[Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?
Hi all, As you will know, glycerin is highly hygroscopic. Did anyone of you ever try to make 100% ethanol (200 proof) using glycerin ? Pieter Netherlands. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?
Are you saying that it may be possible to take the gycerin by product after making biodiesel, ferment it then distill it to make ethanol? -Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bioclaire Nederland Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:53 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ? Hi all, As you will know, glycerin is highly hygroscopic. Did anyone of you ever try to make 100% ethanol (200 proof) using glycerin ? Pieter Netherlands. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ?
Are you saying that it may be possible to take the gycerin by product after making biodiesel, ferment it then distill it to make ethanol? -Mark See: Absolute Alcohol Using Glycerine http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html#alcglyc Keith -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bioclaire Nederland Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:53 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] ethanol method glycerin ? Hi all, As you will know, glycerin is highly hygroscopic. Did anyone of you ever try to make 100% ethanol (200 proof) using glycerin ? Pieter Netherlands. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Can somebody explain me what is Drano ? Pieter. - Original Message - From: Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method This is more a warning than a question. But many years ago I was told that if you put Drano in a ping pong ball by use of a syringe then seal the hole. Throw the ball in gasoline and run your ass off. The gas was supposed to melt the ball and there was supposed to be a very big explosion. I never tried this although I was young at the time, I was not that stupid. If this is true gas in bio with lye have a negative effect. As I said this maybe a myth but its worth checking on. Good health. Derick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:46 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too much. Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for mixing it with 15% gasoline or such. While I don't think this is necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil, not problems with the gasoline component per se. It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline, although I am not sure about that. Z On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Here in Paraguay absolute alcohol takes place to use in cars with structure modified mechanics, it is pure ethanol. That is here an advantage. then like you recommend to make ethoxid?, if it is with KOH, like you to extract 5% of water that it is generated with the reaction KOH + EtOH.. I will prove again with NaOH in 7 g/l heating. Then I will see that it happens. How much isgood proportion to prove with new oil? _ Descubre la descarga digital con MSN Music. Más de un millón de canciones. http://music.msn.es/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Sorry Pieter I guess I should have told you Drano is a NHO caustic soda base drain cleaner. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bioclaire Nederland Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 10:03 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method Can somebody explain me what is Drano ? Pieter. - Original Message - From: Derick Giorchino [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method This is more a warning than a question. But many years ago I was told that if you put Drano in a ping pong ball by use of a syringe then seal the hole. Throw the ball in gasoline and run your ass off. The gas was supposed to melt the ball and there was supposed to be a very big explosion. I never tried this although I was young at the time, I was not that stupid. If this is true gas in bio with lye have a negative effect. As I said this maybe a myth but its worth checking on. Good health. Derick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:46 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too much. Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for mixing it with 15% gasoline or such. While I don't think this is necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil, not problems with the gasoline component per se. It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline, although I am not sure about that. Z On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method in remote place
Hello Anthonio, Ken and Keith Iam sure that big company like BASF are trying to make ethoxideIN GLOBAL Market in big scale to sell to ruralpeople (high price too) so that Biod can be easily made with ethoxide( ethanol and NaOH)using patended catalyst, butwe can make in the cites this one as well outined process by Ken here ( Thanka a lot for HEN) thus BioD can be produced by any oneand any where, especially where even in rural remote place .This can be more practical and easy wayso that Anthoni can get help from university in the city , who has technical skill to make possible the dificult part of the process ( the chemical engineering people like us ) colaborating , his dreams to make cheap biofuel,can be the wish of all our members inthe list. Can any here in our list , and sure Keith to to bring here the stae of art of making the Biod in different places, what is pro and against the etoxide methods.Can this method can help or not the biofuel development against the petroleium fuel. Thanking you Yours truely Pannirselvam P.V Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOHHave you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It isdifficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps byboiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possiblymake biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOHper liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you willprobably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All youringredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever.Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel.-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Bring words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method in remote place
