can attain a considerable efficiency, but does not reach completion. We have also said that in an equilibrium reaction, removing some of the products of the reaction displaces the reaction twards the products« side, thus forming a higher quantity of them (and this is useful when working with any eq. reaction). Last but not least, we all know how un-homely and $$$ a centrifuge machine can be. When you stirr your Biodiesel, a great portion will appear in a visible form. That is, if you start from 1lt WVO and 200 ml Methoxide, maybe you«ll get, say, 200 ml of untreated glycerin once you pass the settling stage (don«t qote me on that number... I«m using it to quantify my explanation). Probably after the 50 minutes mix you«ll already have at least 100 ml settling quicky at the bottom, and you«ll have to wait for the settling stage to get the other 100 ml out of the BD mixture. Now, if you use a circular container, as a stainless steel bucket (for my small batches, I use a satinless steel ice bucket), and you mix with an electric stirrer (I use a 9V motor with a steel coat hanger molded into something that resembles a rod with a small hoop at the end), and after that you try to form a deep vortex (still never allowing the vortex to reach the tip of the stirrer and forming trillions of unwanted bubbles), then you«ll get the mixture flowing in a circular motion. The glycerin that visibly separates after 50 minutes of stirring will probably be located just below the stirrer, in the center of the bucket, right at the bottom, just as in the cup of tea. If you placed a little tap (a hose epoxi-ed to the bucket and secured closed with a clamp), then, while stirring fast enough to make the fluid move in a circular matter, but slow enough to let this motion flow uniformly, you could take these 100 ml of glycerin out of the bucket, and allow the reaction to continue producing some more BD (and glyc). You could meanwhile separate the glycerin from any trespassing BD, and throw this small portion of BD back in again while you maintain the reaction for a bit longer, maybe 40 minutes more. I«ve still not tried this, but if there was any more settled glyc while stirring in the secnd stage, you could even perform a third stage, removing this newly formed glyc. The spiral galaxy forms because as the physics laws for circular motion tell us, the liquid moving far away from the center of rotation rotates at an angular velocity equal to that of the liquid close to the center, but covers a greater distance in the same time, so actually, it«s moving much faster than the liquid at the center. This is the principle of most separators used in the industry. At lower velocities, the particles settle. A spec of sand will only remain airborne at a certain air velocity, below which it will fall down. In the BG/Glyc system, the glycerin is denser so it sinks to the bottom, and behaves as the spec of sand jest described. In the periphery, far away from the center of the bucket, the mixer makes the fluid move quickly, but in the center (just below the stirrer), velocity drops and so, any decanted glycerin will tend to star gathering up near the center og the bucket and ath the bottom, fomring the spiral galaxy shape described (or at least following this pattern... various factor many times
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
This is correct. I guess centrifugal separation would be a better idea for continuous processing, as it would allow fresh feed to be introduced. Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/01/2002 11:01 AM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] what could it be?
Where can I find info on continuous process for BD? Thanks - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] what could it be? Ken Provost wrote: snip Seriously, tho, what you're doing is great -- FFAs are basically the final effluent you have to deal with after neutralizing everything else. They're fairly strong herbicides, so you really don't want to just toss 'em in the compost with the aqueous phase. Ken, do you have a handy reference with more info on this? Are all FFAs herbicides? I know VFAs are generally recognised as phytotoxins, don't know about other FFAs. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term phase really applies here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will have a way of knowing if the layer og glycerin belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep. I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need hard references for the displacement of the reaction how to-s. If what you point is right, then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out... assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right, there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping the reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after in the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and this is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the BD you might be discarding the layer in between (unless you store these layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the leftovers) Am I being clear here? I think not. The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first stage you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine interphase layer of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed with stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and so you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to remaove the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage. Regards, Christian - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
