On 01/09/2013 03:05 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
My idea of dealing with this complex situation is to:
This all sounds nice but has it been done on a scale that OSM needs it
to work? Are there large projects that have this kind of organization
that you describe?
There are dozens of large open
Am 09.01.2013 10:42, schrieb Paweł Paprota:
On 01/09/2013 03:05 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
My idea of dealing with this complex situation is to:
This all sounds nice but has it been done on a scale that OSM needs it
to work? Are there large projects that have this kind of organization
that you
On 01/09/2013 11:17 AM, Peter Wendorff wrote:
OpenOffice, now part of Apache, is well known, sure - but I think,
still more people know Microsoft Office than OpenOffice.
I don't think ASF would be happy with you reducing them to OpenOffice
:-) They have over a hundred of well-known projects
Am 09.01.2013 11:53, schrieb Paweł Paprota:
On 01/09/2013 11:17 AM, Peter Wendorff wrote:
OpenOffice, now part of Apache, is well known, sure - but I think,
still more people know Microsoft Office than OpenOffice.
I don't think ASF would be happy with you reducing them to OpenOffice
:-) They
On 01/09/2013 12:20 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote:
Communication professionals IMHO most often sound like marketing.
I did not mean communication professionals but giving more resources to
the OSMF's Communication Working Group or similar initiatives. Posting a
tweet or a blog post now and then
On Jan 9, 2013, at 4:26 AM, Paweł Paprota wrote:
On 01/09/2013 12:20 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote:
Communication professionals IMHO most often sound like marketing.
I did not mean communication professionals but giving more resources to
the OSMF's Communication Working Group or similar
Hi Frederik,
I basically agree with everything that Jeff wrote in reply to your
e-mail so I won't reiterate the same points.
One thing to note - look at the numbers: between 2010 and today, the
number of users doubled and in the same period the number of active
contributors did not change
On 01/07/2013 11:32 PM, Johan C wrote:
The Wikimedia Foundation launched a strategic planning process in
2009: http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page which, in 2010,
resulted in a collaborative vision for the movement till 2015.
Thanks for this link, I have not seen this before... it's
Hi,
On 01/08/2013 06:08 AM, Jeff Meyer wrote:
Also, almost none of the observations are supported by data.
Can you provide any?
Frankly, I'm surprised that you should ask. The first couple of
paragraphs in my message are essentially describing undisputable facts
(naming companies that have
Dear Jeff,
have you ever though about organizing a market-wide vote whether Pepsi Coke
or Coca Coke is preferred? And put up a vision that Coke A shall finally
surrender?
Not?
Please just step back for a moment and take into account to possibility that
OSM is more like a market and less like
Paweł Paprota wrote:
The simple fact is that some of the improvements won't ever be
implemented without people working full time on it (look at the Top
Ten Task list to get some idea). How do you propose to solve this
problem without funding people to develop them?
Complete disarming
Hi,
On 01/08/2013 10:14 AM, Paweł Paprota wrote:
What does that say to you? For me it's a clear signal that there is
great interest in OSM but somehow OSM is failing most of those
interested. Welcome Working Group is a good way to find why but I think
it's pretty obvious when you look what OSM
Hi Roland,
Mapnik and all the other tools you mentioned have all been developed
without a strategic vision and without formal permission from
whomever
Because they are single-purpose libraries that don't really need any
strategic vision other than do we use XML/CSS/C/C++ for this decisions.
It has been said that many people sign up to OSM because they believe
they'll have advanced user features (more maps? your own map style?
whatever). Without any research into this, you cannot conclude that
those who sign up would have been mappers if only our web interface
was more like
Dear Pawel,
And that's why TTT list moves so slowly.
Please tell people the truth, you actively contribute to impede the Top Ten
Tasks. Let's take a look at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks#Clickable_POIs_on_the_frontpage
Hi,
On 01/08/2013 12:02 PM, Paweł Paprota wrote:
Providing a modern, well-integrated and usable main website for OSM
is a great challenge I would like to take part in. If you don't think
this is a good goal for the community then that's fine, after all
it's an open community so everyone can
2013/1/8 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
That is exactly the approach that I would recommend if someone were to ask
me how to move forward - have a small discussion if you want but
essentially, just build the damn thing, or at least a prototype for people
to play with, and get people
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr wrote:
2013/1/8 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
That is exactly the approach that I would recommend if someone were to ask
me how to move forward - have a small discussion if you want but
essentially, just build the
On 01/08/2013 01:16 PM, Roland Olbricht wrote:
Please tell people the truth, you actively contribute to impede the
Top Ten Tasks. Let's take a look at
If you think that this solution (Overpass popup) would be suitable for
the main website, why don't you just develop it and propose the merge
(...)