On Jan 26, 2006, at 2:29 AM, pan ruti wrote: I am sure that big company like BASF are trying to make ethoxide IN GLOBAL Market in big scale to sell to rural people (high price too) so that Biod can be easily made with ethoxide( ethanol and NaOH). If you started with pure sodium ethoxide as a catalyst rather than trying to make your own with ethanol and lye, you could have an easier time of it. Might be hard to find in a rural area, but it has the added advantage of not contributing water to the mix. You could also use sodium metal rather than lye (!!!) to produce your own ethoxide. Can any here in our list ..what is pro and against the ethoxide methods. The biggest disadvantage of ethanol over methanol is that the base-catalyzed biodiesel reactions do not occur as readily, since ethanol is less acidic than methanol. More catalyst is needed, and more ethanol to drive the equilibrium. Acid-catalyzed ESTERification (of soapstock or FFA) would occur just as easily with ethanol as methanol. Another major problem with ethanol is that distillation alone will not produce anhydrous ethanol, which is essential for the base-catalyzed method. The biggest advantage of ethanol is the obvious one -- it is readily produced and distilled (but not easily dried) all over the world from renewable sources. The best solution for biodiesel would be a cheap easy way to make methanol from biomass. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too much. Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for mixing it with 15% gasoline or such. While I don't think this is necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil, not problems with the gasoline component per se. It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline, although I am not sure about that. Z On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hello Bob, yes, you are right, recovered ethanol will likely contain 500 ppm of water. This ethanol can then possibly only be used in small portions for forward production of ethyl esters. It is however important to find out the purity of the recovered ethanol before any conclusions can be drawn. It is also likely that a big part of the water content of the biodiesel will enter the most polar phase (glycerol phase), which may make it possible to re-use the ethanol. It does not sound too thrilling to use E85 as an ethanol source. There are a number of research projects that have used gasoline-contaning ethanol, and this with production difficulties from time to time. Assuming that biodiesel from E85 is produced, the actual gasoline content would be max 15% of the esterified ethanol ,about 15% of 13-14% which makes max 2,1% in total gasoline content in the biodiesel. This amount will not influence the viscosity, nor the density severly. It is doubtful that it will effect the cetane number or the material compability properties more than marginally. However, if the ethanol is recovered, it is highly likeky to assume that some of the gasoline will enter this phase instead of staying in the biodiesel. The BD may still have an odour of gasoline though. AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
This is more a warning than a question. But many years ago I was told that if you put Drano in a ping pong ball by use of a syringe then seal the hole. Throw the ball in gasoline and run your ass off. The gas was supposed to melt the ball and there was supposed to be a very big explosion. I never tried this although I was young at the time, I was not that stupid. If this is true gas in bio with lye have a negative effect. As I said this maybe a myth but its worth checking on. Good health. Derick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:46 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method A small amount of gasoline in the biodiesel shouldn't affect it too much. Some of the crazy schemes for using unheated SVO call for mixing it with 15% gasoline or such. While I don't think this is necessarily good for the diesel engine, the majority of the problems I have heard of from doing this are not sufficiently dissolving the oil, not problems with the gasoline component per se. It also seems that gasoline should be separable from biodiesel by distillation, because of the much lower vapor pressure of gasoline, although I am not sure about that. Z On 1/26/06, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hi all has anyone tried distilling the ethanol through desiccant like they use in air dryers on compressors and air brake systems? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jan Warnqvist Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 7:56 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hi Bob, I often add about 0.5% gasoline to my oil before I begin the transesterification process, usually in extremely humid or damp weather. Not scientific at all, really, but the gasoline 'polishes' the used oil a bit, and the benzene content seems to remedy the moisture content which could result in a batch of glop soap. Keith Addison poo-poo's this, probably for good reason, but it works for me. Only problem is I'm wary of composting my glycerin when gasoline is added. Kenji Fuse On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, bob allen wrote: Jan, Wouldn't you expect that 500 ppm water would be picked up in any recovered ethanol, due to even a small amount of soap production? also if the ethanol used is for automobile use, is it an E-85 blend, ie, 15% gasoline? If so I would think that the gasoline would partition into any biodiesel made from this alcohol source. How would the gasoline impact the biodiesel? Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello Bias Antonio, Ken is right, the NaOH dissolves a lot quicker in ethanol if heated. In order to make ethyl esters the quality of the reactants has to be high: ethanol min 99,5% pure and oil with a water content 500 ppm and a stochiometric surplus of ethanol of at least 75% and why not 100% ? The economy of this is depending upon your possibilities of recover the excess ethanol. Good luck to you AGERATEC AB Jan Warnqvist - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] ethanol method