ANYWAY: 1.- Le Chatelier«s Principle: the position of equilibrium always shifts in such a direction that eases the tension applied on the system 2.- Chemical reactions DO NOT END in the equilibrium, but rather it is at this point where the speed of the reacion in one way and the other are equal. This means that in the equilibrium, there is as much glycerin and BD combining to produce MeOH and WVO as there is WVO and MeOH combining to produce glycerin and BD. If you take this into consideration, then I figure you can say that removing the glycerin to a bucket six feet away is the only way in which you can favour the equilibrium towards the products side, «cause if there still is an interfase between glycerin and BD/WVO, you will still have amounts of glyc/BD in the interfase of the liquids combining to form more WVO/MeOH. What I still can«t explain is how the amount of (not the presence of) glycerin may favour the reaction towards one side or the other. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
Include me on that list as well. Can you post it with Keith? g a whitson- -- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fwd: Crude Glycerine 80% min purtity
Anyone interested? If so, please respond direct to Mr Strassberg, not to the list or to me or to Journey to Forever. If you make megabucks out of it, an introduction fee might fit in our woefully emptyish kitty rather well. g Keith From: Edward Strassberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Crude Glycerine 80% min purtity Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 12:43:22 -0400 X-Priority: 3 Dear Export |Sirs, If you supply, please quote your compeitive cost for the above subject: Material: Palm or Tallow base Quanity per shipment; : 6,000 mt Regular shipments of same CIF: Busan or inchon Korean port Packing: Used drum is acceptable Thank you kindly and we look forward to working closely with you, Edward Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Waste of energy
Using a still to obtain ethyl alcohol as fuel takes a lot of energy. You need to bring almost to boil ten gallons of liquid to obtain one gallon of alcohol. There are some sugars in the cooked mash that are not converted to alcohol and will be discarted. Some one knows a more efficient method?. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fatty acids as herbicides
Keith wrote: Ken, do you have a handy reference with more info on this? Are all FFAs herbicides? I know VFAs are generally recognised as phytotoxins, don't know about other FFAs. Here's a first stab, not very detailed: http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/epd/ipm/docs/envirowe/chap8.htm go to the section on fatty acids. Also try a Google search on herbicidal properties fatty acids for another 350 hits. BTW, what does VFA stand for? -K Thankyou Ken. VFA = Very Fine Answer? g Sorry - volatile fatty acid. What you get when your compost doesn't reach completion (as opposed to your biodiesel!). As in anaerobic, not good for plants, nor for the soil life. Phenolic acids (PCs) are also phytotoxins (plant poinsons), also breakdown products. But these phytotoxins are such things as acetic acid, propionic acid, butyric acid, vanillic acid, p-hydroxybenzoic acid, p-coumaric acid, not things you'd find with your glyc, I don't think. The main FFAs in the oils after splitting are lauric acid, myristic acid, palmitic acid, stearic acid, oleic acid, linolic acid, linolenic acid. (Hey, I don't know too much about this stuff!) But I think these are all long-chain fatty acids, not VFAs, and I don't find much about their phytotoxic properties, although they do inhibit seed germination. The VFAs seem to be breakdown products. Fatty acids are certainly used as herbicides, but I think not just any fatty acid. I'll keep looking, thanks much for the leads. Anyway, Ken, if you do good compost, that is aerobic compost that gets hot (thermophilic), above 60 deg C, and you let it cure a bit after it's finished, all FFAs will be broken down safely and won't kill your plants. The difficulty with such gunky stuff would be to ensure that the oxygen supply can get at it. You'd have to cut it thoroughly with something dry and crumbly (sawdust, woodchips, whatever) so it wasn't just a sticky mess. (Squeeze some in your fist and it should make a ball, but the ball should crumble apart easily.) Then, with the usual provisos re C:N ratio, moisture content and aeration, you'll be fine. With vermicomposting, the worms wouldn't be able to handle it directly, but if there was enough other stuff in there breaking down (the worms have a great influence on the whole process even before they start eating the stuff), they'd be able to deal with it eventually and again you'd end up with a safe product. One test of finished compost is whether cress seeds will germinate in it, and that's just what it's testing - cress seeds are very sensitive to fatty acids. If they won't germinate, it doesn't mean you shouldn't have put fatty acids in it in the first place, just that the process wasn't properly controlled or that it hasn't cured for long enough. Two commercial herbicides are currently causing trouble because they don't break down in compost, but these are synthetic products, not natural FFAs, and they're toxic to plants in tiny amounts. Picloram - 4-amino-3,5,6-trichloropicolinic acid, aka Tordon, Grazon, Access, Pathway, Agent White, and especially Clopyralid - 3,6-dichloro-2-pyridinecarboxylic acid, aka Stinger, Reclaim, Transline. But anything that was once part of something alive and hasn't since been fossilised will break down safely. Regards Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