What you describe sounds good in theory (ecosystem) but in practice it
does not work that way. You can't just pick and choose some cool
projects and integrate them into the main site. Software (in particular,
open source software) is not a puzzle that can be easily thrown together
and
Hi Richard,
I just came back from a few hours of skiing, full of enthusiasm to
continue my work on OWL and interested how the discussion in this thread
evolved and what do I see? Accusations of sabotage thrown at me...
So basically - I think I start to understand what you said.
Paweł
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 2:00 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
what kind of data would you want to see?
Data supported by numbers, external studies, some employment of the
scientific method that include evaluation of alternatives or the absence of
what has been done, rather than long
Paweł -
Please do not be discouraged by the voice of one person delivering an
ad-hominem attack.
There are plenty of people - including myself - who are excited by your
sabotage of OSM efforts through OWL. Where can I send the dynamite?
I encourage others who are supportive of your efforts to
Hi Jeff,
On 01/08/2013 07:48 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote:
Paweł -
Please do not be discouraged by the voice of one person delivering
an ad-hominem attack.
There are plenty of people - including myself - who are excited by
your sabotage of OSM efforts through OWL. Where can I send the
dynamite?
I
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
A bit off-topic but this sentence from Clifford's footer really stuck
with me.
Maps with a human touch - I like that, perhaps it could be more widely
used as a OSM slogan :-)
Paweł
___
talk mailing list
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 6:06 PM, Paweł Paprota ppa...@fastmail.fm wrote:
(...)
What you describe sounds good in theory (ecosystem) but in practice it
does not work that way. You can't just pick and choose some cool
projects and integrate them into the main site.
it's possible - and it's
Now take this Linux methaphor and apply it to OSM and its main
website. In my time that I spent following Rails Port and in
general main website development (about 6 months) I have seen 2
maybe 3 people writing major pieces of code for Rails Port, some of
those pieces have been rejected from
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Paweł Paprota ppa...@fastmail.fm wrote:
Sure, that's always good but note that another thread about OSM's future
ends in basically no conclusion. Or rather the conclusion seems to be
that all is fine and the future is secured with the current approach.
I've
Dear Jeff,
Has a decision been made that that *is* the routing engine that will be
added to OSM? If so, great. I look forward to it. Has that been publicized
in the community?
Please have a look into the wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks#Routing_frontend
The demonstration
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Paweł Paprota ppa...@fastmail.fm wrote:
Ideally people from the ecosystem would be willing to write some code to
integrate their cool projects into the main site. That is clearly not
happening.
sure, ideally. it doesn't happen often and there are a wide range of
On 01/08/2013 08:32 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
I will develop a survey with the help of anyone that wishes to
contribute.
That's a potentially good initiative but I would be careful so that it
does not degenerate into another kind of todo or wishlist, like this:
Dear Pawel,
EWG meetings are one-hour sessions where random people like me can say
stuff. It's not the greatest way to discuss major features like
clickable POI's - there is simply no time. So a short -1 to describe
someone's months of work can be hurtful - I know I would be hurt if that
was
Dear Matt,
Ideally people from the ecosystem would be willing to write some code to
integrate their cool projects into the main site. That is clearly not
happening.
sure, ideally. it doesn't happen often and there are a wide range of
reasons for it, often simply that integration into
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de wrote:
Dear Matt,
Ideally people from the ecosystem would be willing to write some code to
integrate their cool projects into the main site. That is clearly not
happening.
sure, ideally. it doesn't happen often and
+ 1 to the ideas by Clifford and Pawel. I took another look at
http://osmstats.altogetherlost.com/index.php?item=countries . Yesterdays
edits are done by 2.5K.members, of which almost a quarter made edits in
Germany. For a big country like the US: 176 members did an edit there
yesterday. I
Jeff,
On 08.01.2013 19:22, Jeff Meyer wrote:
what kind of data would you want to see?