thanks, but the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paraguay it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH In the archives I read that one can using a meth - eth cricker but economically it is not possible.. Is some form of making without using methanol? _ Descubre la descarga digital con MSN Music. Más de un millón de canciones. http://music.msn.es/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
On Jan 25, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Blas Antonio Guanes wrote: the problem is that, methanol costs 4 $ and pure ethanol for car costs 0.52 $, NaOH is gotten in any part.. KOH is sold in bags of 25 kilos for soap industry.. Here in Paragua it is difficult to get chemical products. for that reason I want know how I can make with oil, ethanol and NaOH Have you tried dissolving NaOH in pure anhydrous ethanol? It is difficult. If you can dissolve the required amount (perhaps by boiling the ethanol/NaOH mixture under reflux), you could possibly make biodiesel out of very clean dry oil. If you only use 3.5g NaOH per liter of oil, or if your ethanol or oil contain any water, you will probably never achieve separation of a glycerine phase. All your ingredients go into a clear solution, and just stay that way forever. Until glycerine separates, you don't have biodiesel. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hello Bob Bob Allen wrote: Howdy Tom, I am surprised that the method works at all. There is a fundamental problem with the pKa's of ethanol and methanol. the equilibrium KOH + EtOH -- KOEt + H2O favors the left side of the equasion whereas for methanol KOH + MeOH --- KOMe + H2O favors the right side. The only way I know it would work is if you generate the KOEt via an alternative route as I suggested before. Use K, KH, or dry the ethoxide mixture via azotropic distillation. I'd much like to know more about why ethyl esters is so difficult, but people do get it to work. How are they getting round this problem? Here's the ethyl esters section of our website: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Ethyl esters -- making ethanol biodiesel There are links there to four studies in the Biofuels Library. The first one is from the report Tom is using: Optimization of a Batch Type Ethyl Ester Process -- Charles Peterson et al., University of Idaho, 1996 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethyl_esters.html Production and Testing of Ethyl and Methyl Esters, University of Idaho, Dec 1994. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylMethylEsters.html Transesterification Process to Manufacture Ethyl Ester of Rape Oil, University of Idaho (Acrobat file, 672Kb) http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylEsterofRapeOil.pdf Making and Testing a Biodiesel Fuel Made From Ethanol and Waste French-Fry Oil, University of Idaho (Acrobat file, 2.4Mb) http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylWVO.pdf Could you shed any light on how they're getting round the equilibrium problem? Best wishes Keith Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob, I use density to determine the purity of the ethanol and a mass balance to check on my 3A regeneration technique. I have a fairly good Metler balance (PR 203) that reads to the third decimal place so should be accurate to the second. The procedure I'm trying to duplicate is the one on JTF. Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996 For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627 University of Idaho, College of Agriculture, the University of Idaho. Is another method more reliable? Tom Irwin From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:17:27 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried? and 2. what procedure are you using for bioD from ethanol? Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob and all, I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it. Tom Irwin *From:* bob allen [mailto:javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org)[EMAIL PROTECTED] nablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide: K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2 KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2 (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved) or for someone with good laboratory skills: combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion. The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective. Kuba-tlen wrote: Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows how to easily dry ethanol? -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hi Kieth, Keith Addison wrote: Hello Bob snip I'd much like to know more about why ethyl esters is so difficult, but people do get it to work. How are they getting round this problem? the short answer is I don't know. I've communicating with those having success, and read the papers of successful procedures. My answer as to why the reaction shouldn't work is obviously wrong. There is more to be considered than the simple equilibrium I wrote about. Particularly, there is an issue of reactivity. Ethoxide, albeit present at lower concentrations than hydroxide, is more reactive (nucleophilic). These properties, concentration and reactivity offset, so the reaction proceeds. I still think yields are lower even under the best of circumstances with ethanol than methanol. Overall the production of ethyl esters seems to require a lot