You'll be removing some methanol too, Christian, don't forget. Which version of Aleks's method are you using? The updated version has quite a few changes, and one of them is that the glyc isn't removed after the acid stage, but it is progressively removed during the second stage (if your processor permits). Thankyou for explaining the spiral galaxy in my coffee, I always wondered how it got there without a Big Bang. No, seriously, nice explanation, you can watch it forming and see some basic principle at work, nice to have it explained. Very interested to know if it leads to a process improvement, that would be great, and a nice story to tell too. Best Keith Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term phase really applies here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will have a way of knowing if the layer og glycerin belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep. I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need hard references for the displacement of the reaction how to-s. If what you point is right, then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out... assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right, there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping the reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after in the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and this is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the BD you might be discarding the layer in between (unless you store these layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the leftovers) Am I being clear here? I think not. The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first stage you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine interphase layer of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed with stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and so you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to remaove the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage. Regards, Christian - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
Include me on that list as well. Can you post it with Keith? g a whitson- Hi Gaw, Marc and all Sure, I could do that. I was just about to say Me too please! Marc, but this might save you some trouble? What's the rule? I think you can make a patented something for experimentation or education or your own use, can't you? Best Keith -- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Waste of energy
Using a still to obtain ethyl alcohol as fuel takes a lot of energy. You need to bring almost to boil ten gallons of liquid to obtain one gallon of alcohol. There are some sugars in the cooked mash that are not converted to alcohol and will be discarted. Some one knows a more efficient method?. Don't know what yeasts you're using, but I can get at least 18% alcohol by volume with Gerd Strand's TurboYeast from Sweden. Use a solar still to feed a 4-ft fractionating column and you can easily get 95% ethanol with NO energy expenditure. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
You can build one for yourself, you just can't build for commerce. Kirk Right, thanks Kirk. No problem then. Keith -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:03 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol Include me on that list as well. Can you post it with Keith? g a whitson- Hi Gaw, Marc and all Sure, I could do that. I was just about to say Me too please! Marc, but this might save you some trouble? What's the rule? I think you can make a patented something for experimentation or education or your own use, can't you? Best Keith -- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
You can build one for yourself, you just can't build for commerce. Kirk -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:03 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol Include me on that list as well. Can you post it with Keith? g a whitson- Hi Gaw, Marc and all Sure, I could do that. I was just about to say Me too please! Marc, but this might save you some trouble? What's the rule? I think you can make a patented something for experimentation or education or your own use, can't you? Best Keith -- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fatty acids as herbicides
Keith: Thanks back at ya for the composting answer. I'm a city guy these days, but when I retire to the boondocks I'll be composting and using a septic tank, so I'm trying to learn about it ahead of time. The only actual product I've found that uses fatty acids as an herbicide is called Scythe, and it's pelargonic acid, AKA nonanoic acid -- 9 carbons long, half the length of oleic. But I bet oleic works too!. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Waste of energy
Well, you could always use a solar still, and have free energy. And why would you discard the mash? That's pretty wasteful. You should be measuring the sugar content with a sacrometer in the first place so you don't put more in than will be converted. And then the spent mash is either fed directly to hogs or cattle or dried to sell. On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 06:51:52PM -, on7tim7 wrote: Using a still to obtain ethyl alcohol as fuel takes a lot of energy. You need to bring almost to boil ten gallons of liquid to obtain one gallon of alcohol. There are some sugars in the cooked mash that are not converted to alcohol and will be discarted. Some one knows a more efficient method?. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