Data supported by numbers, external studies, some employment of the
scientific method that include evaluation of alternatives or the absence
of what has been done, rather than long speculations in email.
Hi Pawel,
On 08.01.2013 21:00, Paweł Paprota wrote:
there does not seem to be much momentum yet for
doing stuff like WikiMedia. Looking at their approach really shows how
more mature (although not always right - all those formal processes,
ewww) they are.
It will be an interesting challenge
Pawel,
On 08.01.2013 20:20, Paweł Paprota wrote:
Sure, that's always good but note that another thread about OSM's future
ends in basically no conclusion. Or rather the conclusion seems to be
that all is fine and the future is secured with the current approach.
You are a software engineer.
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
I think that many suggestions would receive a much warmer welcome if they
were worded more like a call to action and less as a complaint.
Compare:
Hey folks, I've been thinking it would be great if there was a way to
Richard Fairhurst writes:
Something has gone wrong with the OSM community and I wish I knew how to fix
it. Writing code for OSM has become a really thankless, unpleasant business.
Thanks! (that's one less thankless).
But really, why bother? You'll only get crap thrown at you for doing
Hello Clifford,
Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of next
level that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with that.
It seems to me that OSM needs a full time staff that can work
2013/1/7 Paweł Paprota ppa...@fastmail.fm:
Hello Clifford,
Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of next
level that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with that.
OSM growth is
Am 07.01.2013 08:22, schrieb Jo:
Maybe the home page should not have a map on it (it's only a sample of
what is in the database anyway, which will always be lacking some
feature). Instead it could have links to openlinkmap.org
http://openlinkmap.org/ (which is what you seem to want),
I agree. We have so much good data, we just need to improve the map
interface so more people come to OSM first.
My friend Jeff Meyer just commented the other day that he wondered why we
don't have an easy way for businesses to add their establishments to OSM. I
know that Yahoo and Bing have it.
Oh, sure... drag me into the fray.
In general, I agree with Paweł, Hans, and Cliff - there are a variety of
services we could offer on the front page of openstreetmap.org that would
make visiting it a much more rich experience and more inviting to newer
users.
For example, I'd like to use OSM
.
Pierre
De : Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
À :
Cc : Talk Openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org
Envoyé le : Lundi 7 janvier 2013 12h20
Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look
I agree. We have so much good data, we just need to improve the map
...@snowandsnow.us
*À :*
*Cc :* Talk Openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org
*Envoyé le :* Lundi 7 janvier 2013 12h20
*Objet :* Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look
I agree. We have so much good data, we just need to improve the map
interface so more people come to OSM first.
My friend Jeff Meyer
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.uswrote:
I fully concur that OSM Foundation needs to start a vision and strategy
for the future. How do we get their attention? In this instance I don't
believe we should lead from the rear. We need the leadership that the
Hi,
On 07.01.2013 23:32, Johan C wrote:
In analogy, I would like to see the OSM Foundation to start such a
process with the OSM community and others outside the community. And
once there's a vision and a strategy for 2020, money might/will be
needed to carry out the strategy.
There's lots of
On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:
Nope. It's just us. All of us. What do the Foundation (us) need to do
to make you (us) feel like it is okay for you (us) to build this vision and
act on it? Join the OSMF. Serve on a Working Group or two. Lend the
Frederik - thanks for the detailed reply. I fear that many of the
observations - as you note - can be arguments to the opposite of those
being made. Also, almost none of the observations are supported by data.
Can you provide any?
I also find that many of the arguments in your mail are contrary
I've been a mapper for just a short while. A little over 1 and a half. I'm
surprised how much I like mapping in OSM. There is a real empowerment. For
example, at our last mapping party, I met the mayor of the town we held the
meetup. He was getting ready to kick of their Centennial celebration. I
Maybe the home page should not have a map on it (it's only a sample of what
is in the database anyway, which will always be lacking some feature).
Instead it could have links to openlinkmap.org (which is what you seem to
want), hikebikemap.de, http://demo.3liz.com/osmtransport/ and many more
fine
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