more precision than making methyl esters. I made one attempt with ethyl ester synthesis, got no separation initially (base catalyzed method), and gave it up. My attention now is simply to train students in lab scale preparations and next week start a series of community workshops. I too would like to hear more from successful ethyl ester producers as to the the differences in methyl and ethyl ester preparation, 'cause right now I am about as clueless as anyone else. Here's the ethyl esters section of our website: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester Make your own biodiesel - page 2: Ethyl esters -- making ethanol biodiesel There are links there to four studies in the Biofuels Library. The first one is from the report Tom is using: Optimization of a Batch Type Ethyl Ester Process -- Charles Peterson et al., University of Idaho, 1996 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethyl_esters.html Production and Testing of Ethyl and Methyl Esters, University of Idaho, Dec 1994. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylMethylEsters.html Transesterification Process to Manufacture Ethyl Ester of Rape Oil, University of Idaho (Acrobat file, 672Kb) http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylEsterofRapeOil.pdf Making and Testing a Biodiesel Fuel Made From Ethanol and Waste French-Fry Oil, University of Idaho (Acrobat file, 2.4Mb) http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/EthylWVO.pdf Could you shed any light on how they're getting round the equilibrium problem? Best wishes Keith Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob, I use density to determine the purity of the ethanol and a mass balance to check on my 3A regeneration technique. I have a fairly good Metler balance (PR 203) that reads to the third decimal place so should be accurate to the second. The procedure I'm trying to duplicate is the one on JTF. Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996 For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627 University of Idaho, College of Agriculture, the University of Idaho. Is another method more reliable? Tom Irwin From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:17:27 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried? and 2. what procedure are you using for bioD from ethanol? Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob and all, I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it. Tom Irwin *From:* bob allen [mailto:javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org)[EMAIL PROTECTED] nablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide: K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2 KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2 (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved) or for someone with good laboratory skills: combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion. The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective. Kuba-tlen wrote: Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows how to easily dry ethanol
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Howdy Tom, I am surprised that the method works at all. There is a fundamental problem with the pKa's of ethanol and methanol. the equilibrium KOH + EtOH -- KOEt + H2O favors the left side of the equasion whereas for methanol KOH + MeOH --- KOMe + H2O favors the right side. The only way I know it would work is if you generate the KOEt via an alternative route as I suggested before. Use K, KH, or dry the ethoxide mixture via azotropic distillation. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob, I use density to determine the purity of the ethanol and a mass balance to check on my 3A regeneration technique. I have a fairly good Metler balance (PR 203) that reads to the third decimal place so should be accurate to the second. The procedure I'm trying to duplicate is the one on JTF. *Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel* FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996 For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627 University of Idaho, College of Agriculture, the University of Idaho. Is another method more reliable? Tom Irwin *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:17:27 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried? and 2. what procedure are you using for bioD from ethanol? Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob and all, I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it. Tom Irwin *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] javascript:kh6k0(new,[EMAIL PROTECTED])] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide: K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2 KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2 (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved) or for someone with good laboratory skills: combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion. The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective. Kuba-tlen wrote: Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows how to easily dry ethanol? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hi Ken, Yes, I've read that but I'm trying to avoid using anything petro based. Yeah, I know I'm being a purist but I have some spare time. Thanks, Tom From: Ken Provost [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:06:46 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method--- Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I'm still working on it. You probly know this already, but adding even 10-15%methanol to the anhydrous ethanol makes the reactiongo markedly better.-K__ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hi Bob,
I use density to determine the purity of the ethanol and a mass balance to check on my 3A regeneration technique. I have a fairly good Metler balance (PR 203) that reads to the third decimal place so should be accurate to the second. The procedure I'm trying to duplicate is the one on JTF.