steve spence wrote: Gasoline is ~118,000 BTU/gallon Diesel is ~135,000 BTU/gallon Ethanol is ~80,000 BTU/gallon BioDiesel is ~117,000 BTU/gallon this, btw, is very interesting. take the time to go through it all. http://www.tc.gc.ca/envaffairs/climate/doc_converti/Etoh/ETOH-FNL-RPTAug30-1999.htm http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/questions.html Thank you Steve! Have not read through entirely but question energy value that does not, I think, consider Internal Combustion (IC) engine compression ratio (CR) and ethanol OH, octane boost. For example (e.g.): http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm The energy value of a gallon of ethanol varies from 75,700 BTU 84,000 BTU depending on burning temperature. We will use a figure of 80,000 BTU as this is the energy value of ethanol burning at 25 degrees C. If eye remember correctly 100% ethanol optimally utilizes about 12:1 CR. As the ethanol to gasoline ratio increases ideally so should CR. With increased compression also temperature. I don't have a link at this time but what I understand is ethanol to gasoline relationship begins to balance or equalize efficiency (mpg) when engine/fuel specific CR is observed. The OH provides a measurable increase in complete combustion magnified by CR (ideally) suitable for ethanol octane rating. I believe I read this as well in the The Mother Earth News (TMEN) article about their ethanol pick up truck conversion or Steve or Keith's site on ethanol production. What I've observed with my GeMe is increased mpg with E-10/gasohol more then not. The station pumps reads: gasoline 87 octane, E-10/gasohol 89 octane. Again thank you Steve for the links and will read further. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
Thaks for the compliment. Anyhow, I just made a mini 1 lt batch and repeating the BD preparation processs I«m seeing the glyc first produced still needs a couple of minutes to settle gather up at the bottom. More miportant still, I had also forgotten the methoxide mixed in it and would be removed if I took away the glyc. -thanks for the reminder-. I think we won«t be seeing how spiral galaxies influence the BD manufacture process for now. Well, it takes many failures to get to a good improvement. Anyway it was worth the chat. Greetings, Christian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) You'll be removing some methanol too, Christian, don't forget. Which version of Aleks's method are you using? The updated version has quite a few changes, and one of them is that the glyc isn't removed after the acid stage, but it is progressively removed during the second stage (if your processor permits). Thankyou for explaining the spiral galaxy in my coffee, I always wondered how it got there without a Big Bang. No, seriously, nice explanation, you can watch it forming and see some basic principle at work, nice to have it explained. Very interested to know if it leads to a process improvement, that would be great, and a nice story to tell too. Best Keith Sounds logical, (anyway I don«t know if the term phase really applies here). But it sounds unreasonable to believe the reaction taking place in the WVO/BD/MeOH layer will have a way of knowing if the layer og glycerin belw is 1cm, 2cm or a mile deep. I need to go back to over my books for this one. We need hard references for the displacement of the reaction how to-s. If what you point is right, then centrifugating the mixture while processing (just to gather the glycerine together) should be enough, without havin to tap it out... assuming you can afford a centrifugue. And if this principle is right, there«s another implication: In Alek«s 2 stage method, simply stopping the reaction at 3/4 vol methoxide, and adding the remaining 1/4 the day after in the same mixture (without separating the glycerin) would be OK... and this is something important because each time you separate the glyc from the BD you might be discarding the layer in between (unless you store these layers for further processings and then separate and gather up all the leftovers) Am I being clear here? I think not. The point is that in the traditional 2 stage method, after the first stage you separate the glycerin and remove it, taking along with it some fine interphase layer of BD with it. But if the assumtion yuo mentioned is right, there«d be no need for this and you could simply reheat, proceed with stage 2 (adding the remaining 1/4 MeOH) and finishing the reaction, and so you«d avoid removing the glycerin (together with avoiding the drawback of removing the small interphase layer of BD for every syage) just to remaove the whole lot of glycerin after the last stage. Regards, Christian - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 2 stages... what if? (new method?) I don't have any hard references on this, but I believe the precipitation of glycerine from the biodiesel reaction as a separate phase is all that is required to shift the equilibrium. Whether a glycerine molecule is in a separate droplet a millimeter away, or a separate bucket six feet away, it's basically out of the picture. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me that maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little with a related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still. Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and velocity of the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute will start forming a galaxy shaped figure. This goes for any undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on the surface of a cup of tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... anything. When I say galaxy shaped it«s because that is what it looks like (and because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that spiraling tentacles which all seem to point out following a curved path. Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly rotated his head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched). That is a very intriguing possibility. I don't have time to conduct any experiments with your idea, but I do agree it should be worth some further investigation by someone with an interest and the time. If anyone does any experimentation with this method of separation, PLEASE post it here. I have an inkling that the diameter will have a fairly large effect on the results, as well as the speed of rotation. This could have many applications outside of the field of home Biodiesel production. Fermentation projects come to mind. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
Some pharmaceutical manufacturers perform separation of continuous fermentation products in centrifuges. Product leaves centrifuge for further refining and purification and fermentation medium can be recycled. motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/01/2002 04:33 PM Please respond to biofuel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc: (bcc: Shaen Rooney/APCP/DEQ/MODNR) Subject:[biofuel] Re: 2 stages... what if? (new method?) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was reading Alek«s 2 stage method today, when it came upon me that maybe, to a certain degree, we could boost efficiency a little with a related method. It«s nothing out of this world, but still. Has anyone ever watched when stirring a solution with undissolved particles still in it, that because of centrifugal forces and velocity of the fluid, after neatly stirring in circles, the solute will start forming a galaxy shaped figure. This goes for any undissolved particles: maybe the thin foam on the surface of a cup of tea, or the undissolved sugar at the bottom... anything. When I say galaxy shaped it«s because that is what it looks like (and because the same physics rules surely apply to the formation of them)... i.e.: a sort of open spiral, with a core that spiraling tentacles which all seem to point out following a curved path. Sort of as if you held an octupus from above, and slightly rotated his head with his tentacles still on the ground: from up top you«d see the head (core) and the spiraling tentacles. But enough about that (I hope my explanation is not too far fetched). That is a very intriguing possibility. I don't have time to conduct any experiments with your idea, but I do agree it should be worth some further investigation by someone with an interest and the time. If anyone does any experimentation with this method of separation, PLEASE post it here. I have an inkling that the diameter will have a fairly large effect on the results, as well as the speed of rotation. This could have many applications outside of the field of home Biodiesel production. Fermentation projects come to mind. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again
They changed the way of measuring octane rating. Ethyl alcohol was 100 under the old system. Probably a higher number under the new system. Optimum compression is just before it detonates. Race cars ran 13.5 to 1 with alcohol. The more you put your foot in something the hotter it gets. If racers ran 13.5 to 1 grandma could probably run a but higher. Fuel efficiency is directly proportional to compression ratio. Kirk -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:34 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Is it now time to talk to your congressman?? again steve spence wrote: Gasoline is ~118,000 BTU/gallon Diesel is ~135,000 BTU/gallon Ethanol is ~80,000 BTU/gallon BioDiesel is ~117,000 BTU/gallon this, btw, is very interesting. take the time to go through it all. http://www.tc.gc.ca/envaffairs/climate/doc_converti/Etoh/ETOH-FNL-RPTAug30-1 999.htm http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm http://www.afdc.nrel.gov/questions.html Thank you Steve! Have not read through entirely but question energy value that does not, I think, consider Internal Combustion (IC) engine compression ratio (CR) and ethanol OH, octane boost. For example (e.g.): http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/magrack/SF/Winter%2091%20M.htm The energy value of a gallon of ethanol varies from 75,700 BTU 84,000 BTU depending on burning temperature. We will use a figure of 80,000 BTU as this is the energy value of ethanol burning at 25 degrees C. If eye remember correctly 100% ethanol optimally utilizes about 12:1 CR. As the ethanol to gasoline ratio increases ideally so should CR. With increased compression also temperature. I don't have a link at this time but what I understand is ethanol to gasoline relationship begins to balance or equalize efficiency (mpg) when engine/fuel specific CR is observed. The OH provides a measurable increase in complete combustion magnified by CR (ideally) suitable for ethanol octane rating. I believe I read this as well in the The Mother Earth News (TMEN) article about their ethanol pick up truck conversion or Steve or Keith's site on ethanol production. What I've observed with my GeMe is increased mpg with E-10/gasohol more then not. The station pumps reads: gasoline 87 octane, E-10/gasohol 89 octane. Again thank you Steve for the links and will read further. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.350 / Virus Database: 196 - Release Date: 4/17/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
Of course! and if you can't legally... I won't tell. I'm going to look into this system as well, hopefully it isn't too complicated or chemically-prohibitive. -Martin --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, I could do that. I was just about to say Me too please! Marc, but this might save you some trouble? What's the rule? I think you can make a patented something for experimentation or education or your own use, can't you? Best Keith = -Martin Klingensmith http://archive.nnytech.net/ http://devzero.ath.cx/ http://www.nnytech.net/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: RE: [biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
Marc I would like a copy of that if you would. George -- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc I would like a copy of that if you would. George -- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines i also would like a copy. regards,roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] methanol
has anyone in the group produced their own methanol from wood gas? regards,roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Rapeseed oil as fuel
Suggest saving this one. http://www.chalmers.se/Nyheter/2001/vecka08/rapsolja.html Edward Beggs, BES, MSc www.biofuels.ca Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: 2 stages... what if? (new method?)