Ethyl Ester Process Scale-up and Biodegradability of Biodiesel"
FINAL REPORT, No. 303, November 1996For the United States Department of Agriculture, Cooperative State Research Service, Cooperative Agreement No. 93-COOP-1-8627University of Idaho, College of Agriculture, the University of Idaho.
Is another method more reliable?
Tom Irwin
From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:17:27 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol methodTom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried? and 2. what procedure are you using for bioD from ethanol?Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob and all, I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it. Tom Irwin *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide: K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2 KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2 (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved) or for someone with good laboratory skills: combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion. The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective.Kuba-tlen wrote: Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows how to easily dry ethanol? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob "Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","Biofuel@sustainablelists.org")> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 9/7/2005-- Bob Allenhttp://ozarker.org/bob"Science is what we have learned about how to keepfrom fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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[Biofuel] ethanol method
Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows how to easily dry ethanol? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide: K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2 KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2 (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved) or for someone with good laboratory skills: combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion. The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective. Kuba-tlen wrote: Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows how to easily dry ethanol? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hi Bob and all, I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it. Tom Irwin From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol methodIt is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide:K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2(don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved)or for someone with good laboratory skills:combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion.The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective.Kuba-tlen wrote: Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows how to easily dry ethanol? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allenhttp://ozarker.org/bob"Science is what we have learned about how to keepfrom fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried? and 2. what procedure are you using for bioD from ethanol? Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob and all, I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it. Tom Irwin *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:23:08 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method It is not easy, due to the fact that ethoxide, can't be made by the combination of sodium or potassium hydroxide and ethanol, as one does with base plus methanol to form methoxide. It can be done however via alternative ways of making the ethoxide: K + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + 1/2 H2 KH + EtOH --- K(+) (-)OEt + H2 (don't try this at home- wildly flammable materials involved) or for someone with good laboratory skills: combine EtOH (absolute) + KOH, then distill off 95% Ethanol/5% water azeotrope to remove water, shifting the equilibrium to form the ethoxide ion. The problem is that you remove a lot of ethanol to get a small amt of water out. (there are ways to recover absolute ethanol via a ternary azeotrope, but I seriously doubt if it is either cost or energy effective. Kuba-tlen wrote: Does anybody know how to do a biofuel usin ethanol? I mean 92% ethanol, not dry ethanol. I've read that it is possible. O maybe somebody knows how to easily dry ethanol? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org javascript:kh6k0(new,Biofuel@sustainablelists.org) http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 9/7/2005 -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
--- Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I'm still working on it. You probly know this already, but adding even 10-15% methanol to the anhydrous ethanol makes the reaction go markedly better. -K __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] ethanol method
Hi all, I thought we can dry up alkohol using CaO or Zeolite. Is it true ? So what's wrong with that method ? And by using CaO / Zeolite, is it possible to dry alkohol 70% v/v to 99% v/v ? Thank You -daniel On 9/16/05, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom, two questions, 1. how do you know the ethanol is being dried?and 2. what procedure are youusing for bioD from ethanol?Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Bob and all, I seem to be having fairly good success drying 95% ethanol with 3A molecular sieve. I still have horrible problems making BioD with 100% ethanol (purchased)but I´m still working on it. Tom Irwin ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