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thaks for the compliment. Anyhow, I just made a mini 1 lt batch and repeating the BD preparation processs I«m seeing the glyc first produced still needs a couple of minutes to settle gather up at the bottom. More miportant still, I had also forgotten the methoxide mixed in it and would be removed if I took away the glyc. -thanks for the reminder-. I think we won«t be seeing how spiral galaxies influence the BD manufacture process for now. Well, it takes many failures to get to a good improvement. Anyway it was worth the chat. Greetings, Christian It may not have use for Biodiesel production, but I can see potential in other areas, such as removing dead Yeasts and sludge from the bottom of a fermenter. Instead of decanting the 'good stuff' into a secondary fermenter, simply remove the 'bad stuff' from the container it's already in, and proceed with secondary fermentation. I'm sure there are other uses for the idea also. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol
I would like to have a copy of Us patent on Continuous manufacture of absolute alcohol. [EMAIL PROTECTED] F. Marc de Piolenc To: Biofuel List [EMAIL PROTECTED]biofuel@yahoogroups.com om.com cc: Subject: [biofuel] 04/30/02 Continuous manufacture of 07:14 PM absolute alcohol Please respond to biofuel While looking for something else, came up with a copy of US Patent 1,704,213, Apparatus for the Continuous Manufacture of Absolute Alcohol and scanned it. Anybody want it? Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines -- Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Huge Hydrogen Stores Found Below Earth's Crust
I'm also sure that if I could find a backer for that amount, there will be another hurdle beyond this one. I'm in a holding pattern now, until after the elections. Depending on the outcome, I'll determine how to proceed from there. Until I get this resolved, I am working on other interests on a MUCH smaller scale, and self-financed. Motie Obviously, this was a really intriguing exposition. I will look forward to your sharing of further developments, if possible. A few thoughts: In the U.S., over the last twenty years or so, we've seen some real increase in discussion of creators' rights, _in a way_, on the copyright side of things. At first this was really focused on the computer software copyright issue. Recently, that has been extended to the effort to protect music and video creators' rights, since music and video have become de facto computer files (though they are not active programs generally). I think it would be false and overly simplistic to summarize that computer software creators have fully adequate and excellent copyright protection, or that they are on the other hand as helpless as energy-device inventors. The answer is probably that copyright protection for the little guy is not that bad, with some effort, but could stand improvement, that it's certainly true sometimes that copyrights to software are violated, but that on the balance, part of the reason we've seen such a massive growth in this industry has been precisely because there is some protection afforded individual writers of software, by our legal system. No doubt about it, this can be a bit misleading, because there are probably myriad times when giant corporations a la Microsoft treat others' copyrights with the disdain that they would instantly decry were the same done to their own copyrights, and with not only financial clout but some psychology on their side (what creator whose love of their invention kept them going wants to tear himself away and spend years in court), they have doubtless won a few times where they should have lost. Likewise, despite the recent publicity brought to the issue of protection for artistic works, even a foolproof crackdown on art-file-piracy would not guarantee artists' rights. There is every evidence that large corporations have at times, or systematically, benefitted in an imbalanced way from their publication of various artists' work, while not adequately paying them the agreed-upon amount, or that the agreed-upon amounts have been unduly too low due precisely to the fact that the artists on their own could not only not afford production of their work but could not afford legal protection of it. This infuriating problem... the fact that the cost of protection of great creations is regarded as a de facto blackmail item in bending the arms of creators to do business with large protection rackets, I mean companies, is I think a part of things. Not to say that I think things are this simple, just making the argument. I see none of this discussion going on with respect to patents, energy device inventions, or other inventions, outside of computers. In order for things to progress from increased-public-discourse-and-attention to real legal change, I think it would take a long time (decades?) so there is a long way to go. I thought this reading was instructive on following the costs of patent protection. I am not recommending the company: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020213/dew024_1.html It is perhaps arguable that a reason for many inventors to be involved with small companies going public is, primarily, because without this process they wouldn't be able to afford patent protection on top of product development sales and marketing costs. Pity. We are very far removed from the days of Tom Edison. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] need info fuel cell true or false
check out http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/fuelcell.htm Has anyone here any experience with investigating biofuel use in fuel cells? All I know is that MDTL is very clearly interested in using ethanol in micro fuel cells. But in the arena of mid-to-large-size fuel cells, I hear very little about biofuels. This is not surprising because somehow anything not oil-company-sold is not highly-investigated, but there simply must be some research into using ethanol and biodiesel in fuel cells. I've seen it characterized as difficult, but I've been expecting at some point a fuel cell maker to announce that they're quite useable. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
